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[Makai]

Fox Business is doing another debate Jan 14

 

[pigeon]

Yes, I know. I think Bertram's argument about minorities is terrible. What I'm saying is as a separate argument is that a) if you want to vote in the primaries for the most electable candidate, and b) you suppose that more Democrats will refuse to vote Clinton than Sanders and the amount of Republicans and independents will remain constant, then logically c) you should vote for Sanders. If you are rejecting this, then you are rejecting either the premise that more Democrats will refuse to vote Clinton than Sanders or the premise that the amount of Republican/independent voters is constant. Most people here aren't rejecting the last one, they're saying "It's a fucking disgrace because it might lead to Clinton losing", implying they're more worried about the Democratic voter rate than the Republican/independent one. This means there are more Clinton supporters who intend to sit out the election, so railing on at Sanders supporters for something they do less of is inane and hypocritical. The only reason you see them more is because Clinton supporters don't really have to admit they wouldn't vote Sanders because it is highly unlikely he will win.

Sorry, I didn't have a chance to respond to this all day.

I generally think this argument is reasonable and I would certainly argue that there are more people who would vote Democratic for Clinton but not for Sanders than the alternative. That's, like, pretty straightforwardly the implication of the median voter theorem. I'm not sure why anyone in this thread would argue otherwise. That's what electability is all about!

 

[NeoXChaos]

Nate Cohn ‏@Nate_Cohn 15m15 minutes ago
I listened to talk radio for about 4 hours today. They still like Trump, if you were wondering

.

 

[Diablos]

AP was blowing up my phone with like three updates about Trump visiting, and then maybe visiting but did not confirm, Jordan.

 

[Makai]

Barbara Walters to Trump: "Are you a bigot?"

 

[Tarkus]

Ben Carson is a sedated idiot. Too much religion bruh.

 

[User 406]

Trump has lots of Muslim people he works with who agree with him just like he has a hundred black pastors who endorse him.

 

[sangreal]

AP was blowing up my phone with like three updates about Trump visiting, and then maybe visiting but did not confirm, Jordan.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/674382044097449985

Despite my great respect for King Abdullah II, I will not be visiting Jordan at this time. This is in response to the false @AP report.

 

[B-Dubs]

Fox Business is doing another debate Jan 14

I've already got this one if you were wondering. Any word on the moderators or is it the same morons?

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Donald Trump gained 20,000 new followers on twitter in the last 12 hours.

 

[Makai]

I've already got this one if you were wondering. Any word on the moderators or is it the same morons?

:,(

Moderators are not announced. It is held in Charleston three days before the Democrats hold their Charleston debate.

 

[neurosisxeno]

Ben Carson is a sedated idiot. Too much religion bruh.

All of his supporters will inevitably move onto Ted Cruz.

 

[Jack Remington]

This feels like arbitrage. Paul has met the requirements to make the CNN debate and yet he's at 10% Yes on Predictit.

I expect this to blow up in my face.

Not all the polls shown on RCP will count towards CNN's requirements.

 

[Crocodile]

Do people buy the narrative that Trump is trying to self-sabotage himself because actually being President would be too hard/too time consuming and he doesn't actually want to go all the way but his ego/brand won't let him just quit? I've heard some appealing arguments but I don't think I buy it entirely. Worth entertaining or pure nonsense?

Trump is like that final boss that no matter what you do to attack him it makes no dent in his hp. If you cast magic attacks on him, it only heals him.

In those sorts of circumstances, usually you need to use the plot-related Macguffin to break through the bosses defense or make them mortal or whatever. What would the Macguffin be in this circumstance?

 

[Brawndo Addict]

In those sorts of circumstances, usually you need to use the plot-related Macguffin to break through the bosses defense or make them mortal or whatever. What would the Macguffin be in this circumstance?

People voting in the actual primary. If Trump wins Iowa or NH then I'll change my tune, but until then I think his place in the polls just reflects protest opinions/votes and the ridiculous wall-to-wall media coverage he gets.

