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Politico: Bill Perry Is Terrified [of the threat of nuclear weapons]. Why Aren’t You?

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ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
An interesting and long article I wanted to share:

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/01/william-perry-nuclear-weapons-proliferation-214604

William J. Perry is 89 now, at the tail end of one of his generation’s most illustrious careers in national security. By all rights, the former U.S. secretary of Defense, a trained mathematician who served or advised nearly every administration since Eisenhower, should be filling out the remainder of his years in quiet reflection on his achievements. Instead, he has set out on an urgent pilgrimage.

Bill Perry has become, he says with a rueful smile, “a prophet of doom.”

Nuclear bombs are an area of expertise Perry had assumed would be largely obsolete by now, seven decades after Hiroshima, a quarter-century after the fall of the Soviet Union, and in the flickering light of his own life. Instead, nukes are suddenly—insanely, by Perry’s estimate—once again a contemporary nightmare, and an emphatically ascendant one. At the dawn of 2017, there is a Russian president making bellicose boasts about his modernized arsenal. There is an American president-elect who breezily free-associates on Twitter about starting a new nuclear arms race. Decades of cooperation between the two nations on arms control is nearly at a standstill. And, unlike the original Cold War, this time there is a world of busy fanatics excited by the prospect of a planet with more bombs—people who have already demonstrated the desire to slaughter many thousands of people in an instant, and are zealously pursuing ever more deadly means to do so.

And there’s one other difference from the Cold War: Americans no longer think about the threat every day.

Nuclear war isn’t the subtext of popular movies, or novels; disarmament has fallen far from the top of the policy priority list. The largest upcoming generation, the millennials, were raised in a time when the problem felt largely solved, and it’s easy for them to imagine it’s still quietly fading into history. The problem is, it’s no longer fading. “Today, the danger of some sort of a nuclear catastrophe is greater than it was during the Cold War,” Perry said in an interview in his Stanford office, “and most people are blissfully unaware of this danger.”

It is a turn of events that has an old man newly obsessed with a question: Why isn’t everyone as terrified as he is?

Perry’s hypothesis for the disconnect is that much of the population, especially that rising portion with no clear memories of the first Cold War, is suffering from a deficit of comprehension. Even a single nuclear explosion in a major city would represent an abrupt and possibly irreversible turn in modern life, upending the global economy, forcing every open society to suspend traditional liberties and remake itself into a security state. “The political, economic and social consequences are beyond what people understand,” Perry says. And yet many people place this scenario in roughly the same category as the meteor strike that supposedly wiped out the dinosaurs—frightening, to be sure, but something of an abstraction.

One of the nightmare scenarios Perry invokes most often is designed to roust policymakers who live and work in the nation’s capital. The terrorists would need enriched uranium. Due to the elaborate and highly industrial nature of production, hard to conceal from surveillance, fissile material is still hard to come by—but, alas, far from impossible. Once it is procured, with help from conspirators in a poorly secured overseas commercial power centrifuge facility, the rest of the plot as Perry imagines it is no great technological or logistical feat. The mechanics of building a crude nuclear device are easily within the reach of well-educated and well-funded militants. The crate would arrive at Dulles International Airport, disguised as agricultural freight. The truck bomb that detonates on Pennsylvania Avenue between the White House and Capitol instantly kills the president, vice president, House speaker, and 80,000 others.

If this particular scenario does not resonate with you, Perry can easily rattle off a long roster of others—a regional war that escalates into a nuclear exchange, a miscalculation between Moscow and Washington, a computer glitch at the exact wrong moment. They are all ilks of the same theme—the dimly understood threat that the science of the 20th century is set to collide with the destructive passions of the 21st.

The Cuban Missile Crisis recounting is one of the dramatic peaks in “My Journey on the Nuclear Brink,” the memoir Perry published last fall. It is a book laced with other close calls—like November 9, 1979, when Perry was awakened in the middle of the night by a watch officer at the North American Aerospace and Defense Command (NORAD) reporting that his computers showed 200 Soviet missiles in flight toward the United States. For a frozen moment, Perry thought: This is it—This is how it ends.

The watch officer soon set him at ease. It was a computer error, and he was calling to see whether Perry, the technology expert, had any explanation. It took a couple days to discover the low-tech answer: Someone had carelessly left a crisis-simulation training tape in the computer. All was well. But what if this blunder had happened in the middle of a real crisis, with leaders in Washington and Moscow already on high alert? The inescapable conclusion was the same as it was in 1962: The world skirting nuclear Armageddon as much by good luck as by skilled crisis management.

