They absolutely should be better trained for these situations.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Police kill unarmed black man in California.
- Thread starter Beefy
- Start date
- Status
They absolutely should be better trained for these situations.
BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
Junior Member
I can't remember where I heard it from but I think the saying goes: "White supremacist are on edge around black people because they know that if the same horrible things happened to them, they would have burned down the country by now and they don't know if today is the day we decide to do it." or something like taht. Makes sense to me.
PrivateWHudson
Member
What makes him "potentially armed"? Police approach people all of the time without assuming they are armed.
I don't fault the officers for firing, they're not superhuman, no one could tell the difference in that split second.
I DO fault them for escalating the situation from the very beginning, as cops, they should be doing the exact opposite. Drawing your weapon from the beginning is stupid as fuck.
I DO fault them for escalating the situation from the very beginning, as cops, they should be doing the exact opposite. Drawing your weapon from the beginning is stupid as fuck.
I think he's talking about the pocket thing.
Yeah, it fucking sucks. But it's not like Americans would ever agree to a nationwide collection of guns by the government, so I don't see it ever getting better tbh.
Mammoth Jones
Member
Let's not pretend there aren't instances of cops dealing w/ far more dangerous suspects and taking them in w/o killing them.
Identify the object in the suspects hands before discharging your weapon?
Which is easier said than done. In the time it may take to identify an object if it *is* a firearm....they may have time to discharge it.
Identify the object in the suspects hands before discharging your weapon?
Which is easier said than done. In the time it may take to identify an object if it *is* a firearm....they may have time to discharge it.
This is not "let's assume everyone is going to kill us", the suspect was reported to act very odd and then refused pulling his conceiled hands out multiple times. That is more than enough to constitute a threat, so of course you pull out your gun.
Unfortunately we don't have superhuman police officers who can clearly identify an object someone pulls out of his pocket and aims it at you within a split/second.
The earlier reports of his odd behaviour + his continued refusal to show his pocket-conceiled hands (+ I'd imagine the general circumstance of how many guns there are in the US) make it a serious threat.
Personally, I take police "reports" with a gigantic grain of salt. I know in this instance, it looked like he was pointing a "gun" at them, but I don't understand why discharging your firearm is standard procedure. It shouldn't be ok for officers to shoot every god damn suspect they come across.
The call came in that a black man was walking in traffic and not acting like himself. That should have been clue number one that they were probably dealing with someone with a mental health issue. Maybe get the beanbag gun and traders out first.
I don't get it. A man can shoot up a church and murder 9 people, and people are so quick to cry, "Oh boy, mental illness sure is out of control! That boy needs help!" But an unarmed man walking in traffic showing clear displays of mental distress gets shot to death? It's absurd. Cops are the professionals here. I have family and friends that are police officers, and last I remember, they had to go through pretty rigorous training of all kinds before they earned their badge and gun.
I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but at this point, it's an epidemic that cops are trigger happy, especially when a minority is involved. The officers looked pretty close to the guy. They couldn't see that it wasn't a gun being pointed at them from that distance? Why didn't the other officer ready his taser?
Sometimes I think just the mere sight of a potentially hostile black man petrifies these people. Generations of dehumanizing and demonizing us clearly seems to be doing its job. But again, they are officers of the law. Trained to handle all manner of potentially life threatening situations, but it seems like their only response is "shoot to kill." It's sad and frustrating. I've been mainly keeping quiet on the past few shootings, as I'm tired of going through the same song and dance each time. It's clear no one is listening, and thinks this is acceptable behavior, so I guess I don't see what the point of engaging is, but this time I decided to say my piece. Shooting and killing someone should not be the first course of action when you are a trained officer of the law, is what I'm saying.
The call came in that a black man was walking in traffic and not acting like himself. That should have been clue number one that they were probably dealing with someone with a mental health issue. Maybe get the beanbag gun and traders out first.
I don't get it. A man can shoot up a church and murder 9 people, and people are so quick to cry, "Oh boy, mental illness sure is out of control! That boy needs help!" But an unarmed man walking in traffic showing clear displays of mental distress gets shot to death? It's absurd. Cops are the professionals here. I have family and friends that are police officers, and last I remember, they had to go through pretty rigorous training of all kinds before they earned their badge and gun.
I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but at this point, it's an epidemic that cops are trigger happy, especially when a minority is involved. The officers looked pretty close to the guy. They couldn't see that it wasn't a gun being pointed at them from that distance? Why didn't the other officer ready his taser?