 

[Orbis Tabula]

Do people buy the narrative that Trump is trying to self-sabotage himself because actually being President would be too hard/too time consuming and he doesn't actually want to go all the way but his ego/brand won't let him just quit? I've heard some appealing arguments but I don't think I buy it entirely. Worth entertaining or pure nonsense?

Pure nonsense. The idea that Trump is being a racist bigot in an attempt to sabotage his run doesn't make any sense. If he really wanted to sabotage himself, he'd go in the opposite direction. Have a stump speech where he says "Black Lives Matter. Christianity is a lie. I'm converting to Islam. Obama was born in America. I endorse Hillary Clinton. Abortion should be legal. Let's repeal the Second Amendment." It would be stupidly easy to sabotage a Republican campaign. The theory that he's just pretending to be a fascist to get support is much easier to buy, if you want to believe he's lying about something.

 

[Cerium]

Wow I love how all the Bernie fans are pledging allegiance to Trump in the poll thread.

 

[120v]

Wow I love how all the Bernie fans are pledging allegiance to Trump in the poll thread.

anything but another clinton. remember how horrible the 90s were

seriously though if some of those people are over 25 or so that's just sad

 

[Black Mamba]

The national spokesperson for Donald Trump’s presidential campaign seemingly saw no difference between law-abiding Muslims and the “insurgents” Trump purports to want to keep out of the US with his proposed ban on Muslim immigration in a heated discussion with CNN’s S.E. Cupp on Tuesday.

“No one’s talking about allowing insurgents,” Cupp said to Katrina Pierson. “You’re talking about not allowing regular Muslims. That’s what you’re talking about. No one’s talking about insurgents.”

“Yes, from Arab nations,” Pierson responded. “You know what? So what? They’re Muslim.”

“So what?” Cupp asked. “That’s not the nation we live in, Katrina.”

“But it is, S.E.,” Pierson countered. “Simply because you have people coming across through the refugee system and the visa system — including the woman that came in San Bernardino on a visa system, as well as some of the 9/11 hijackers. We have to put a pause to figure out how we could better vet these people.”

So what? They’re Muslim.”

So what? They’re Muslim.”

So what? They’re Muslim.”

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

I'm telling you guys Trump has found the best target. The vast majority of Americans have never met or closely know a muslim and the only interaction or knowledge they have of islam is what they see on the news and it's all bad. I would be shocked if this hurt him.

 

[Aaron Strife]

I'm telling you guys Trump has found the best target. The vast majority of Americans have never met or closely know a muslim and the only interaction or knowledge they have of islam is what they see on the news and it's all bad. I would be shocked if this hurt him.

Also judging from OT a lot of the "hurrrr if not sanders then trump" voters don't think he'll go through with it anyway.

Spoiler

I don't think he would either but let's not reward stupidity

 

[Black Mamba]

Wait, Lindsey Graham in an interview said Trump should go to hell?

"He's a race-baiting, xenophobic, religious bigot," Graham told Alisyn Camerota. "He doesn't represent my party. He doesn't represents the values that the men and women who wear the uniform are fighting for. ... He's the ISIL man of the year.

"You know how you make America great again? Tell Donald Trump to go to hell,"

http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/08/politics/lindsey-graham-donald-trump-go-to-hell-ted-cruz/

Wow. How did this not get more play? Poor Graham. Seriously props to him for actually standing up against Trump, unlike that coward Paul Ryan who said he'd still support him for the nomination.

 

[pigeon]

Do people buy the narrative that Trump is trying to self-sabotage himself because actually being President would be too hard/too time consuming and he doesn't actually want to go all the way but his ego/brand won't let him just quit? I've heard some appealing arguments but I don't think I buy it entirely. Worth entertaining or pure nonsense?

As far as I can tell there are a ton of people severely in denial about the idea that, in a country where lots of people hate and fear Muslims, a political candidate would find success by hating and fearing Muslims.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

The media can't just wipe their hands of this either. How much fearmongering have they done over the past 15 years in pursuit of ratings? They knew people like Trump supporters were out there and they were spoon feeding them this stuff.

