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[Kain-Nosgoth]

never cared about power levels, we're talking about dragon ball, there's ton of inconsistancies, and the story isn't that interesting! As long as i have good and funny interaction and great fight, i don't care!

it was great to see roshi back!

 

[Oblivion]

edit: screw this y'all are being unreasonable

 

[chekhonte]

File this under no shit. DBZ was only ever about the spectacle and once that novelty wore off there was nothing left.

 

[Just_myles]

Not at all. Future Trunks saga was much weaker in the manga.

I disagree with you. I think the arc in general was bad. The anime gave Trunks a BS powerup with no explanation that basically put him in the same footing as Goku and Vegeta. The manga side stepped it and did the most logical thing but was poorly executed. So they both lose on that one.

 

[Kain-Nosgoth]

Stop it, all of you. Roshi fought (and defeated!) Universe 6's Freeza. It's not any less absurd.

he didn't...

 

[Sephzilla]

Stop it, all of you. Roshi fought (and defeated!) Universe 6's Freeza. It's not any less absurd.

.....You haven't watched the show, have you

edit: screw this y'all are being unreasonable

yeah, we're unreasonable for calling you out for saying things that never happened

 

[Daingurse]

I disagree with you. I think the arc in general was bad. The anime gave Trunks a BS powerup with no explanation that basically put him in the same footing as Goku and Vegeta. The manga side stepped it and did the most logical thing but was poorly executed. So they both lose on that one.

Trunks didn't get to do shit in the manga. That alone makes it worse for me. I enjoyed Trunks' asspull in the anime. It was hype.

 

[Anth0ny]

power levels are stupid, but i still don't understand why people get so offended when people debate character strength in a story about fighting


it's whatever to me

 

[Nightbird]

Stop it, all of you. Roshi fought (and defeated!) Universe 6's Freeza. It's not any less absurd.

He didn't defeat Him. He spooked him. Are we watching the same show?

 

[Mechanized]

Power levels ARE stupid. They ruin the series. It made me like DB more than DBZ for a long time. It's the kinda thing where a number makes character relevant, rather than their fighting skill. It really limits the potential of any battles.

 

[Htown]

This is why, to me, this moment was basically peak DragonBall for me

The original Goku vs Vegeta fight feels like basically the pinnacle of old DragonBall, it's a well animated fight that ends with some cool spectacle

it also managed to have multiple characters make relevant contributions to bringing the bad guy down, as opposed to just standing on the sidelines and going "Aaahhhh! His power! It's amazing!"

 

[Kard8p3]

I remember a couple of people said plague is a milkshake duck, so yeah.

Best power levels are Toriko.

 

[Daingurse]

power levels are stupid, but i still don't understand why people get so offended when people debate character strength in a story about fighting


it's whatever to me

Yeah, many people seem to have a real aversion to that type of shit. I myself have always enjoyed discussing power scaling and feats in battle manga.

I remember a couple of people said plague is a milkshake duck, so yeah.

Best power levels are Toriko.

Nice! I also enjoyed the Capture Levels in Toriko. That series handled power-scaling well. I always had a good idea of where characters stood, and the Capture Levels by the end of the series got really damn hype lol.

Just wish the series wasn't rushed. The last few arcs were paced too damn fast. So much wasted potential . . .

 

[Sephzilla]

it also managed to have multiple characters make relevant contributions to bringing the bad guy down, as opposed to standing on the sidelines and going "Aaahhhh! His power! It's amazing!"

yep, three of my favorite story arcs in Dragonball are

1) The Saiyan Saga
2) The first two thirds of the Android/Cell Saga
3) The Tournament of Power (so far)

Why? Because the supporting cast is actually doing shit in these arcs.

 

[chekhonte]

Also I thought this was going to be an alt-right/teenage white supremacist are idiots thread.

