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PS3 Firmware Update 3.21 of preventing piracy by removing Linux.

R

RedNumberFive

Banned
Ranger X said:
BC PS2 is already lost but will also comeback. They won't cut something they can see useful. Sony will want to sell you PS2 games again on PSN so you can bet PS2 emu will be back.
Click to expand...

Agreed, but I have a feeling that PS3 SW BC will be limited to downloads only because of "security reasons". They'll need an excuse to sell you your games again.
 
A

Ashes

Banned
"To use the Linux operating system, you must update the PS3™ system software to version 1.60 or later."

Didn't come at launch? so it was only enabled via firmware...
 
M

Mudkips

Banned
Leondexter said:
You're approaching it from the wrong angle, as people often do when trying to justify the removal of rights. If you work it backwards like that, assuming that possible immoral actions make all preceding actions also immoral, then every single possible action there is would be immoral. That's ridiculous. That would make, in your example, buying said appliance immoral.

The fact that you can misuse a product does not mean that corporations can dictate what constitutes misuse. All they can do is inform you of their intended use, as I said, and allow you to assume responsibility for using it otherwise.
Click to expand...

Reading comprehension, you don't have it.

The right to do something is good.
That something isn't right or wrong because you have the right to do it.
It is right or wrong for what it is.

You have to separate the right to do something from the act itself.
Otherwise, you lose the right to do both bad AND good things when others use the "I have the right to do it" excuse to do bad things.

People here are arguing "it's mine I'll do what I want". Hiding behind that defense just lumps all things enabled by your rights together - good and bad. The right itself is then attacked in order to remove the bad.

I'm sorry if you feel that you shouldn't have to worry about what others do, but the fact is your rights will be attacked because of the bad apples. You have to separate yourself from them, and you cannot hide behind a common defense if you wish to retain your rights.
 
U

Unregistered007

Banned
RedNumberFive said:
Agreed, but I have a feeling that PS3 SW BC will be limited to downloads only because of "security reasons". They'll need an excuse to sell you your games again.
Click to expand...

ya I think SONY is waiting till PS2 sales dry up after that they will think of PS2 Games on PS3.
 
A

Ashes

Banned
Mudkips said:
I'm sorry if you feel that you shouldn't have to worry about what others do, but the fact is your rights will be attacked because of the bad apples. You have to separate yourself from them, and you cannot hide behind a common defense if you wish to retain your rights.
Click to expand...

You either work for the government or you should. ;)
 
DryvBy

DryvBy

Member
deepbrown said:
I understand - but they also advertise the product to be secure - which is surely more important. How else should they stop Geohot and hackers? Find a fix? Sure...but that takes time. Maybe Linux will come back...
Click to expand...

If Linux comes back, I end my complaint right now, lol. Taking something down to fix is different than losing a feature all-together. Geohot put this infomation out earlier than last week. I think we've even had a firmware update since then. Why now? Why April 1st?

Again, I go back to the fake game. If a security hole is in MW2 (lol, I'm sure there is) with servers being shut down because of it, and you paid for the game, would you think the same way? Because it's only a matter of time if you let one company walk on you, everyone will. You know, there was a time when in-game ads were considered a deadly sin in gaming. Now it's just accepted. I don't want to accept the removal of features just because some basement loser finds a security flaw that they should fix, but don't want to...
 
M

Massa

Member
deepbrown said:
I understand - but they also advertise the product to be secure - which is surely more important. How else should they stop Geohot and hackers? Find a fix? Sure...but that takes time. Maybe Linux will come back...
Click to expand...

It's not up to you or Sony to decide what's more important. People who use the OtherOS feature paid $600, $500 or $400 just like everyone else and so they have every right to use their system in the ways they intended after Sony advertising that it could do these things.

And if they're removing OtherOS now that no real exploit exists or is even close to existing then it's simply not going to come back, ever.
 
S

Shambles

Member
plagiarize said:
i hope it happens, but the number of people that still think PS2 emulation on the PS3 is right around the corner is crazy.
Click to expand...

PS2 emulation in the form of having to re-buy PS2 titles from the PSN. Not the sort of B/C where you can pop in your PS2 disks and play them on your PS3. They'll try to leech every penny out of you that they can.
 
F

Fersis

It is illegal to Tag Fish in Tag Fishing Sanctuaries by law 38.36 of the GAF Wildlife Act
They better dont remove my extra february 29th !!! >8(
 
P

plagiarize

Banned
Shambles said:
PS2 emulation in the form of having to re-buy PS2 titles from the PSN. Not the sort of B/C where you can pop in your PS2 disks and play them on your PS3. They'll try to leech every penny out of you that they can.
Click to expand...
see i've been hearing people saying that this is going to happen for YEARS now. and it still hasn't happened. presuming that it's definately going to happen just seems to set you up for disapointment.

same as presuming that linux isn't gone for good. hey, you know, it might not be, but i'd presume it is and get over it.
 
