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[Ratrat]

Logically who else would it appeal to?

Loli is just virtual pedophilia.

People who fantasize about being a child in the situation.
People who get off to weird or taboo material regardless of subject.
People who think 16-17 year olds are fine even though they are underage.
People who insist there is a good story in there.
People with overly broad tastes.

At least I hope so. Or a apparently a lot of people are into incest.

"rape fantasy" ie they actually find the guy sexually attractive, I doubt they fantasise about some random ugly dude in an alleyway.

You should maybe read some before claiming that.

 

[Chariot]

"rape fantasy" ie they actually find the guy sexually attractive, I doubt they fantasise about some random ugly dude in an alleyway.

Some do, actually.

 

[Jazz573]

"rape fantasy" ie they actually find the guy sexually attractive, I doubt they fantasise about some random ugly dude in an alleyway.

What about men fantasizing being raped by a sexually atractive female?

 

[King Gilga]

Are people who watch torture porn movies like Human Centipede violent unstable sadists with homicidal tendencies?

I mean, I wouldn't go that far, but they probably have some issues.

No. Just, no. Also it's not CP, so stop calling it that.

But it is child porn, just because it's drawn or cg doesn't make it not. It's porn, and it involves children, real or fake, it's child porn.

 

[G.ZZZ]

So I am in a circular argument with you loons.

No, because having a rape fantasy isn't the same as a sexual disorder in which you are attracted to prepubescent children which are depicted in drawings of child porn.

Wanting to rape people not a sexual disorder, you heard it on neogaf first.

Did you realize that you can read a story about incest and not be into your sister? Jesus people what is the problem that when we're talking about sexual topics suddendly everyone is so insecure.

 

[Wiktor]

"rape fantasy" ie they actually find the guy sexually attractive, I doubt they fantasise about some random ugly dude in an alleyway.

You think that in real life if rapist is attractive it makes it ok?

 

[Odrion]

Also pedophilia is a paraphilia. Not an orientation but a mental disorder in which you are sexually attracted to an irrational thing ie humans before they undergone puberty. But regardless, it's not a choice or a kinky fetish, quit lying that it is.

 

[Jazz573]

You think that if rapist is attractive it makes it ok?

No. But we're talking about people's fantasies here.

 

[Chariot]

But it is child porn, just because it's drawn or cg doesn't make it not. It's porn, and it involves children, real or fake, it's child porn.

Look, it's important to disdinguish between fiction and reality. Child porn involve actual children that get abused and at least mentally hurt. Fake one? Not so much. There is a difference between snuff and guro eg.

 

[Regulus Tera]

I mean, I wouldn't go that far, but they probably have some issues.

That's the thing, if you start banning things in fiction you have to draw a line somewhere, and what might seem harmless fantasy to one person will appear as grotesque and immoral for another. I don't condone lolicon or torture porn, but I rather not deal with censorship in a medium that has no direct victims.

 

[chronic_archaic]

I mean, I wouldn't go that far, but they probably have some issues.



But it is child porn, just because it's drawn or cg doesn't make it not. It's porn, and it involves children, real or fake, it's child porn.

Root issue of child porn is exploitation of children and not the fact it's child porn dude. A fun thread would be to go down what everyone's sexual desires are - to see just how "fucked up" everybody in this thread probably is based on how things have been going.

 

[Odrion]

No. Just, no. Also it's not CP, so stop calling it that.

Yes it is, drawn child porn is literally by definition porn of a child.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

That's the thing, if you start banning things in fiction you have to draw a line, and what might seem harmless fantasy to one person will appear as grotesque and immoral for another. I don't condone lolicon or torture porn, but I rather not deal with censorship in a medium that has no direct victims.

This is a really good point, start banning stuff and it will get ugly, there's always going to be someone that is disgusted by something others have fantasies about.

There's also the issue of it being subjective as hell, I can see how it can be used for the wrong reasons to screw people in court.

 

[MrHoot]

Yes it is, drawn child porn is literally by definition porn of a child.

By definition: porn of a drawing, not an actual living breathing child

You don't get to make your own to suit your argument

 

[Milamber]

Yes it is, drawn child porn is literally by definition porn of a child.

What if it's described as a 1,000 year old demon?

 

[Jazz573]

What if it's described as a 1,000 year old demon?

Hello there Milamber.