 

[LordKasual]

Wrong, He wasn't stupid in original DB, he was naive which is different, everything in the world was pretty much new to him being raised by his "grand father", him becoming stronger wasn't his goal but the meaning to achieve something, usually to help others accomplish something.
What you have now is a derping man with not personality at all, a selfish bot programmed to fight just cause without thinking of the consequences.

Goku didn't meet Android 18 until the Buu saga. He never met 17 until DBSuper.

Goku had never even seen what Frieza looked like until he was already final form. He never saw what Cell looked like until he was already Perfect.


Goku has already shown more personality in DBSuper than the majority of DBZ...mainly because he's actually present in DBSuper. You're talking about the personality of a guy who's either been dead, dying, sick, or desperately training / rushing to a fight so his friends dont get blown up. DBSuper doesn't really have that issue.

 

[Oberon]

I remember a couple of people said plague is a milkshake duck, so yeah.

Best power levels are Toriko.

Couple of people said it? It must be true then.

 

[LotusHD]

power levels are stupid, but i still don't understand why people get so offended when people debate character strength in a story about fighting


it's whatever to me

I don't get offended, but stuff like Dragon Ball for example is just going to give y'all a needless headache with the way I've seen people debate over it. Especially when the sentiment is that DBS no longer really cares, so it's even more awkward.

 

[Kard8p3]

Couple of people said it? It must be true then.

They quoted stuff he said on his stream *shrug*. It was in the milkshake duck thread a while back. I was surprised myself.

 

[Oblivion]

.....You haven't watched the show, have you



yeah, we're unreasonable for calling you out for saying things that never happened

I was hoping we'd move on from such trivialities, but to answer your question, yes I have seen many full episodes of Super and also quite a few video clips as well.

Goku had never even seen what Frieza looked like until he was already final form. He never saw what Cell looked like until he was already Perfect.

Actually, he met Cell when he was in his semi-Perfect form.

 

[L4DANathan]

Precise power levels are stupid, sure. But you should always be able to determine who is stronger before the main battle starts, so you can have a proper sense of scale and tension. It's why I liked DB -> most of DBZ, because DB revolved mostly around the tactics of the fight, but when power levels got introduced, they paced and power crept in a way that you could generally follow the comparative strength of those involved. The Cell saga is where you started to lose that and the Buu saga lost it completely, making the general structure of the show a lot more obvious and difficult to suspend belief. Where <insert villain here> is stronger than <insert hero here> until they find <magical mcguffin> which allows the hero to just barely come out victorious.

 

[The Omega Man]

But... wasn't he always like that?

Goku didn't meet Android 18 until the Buu saga. He never met 17 until DBSuper.

Goku had never even seen what Frieza looked like until he was already final form. He never saw what Cell looked like until he was already Perfect.


Goku has already shown more personality in DBSuper than the majority of DBZ...mainly because he's actually present in DBSuper. You're talking about the personality of a guy who's either been dead, dying, sick, or desperately training / rushing to a fight so his friends dont get blown up. DBSuper doesn't really have that issue.

I fail to see how all that refutes what I said (which is from original DB BTW), also saying DBSuper Goku's Personality > DBZ Goku is not much, he's being continually deteriorating (personality wise) since the Freezer saga ended.

 

[Sephzilla]

I was hoping we'd move on from such trivialities, but to answer your question, yes I have seen many full episodes of Super and also quite a few video clips as well.

And yet you for some reason think Roshi is stronger than Majin Buu and beat Frost? Like, the show sort of makes it clear that Roshi, Tien, and Krillin are still in way over their heads and are simply outsmarting people. Roshi nearly dies fighting an opponent that Vegeta and Frieza both dumptruck.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

But....why would you want such things to begin with?

The rest of the cast being irrelevant to all villains and the main hero makes for boring Shonen.