Perry wishes more people were familiar with the concept of “expected value.” That is a statistical way of understanding events of very large magnitude that have a low probability. The large magnitude event could be something good, like winning a lottery ticket. Or it could be something bad, like a nuclear bomb exploding. Because the odds of winning the lottery are so low, the rational thing is to save your money and not buy the ticket. As for a nuclear explosion, by Perry’s lights, the consequences are so grave that the rational thing would be for people in the United States and everywhere to be in a state of peak alarm about their vulnerability, and for political debate to be dominated by discussion of how to reduce the risk.

His granddaughter, Lisa Perry, is precisely in the cohort he needs to reach. At first she had some uncomfortable news for her grandfather: Not many in her generation thought much about the issue.

“The more I learned from him about nuclear weapons the more concerned I was that my generation had this massive and dangerous blind spot in our understanding of the world,” she said in an interview. “Nuclear weapons are the biggest public health issue I can think of.”

Perry’s answered, as SecDef19: “Because you were born in the 1990s, you did not experience the daily terror of ‘duck and cover’ drills as my children did. Therefore the appropriate fear of nuclear weapons is not part of your heritage, but the danger is just as real now as it was then. It will be up to your generation to develop the policies to deal with the deadly nuclear legacy that is still very much with us.”

For the former defense secretary, the task now is to finally—belatedly—prove Einstein wrong. The physicist said in 1946: “The unleashed power of the atom has changed everything save our modes of thinking and we thus drift toward unparalleled catastrophe.”

In Perry’s view the only way to avoid it is by directly contemplating catastrophe—and doing so face to face with the world’s largest nuclear power, Russia, as he recently did in a forum in Luxembourg with several like-minded Russians he says are brave enough to speak out about nuclear dangers in the era of Putin.

“We could solve it,” he said. “When you’re a prophet of doom, what keeps you going is not just prophesizing doom but saying there are things we do to avoid that doom. That’s where the optimism is.”
 

ChrisD

Member
Because I have enough worries, stress, anxiety and fear in my life as-is.

Now for the rest of the week I'll have the fear of nuclear death in my mind too, before realizing I should shut it out of my mind since it helps me this much:
 
same reason I don't live in perpetual fear of meteors.

BUT IT COULD HAPPEN!


does-duck-and-cover-really-work.jpg
 

rObit

Banned
Because letting fear of that nature occupy my mind is not productive in any way. It doesn't help me or anyone else.
 

antonz

Member
Really there is a thousand different things that can ruin your life everyday. Eventually you have to just compartmentalize to where things just don't matter.

Nukes are scary and if they were to go flying everyone is fucked but that's out of our control. The United States has been a willing partner in disarmament but our partner Russia has been the opposite. So eventually it leads to people like Trump saying time to grow baby grow
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
If it happens, it happens. Theres not really much i can do about it isnt there? If it happens i hope i get obliterated instantly. If i survive i hope im in a place where its bad enough so i know to just end things myself in the immediate aftermath. Not really interested in laying amidst the rubble for hours on end with my mouth open in hopes to catch whatever roaches i can for sustenance.
 

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
Really there is a thousand different things that can ruin your life everyday. Eventually you have to just compartmentalize to where things just don't matter.

I have enough things to worry about that are in my control that it'd be a waste of time to worry about things that aren't.

Why worry about things I have no control over?

The article makes a connection between a lack of awareness and a lack of public pressure for disarmament policies. I get the impression that this message is overlooked by some in this thread.
 
You guys kinda have control- don't vote in incompetent presidents.

I know most of us here won't but I'm guessing the question is addressing to those who didn't get the memo.
 

samn

Member
The article makes a connection between the lack of awareness and the lack of public pressure for disarmament policies. I get the impression that this message is overlooked by some in this thread.

The replies in this thread are awful. I don't think anyone has bothered to read the article.
 

antonz

Member
The article makes a connection between a lack of awareness and a lack of public pressure for disarmament policies. I get the impression that this message is overlooked by some in this thread.

The United States has been a partner to disarmament for sometime. In fact its been a very lopsided issue in recent decades. The United States has been living up to its agreed upon disarming. Meanwhile Putin has done the opposite.

By next year the United States is only going to have 400 ICBMs in service compared to when we used to have over 1000 in active service. The United States has limited the number of warheads allowed per missile etc. Meanwhile Russia just brought out its newest ICBM that now can hold as many as 24 Warheads.
 
The article makes a connection between a lack of awareness and a lack of public pressure for disarmament policies. I get the impression that this message is overlooked by some in this thread.

I agree that the public should be louder about disarmament, but the simple idea of "why aren't you afraid of nukes" is what I'm responding to.
 
I am afraid. I am a former army officer who used to serve in the NBC division, so I have an idea what a single bomb - or thousands of them - will do.