 

[collige]

Whether loli appeals exclusively to IRL pedos or not is irrelevant to whether it should be banned Neil Gaiman sums up my feelings on the issue.

 

[Chariot]

What if it's described as a 1,000 year old demon?

Actually an interesting idea.

Lets take the hyperbole of 1000 years down a notch. Would it be wrong to watch an Little Lupe clip even if she is and was during the filming legally an adult, but looks a lot younger? Thst is somewhat seperate from the main discussion, but interesting nontheless.

 

[Odrion]

Also by shoving a stick into this particular sensitive spot, I've demonstrated how drawn child porn has a negative influence in a community. Now that we have moved on from the "well, if it's an outlet than it's good?" we're seeing people rush to defend it. Literally saying that drawn depictions of children being raped isn't child porn, that people into it aren't pedophiles.

What a crazy double speak, right? Here, in this very game community you have a particular group of crazies spouting this angry nonsense when you push them. Now I ask you this: Wouldn't this be a great smoke screen for a sexual predator?

 

[Crosseyes]

Every time this sort of thread comes up I'm surprised how many people take the 'lol anime avatar pedo' thing seriously. And how much its tolerated by the mods.

 

[Envelope]

Also by shoving a stick into this particular sensitive spot, I've demonstrated how drawn child porn as a negative influence in a community. Now that we have moved on from the "well, if it's an outlet than it's good?" we're seeing people rush to defend it. Literally saying that drawn depictions of children being raped isn't child porn, that people into it aren't pedophiles.

What a crazy double speak, right? Now I ask you this: Wouldn't this be a great smoke screen for a sexual predator?

You haven't demonstrated anything other than your inability to make a cogent argument, actually.

 

[encephalon]

Again, what are the sources that links masturbating to a drawing to peadophilia apart from your own discomfort. We keep assuming that people can't or don't make a difference between a drawing and an actual child.

This is the same argument that so many had against violent video games with a different stroke of paint, where people want to ban said games because it may or may not trigger violent behaviour, who knows, but let's do it anyway. Gamers can't make the difference between virtual violence and real violence after all

Gamers aren't playing violent games to satisfy a malfunctioning fundamental biological imperative that remains one of the strongest motivators of human behavior.

 

[riotous]

People who fantasize about being a child in the situation.
People who get off to weird or taboo material regardless of subject.
People who think 16-17 year olds are fine even though they are underage.
People who insist there is a good story in there.
People with overly broad tastes.

At least I hope so. Or a apparently a lot of people are into incest.

You should maybe read some before claiming that.

But how would that list not also apply to real child porn?

"Hey, I watch child porn.. but only because I fantasize about being a little kid who is raped, so I'm not a pedophile."

I'm honestly just curious how your rational only applies to the drawn variety.

edit: I apologize, looks like Ratrat was merely echoing what other's say.

 

[Odrion]

Gamers aren't playing violent games to satisfy a malfunctioning fundamental biological imperative that remains one of the strongest motivators of human behavior.

Hey now, Pedophilia isn't a mental illness because *drools incessantly*

 

[MarkMclovin]

Drawings can't be CP, they are freaking drawings.

What if it's a drawing of a real photo of child porn? Or a very realist drawing?

Christ, how can anyone think that anything regarding kids + porn/sexual fantasies is ok?

This thread is going to some dark fucking places, man.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

Whether loli appeals exclusively to IRL pedos or not is irrelevant to whether it should be banned Neil Gaiman sums up my feelings on the issue.

Thanks for the link, I really liked this quote:

You ask, What makes it worth defending? and the only answer I can give is this: Freedom to write, freedom to read, freedom to own material that you believe is worth defending means you're going to have to stand up for stuff you don't believe is worth defending, even stuff you find actively distasteful, because laws are big blunt instruments that do not differentiate between what you like and what you don't, because prosecutors are humans and bear grudges and fight for re-election, because one person's obscenity is another person's art.

Because if you don't stand up for the stuff you don't like, when they come for the stuff you do like, you've already lost.

 

[Odrion]

By definition: porn of a drawing, not an actual living breathing child

You don't get to make your own to suit your argument

Hows does this hairsplitting matter at this point?

 

[meltingparappa]

Actually an interesting idea.

Lets take the hyperbole of 1000 years down a notch. Would it be wrong to watch an Little Lupe clip even if she is and was during the filming legally an adult, but looks a lot younger? Thst is somewhat seperate from the main discussion, but interesting nontheless.