I'm watching Yu Yu Hakusho for the first time right now on Hulu and it's a breath of fresh air. While there is certainly improvement that all the fighters go through like a typical battle Shonen, the progression through the Dark tournament is constantly subverted by the Survivor Series format of the team battles. There are enemies who know they can't win doing their best to fuck up the heroes for the next fight; heroes getting easy "squash" victories with OP attacks that are completely pyrrhic because it uses too much energy and they have to fight another team the next day; heroes winning fights with creative asspulls (like DB or the Saiyan saga) rather than brute force powerups; heroes actually losing fair and square in some matches (but the team advancing).

My Hero Academia and HxH create constant tension by reminding you that, no matter how powerful the heroes get, they're still complete noobs compared to the adults in their respective universes, so they have to be creative in order to escape from or defeat their villains.

Goku and Vegeta are the most powerful mortals in the entire universe of DB Super (really, they were this by the beginning of the Buu saga as well). The multiverse is necessary to even give them opponents. Toriyama writing in new characters who can now deflect their attacks, or letting Krillin be strong enough to punch Gohan because reasons, makes the show more about the fun of the fights instead of constantly chasing after a new transformation.

 

[Alex_Mexico]

it also managed to have multiple characters make relevant contributions to bringing the bad guy down, as opposed to just standing on the sidelines and going "Aaahhhh! His power! It's amazing!"

Yeah no shit. Even fucking Yayirobe managed to contribute significantly TWICE!

Hell, the last attack to Vegeta was done by Krillin with help from Gohan. God, that Genkidama (spirit bomb for you, Americans) last stand was nailbitingwith Krillin missing and Gohan rebounding it while Goku was in the ground crushed and almost dead.

Dragonball used to have stakes and you could tell how after the Freezer saga Toriyama had a lot of trouble coming up with compelling archs. Now Super is a walk through Disneyland in comparison (provideed Im only past the Universe7 vs Universe 6 tournament saga).

 

[Daingurse]

This is why, to me, this moment was basically peak DragonBall for me

The original Goku vs Vegeta fight feels like basically the pinnacle of old DragonBall, it's a well animated fight that ends with some cool spectacle

This shit is peak battle shonen anime. My 2nd favorite scene in any anime, period. It really is the sweet spot between OG DB and the escalation of power present in DBZ. Goku vs Vegeta is the best fight in the series.

 

[Shy]

But without power levels, how will i know how powerful the newest gaming hardware is ?

 

[NandoGip]

If you think Goku is p much an alternate universe version of Superman, you're just flat out wrong.

Toriyama himself has pretty gone on record saying he's the equivalent of a high functioning mentally stunted person who's obsessed with fighting (hopefully it isnt offensive to put it this way)

I was hoping we'd move on from such trivialities, but to answer your question, yes I have seen many full episodes of Super and also quite a few video clips as well.

LMAO. Dude has never seen it yet he's shitting all over Super

 

[Professor Renegade]

Never heard of this PlagueOfGripes

Plague is the best man. The dude is a fucking enigma because he comes off as the kind of person that you would expect to just sit around and complain on the internet all day, but he's a great artist with educated opinions (particaularly when it comes to Dark Souls, of all things). Also he lives in the middle of buttfuck nowhere.

 

[Garlador]

it also managed to have multiple characters make relevant contributions to bringing the bad guy down, as opposed to just standing on the sidelines and going "Aaahhhh! His power! It's amazing!"

The MVP of that fight was Yajirobe. YAJIROBE.

 

[LotusHD]

But without power levels, how will i know how powerful the newest gaming hardware is ?

Have them do a ki beam struggle

 

[Mesoian]

Wrong, He wasn't stupid in the original DB, he was naive which is different, everything in the world was pretty much new to him being raised by his "grand father", him becoming stronger wasn't his goal but the meaning to achieve something, usually to help others accomplish something.
What you have now is a derping man with not personality at all, a selfish bot programmed to fight just cause without thinking of the consequences.

One might say a power mad Karate bum jonesing for his next real challenge?

