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Project Draco - New kinect game by Yukio Futatsugi (Panzer Dragoon, Phantom Dust)
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REMEMBER CITADEL
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Amir0x said:
You know, I was playing with my dog just an hour ago and I noticed that I couldn't keep up with his motions no matter what, and I have pretty good reflexes. It's been said many times before by the people who've tried it out: when you watch a video of someone playing a Kinect game, lag may seem awful, but when you're actually playing it, it doesn't seem that out of the ordinary because your body naturally lags during those kinds of full-body motions anyway.
Eccocid said:
Not known yet. Mizuguchi said they are looking into that possibility, but nothing is confirmed.
REMEMBER CITADEL said:
Again I think people are refusing to actually read.
I notice lag in NORMAL games, like Killzone 2. I notice lag in many many many Wii games. The lag in Kinect is WORSE, much worse, and the idea that it's not going to impact me when I'm actually playing it is obscene. It's insulting to my intelligence. This is before mentioning that lag is FAR more noticeable when you're making large sweeping motions with your body.
It might not impact YOU, it might not impact a whole plethora of people who don't know what a framerate is or can't tell when something is sub-HD or whatever the bullshit is, but my standards are not so low.
It looks awful, it's going to feel awful, and I'll have no part of that lowered standard shit. I would never have even clicked this thread if it wasn't for the Yukio Futatsugi connection. I'm not going to lie, it is frustrating when developer's for whatever reason choose to be married to such inferior technology. That's irritating because they could be focusing on making the same type of ultra precise hardcore titles they've traditionally made.
ultim8p00 said:
Correctly pointing out how severe the lag is will never be bannable.
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Amir0x said:
I believe it's you who doesn't know how to read. I said the lag might not be as noticeable when you're doing full-body motions. You're not doing those when you're playing a standard controller game and you're not doing those even when you're playing a Wii or a Move game.
REMEMBER CITADEL said:
um, lag is MORE NOTICEABLE when you have to do full body motions. That's why the lag on full motion games on Wii is so frequently painful, and that's even less motion than Kinect.
This is what I mean. People that don't know anything about these subjects trying to apply their lack of standards to everybody.
If many GAFers are anything to judge, then no, no you don't. GAFers routinely incorrectly toss out the troll accusation so often that the only possible conclusion is that most GAFers do not, in fact, know what a troll is.
For many GAFers, troll incorrectly means "anyone who posts negative comments about something I like at a high frequency."
For many GAFers, troll incorrectly means "anyone who posts negative comments about something I like at a high frequency."
Segata Sanshiro
Member
Stop trolling our definition of trolling, Amir0x.
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
Amir0x said:
NOT according to the experiences of many people who have played the thing.
When you're playing a Wii game, you're normally just moving your hand, sometimes only your wrist. The rest of your body is standing rather still, including your head - including your cerebellum and your inner ear, parts of your body responsible for balance and coordination. That's not the case with full-body motions. When you're doing those, your head moves more wildly and your perception is affected. Try reading a book while jumping up and down. It's not easy.
So the theory is your perception changes when you're doing full body motions in front of your TV and thus you don't notice the on-screen lag - which is there - as much.
Granted, it might not be the same with something like Child of Eden or Joy Ride where all you're doing is moving your hands. Interestingly enough, most of the lag complaints I've seen have come from people playing Joy Ride.
InaudibleWhispa
Member
I don't see playing a motion game as lowering my standards, anymore than I do when I play Guitar Hero instead of a real guitar. I just see it as a different experience. Kinect might not give me the accuracy or responsiveness of a controller, but I won't be buying a Kinect game to compete in such a way, it purely comes down to fun. I'll undoubtedly play Child of Eden with a controller if I want to try and climb up the leaderboard, but from what I've seen and read, it looks like I'll have more fun playing it with Kinect, just like I have more fun laying back with a pad and playing Halo whilst a bunch of PC gamers think I'm "lowering my standards" by not using a Keyboard and Mouse. I just don't care, and it's my preference to play with a pad.
If anyone feels like any lag will greatly interfere with their enjoyment, then it's simply not for you, but don't assume that those having fun are lowering any standard, or that they know no better -- I just don't mind taking a loss in those areas if it means having a unique and fun experience. I can understand why controller-based franchise veterans might be pissed off if they're anti-Kinect or anti-motion control though, but I think you should give the developers the benefit of the doubt until you've tried it yourself.