 

[Black Mamba]

As far as I can tell there are a ton of people severely in denial about the idea that, in a country where lots of people hate and fear Muslims, a political candidate would find success by hating and fearing Muslims.

Yup. Most people don't even notice the muslims that are white or black, etc, too. Even Trump when he mentioned sports heroes.

I'd bet most people don't know Kareem is Muslim. Or many of the athletes people watch every Sunday.

To many people, the only muslim they know are what they see on TV in the news reports so it's not unsurprising that you can tap into this fear.


FWIW, one thing Trump has shown us...or more specifically reminded us, is how easy it is to convince a lot of people to be bigoted towards a group of people. People today often ask "but how could people support the NAZIs at the time?" Or the same of the Japanese to the chinese. Or ourselves to the Japanese, slaves, native americans, etc.

Well, now you're seeing it in real time.

 

[benjipwns]

After checking in on things, I've come to a conclusion.

A lot of people on NeoGAF.com don't have the slightest clue what fascism or Nazism is/was.

Spoiler

probably some form of denial about how much their precious "legitimate" state and political culture already operates in manners resembling fascist ones amirite

 

[ivysaur12]

Poor S.E. Cupp. Her party doesn't even exist anymore.

 

[benjipwns]

The one she imagined never existed.

You could tell that from her first book vs. her stated views.

 

[RastaMentality]

After checking in on things, I've come to a conclusion.

A lot of people on NeoGAF.com don't have the slightest clue what fascism or Nazism is/was.

Spoiler

probably some form of denial about how much their precious "legitimate" state and political culture already operates in manners resembling fascist ones amirite

Which definition of fascism do you largely agree with though?

 

[benjipwns]

il duce

The Fascist conception of the State is all-embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value. Thus understood, Fascism is totalitarian, and the Fascist State—a synthesis and a unit inclusive of all values—interprets, develops, and potentates the whole life of a people.

...everything in the state, nothing against the State, nothing outside the state.

The Fascist State, as a higher and more powerful expression of personality, is a force, but a spiritual one. It sums up all the manifestations of the moral and intellectual life of man. Its functions cannot therefore be limited to those of enforcing order and keeping the peace, as the liberal doctrine had it. It is no mere mechanical device for defining the sphere within which the individual may duly exercise his supposed rights. The Fascist State is an inwardly accepted standard and rule of conduct, a discipline of the whole person; it permeates the will no less than the intellect. It stands for a principle which becomes the central motive of man as a member of civilized society, sinking deep down into his personality; it dwells in the heart of the man of action and of the thinker, of the artist and of the man of science: soul of the soul.

Fascism, in short, is not only a law-giver and a founder of institutions, but an educator and a promoter of spiritual life. It aims at refashioning not only the forms of life but their content - man, his character, and his faith. To achieve this propose it enforces discipline and uses authority, entering into the soul and ruling with undisputed sway. Therefore it has chosen as its emblem the Lictor’s rods, the symbol of unity, strength, and justice.

The Fascist State is, however, a unique and original creation. It is not reactionary but revolutionary, for it anticipates the solution of certain universal problems which have been raised elsewhere, in the political field by the splitting up of parties, the usurpation of power by parliaments, the irresponsibility of assemblies; in the economic field by the increasingly numerous and important functions discharged by trade unions and trade associations with their disputes and ententes, affecting both capital and labor; in the ethical field by the need felt for order, discipline, obedience to the moral dictates of patriotism.

Fascism desires the State to be strong and organic, based on broad foundations of popular support. The Fascist State lays claim to rule in the economic field no less than in others; it makes its action felt throughout the length and breadth of the country by means of its corporative, social, and educational institutions, and all the political, economic, and spiritual forces of the nation, organized in their respective associations, circulate within the State. A State based on millions of individuals who recognize its authority, feel its action, and are ready to serve its ends is not the tyrannical state of a medieval lordling. It has nothing in common with the despotic States existing prior to or subsequent to 1789.