Or what if I drew a cartoon of what appeared to be a grown woman engaging in consensual sex, and said JOKES ON YOU, she's only 13!

What if that drawing had hyper realistic amounts of detail.

What if it was a blob with all of two lines to denote genitalia.

What if it was a sentence of text instead of a drawing.

What if it's in a piece of fiction that 501/1000 people would agree has no intention to titillate.

What if it was produced by a survivor of a sex crime themselves?

Which of these are actually one of the worst crimes a human being can commit in a civilized society?

Maybe the line should be drawn at what does direct empirical harm and not something that just feels icky.

 

[Jazz573]

Thanks for the link, I really liked this quote:

Perfect.

 

[zelas]

I support that obvious cases should be banned from being sold or exposed in media. What I'm talking about is doodling on a paper.

I wasnt talking about doodles. I was talking about those who think banning the anime, manga, and gelbooru content originally in question, would lead to a slippery slope that would somehow harm japanese society as a whole. And comments like these that imply illegal depictions should remain solely because they're drawn:

Fuck yeah, censorship panels that make subjective decisions on drawn art usually based on ulterior motives rather than legit reasons. Lets get 1984 on this shit worldwide, I want to live in that society! I have never seen book censorship, art censorship actually be looked back as something that was actually good in hindsight. Banning real CP with real humans harmed is one thing. We could probably pull up classic European art that should be banned based on obscenity laws....oh wait, we have.

 

[Ray Wonder]

I don't think loli hentai is child porn. I think it's creepy as all hell, but I believe that child porn is a crime which has a child victim. I wouldn't really want to associate with anyone who likes that kind of thing, but I don't think they should receive jail time.

 

[Chariot]

Or what if I drew a cartoon of what appeared to be a grown woman engaging in consensual sex, and said JOKES ON YOU, she's only 13!

What if that drawing had hyper realistic amounts of detail.

What if it was a blob with all of two lines to denote genitalia.

What if it was a sentence of text instead of a drawing.

What if it's in a piece of fiction that 501/1000 people would agree has no intention to titillate.

What if it was produced by a survivor of a sex crime themselves?

Which of these are actually one of the worst crimes a human being can commit in a civilized society?

Maybe the line should be drawn at what does direct empirical harm and not something that just feels icky.

I wasn't making an argument, I was honestely asking. But thanks for ridiculing curiousity.

 

[Milamber]

Hello there Milamber.

Hiya there Jazz!

I am drawing a stick figure drawing of two stick figures doing a horizontal limbo parallel to each other.

I will draw one with a triangle on its assumed waist to depict a skirt and the other one witha short line between its legs to depict a male identifying body part.

Then I shall write the imagined age of said stick figures right by their heads.

Would 10 be a good number?

 

[Odrion]

Wanting to rape people not a sexual disorder, you heard it on neogaf first.

Did you realize that you can read a story about incest and not be into your sister? Jesus people what is the problem that when we're talking about sexual topics suddendly everyone is so insecure.

Raping does not make you mentally ill. Fantasizing about rape is not categorized as a mental disorder, there is no disorder in which rape is almost entirely exclusive to it. Stop comparing rape, an action, to pedophilia, a mental disorder.

 

[Chainsawkitten]

I'm honestly just curious how your rational only applies to the drawn variety.

It doesn't. You don't have to be a pedophile to watch real child porn. But the production of real child porn is immoral regardless of your intentions as it involves the exploitation of children.

 

[CadetMahoney]

And being raped is third most common fantasy for women. Obviously vast majority of those women wouldn't want to get actually raped.

Certain governments have proven they don't listen to any counter arguments. Any fake rape fantasy media (including anything drawn) as well as anything underage is already illegal in the UK and land you 3 years in jail and on the sex offenders list. Some guy got jailed just for having drawings last year.

 

[Jazz573]

Hiya there Jazz!

I am drawing a stick figure drawing of two stick figures doing a horizontal limbo parallel to each other.

I will draw one with a triangle on its assumed waist to depict a skirt and the other one witha short line between its legs to depict a male genital.

Then I shall write the imagined age of said stick figures right by their heads.

Would 10 be a good number?

4000 would be better.

 

[Ratrat]

But how would that list not also apply to real child porn?

