B_Boss
Member
Its almost uncanny lol.
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
PS Eye = Kinect ?
- Thread starter DR3AM
- Start date
Its almost uncanny lol.
Alx
Member
Then it's a matter of resolution, not of the technology used for depth measurement. And it's not that hard to be close enough of kinect to have enough resolution to see fingers, so that's not a big issue (while the self-occlusion is)
That point was about latency, and a software solution usually adds some.
But the difficult part was precisely creating an affordable ToF technology and the software for full body tracking. While tracking a glowing bulb is dead easy in comparison.
Your point was "Sony has been working on those camera things for years". Well I don't feel that Sony are that experienced in computer vision, compared to many other companies and research labs. And there's nothing wrong with that actually, you don't need to be an expert in everything, but people should know that before praising them because the first time they saw a computer vision demo was Richard Marks playing with colored sticks.
I'm actually not mad at all. It's more amusing than anything. People who find every way possible to hate on the X1 have plenty of battles to fight and easily win. Resolution, Price, etc. Why grasp at straws for Kinect vs Eye if Kinect is something that you don't even care about?
PS4 has some clear advantages over the Xbox One, but the PS Camera is not one of them.
Neuromancer
Member
I don't really care about the camera in itself, but Move was seriously awesome technology that (unlike the Kinect 1 and the Wii Remote 1) actually delivered on its promises. Once some shooters and other games come out on PS4 for the Move I'll be as happy as a pig in mud. I have a feeling Octodad will also be doubly hilarious with the Move.
methane47
Member
We definitely know you're not paid... by Sony atleast.
One thing for sure is that they put a lot of work into Kinect 2.0 it even has 128MB of memory on the board & a fan to keep the processor & other parts of the Kinect cool.
Xbox One Kinect Teardown
Xbox One Kinect Teardown
godhandiscen
There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.
All I know is that I played Kinect sports rivals and it felt like I had complete control over my jet ski, a world apart from anything on Kinect for Xbox 360.
PS: After 10 races my arms were shredded though, and I exercise regularly, so I don't know if we are ready for full on VR.
PS: After 10 races my arms were shredded though, and I exercise regularly, so I don't know if we are ready for full on VR.
it's the 2nd time around & the console & kinect have been upgraded a lot we should see some amazing things from Kinect in the next few years Fitness games & dance games should be really big on Xbox One I'm not sure why the fitness stuff isn't getting a lot of attention right now.
It's crazy that the PlayStation 4 camera is getting a lot more attention than Kinect for the Xbox One just from the PlayRoom, before it seemed like the PS4 camera was going to have to prove it's worth against Kinect now it's the other way around & we are waiting for Kinect 2.0 to sell it's self. Ice T kicked a robot & everyone went crazy for the PlayRoom then people started live streaming from the PlayRoom & even more people went crazy as it made it's way onto the news sites & so on then more people went crazy & started doing crazy stuff in the PlayRoom & it made it's way back in the News again.
All of this stuff happened in the last 2 weeks Microsoft is going to have to do something to turn things around because no one seems to be talking about Kinect but the PlayStation Camera is all over the news & gaming sites taking all the attention.
Can someone create a new thread for this article:
Rumour: Could PS4 Copy Xbox One's Universal Remote Features?
Posted Tue 3rd Dec 2013 06:00 by Cale Stolle
PlayStation, watch TV
Sony has filed a series of patent applications straight out of its office in California. All six of the patents submitted by Sony Network Entertainment refer to the topic of using movements sensed with a motion sensor or camera, pointer movements and clicks, and touches that involve movements and multiple touches to control various household devices. The platform holder also named voice commands as something that could be employed to navigate other gadgets.
What hardware could this apply to? Sony specifically listed products such as IPTV, a disc player, a home theatre system, a phone, a tablet computer, a laptop computer, a desktop computer, a GPS receiver, [and] a games console. Perhaps most interesting is that this all sounds eerily similar to the Xbox Ones voice controlled television technology. Could the Japanese giant be attempting to match Microsoft in the entertainment arena?
Its too early to say. There are many patents published by manufacturers that never go anywhere, so this may just be a case of Sony registering an idea that isnt planned for development at all. Still, the parallels to the Xbox One are interesting especially with the platform holder pledging to improve the voice control functionality in its next generation console. Would you like the PS4 to manage your entertainment centre, or are you perfectly happy using different remotes? Turn us on in the comments section below.
http://www.pushsquare.com/news/2013/12/rumour_could_ps4_copy_xbox_ones_universal_remote_features
Images of the Depth Map & Point Cloud from someone who has Kinect 2.0 for Windows
First impressions of Kinect for Windows 2.0 pre-release
First impressions of Kinect for Windows 2.0 pre-release
They both have advantages over each other like the PS4 Camera at 1280 x 800 @ 60 FPS is moving about 10X the depth data per second as Kinect One at 512 x 424 @ 30 FPS but kinect is going to have a easier job of processing it because it's using Time of Flight & on board processors to render the depth map & point cloud while PS4 is using Stereo Vision & will have a harder time processing the depth map & point cloud.