Far from crushing the individual, the Fascist State multiplies his energies, just as in a regiment a soldier is not diminished but multiplied by the number of his fellow soldiers. The Fascist State organizes the nation, but it leaves the individual adequate elbow room. It has curtailed useless or harmful liberties while preserving those which are essential. In such matters the individual cannot be the judge, but the State only.

Fascism reaffirms the State as the true reality of the individual. And if liberty is to be the attribute of the real man, and not of that abstract puppet envisaged by individualistic Liberalism, Fascism is for liberty. And for the only liberty which can be a real thing, the liberty of the State and of the individual within the State. Therefore, for the Fascist, everything is in the State, and nothing human or spiritual exists, much less has value,-outside the State. In this sense Fascism is totalitarian, and the Fascist State, the synthesis and unity of all values, interprets, develops and gives strength to the whole life of the people.

Outside the State there can be neither individuals nor groups.

The man of Fascism is an individual who is nation and fatherland, which is a moral law, binding together individuals and the generations into a tradition and a mission, suppressing the instinct for a life enclosed within the brief round of pleasure in order to restore within duty a higher life free from the limits of time and space: a life in which the individual, through the denial of himself, through the sacrifice of his own private interests, through death itself, realizes that completely spiritual existence in which his value as a man lies.

 

[benjipwns]

Oh god, now "Lindsey Graham is a tolerable Republican" has started just after we seemed to have finally got rid of the Kasich thing.

 

[BertramCooper]

Wow. How did this not get more play? Poor Graham. Seriously props to him for actually standing up against Trump, unlike that coward Paul Ryan who said he'd still support him for the nomination.

Graham is so frustrating because he's very reasonable on most issues. Undoubtedly conservative, but reasonable and pretty good natured.

Then he starts talking about defense and it all goes to hell.

 

[neurosisxeno]

Graham is so frustrating because he's very reasonable on most issues. Undoubtedly conservative, but reasonable and pretty good natured.

Then he starts talking about defense and it all goes to hell.

Except for that time he said if he were elected President he would have the National Guard stationed outside Congress to keep them inside until they passed legislation he liked.

 

[benjipwns]

He also "joked" that "everything that starts with ‘Al’ in the Middle East is bad news." While campaigning for war with Iran.

 

[BertramCooper]

Interview with Cruz over climate change on NPR right now.

It's a doozy.

 

[User 406]

Look, Islam is not a race, so we're totally not being racist, like, at all. It's just that everyone who looks like, y'know, them are Muslims. That's just what Muslims look like, duh. And we wiki'd some stuff about the Quran, so we know they're all inclined to be terrorists. It's just their thugee culture. Muslims who want to be one of the good ones need to pull up their pants merkins burqas and inform us of the whereabouts and activities of everyone else who looks like them. Not racist.

 

[PBY]

So whats going on w/ Rubio's campaign? he was surging, and hes still climbing, but not at the rate I think some expected given his endorsements

 

[Makai]

 

[Makai]

Oh god, now "Lindsey Graham is a tolerable Republican" has started just after we seemed to have finally got rid of the Kasich thing.

They don't pay close attention to politics. Forgive them.

 

[Y2Kev]

anything but another clinton. remember how horrible the 90s were

seriously though if some of those people are over 25 or so that's just sad

I may be blowing hot air but this is why I feel like Clinton pandering to sanders voters is probably not worth it. Then again, I think the Internet is just a loud base of whiny children and most sanders voters are entirely rational middle class adults who just agree more with him than with her at this stage. But goddamn if seeing stuff like oh it's a dynasty, she's slimy, she stands for nothing, etc. make me wonder if there is a really significant portion of Bernie stans that cannot be convinced so why damage general electability to veer left?

