I think it's silly to place all the blame for Free Radical's collapse on HD consoles and say the Wii is some magical saviour, but surely people can see the effect the increased development costs are having? Like someone mentioned earlier, they probably treid to get a loan to keep going, but couldn't due to the current economic crisis. However, you don't think the fact that they probably needed to get a 20 million dollar loan, to try and develop and release a game into a very crowded marketplace made it even more difficult?
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Pretty much confirmed - Free Radical have been Hazed
- Thread starter acm2000
- Start date
titiklabingapat
Member
Uh...Woo-Fu said:
This post gave me a headache.
If that's the case, then it should apply to the other consoles as well. Everyone else could just be buying Halo 3/GTA/Gears on the 360 but that is offset by a selct few who buys hundreds of games each...
Sad, I was really looking forward to TS4. One of the few console FPS series I really enjoyed despite the controls.
It's also pretty sad that this thread has turned into a pissing match between "HD gaming is bad! Make games for Wii!" and "Fuck the Wii here's sales of a feature-light game to prove FPS don't sell on it!"
It's also pretty sad that this thread has turned into a pissing match between "HD gaming is bad! Make games for Wii!" and "Fuck the Wii here's sales of a feature-light game to prove FPS don't sell on it!"
Scrubking said:
Read earlier in the thread. Call of Duty 5 Wii was given massive marketing backing and bombed, doubly so when compared with the HD versions.
The best part about being a Wii apologist though is that there are always exceptions! Obviously Call of Duty 5 failed because it was it wasn't geared toward the casual audience, or it was made by a B team or ... or ... or........ zzzzzzzzz
Honestly if Monster Lab/Skate It/Call of Duty 5/De Blob/Shawn White/.... aren't "what Wii gamers have been clamoring for" then I don't know what this nebulous, hypothetical hardcore/casual/AAA/cheap/small game is. Wii fans that keep trotting out these talking points are increasingly sounding like PS3 apologists from a few months ago. "Wait until Virtua Fighter 5! Oh wait that didn't count. Wait until MGS4! Oh wait that didn't count. Wait until Secret Game!"
I liked Monster Lab and I thought it was a brilliant game for my company to work on and I thought it fit the Wii market absolutely fine. I brought up the example of its failure to show that you can be a Wii developer and horribly fail. I'm trying to emphasize that horrible failure in the gaming industry has nothing to do with what platform you develop for.
SIP YEK NOD
Banned
This could be the beginning of a lot more pain in the industry.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
Anerythristic said:
That's the point I was getting at...what the Wii fans on GAF want, and what the Wii fans in general want, may not be the same thing.
Flying_Phoenix
Banned
Tiktaalik said:
I'm just curious to as what size was the company that was handling those games laid off of? That post really doesn't downplay the fact that LucasArts and other publishers weren't spending more then what they could chew because the independent supporter could have been doing the same. I'm not saying that happened I'm just saying that there is no reason to call him a moron.
Mr. Spinnington said:
Clover was more of an example of a company that made games too unappealing of their budget that crashed and burned.
Tiktaalik said:
Okay first of all Shaun White bombed on pretty much everything so I don't know why you are limiting it just toward the Wii (the platform that made almost half of the games sales)? Monster Lab...I didn't even know that game was even out, and as you mentioned it had poor advertising so it was destined to fail, so why even mention it if you yourself stated that it has an excuse when your complaining that other people are making up excuses for it for doing poorly? Call of Duty 5...seriously? It's pretty obvious that the Wii and DS versions sold far worse because they are just flatout inferior to their HD counterparts in every conceivable form. It's the same reason why PS2 versions or handheld versions sell far worse then the PS3/360 ones. And again it are those versions (particularly the 360) in which are pushed it's the same reason why Rock Band is finding success on Wii while isn't really anywhere else. Possibly people are shouting "excuses" because there are logicial excuses to why these games did poorly.
I'm not saying that Wii games don't bomb, the Wii is like any other system it has its success and its failures. Like yeah I'd give you that Warioland Shake It! unperformed due to the Wii being against it since it was a game better suited for a handheld then a console but really the games you listed really do have strong excuses to as of why they failed. I mean yes as I said the Wii has failures and that's because it's like any other console out there. There is no "magical sales" result on any platform. Games well marketed and that mix with the demographics that it can appeal to on the userbase find success games that don't, don't, which I think is what you were trying to say.
And people aren't saying "The Wii will save us because it will end all the problems in the industry!" People are saying that the Wii has lower specs thus cheaper development costs to create games due to less emphasis on graphical details as well as lower standards in presentation. Surely you aren't going to argue with me if Valkyria Chronicles was developed on the Wii instead of the PS3 and sold the same it would have resulted in SEGA losing less money due to less amount of production being put into the game? This leaves less risk to the developer and more chances for them to pull in a profit thus resulting in higher chances of their studios not getting shutdown and publishers greenlighting more or some of the more unique games which is what all gamers want. Also Wii owners want the same thing PS3 owners and 360 owners and PC owners and DS owners and PSP owners want, quality production valued games much like Dragon Quest X, Tales of Mothership, TMNT Brawler, No More Heroes, and Tatsunoko vs Capcom that the Wii has gotten/getting already.