If anyone feels like any lag will greatly interfere with their enjoyment, then it's simply not for you, but don't assume that those having fun are lowering any standard, or that they know no better -- I just don't mind taking a loss in those areas if it means having a unique and fun experience. I can understand why controller-based franchise veterans might be pissed off if they're anti-Kinect or anti-motion control though, but I think you should give the developers the benefit of the doubt until you've tried it yourself.
REMEMBER CITADEL said:
Please. Previews for people who played Wii games were exactly the same for eons. People giving each other blow jobs over the technology, claiming it's the second coming of christ, that this isn't really a factor or that isn't really a factor.
And what happened? When the Wii actually came out, the controller was ridiculously flawed right along with the software. To this day we still have apologists trying to claim the technology is far better than it really is.
Game criticism, indeed all of game journalism, is an empty thing, with almost everyone in the field completely failing at their job in every conceivable way. They are incapable of truly leveling the type of criticism games deserve, because they're afraid publishers or developers might fail to give them access to this game or that game. It's the way of the world. Microsoft is a big player in the industry now, and to think they're going to sit there and accurately point out how big a problem is on a consistent basis when they might fear they'll lose access to a huge new device is simply not going to happen.
REMEMBER CITADEL said:
It's not a theory, though, since it's a fact that lag is more noticeable with full body motions. Are you trying to say that because your head will be bobbing up and down from all the fruity gestures you'll be doing that you won't notice how severe the lag is? Simply absurd.
Like I said, you may indeed love the thing, but none of this bullshit applies for reality.
InaudibleWhispa said:
Unfortunately, we're getting games in established hardcore franchises or from established hardcore developers, in genres where it's a fact that the Kinect will never be able to offer the efficiency, precision and all-around functionality of a controller.
Steel Battalion was a game for the Xbox that utilized a special mecha like controller which had a metric fuck ton of buttons. Without the tactile feedback of the controller, how the hell do you propose we sit around and accept how inferior it is?
Fun is a metric that one can throw around all day and if all you want is embarrassingly cynical cash-grab mini-game compilations like Kinect Sports then that's one thing. It's another when you get games like this which are in genres that are going to compete directly with hardcore franchises in the same genre.
Then all you got is inferiority and gimmicks. And boy I know how this industry and gamers love fucked up gimmicks
REMEMBER CITADEL
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Amir0x said:
Don't worry, I find your "I've seen the videos so I know better than people who have actually played it" bullshit just as absurd. Suit yourself...
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
Amir0x said:
Get off your high horse, I wasn't just talking about press previews, but also testimonies from regular gamers who have tried it out.
Sealda said:Imagine having this guy steer the dragon
Would buy day 1.
Imagine a dragon mounting that guy.
REMEMBER CITADEL said:
who, in much the same way as the useless gaming press, succumb to the ridiculous fever-pitch pre-release hype that they do.
Just like they did with the massively flawed Wii, failing to point out the near endless list of issues the controller had with it first launched.
And just like they're doing now with the Kinect and Move.
Where are you getting these numbers? Rare said their Kinect games had 150 ms of input lag not including the display, and DF tested it at around 200 ms.Man said:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-kinect-tech-analysis?page=2
REMEMBER CITADEL
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Amir0x said:
So everyone is conveniently gullible, stupid and wrong except your brilliant self and people who agree with you. Clever.
REMEMBER CITADEL said:
False. It may indeed be that the amount of lag DOES NOT MATTER to them individually, or any of the other near endless flaws.
But those flaws are facts. The lag is a fact. The limitations of the technology are facts.
What is not a fact is whether that will stifle the enjoyment of the technology and the games on it for you personally. I know myself very well so I know it's not going to magically be appealing when i get my hands on it. That's why it's frustrating when there's games from clearly talented developers being squandered on this inferior technology.
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Amir0x said:
Nobody has said anything about lag not being a fact, we weren't talking about that, we were talking about the perception of lag. What's also a fact is that many people - most, in my experience - do not have any issues with Kinect's lag whatsoever. They say a slight lag is noticeable, but not a problem at all.
Every technology has its limitations, every technology. In certain ways, standard controllers are inferior to mouse and keyboard, special VR equipment or, indeed, Kinect. With that in mind, you could just as easily say that there are plenty of games from otherwise talented developers being squandered on inferior gamepad technology.
In any case, condemning something without even giving it a chance out of sheer stubbornness is ridiculously stupid.
Paracelsus
Member
REMEMBER CITADEL said:
Few people and devs took seriously Wii, and its controls were much more versatile on a "hardcore" perspective than Kinects'.
electroshockwave
Member
TheFightingFish said:
Maybe this isn't the best place to start this but the PS Eye can do head tracking right? I don't know how well it works in GT5 but I'm not sure how well it works with Kinect either. And it's got a mic too. If hybrid games like you suggested are the best we can expect from Kinect and the best chance for hardcore games then I really don't see the justification for Kinect as an add-on if a much cheaper camera is able to do the same things.