"Hey, I watch child porn.. but only because I fantasize about being a little kid who is raped, so I'm not a pedophile."

I'm honestly just curious how your rational only applies to the drawn variety.

I'm not rationalizing it. I don't believe most of that, it's excuses I've read in reviews of such anime.
And I'm pretty sure you don't have to be a pedophile to get arrested for possession any more than distribution.

 

[Odrion]

Also consensual sex between two adult relatives is not classified as a mental disorder.

 

[meltingparappa]

I wasn't making an argument, I was honestely asking. But thanks for ridiculing curiousity.

Aw, I was actually agreeing with your main point and just trying to extend it.

 

[Regulus Tera]

Whether loli appeals exclusively to IRL pedos or not is irrelevant to whether it should be banned Neil Gaiman sums up my feelings on the issue.

One of the best defences of freedom of speech I've read.

 

[Milamber]

Also consensual sex between two adult relatives is not classified as a mental disorder.

But what if we draw it?

 

[Rafterman]

no, it was just the same old argument "i don't want things banned but.... yeah those things should get burned to the ground". be honest with yourself at least

I was perfectly honest with myself, unlike the people who like this stuff. I don't want things banned, but at the same time I don't think giving them legitimacy is healthy either. Just because I don't want this garbage banned, it's fiction and real people aren't getting hurt afterall, doesn't mean I don't think it shouldn't come with a heaping does of head shaking and disgust.

Basically this:

You ask, What makes it worth defending? and the only answer I can give is this: Freedom to write, freedom to read, freedom to own material that you believe is worth defending means you're going to have to stand up for stuff you don't believe is worth defending, even stuff you find actively distasteful, because laws are big blunt instruments that do not differentiate between what you like and what you don't, because prosecutors are humans and bear grudges and fight for re-election, because one person's obscenity is another person's art.

Because if you don't stand up for the stuff you don't like, when they come for the stuff you do like, you've already lost.

Or this.

I don't think loli hentai is child porn. I think it's creepy as all hell, but I believe that child porn is a crime which has a child victim. I wouldn't really want to associate with anyone who likes that kind of thing, but I don't think they should receive jail time.

 

[MrToughPants]

So there's an Animated Child Porn Defense Force....

 

[Odrion]

But what if we draw it?

Are you trying to be witty? Because this is illogical.

 

[Regulus Tera]

Also by shoving a stick into this particular sensitive spot, I've demonstrated how drawn child porn has a negative influence in a community. Now that we have moved on from the "well, if it's an outlet than it's good?" we're seeing people rush to defend it. Literally saying that drawn depictions of children being raped isn't child porn, that people into it aren't pedophiles.

What a crazy double speak, right? Here, in this very game community you have a particular group of crazies spouting this angry nonsense when you push them. Now I ask you this: Wouldn't this be a great smoke screen for a sexual predator?

Are you calling me a pedophile?

 

[riotous]

It doesn't. You don't have to be a pedophile to watch real child porn. But the production of real child porn is immoral regardless of your intentions as it involves the exploitation of children.

I guess I can understand; I've watched porn that turned me on even though I had no desire to participate in what was being displayed. Attraction to things that are taboo that only extends to fantasy.

It just seems like a rather pointless distinction when it comes to something that relates in any way to child porn, including the drawn variety.

Do young children not sometimes view these anime or read these manga that have young children being seduced, or doing the seducing of an older man or woman? Could they not be influenced by this?

I'm not usually one to say "well think of the children" when it comes to media aimed at adults, but this takes it to another level in that it deals with the psychology of children. And many anime seem to almost prey on the psychology of children.

 

[Jazz573]

Are you trying to be witty? Because this is illogical.

Ya think?! Of course he's trying to be witty.

 

[riotous]

I'm not rationalizing it. I don't believe most of that, it's excuses I've read in reviews of such anime.
And I'm pretty sure you don't have to be a pedophile to get arrested for possession any more than distribution.

Ah thanks, I'll add an edit.

 

[Chariot]

Aw, I was actually agreeing with your main point and just trying to extend it.

Oh I see. I am sorry then. It looked like a parody to me :,)
But I am legit curious how people who look very underage, but are actually not are handled in real life. I mean, "actually a 30 year old science major" isn't close to a 1000 year old dragon, but still very interesting if the 30 year old science major looks like a child and stars in a porn.