Our problem is that our leaders grew up in the cold war. But they didn't witness the last big ones. And now the biggest nuclear arsenal is in the hand of an imbecile, someone who will not hesitate to use nuclear weapons on his enemies. And he'll most likely be celebrated as a hero, as a man who did what needed to be done so to speak, by bis followers.

So, from my point of view, it's just a matter of time before the first nuclear bomb since Nagasaki will be used against military or civilian targets. And the United States are the most likely candidate to do so. Which would then send out the message to other official and unofficial nuclear powers that it is basically okay to use nukes (or much cheaper B and C weapons) from now on.

I don't think this will inevitably lead to a full-blown nuclear war. But once they open Pandora's box, it will be hard to close it again.

I start to believe humanity needs a proper global war as catharsis once in a while. But that isn't a good idea this time (if ever). Because like Einstein said when he was asked which weapons will be used in WW3: "I don't know. But I can tell you what they'll use in the fourth. They'll use rocks!"
 
You guys kinda have control- don't vote in incompetent presidents.

I know most of us here won't but I'm guessing the question is addressing to those who didn't get the memo.
That's still not that much control.

We can't control the dumb things a President does once they're in power. We can't control the dumb things our Congressional reps do once they're in power. We can't control the dumb things other peoples' Congressional reps do once they're in power. We can't control the dumb things that government officials of other nations' do while in power.

I mean, sure vote and make your voice heard. But of all things to be worried about in the world, nuclear war is pretty far down the list. I'd be much more concerned about I dunno, the erosion of the environment (which will probably have more of the impact on nuclear warfare's likelihood than anything else).
 

Yamauchi

Banned
The article is decent. The headline is typical Politico yellow journalism shite; so bad, in fact, it almost made me skip the article entirely. It'd be like going up to Medieval European villager and asking him why isn't terrified of the plague. Well, I am, nimwit, but I also have a life to get on with.
 

offtopic

He measures in centimeters
Feels like people are too fixated on the specifics of the thread title. Yes, I'm terrified of the danger of nuclear weapons in the modern political landscape in a similar way that I am terrified of global warming. We aren't powerless...we need to speak with our actions, our voices, our money and our vote.
 

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
Feels like people are too fixated on the specifics of the thread title.

Yeah, I shouldn't have used the article's title verbatim. I feel like many responses are taking this way too much as a personal question, when the main substance of the article is more one of public perception of the actual risks and the resulting prioritisation of the issue in policy making.

I mean...

No nuke ever called me a Nigger

...what do replies like this even mean.
 
Like anyone with even a modicum of physics knowledge, I know that if a nuclear bomb went off I'd likely either be A) too far away for it to matter or B) better off committing suicide as relatively painlessly as possible if the explosion wasnt close enough to do it outright. If multiple bombs went off, it'd probably be a terrible world to live in anyway.

In any case there is nothing I could do that would cause or prevent a terrorist or government using a nuclear weapon, so that bridge will be crossed if it ever comes to it, and absolutely not before.


However hyperbolic statements like
Nuclear weapons are the biggest public health issue I can think of.”
Are so far off the mark it's almost sad. There are far more important problems for public health than nuclear weapons, such as the looming potential loss of antibiotics, for example.
 
...what do replies like this even mean.

Its a reference to Muhammad Ali when he refused his Vietnam draft call and said no Vietcong ever called him the N word.

Edit: Wait I thought you were asking what it meant.

I guess slayven is just being slayven.
 
I went through about a week of panic over this in late November. I was looking at how a nuclear bomb works, the effects of it, studying how far different warheads of differing tonnage would affect my city, prepper bags, etc etc.

Then I got a grip and realized that I can't spend my entire day, every day, worrying about something I have zero control over. Like others have said, if it happens, it happens, and I hope I'm either so far away it doesn't affect me or my family or so close to the initial blast radius that I'm gone in nanoseconds.

That said, even with everything, I still don't think Trump is going to use nukes just to...use them. If only because of his (and others' who influence him) vested business interests in continuing to get richer. Can't make money if nobody's around to spend it. I do however have serious concerns about what he would do in the event of another domestic terrorist attack. I don't feel that it would take much for him to say "Fuck it, never did anything for me anyway" and suddenly most of Northern Africa and the Middle East is missing.
 

Ogodei

Member
There's an interesting question of why they're needed. Rationally, global thermonuclear war is a non-starter. If war is politics by other means, then there would never be a large scale strategic nuclear exchange because the consequences of doing so would zero out any possible gains, unless a nuclear power gained some capability to make sure that a first strike could not be retaliated against (to go sci-fi, imagine something like Goldeneye: a weapon that could cause a technological blackout on your target before you launch your weapons, meaning they wouldn't see it in time to launch a counterstrike).