Kafel said:
The truth is the truth. I always see this same reaction from anyone who is a stringent defender of the latest wave of motion technology, including this - which is the worst of the worst of it all - and they always just intentionally try to ignore just the insane amount of ways this actually makes gaming in any of the genres that we love on this hardcore gaming forum WORSE. They can't defend their position rationally because there's nothing to defend: the only gasp of air they have is the "it's different than everything else, so it's a different type of fun" credo, and of course ignoring the actual point that this different type of fun is inferior to the type of fun they can already get. Games are all about input. This constant desire to take eighteen step back when we already are at a certain level is infuriating to say the least.
Close your ears, sing yourself a lullaby, pretend the technology isn't embarrassingly flawed. It's up to you to decide just how you burn your money in an incinerator. I can't decide for you.
Remember Citadel said:
.
Amir0x said:
Is this a problem with reading comprehension? Like I've said in every post so far, I am not concerned with the hilariously low standards of certain gaming fans or the incompetence of their criticism. I am concerned only with how I know these games will be to play FOR ME.
It's a fact the lag is severe. It's also a fact that lag is much, much more noticeable with full body motion. It's also a fact that lag is important to me in games. It is also a fact that the lag may indeed not be near severe enough for many low standard peeps to care. That's fine. The only reason there is even a discussion here is because you seem to be unable to comprehend this simple distinction in this debate: that because of these factual flaws, it is not acceptable for ME. That is not to same as saying it's unacceptable for everyone.
Clearly, if everyone had the same taste I did, garbage like Animal Crossing would never be popular.
He needs to provide a source for his numbers.Reallink said:
Here's a shoryuken thread where Toodles tested wireless vs wired controllers for ps3 and 360.
http://shoryuken.com/f177/do-wireless-360-ps3-pads-lag-any-reason-stick-wired-pcb-165659/index2.html
Toodles said:
Now I kinda sorta wish I had tried out Kinect when I had the chance. I didn't realize there was a big lag problem with the device. Of course, I don't enough care to notice the difference between HD and widescreen SD or 30 fps and 60 fps either (crazy nitpickers). Also, we'd waited 30 minutes in line for the damn thing and it was moving at a rate of two people every ten minutes. And we were enclosed in this small white-and-green tomb with a Kinect Adventures ad on repeat blaring in our faces over and over on the HD television set.
I still have nightmares.
I still have nightmares.
DangerousDave
Member
The lag-nolag discussion is interesting, but not the main point.
Kinect has it's flaws, but the important thing is to make games that use the strong points of kinect. Nobody will say that playing Dance Central with a controller is better than with Kinect, for example, in the same way than playing Guitar Hero with a plastic guitar is much better than playing it with controller (GH1 could be played with a normal controller).
But, what give Kinect for a dragon riding game?
Inmersion? Really? Moving left-right to make the dragon move left-right? (when the character, that is the rider, don't move at all). Shooting fireballs with the hands? (when the rider don't use his hands for shooting)
Left analog to move your dragon in any of the x,y axis
Right analog to use as a pointer to aim.
Triggers to control the speed (and, pressing both, avoiding movements like barrel rolls, combined with the direction of the left analog).
Shoulders, or buttons, to shoot or make different kind of attacks.
THAT's the good way to make a dragon riding game. No lag. FULL CONTROL in 3d axis. Intuitive (anyone that is the target of the game will get used to the controls in 10 seconds).
Kinect has it's flaws, but the important thing is to make games that use the strong points of kinect. Nobody will say that playing Dance Central with a controller is better than with Kinect, for example, in the same way than playing Guitar Hero with a plastic guitar is much better than playing it with controller (GH1 could be played with a normal controller).
But, what give Kinect for a dragon riding game?
Inmersion? Really? Moving left-right to make the dragon move left-right? (when the character, that is the rider, don't move at all). Shooting fireballs with the hands? (when the rider don't use his hands for shooting)
Left analog to move your dragon in any of the x,y axis
Right analog to use as a pointer to aim.
Triggers to control the speed (and, pressing both, avoiding movements like barrel rolls, combined with the direction of the left analog).
Shoulders, or buttons, to shoot or make different kind of attacks.
THAT's the good way to make a dragon riding game. No lag. FULL CONTROL in 3d axis. Intuitive (anyone that is the target of the game will get used to the controls in 10 seconds).