I'll agree that young Goku was a lot more personable, usually because he didn't know anything about anything. But I don't know if I would call him smart, or even focused. He's constantly outwitted by the majority of the rogue's gallery, their defeat usually coming from an unforeseen and sometimes inexplicable counter. Adult Goku comes off as an asshole because it's like he's found the thing he wants to know about, and that's fighting. And literally fuck anything else other than fighting, it's actually kind of neat villain material.

But I wouldn't call Kid Goku dumb in the same way I wouldn't call Arele dumb.

And I don't know, Goku evolving to become a sort of terrible person is pretty interesting. It' s just too bad it happened by accident.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Dragonball has always been garbage. HOWEVER, the slice of life portions tend to be way more endearing. Fights were the same. The tension sucks. The pacing sucks. You have to overlook a lot of problems to enjoy it.

 

[LordKasual]

I fail to see how all that refutes what I said (which is from original DB BTW), also saying DBSuper Goku's Personality > DBZ Goku is not much, he's being continually deteriorating (personality wise) since the Freezer saga ended.

I'm not saying his personality didn't deteriorate...i'm saying he never really had one to begin with

and that kind of IS his personality, he just likes fighting things. This isn't even lost on the characters in the show. He's indifferent to pretty much everything except fighting.

 

[Oblivion]

And yet you for some reason think Roshi is stronger than Majin Buu and beat Frost? Like, the show sort of makes it clear that Roshi, Tien, and Krillin are still in way over their heads and are simply outsmarting people. Roshi nearly dies fighting an opponent that Vegeta and Frieza both dumptruck.

Have you heard of the phrases "letter of the law" and "spirit of the law"?

You're giving me a ton of grief cause I may have gotten some technical details wrong (letter of the law) but are ignoring the broader argument that previously incredibly weak fighters are exponentially stronger, seemingly for no logical reason (spirit of the law).

So are you gonna tell me Krillin wasn't going head to head with Goku either?

 

[Frozenprince]

Because otherwise DragonBall would be the Goku and Vegeta show. And, if the first two story arcs of DragonBall Super proved anything, that shit is boring as fuck. DragonBall is always way better when the rest of the supporting cast is relevant.

Tienshinhan will RISE.

 

[HeatBoost]

Fact: fans have clung to the notion of power levels much, much harder than Toriyama ever did

Spoiler

Bonus fact: the Dragonball anime is a fun diversion but it's pacing problems fundamentally hamper it's total qualitative potential, and it's bad, time-stretching, episode-stuffing habits are responsible for DB's overall bad reputation despite the manga not sharing any of them

 

[LordKasual]

So are you gonna tell me Krillin wasn't going head to head with Goku either?

no, he wasn't. Goku obviously has to sandbag his power, and can easily overpower him.

Krillin's trump card in DBZ has always been his ingenuity, not his raw strength.

He's gotten a small victory over nearly every villian in DBZ, and they have all been exponentially stronger than him.


He almost ended up killing both Nappa AND Frieza lol

 

[Unbounded]

I remember a couple of people said plague is a milkshake duck, so yeah.

Best power levels are Toriko.

Ha.

Ha...

Toriko went friggin' nuts towards the end.

 

[Daingurse]

Tienshinhan will RISE.

Spoiler

That picture just depresses me now. Super took a giant dump on Tien.

 

[Sephzilla]

Have you heard of the phrases "letter of the law" and "spirit of the law"?

You're giving me a ton of grief cause I may have gotten some technical details wrong (letter of the law) but are ignoring the broader argument that previously incredibly weak fighters are exponentially stronger, seemingly for no logical reason (spirit of the law).

So are you gonna tell me Krillin wasn't going head to head with Goku either?

We haven't seen Roshi fight in DragonBall for a long time, so it's hard to actually gauge how strong he is. I can accept that he kept training to keep himself at least decently strong. Plus, the show makes it pretty clear that Roshi is getting by almost entirely on his fighting smarts and not his strength. Roshi nearly dies (twice) fighting enemies that Gohan/Vegeta/Goku would steamroll through. Then Roshi bows out because he's gonna die if he sticks around any longer.