Again I think I just have to repeat to myself...INTERNET

 

[Manmademan]

So whats going on w/ Rubio's campaign? he was surging, and hes still climbing, but not at the rate I think some expected given his endorsements

A majority of the base (over 50%) prefers a political outsider. You can blame decades of republicans demonizing the concept of government for this.

Endorsements won't matter at all for these people.

 

[HylianTom]

A majority of the base (over 50%) prefers a political outsider. You can blame decades of republicans demonizing the concept of government for this.

Endorsements won't matter at all for these people.

For a lot of these folks, it looks like condemnations coming from typical politicians will count as pseudo-endorsements/anti-endorsements in this political cycle.

If the GOP electorate's mood suddenly changes, we might revert back to the usual rules. But I don't see that happening anytime soon.

 

[PBY]

A majority of the base (over 50%) prefers a political outsider. You can blame decades of republicans demonizing the concept of government for this.

Endorsements won't matter at all for these people.

Sure. But Rubio is technically an outsider.

 

[benjipwns]

I may be blowing hot air but this is why I feel like Clinton pandering to sanders voters is probably not worth it. Then again, I think the Internet is just a loud base of whiny children and most sanders voters are entirely rational middle class adults who just agree more with him than with her at this stage. But goddamn if seeing stuff like oh it's a dynasty, she's slimy, she stands for nothing, etc. make me wonder if there is a really significant portion of Bernie stans that cannot be convinced so why damage general electability to veer left?

Again I think I just have to repeat to myself...INTERNET

The internet just lets you see this in real time.

The "establishments" sat on their hands for Goldwater, McGovern and Carter (1980). Even Reagan only held on because he brought a bunch of them into the fold to show he was "serious" as a candidate. And these were the "adults in the room" with significant party resources under their disposal at the time.

Say what you will for the conservative and progressive cleavages, they've tended to hold their nose far more often than the "mushy/radical center" has. Taft fell in line behind Eisenhower, Goldwater/Reagan fell in line behind Nixon/Ford, McGovern always fell in line, Kennedy's progressives didn't bolt for Anderson it was the Washington establishment parts of Kennedy's campaign, McCain and Romney mostly held onto the conservatives, etc.

People point to Nader, but it wasn't really disaffected Bradley voters going "fuck Gore" or anything like that. Gore lost more support among the "radical center" to W. Bush. There was also some evidence that McCain primary voters made up a disproportionate amount of Nader voters for what traditional models would expect.

This also was the "age of the third party" what with Perot's era having just ended, the Reform Party being on every ballot with millions of dollars and nearly having Donald Trump as its candidate, etc. Clinton fatigue as well.

Not to mention, the Clinton machine, along with the Republican Revolution and time, took a hatchet to the old Democratic establishment.

 

[gaugebozo]

Sure. But Rubio is technically an outsider.

I don't think "technically" is convincing for the GOP base this election. Rubio is someone who's been in government for years. That's the problem.

Edit: the people who are semi-ok with it seem to be split between him and Cruz.

 

[B-Dubs]

Love it.

 

[Fenderputty]

Graham is so frustrating because he's very reasonable on most issues. Undoubtedly conservative, but reasonable and pretty good natured.

Then he starts talking about defense and it all goes to hell.

He voted againt Sandy relief, man. He's an asshole

 

[Diablos]

Wow I love how all the Bernie fans are pledging allegiance to Trump in the poll thread.

Where exactly?

 

[NeoXChaos]

Where exactly?

This:

Idk, I'm a liberal thinker, I believe in progressive ideas, and I can exercise those beliefs in my day to day. I don't have to believe what a republican thinks....


With that said, I do not want another democrat running this country.

So I'll probably just vote for trump

 

[Veritigo_X]

This:

His follow-up post is even better. "I'm a liberal thinker but I don't see the point in fighting racism and oppression. It does nothing to help the economy. Oh btw, I work in the health insurance industry and Obamacare sux." Very liberal.

Calling him a Bernie supporter is probably going too far though, he's a libertarian that would attach himself to literally anyone that is considered an outsider.