Sometimes I think just the mere sight of a potentially hostile black man petrifies these people. Generations of dehumanizing and demonizing us clearly seems to be doing its job. But again, they are officers of the law. Trained to handle all manner of potentially life threatening situations, but it seems like their only response is "shoot to kill." It's sad and frustrating. I've been mainly keeping quiet on the past few shootings, as I'm tired of going through the same song and dance each time. It's clear no one is listening, and thinks this is acceptable behavior, so I guess I don't see what the point of engaging is, but this time I decided to say my piece. Shooting and killing someone should not be the first course of action when you are a trained officer of the law, is what I'm saying.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
"Protect and serve"?
Kill or detain.
Kill or detain.
Mammoth Jones
Member
I apparently linked to 7 superhuman officers able to take in White subjects w/o killing them.
ratcliffja
Member
This is very true. If people really respected police officers, they would be for gun control to make their jobs easier.
Mattlikewhoa
Member
Sadly this is too damn true...
You make it sound like they just rolled up guns blazing and shot him. The officer did not pull out his gun when he arrived at the scene, he asked the suspect multiple times to cooperate and pull out his hands, which he refused. They didn't shoot him because they just felt like it, but because he was baiting them into suicide by cop.
In regards to beanbag guns, are those effective or do they also have a "fail chance" like Tasers?
I didn't see your edit before you made it and from what I can tell first "usuncut.com" doesn't exactly sound unbiased and second those are anecdotes. There will also be similar anecdotes for black suspects. So unless you can present a statistic that shows police standoffs with white suspects end with targets shot unproportionally less often than with black suspects, I'm afraid that is just conjecture and emotional appeal.
BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
Junior Member
Do we have statistics on how many times cops open fire at a suspect and he survives?
Gaf only posts the fatal shootings so the feeling is skewed but it seems like there is a problem with shooting itself, where cops shoot to kill, not to disable the suspect. Not taking the escalation of the situation into account, as it's a different can of worms.
Gaf only posts the fatal shootings so the feeling is skewed but it seems like there is a problem with shooting itself, where cops shoot to kill, not to disable the suspect. Not taking the escalation of the situation into account, as it's a different can of worms.
Going by the picture, he's got something pointed at one of them...whatever it was.
mrhyderager
Member
Preparedness, I'd say. If someone has their hand in their pocket and are acting erratically, you would prepare to defend yourself - and yes, I mean literally you would do the same.
I think the police of this country need to be reformed. That said, this situation in particular doesn't play out much better regardless of the situation. If the officer hadn't drawn his weapon and the man DID have a gun, pulled it and shot, this would be a dead cop instead. You can't train against that.
The only other option we've got here is to disarm the police force entirely. No more civilian casualties, but a hell of a lot more police dying. I just have trouble finding the alternative, even as I can recognize there needs to be one.
People seem to be unjustly upset with the police in the situation, but unfortunately it seems like they had no choice. How are they supposed to be "properly trained" for someone refusing to reveal their hands while they're clearly concealing something in their pockets? Law enforcement in the US is fucked today, no doubt, but this is not in the same vain as other horrible police situations.
BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
Junior Member
you don't shoot to "disable". that's not what guns are for.
No it shouldn't, at times police are baited into these situation and put themselves in a bad spot where they "feel" the need to resort to deadly force. So very, very sad and unnecessary.
That's exactly what they should do.
Not to mention both cops were likely wearing Kevlar, which would stop pretty much any handgun caliber round fired at their torso. Plus the situation was 2 v 1; if he did hit one officer, the second could neutralize him.
Or how about, instead of immediately drawing on a man who showed no signs of aggression, they talk to him like a human being and find out what might be troubling him?
When all you train in is using hammers, every problem looks like a nail.
Ziltoidia 9
Member
You would think Tasers would have ended suicide by cop for someone, especially if they're unarmed.
I'd rather have a more substantial answer.
If someone has a hand in their pocket and is acting erratically the police should probably be out of range and try to de-escalate the situation and/or use non-lethal means of stopping the situation.
If he DID have a gun he was probably completely untrained, a bad shot, and, again, the police should be out of decent range so hopefully likely not a dead cop... plus they should be wearing bullet proof vests. People generally aren't as good as old western movies make them out to be with guns.
And you can absolutely train for identifying objects and trigger discipline in cops. Like, abso-fucking-lutely you can.
This falls apart for me because you're comparing me and a police officer and coming to the conclusion that a man who is not trained for these types of situations (me) would respond the same way as a person who has (the police officer).
Sorry but that is insane. It is not a police officer's job to take a bullet and die. And again, "no signs of aggression" - either you didn't read the article or are being purposefully obtuse. Someone who has been reported as behaving very off and has his hands in his pockets and refuses to cooperate is a threat, end of story. A civilian life is not worth more than a police officer's life.
Because if you take this very same situation but have the suspect actually be armed the result would be two dead police officers.
A police officer's life isn't worth more than a civilian's either. But since they are here to serve us, they should be treating our lives better.
And no, that person isn't a threat. To view them as such when they haven't even threatened anybody, they're behaving oddly for any number of reasons, is just dangerous (as we see here) and counterproductive to actually helping citizens.