Tien has always been depicted as a relatively strong fighter, just that he's behind everyone else. This is the same guy who held off semi-Perfect Cell and also was confident enough to attempt fighting Super Buu after Buu absorbed Gotenks. And it's not like Super also doesn't establish that Tien is still behind the main cast (Gohan lands a clean blow on him in training and Tien straight up cant do shit about it)

Krillin's power jump is a little more ridiculous but I can accept it for the sake of storytelling. Plus, like Roshi and Tien, the show makes it pretty clear that he's over his head is getting by purely via fighting smarts.

Another thing that I don't think you're factoring in. What if a lot of the fighters in the Tournament of Power aren't actually as strong as people like Goku, Vegeta, Hit, or Jiren? During the exhibition matches before the tournament even begins they establish that some of the fighters aren't even on Fat Buu's level

 

[Lulubop]

Instead HxH has nen which is author magic. Much better

I know this is a lame dig at hxh but every ability has worked under the guidelines Togashi established when he introduced Nen. Additionally the tier in the series are a lot closer together than most series, a few exoecrions aside. You can elaborate tho.

 

[Kusagari]

You can tell who hasn't watched the show because they are claiming Roshi having focus is somehow offensive because that totally means he's fighting Majin Buy level opponents with ease...

I highly doubt Ganos is much weaker, if at all, than the Buu saga top tiers. He was basically the leader of U4 and jobbed to Roshi.

 

[Daingurse]

Ha.

Ha...



Toriko went friggin' nuts towards the end.

Destroying an earth sized planet was so trivial by the end of Toriko. The feats on display in the climax were absolutely insane. Some of the craziest shit I've seen in a shonen manga. They were fucking that Neptune class planet up!

 

[LordKasual]

Spoiler

That picture just depresses me now. Super took a giant dump on Tien.

This shit actually becomes more and more hilarious the longer you look at it

every time i notice something new

 

[Daingurse]

This shit actually becomes more and more hilarious the longer you look at it

every time i notice something new

Haha, there's a lot to appreciate in that image! Always make me smile.

 

[necrosis]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPwVuC3YOrc

Never heard of this PlagueOfGripes guy, but this is a pretty good video. He manages to cover most of the issues wrong with DBZ's/GT's/Super's concept of power levels. I do disagree with his conclusion that we should be glad that there's no logic to power levels anymore in Super because Dragonball's supposed to be a "silly" series. Fuck. That. Super is still trash.

yeah super is absolute garbage. gt is legitimately better than it in pretty much every respect

toriyama is pulling some george lucas shit

 

[Fj0823]

I highly doubt Ganos is much weaker, if at all, than the Buu saga top tiers. He was basically the leader of U4 and jobbed to Roshi.

No, Ganos is just a kid with the ability to gain more and more power the more he fights, that's exactly why Roshi deemed him a threat and dealt with him before he could reach insane levels. (He even mentions that he's the kind of opponent that would screw Goku as he he would want to keep making him stronger)

AND He almost died in the process.

And we know that U4 strongest fighters are their

Spoiler

insect sized fighters

yeah super is absolute garbage. gt is legitimately better than it in pretty much every respect

toriyama is pulling some george lucas shit

That would explain why GT killed the franchise while Super made it TOEI's most profitable franchise.

 

[Gilbals]

I kinda wish Eli had a Gaf account right now...

 

[Cyframe]

I actually watched the entire video. He's right when he mentioned the psychics in YYH. If Goku was confronted with territories he'd lose. Or bust out of the ruleset with a Kamehameha wave. Not because he outsmarted someone or thought of a unique way to deal with the situation.

DB talks about power levels but doesn't explain them well. He used Videl to showcase her discovering Ki.

That's why I'm not really into Super, and how I can look back at shows I watched as a kid and say, hmm, they did have issues. I'll always like Dragon Ball, but it has a lot of issues as a series.