Kinect One will always be limited to 30 FPS will PS4 Camera could track up to 240 FPS at it's lowest resolution & 120 FPS at 640 x 400 a resolution that's a little over the depth camera in the Kinect One.
Kinect is going to have the advantage of being more reliable in all lighting situations.
Actually it's 1280 x 800 @ 60 FPS X2 but I didn't add that since the depth data is being created by using the 2 cameras so I said around 10X instead of 18X the data.
Every situation isn't going to call for full body 3D tracking so we might end up with games like Fruit Ninja or Cut The Rope where the game only need to have fast hand tracking so the PS4 camera could end up kicking Kinect's ass with the 60 , 120 & 240 FPS tracking.
Not sure but I think this might be the sensor that's inside the 2 PlayStation 4 Cameras
OV9714
Color CMOS 720p HD Sensor with OmniPixel3-HS Technology
http://www.ovt.com/products/sensor.php?id=111
OV9714
Color CMOS 720p HD Sensor with OmniPixel3-HS Technology
http://www.ovt.com/products/sensor.php?id=111
Game. Set. Match.
I wonder how many people in this thread like you, forget to look at the date of the OP and realize the OP was comparing the PS4 Eye Camera to the Kinect1, not the Kinect2.
Bruh, Do you think it's possible for the PS4 Eye Camera to scan QR Codes like the Kinect 2? If low-end smartphones can do it, I can't why it'd be impossible for the PS4 to do it.
The Mics are in the bar going across the bottom of the kinect they also have their on chips. And about the PS4 Camera looking cheap that might be the case for the build quality but other cameras with 60, 120 & 240 FPS sensors are pretty high priced so I doubt if it's $7.50 to make.
The Mics are in the bar going across the bottom of the kinect they also have their on chips. And about the PS4 Camera looking cheap that might be the case for the build quality but other cameras with 60, 120 & 240 FPS sensors are pretty high priced so I doubt if it's $7.50 to make.
Yep! I've told folks several times, don't be fooled by the $60 price pf the PS4 Eye Camera. If you tried to buy a webcam with the same features as the PS4 Eye Camera, it's definitely gonna cost over $100.
Alx
Member
Framerate is no indication of build quality, it's a common feature of all CMOS sensors : you can access only part of the pixels and thus do it faster, unlike CCD where whatever you do, you need to grab the full image first. And CMOS is a cheaper solution than CCD (noisier, too).
So any CMOS camera has the ability to trade resolution for framerate.
It still needs a sensor that's able to process 1280 x 800 @ 60 FPS & sync up with another sensor that's 1280 x 800 @ 60 FPS
This is not standard if it was you would see cameras with higher frame rates everywhere right now & Kinect would even list higher frame rates at lower resolutions in it's specs.
It detects your body.
The PS4 Camera is using USB 3.0 but it's not using the standard USB 3.0 plug so you would have to cut the wire & figure out which wires connect then wait for someone to create drivers for the Camera.
Alx
Member
Common cameras don't use their ability to increase framerate because what people want is a high res picture, not a high framerate stream. The only reason to sacrifice resolution for framerate is to track fast moving items, which is only useful for gaming cameras. That's why no other camera manufacturer will bother including a 160x120@240fps mode.
As for synchronizing two streams, it's all a matter of having a common trigger for two images. That is specific, but nothing technically complex nor expensive.
High speed cameras are also used for Slow-motion , security cameras & other stuff.
High speed would be a nice bonus to add to the highlights of camera packages so if it's a given that a 1080P 60FPS camera can do 720P 120FPS , WVGA at 240FPS the camera makers would be adding it as a feature just because.
& like you said yourself high speed is needed for video games so tell me why Kinect One doesn't have a option for devs to use it at 256 x 212 @ 60FPS instead of 512 x 424 @ 30FPS when it's needed?
Can someone run a test for me?
About 2 weeks ago I was watching the PlayRoom live streams on Ustream & there was some people in their house & they all had colts on as if they was cold so maybe the house was really cold. anyway the I seen something strange the flying robot was in the corner shaking like he was cold too I thought I was tripping but the girl she was asking why the robot was shaking like it was cold too. I thought maybe it was just a glitch but it turns out that Sony has a patent for using thermal imaging for 3D motion tracking.