Moltisanti
Member
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/...l-mentally-ill-black-man-160928065635824.html
a few of witness are saying he had a seizure prior to the shooting. some are also saying he was unarmed with his hands up.
and as usual if u have a still frame of the incident, WHERE'S THE VIDEO.
a few of witness are saying he had a seizure prior to the shooting. some are also saying he was unarmed with his hands up.
and as usual if u have a still frame of the incident, WHERE'S THE VIDEO.
Jesus do people actually think this? That cops should let people shoot them? What the fuck?
Ryzaki009
Member
Yeah
But he wasn't armed.
That's the point.
If they approached an armed man with guns drawn I wouldn't be saying a peep. Or if they had been responding to a call about an armed man (even if he was later found not to have a weapon). But that's not what happened.
They came weapons out. To a call about someone that didn't even a weapon.
That's unnecessary especially given all the "guns aren't disabling devices" rhetoric. So either it's a fatal device and shouldn't be used lightly and they're intending to kill someone with it (whether in self defense or defense of someone else) or they're incompetent.
We know that because we read a report afterwards. Police officers can not read the future.
Now you are just making shit up. Read the damn report.
All the training in the world would have still led to an officer retaliating against someone making the exact motions of shooting a gun. It's survival instinct. You can't override that fear that you're about to die and the powerful urge to protect yourself when someone is erratic and very abruptly gestures to blow your head off.
So the first officer asked him to take his hands out of his pocket and follow some basic commands, refusing to do so while phasing around, as the other officer arrive on scene, the first pulls out his gun in fear of a concealed weapon? while the other officers prepares to deploy a taser. While the other officer is about to deploy his taser the male pulls out a object from his pocket, holding it like a gun, taking a stance and pointing it at the cop with his pistol already out, in which both him and the LTL guy react by shooting and tasering at the same time.
Have I got that right?
Either suicide by cop or one of many mental illness persons killed by cops because US can't seem to pick up and provide services for those who need it at all before we even get this far.
That's not saying US police force don't need better training, but the image provided so far, I don't see how he wouldn't react like that under the current circumstances and lack of proper training. Maybe not even better training could prevent this current circumstance.
Have I got that right?
Either suicide by cop or one of many mental illness persons killed by cops because US can't seem to pick up and provide services for those who need it at all before we even get this far.
That's not saying US police force don't need better training, but the image provided so far, I don't see how he wouldn't react like that under the current circumstances and lack of proper training. Maybe not even better training could prevent this current circumstance.
According to the report the first officer pulled out his gun to cover his colleague advancing with the Taser.
Ryzaki009
Member
They don't have to. There wasn't a gun. They weren't a called for violent behavior. He wasn't acting violent. Hands in pocket is not violent or threatening and if they're so afraid they should get another profession.
Edit 2: Ugh completely read it fine you're right. Meh. Looks like she shouldn't have called the cops to begin with. Not sure why people call them in these scenarios. It's never a good idea.
MightyHedgehog
Member
I find it impossible to be satisfied with merely taking the police at their word when so many instances of bad judgment or flat out homicidal intent have been revealed over the last few years of everyone having cameras. Seems an awful lot like another case of cops not properly deescalating a situation with mentally ill folks...especially minorities...and rushing right into lethal force. Bring on the body cam footage and eyewitness testimonies.
If you call FD, and they deem it too dangerous they're going to call for a unit to help.
If you're going to shoot someone then you aim for center mass. Shooting to disable isn't viable outside of films.
It's also not what the issue is actually about with regards to police shootings.
*edit* Read your edit, nvm.
The fuck are you talking about. Of course you can train out instincts. That's the point of training. I mean sure, it's never going to be 100%, but you can definitely reduce instincts taking control. Firefighters, police officers, and military personnel all do it.
That's how I see it, too. I can't see how any training could have prevented this from happening. They probably knew the guy was mentally ill, and that put them on higher guard (as it should, given they weren't able to see his hands).
NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
The problem with mental illness is you can't diagnosis that during a stop. Nobody can.
If you want to put a standard on police that they should be able to diagnosis mental illness along a broad spectrum you're asking too much.
Sad situation, but that pic makes it look like they didn't have much choice.
If you want to put a standard on police that they should be able to diagnosis mental illness along a broad spectrum you're asking too much.
Sad situation, but that pic makes it look like they didn't have much choice.
Guy was working on deploying a taser as he pointed the object as displayed, but even tasering a person holding a gun like that could "force" him to pull the trigger I guess, due to muscle contractions. So even that might be dangerous that close.
...because he pulled out the object when the second officer (with the taser) was getting into reach.
Is this normal for neogaf that nobody actually reads the OP/first few posts and just assumes stuff instead? :/
- Status