It's one thing if you are simply saying your disagreeing with people but if you claiming that people are saying something aren't and giving them slight insults then that's just a no no (I mean really the poster from above just said one line and you called him a moron when he could have been refering to multiple things). It just seems that you and other people are on merely different but similar sounding topics.
mikekennyb
Member
Of course it sucks for these guys to lose their jobs, but I feel that Free Radical never lived up to its' potential. I liked the first Timesplitters, but other than that felt their games were dissappointing.
Lightning said:
Yep. Welcome them with open arms.
During the day give them development kits and have them go to work on some great game ideas with a huge budget and good crew management.
During the cold winter though,give them plenty of good food, beer,and woman when locked in their game studio dungeons.
AAA game guaranteed?
Maybe.
Chrange said:
Of course not. But that's the environment that has been fostered on the PS360. It's either multi-million dollar blockbuster epic, or $15 downloadable game. The middle ground is increasingly being whittled away. Whether this is due to the reluctance to step away from the $60 price structure and price a game at say $40, or simply because the userbase doesn't want middle ground games, I don't know.
The advantage the Wii offers, is that the cost of development seems to make games which would be considered midsized on the HD consoles, immediately becomes a big budget game on the Wii.
I'm talking strictly budgets here, by the way.
CoD5 Sales is to Scrubking as Red Rag is to Bull. I agree that the excuses list is getting quite long. We have some numbers on Shaun White though: http://www.reuters.com/article/tech...C620081218?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0 . 40% of sales were for the Wii which is pretty damn good considering it came out on every platform.Tiktaalik said:
I don't think there's a market for lets say.. a driving simulator like GT5 or Forza, but I do think there's a market for a game like Burnout. There's alot of games that would sell well, and remember that you don't have to reinvent the wheel. Most of Nintendo's succesfull games like Smash Bros. and Mario Kart haven't changed that much compared to their prequels.Link said:
Once a developer sees the word "Wii" they go insane and start releasing shit like Soul Calibur Legends or they focus on games that wouldn't sell on any system at all because there's just no market for those type of games. Just look at Dewy's Adventure and Elebits. Pubilshers who get the right idea with games like RE:UC and Mario & Sonic: At the Olympics are able to sell a decent ammount of copies.
This is really not the place to discuss this though.
[Nintex] said:
Absolutely. I mentioned the lack of marketing on the last page so you may have missed it. Unfortunately we'll never really know whether Monster Lab would have been a success or not, because it was absolutely not supported by any marketing at all and it was basically sent to die. It's a shame because I actually think it could have done pretty well if it was pushed in Nintendo Power for example.
Fredescu said:
Those are good, encouraging, sales for Shaun White. That title, along with Skate It, I felt had the best chance of grabbing good sales this holiday season, since it could grab the casual and hardcore audience. I bet the Wii Fit board compatibility helped in its sales.
Scrubking said:
I guess you missed the part where "I liked Monster Lab and I thought it was a brilliant game for my company to work on" but no you're right obviously I hate the Wii.
With regard to WaW Wii, I don't know earlier in the thread someone posted an article which said that the Wii version recieved most of the marketing budget. I don't watch TV so I can't really refute that fact. It seemed reasonable enough to me.
Fredescu said:
What excuse list? The game was a shadow of the HD versions. They didn't even fucking include capture the flag. And what, ONE TV AD a month after the game was released is "massive marketing backing"??
That's making excuses? That type of effort deserved to sell as well as the other versions? Give me a break.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
Link said:
And I can understand and respect that.
I think the Wii is still shaking off the Gamecubes image, and 3rd parties don't know what to do with this new market of gamers.
Personally though, I feel Nintendo should really starting courting developers like MS does. There really is no reason why the Wii shouldn't have both casual and hardcore games in quantity.
Flying_Phoenix
Banned
Link said:
Wii Owners want the games they are interested in. The Wii is the fastest selling console of all-time that includes casuals, gamers, girls, boys, men, women, young, elderly, etc. All of them just want games that are fun and appeal to them.
EXGN said:
Not in any of the commercials I see. This is the only commercial I have seen shown on TV: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkfrXJXR_io
Tiktaalik said:
Bull fucking shit. :lol
That is all. Bullshit. Calling the Advertising of the Wii version alone "massive" is such a fucking exaggeration that you should be embarrassed to even say something like that.
Throw stones at the Wii fans all you want but keep the nonsense to a minimum. Please...
Tiktaalik said:
Oh wow yeah your full of it. How exactly did it seem "reasonable enough" to you to assume that was correct?
Was it because it would have literally been the first time the Wii version of a multiplat was given the advertising spotlight?
Was it because that would have mean they spent most of the advertising on the least featured version of the game?