I know it's just a patent & it seem like Sony would have said something by now if their camera was this advanced but that shaking robot has me wondering if the PS4 Camera is the camera from the patent.
Can someone with the PS4 & Camera load up the PlayRoom & maybe point the camera out the door or open the window & point the camera out the window & see if the robot will shake?
About 2 weeks ago I was watching the PlayRoom live streams on Ustream & there was some people in their house & they all had colts on as if they was cold so maybe the house was really cold. anyway the I seen something strange the flying robot was in the corner shaking like he was cold too I thought I was tripping but the girl she was asking why the robot was shaking like it was cold too. I thought maybe it was just a glitch but it turns out that Sony has a patent for using thermal imaging for 3D motion tracking.
I know it's just a patent & it seem like Sony would have said something by now if their camera was this advanced but that shaking robot has me wondering if the PS4 Camera is the camera from the patent.
Can someone with the PS4 & Camera load up the PlayRoom & maybe point the camera out the door or open the window & point the camera out the window & see if the robot will shake?
Parapraxis
Member
Offer to send them some $ via paypal for having their heating bill go up
(would be pretty cool if true though)
Pristine_Condition
Member
Sony makes their own cameras and sensors. Hell, they even make the main cameras for Apple's devices. I highly doubt they would farm that out to one of their biggest rivals, since this is a core competency of the company.
Thermal imaging is very expensive! Though a single infared thermal sensor (1 pixel) is relatively cheap, but it would be easy to spot in the tear downs, and actually should be visible from the front as the sensor would likely be exposed. Doubt it has it. It could have a temperature probe on the pcb though, those are uber cheap, and could give basic ambient temps. Seems like a waste though IMO.
phosphor112
Banned
...how would that thermal imaging work? Have a link to the patent?
Pristine_Condition
Member
Where exactly does this "feeling" come from?
Sony has been a key player in digital imaging and computer vision for a long time. Most of which never had anything to do with the Playstation group.
Sony is one of a handful of worldwide leaders in professional video cameras and has been for a long time. In addition, they have a history of attempting to leverage that video experience to other potential and actualized products. For example, their facial recognition technology, originally developed for robotics, has produced many patents and is now a technology used in a lot of their camera products and in their Vegas video editing suite.
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/technology/technology/theme/sface_01.html
Reality is irrelevant.
Sony make higher end sensors with high megapixels for the high end market they no that they can't beat a company like Omnivision on price in the low resolution end they use Omnivision for the PS-Eye & the PS4 camera.
Pristine_Condition
Member
Sony make higher end sensors with high megapixels for the high end market they no that they can't beat a company like Omnivision on price in the low resolution end they use Omnivision for the PS-Eye & the PS4 camera.
Source for the PS4 camera info?
The chip on the back of the back of the board (
OV00580-B21G-1C ) belongs to OmniVision.
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/OV00580-B21G-1C/OV00580-B21G-1C-ND/4377121
Pristine_Condition
Member
The chip on the back of the back of the board (
OV00580-B21G-1C ) belongs to OmniVision.
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/OV00580-B21G-1C/OV00580-B21G-1C-ND/4377121
Interesting. I wonder why they contracted out when Sony now has loads of sensors in that size and range now? They weren't price-competitive in 2006 with the PSEye, but they are now.
If the sensor that I posted is really the sensor then I would say it's because that sensor was made for high speed stereo vision tracking for video games.
Alx
Member
The fact that all the computer vision algorithms used either in final products or tech demos are very simple : motion detection, face detection, tracking of colored objects. Anybody with a short experience in that field watching those features can immediately understand how they work and reproduce them in a short time, actually those could be good subjects to train students.
Sony did a good work mostly in engineering those solutions, especially on the cameras (optimizing the use of the bandwidth for best framerate and image quality), but the scientific part is nothing groundbreaking.
The face recognition thing is the closest thing of being "state of the art", but it isn't anything new either.
Something to think about if the pixels are sensitive enough to take in visible light at 240FPS 320 x 192 the pixels must be really sensitive to light so slowing it down & letting in 8X the light for 30FPS would bring in IR from the far IR spectrum.
The sensor that I think is in the PS4 camera pixels are 3x3 macrons each & the sensor supports binning so the camera can use the pixels in a cluster of 4 pixels to create a more sensitive super pixel that will be 6x6 macrons at a lower resolution going from 1280x800 with 3x3 macrons to 640x400 with 6x6 macrons.
6 macron pixels should be enough to see life in your body.
That's not how light absorption works.