Great announcement. Loving the concept art. I hope they will do Kinect & controller support because it'll give them a larger market and probably better chance at financial success.
I don't want to spend 200 just to play a rail shooter. If the N64 controller could handle this genre I see no reason the 360 controller can't. I furthermore think that any motion expansive controll creates an artificial gap between you and the game. The classic controller is just the best, cheapest, pragmatic, casual and probably most neuroligically sound (cortical homunculus) input device for almost all games.
But in the end if, it works as well as a analog controller and the game is actually fun I will get it.
I don't want to spend 200 just to play a rail shooter. If the N64 controller could handle this genre I see no reason the 360 controller can't. I furthermore think that any motion expansive controll creates an artificial gap between you and the game. The classic controller is just the best, cheapest, pragmatic, casual and probably most neuroligically sound (cortical homunculus) input device for almost all games.
But in the end if, it works as well as a analog controller and the game is actually fun I will get it.
DangerousDave
Member
Zabka said:
So your option is manage the movement depending of the position of the arms, and ALL the other things, by voice command. And you want it to be precise, in a degree "goind in full speed between small canyons, avoiding bullets, and shooting in the weak spot of giant enemies". Good luck with that.
Also, Sonic Free Ride shows Sonic running, so following your logic, you'll have to run and the speed will depend of how fast you move your legs.
Man said:
gimmickry is king, Man. In the name of satiating their cynical boredom at the entire industry's output, they're content to settle for something which would be markedly worse than the same title with a regular controller just because it provides some temporary light to their boring, empty lives in the form of "innovation" (whether that innovation is good or not, it matters none). And maybe a little validation among all the people who made fun of them for playing Super Mario Bros. 3 in their underwear when they were 10 years old.
It's the same cycle as Wii. Nothing changes.
These?Zabka said:
There was a combined NeoGAF thread / Digital Foundry article not long ago. I believe I'm pretty spot on with the numbers there.
Let me google it for you.
Edit:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373331
http://gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2010/09/10/run-for-the-hills-playstation-move-has-lag.aspx
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/rare-kinect-lag-not-an-issue
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-console-lag-round-two-article?page=2
Zabka said:
So Kinect can simulate reins now and also parse hectic speach patterns. You better give some sources on that. Furthermore, it seems to be that I am alone in thinking that nothing is more embarrassing than voice commands. I hated any form of it on DS and I am sure I will hate it on Kinect. "Firebolt" "Dragon Turn around"
kadotsu said:
The problem with all voice recognition technology to date is that it so often fails to recognize what you're saying. Any noise pollution at all ruins the recognition too.
So there's no reason to utilize voice commands over any number of other possible inputs until this is improved.
Amir0x said:
Agreed. I have used the dragon speech dictation software before and that is the most advanced implementation of speech recognition available today. Even that doesnt get %70 of what I say right. Add to that background\game voice + the accents people have and it just isn't a viable method for controlling games.
I think kinect will shine in "just dance" type games. I just dont see it become a viable control method for hardcore games. But I was wrong before so who knows..
Amir0x said:
Oh, I know. But an apologist would tell you that "voice recognition has come a long way" even though this is based on pretty expensive technology that also needs a certain calibration time. Plus, I have never seen a demonstration of the sound quality of the mic array of Kinect. If someone could provide me with a video I would appreciate it very much.
Your numbers are wrong. I responded to you earlier in the thread. Telling people that Kinect adds 150 ms to any game is bullshit.Man said:
And I'd like to see your source for wireless input lag, because the tests I posted showed that it was less than one frame, and indistinguishable from a wired joystick.
Why wouldn't it be able to simulate reins? It can do steering wheels (somewhat well), and reins wouldn't need to be that accurate.
And by voice commands I mean things used by people riding animals in real life.
InaudibleWhispa
Member
Endwar worked almost perfectly for me, and I have a pretty thick English accent (Geordie). There is a difference between software listening to and trying to interpret anything, and a game trying to differentiate between a handful of options like 'Fire', 'Speed Boost' etc. Granted, it still won't work 100% of the time and will be limited to certain languages and accents and noise pollution so it shouldn't be a major or sole component of control, but I think it can definitely have it's uses.Animator said:Agreed. I have used the dragon speech dictation software before and that is the most advanced implementation of speech recognition available today. Even that doesnt get %70 of what I say right. Add to that background\game voice + the accents people have and it just isn't a viable method for controlling games.
I think kinect will shine in "just dance" type games. I just dont see it become a viable control method for hardcore games. But I was wrong before so who knows..