Give me a reason why you would assume for any reason whatsoEVER that the Wii version of a multiplat would get the major share of advertising dollars, not only on a multiplat third party game, but on CALL OF DUTY!, the FIRST PERSON SHOOTER considering what we have seen this gen thus far..... :lol
It would have been reasonable to assume the opposite. Not even Guitar Hero gets the bulk of advertising for the Wii and it sells the most there.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
Scrubking said:
I saw at least six COD:WAW Wii commericals last week within the course of a two hour movie on G4.
Puncture said:
"Massive" is too much, I completely take it back. :lol Usually I try to edit away that amount of fanboyish hyperbole.
In fact the article that was sourced merely says that Activision was supporting the product with commercials, and that they appeared "regularly" so I've definitely gotten ahead of myself here.
The one part of the point stands though in that the Wii version flopped when you consider the install base, and it can't be explained away with "zero marketing." I certainly don't expect it to do as well as the xbox versions, but it does lead to questions about whether a hardcore shooter like CoD is appropriate for the Wii.
Mr. Mister
Member
I realize this isn't a fact but I have seen over five Call of Duty: World at War commercials and every single one of them was for the Wii version.
You guys saying the Wii version didn't get marketing are just wrong.
You guys saying the Wii version didn't get marketing are just wrong.
Poimandres
Member
This is really sad news.
I hope someone steps in and provides them a new home. They're talented developers no doubt.
I hope someone steps in and provides them a new home. They're talented developers no doubt.
AndersTheSwede
Member
Ichi said:
:lol :lol ... :lol
--
Bummer this happened to Free Radical, but in the current economy with credit near impossible to obtain (especially in Britain) taking a 20 million hit on the books from a bad game leads to automatic bankruptcy.
There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the "HD" business model. There is simply less room for error. If you put 20 million into a game it better be good or you go under.
Some may say that's too little room for error, well okay, then get out of the kitchen and go to Arcade/PSN, Wii whatever. The full HD market has little tolerance for bad games.
Again the market isn't broken, because there is the potential for great financial success while simultaneously creating groundbreaking games (Bethesda, Epic, Valve etc.). But if your line of credit can't sustain the risk levels and you don't have confidence in your ability to make a great game at this level then you need to change your market as your studio isn't capable of competing.
APZonerunner
Member
Link said:
Yeah, but MS has been putting together another team to continue the franchise, too. The hired a couple of Bungie dudes over for said purpose for a start.
I do think Tiktaalik's central point is valid here, although I don't agree with all of his positions by any means.
CoD5 bombed, despite getting solid reviews and Wii exclusive advertising. Prior to that, BiA bombed, Medal of Honor: Heroes bombed, as did Quantum of Solace and many others. There have been 5-6 attempts at FPS on the Wii -- and again, at least one with advertising and solid reviews -- but they've all flopped. No successes since the launch of the Wii 2 years ago.
And as Scrubking has done, you can explain away every one of these. This one bombed because it was bad, and that one bombed because it didn't get advertised, and that one bombed because it was overshadowed by the HD versions. And to be honest, I think each of these explanations, on an individual, case by case basis, is reasonable.
The problem is that there is now a long, unbroken list of unfortunate coincidences. At what point does this chain of unfortunate coincidences become a pattern? If this list gets to 7-8 games long, can we start reasonably saying, "perhaps this isn't just unfortunate coincidence after all?"
Again, to emphasize: it's possible that this really is just a series of unfortunate coincidences. Possible. But as that list gets longer, the odds of a recovery decline.
CoD5 bombed, despite getting solid reviews and Wii exclusive advertising. Prior to that, BiA bombed, Medal of Honor: Heroes bombed, as did Quantum of Solace and many others. There have been 5-6 attempts at FPS on the Wii -- and again, at least one with advertising and solid reviews -- but they've all flopped. No successes since the launch of the Wii 2 years ago.
And as Scrubking has done, you can explain away every one of these. This one bombed because it was bad, and that one bombed because it didn't get advertised, and that one bombed because it was overshadowed by the HD versions. And to be honest, I think each of these explanations, on an individual, case by case basis, is reasonable.
The problem is that there is now a long, unbroken list of unfortunate coincidences. At what point does this chain of unfortunate coincidences become a pattern? If this list gets to 7-8 games long, can we start reasonably saying, "perhaps this isn't just unfortunate coincidence after all?"
Again, to emphasize: it's possible that this really is just a series of unfortunate coincidences. Possible. But as that list gets longer, the odds of a recovery decline.
Nuclear Muffin
Banned
Tiktaalik said:
Simple really, it's a port of the 360/PS3 game that has not been given much effort, still lacking in features that the other versions have and is being advertised to the wrong crowd (The ad makes the game look like a retarded light gun shooter version of COD!) it should be advertised to the traditional "core" gamer just like with the other versions.
lastendconductor
Put your snobby liquids into my mouth!
This fucking sucks. You "lolz deserved it" guys are retarded or what? you think this trend in the business will net you better games? please. It will give you less studios, that's all. Everything controlled by big ass publishers. Gaming crash here we goooo!