Limited nuclear exchange is likewise loaded with more costs than benefits. Their use in World War II was a one-time thing because it was so shocking and unprecedented that it scared the Japanese into surrender, and was an example of strategic and not tactical use. Tactical use would presume a doomsday scenario (like Israel's nuclear plan, which is designed to spite anyone who overwhelmed Israel through conventional military strength by salting the earth of the Promised Land), where you're risking immense environmental damage in order to secure a battlefield victory, such that the irradiated area would not be safe for use in the war or immediate postwar period. If you're fighting a war over land, it's probably a good idea to not nuke the land you're fighting for. Even if you're not, the sheer destruction would play hell on your supply chains and logistics.

There's good research out there on the idea that the threat of nuclear war is a deterrent to conventional war, but in this day and age conventional war is its own deterrent; it's costly and messy and often politically unpopular; it's not the tool it once was for politicians to distract people.

The other question of total disarmament is: how would we be sure everyone kept faith? Well, we couldn't be, but it's not like the knowledge of building nukes would be gone from the world. If someone rearmed, the world would know and be able to react accordingly.
 

Game Guru

Member
The problem with this article is that it assumes that Putin or Trump for that matter actually care about what the masses think.
 

Nikodemos

Member
Because I live on the frontline, and if a nuclear exchange were to really happen, I'd be dead in the first 30 minutes of the war. Whether flash-boiled by a 400-degree Celsius heat blast, pulverised by the shockwave or crushed under 50+ tonnes of rubble, my death would be instantaneous. I wouldn't keep living for a few days afterwards to see my skin flake and fall off, or having my radiation-destroyed kidneys exit my body through my anus. I fear pain, not death. What's there to fear about death? It is the cessation of existence, there's nothing inherently dreadful about it. I don't care enough about everybody else to concern myself with what the survivors will experience after my demise.
 
I am kinda afraid it is going to take the consequences of nuclear conflict for people who matter to wake up. Its been so long since a true world wide generation altering conflict that a lot of people have forgotten what that means. So much warped people in power and chest beating right now it seems like its only time for something to happen. The fear of mutually insured destruction is fading away.

The big question is when it will happen and how much damage will be done and what kind of wold will be left afterwords.



Some of those recent comments from Trump make me understand why people buy bunkers.
 

offtopic

He measures in centimeters
Yeah, I shouldn't have used the article's title verbatim. I feel like many responses are taking this way too much as a personal question, when the main substance of the article is more one of public perception of the actual risks and the resulting prioritisation of the issue in policy making.

I mean...



...what do replies like this even mean.

I also wonder what all the "there is nothing I can do about it!" responses mean. Do people feel the same way about global warming or the ongoing massive losses in biodiversity? There are things people can do.
 

Pomerlaw

Member
The United States has been a partner to disarmament for sometime. In fact its been a very lopsided issue in recent decades. The United States has been living up to its agreed upon disarming. Meanwhile Putin has done the opposite.

Not really.

Both countries are still disarming and cutting on the number of nukes under the Start II treaty. Yes Russians are modernizing their arsenals : They want new missiles that can avoid any missile defense systems. That doesn't mean they have more nukes or more powerful nukes. Those old missiles were at the end of their 'useful' life. That has a silverlining : it keeps the deterrence active.

555px-US_and_USSR_nuclear_stockpiles.svg.png


By the way, the US got out of the ABM treaty first.

Not trying to defend Russia here, the propaganda Putin is using (fear) like someone is about to invade Russia is stupid and dangerous, but it works for his ratings.

Nuclear terrorism is something we need to be really aware of. Countries must work together to prevent this from happening.
 

Woo-Fu

Banned
The older you get the better you are at ignoring things you can't do anything about. You're also better at recognizing that tilting at windmills isn't an effective use of your time.
 

Square2015

Member
The threat from N. Korea is real. They are four years away from developing an ICBM that can reach the west coast, and they look determined to use it if the US continues to be "imperialistic" - their words.
 

Dirca

Member
I couldn't care less. Nothing is guaranteed, I may not live to see tomorrow. I won't live my life in fear.
 

RoKKeR

Member
The threat from N. Korea is real. They are four years away from developing an ICBM that can reach the west coast, and they look determined to use it if the US continues to be "imperialistic" - their words.
Hmm. What would they have to gain from this? One attack on the US and their country would be wiped off the face of the earth...

I've always perceived their nuclear program as an attempt to get a seat at the big kids' table, but I'd be happy to be corrected from someone more knowledgeable on the matter.
 

mreddie

Member
US-Russia are on the same side and China would rather do a trade war.

The only serious threats are N. Korea and Iran.

I'm still scared of shit hitting the fan though.
 
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