T

Terrordactyl

Member
So no other features have been announced? I'm crossing my fingers for a stealth feature update. As for the OtherOS I don't really care, I hate the idea that they are taking away something they sold the console with, but it doesn't effect me so I can't be bothered to care.
 
B

badcrumble

Member
Terrordactyl said:
So no other features have been announced? I'm crossing my fingers for a stealth feature update. As for the OtherOS I don't really care, I hate the idea that they are taking away something they sold the console with, but it doesn't effect me so I can't be bothered to care.
Click to expand...
The 'stealth features' are that the SDK and debug/devkit firmwares are capable of switching on 3D output. It doesn't sound like there's anything for the retail firmware.
 
K

Killthee

helped a brotha out on multiple separate occasions!
Ashes1396 said:
"To use the Linux operating system, you must update the PS3™ system software to version 1.60 or later."

Didn't come at launch? so it was only enabled via firmware...
Click to expand...
Other OS has been available since launch/FW 1.0.
 
T

Terrordactyl

Member
badcrumble said:
The 'stealth features' are that the SDK and debug/devkit firmwares are capable of switching on 3D output. It doesn't sound like there's anything for the retail firmware.
Click to expand...

Hmm, well that's unfortunate, I'd really like to have my friends list be collapseable and sortable ala MSN messenger a few years back (have not used it any time recently so I don't know what it looks like now)
 
D

Dragona Akehi

Retired
Mudkips said:
Reading comprehension, you don't have it.

The right to do something is good.
That something isn't right or wrong because you have the right to do it.
It is right or wrong for what it is.

You have to separate the right to do something from the act itself.
Otherwise, you lose the right to do both bad AND good things when others use the "I have the right to do it" excuse to do bad things.

People here are arguing "it's mine I'll do what I want". Hiding behind that defense just lumps all things enabled by your rights together - good and bad. The right itself is then attacked in order to remove the bad.

I'm sorry if you feel that you shouldn't have to worry about what others do, but the fact is your rights will be attacked because of the bad apples. You have to separate yourself from them, and you cannot hide behind a common defense if you wish to retain your rights.
Click to expand...

I understand what you're saying but I'm not sure you understand my point.

If the choice is "allow hacking that may lead to piracy, but homebrewers attempt to prevent" or "block OtherOS and all homebrew activities" I'm going to choose the former.

I'd prefer a third choice of "allow hacking but prevent piracy", but we live in reality.
 
T

Terrordactyl

Member
Dragona Akehi said:
I understand what you're saying but I'm not sure you understand my point.

If the choice is "allow hacking that may lead to piracy, but homebrewers attempt to prevent" or "block OtherOS and all homebrew activities" I'm going to choose the former.

I'd prefer a third choice of "allow hacking but prevent piracy", but we live in reality.
Click to expand...

I don't think they are willing to take any chances after the clusterfuck of piracy the PSP is going through. I can't really blame them for taking these extreme measures for this reason.
 
D

Dragona Akehi

Retired
Terrordactyl said:
I don't think they are willing to take any chances after the clusterfuck of piracy the PSP is going through. I can't really blame them for taking these extreme measures for this reason.
Click to expand...

PSP's woes have far more to do with Sony's own actions rather than CFW.
 
T

Terrordactyl

Member
Dragona Akehi said:
PSP's woes have far more to do with Sony's own actions rather than CFW.
Click to expand...

Of course, but it seems like they are trying to quickly and permanantly remedy the issue. As opposed to making their consumers happy and coming up with a longterm solution that could possibly be compromised in the future.

Either way I just bought a Slim and have a 60 gig being used as a netflix device in my daughters room, so it wont be updating. CFW on a PS3 would be glorious, think of the HTPC possibilities.
 
C

CrayzeeCarl

Member
missile said:
nolinux.jpg


-- from PSN user TTDegs
Click to expand...
I love these. :lol
 
U

UntoldDreams

Member
A lot of this comes down to Kuturagi's original vision.
(It was in a Japanese article I don't have the link anymore but this is true stuff)

His "Dream" (oh krazy ken you wabbit) was for Japan/Sony to create a new computer architecture.

He dreamed that the Cell Processor would be the first step towards seeding Earth with a new architecture which could rival Apple computer and the like.

These Cell computers would be capable of joining in a GRID and having ridiculous computational power much like Folding@Home does but more organized and controlled.

Imagine a company of 200 people where they all had these "Kuturagi computers" which if you wanted you could join them together. It would mean every small company out there would have some form of Super computing power readily available.

That, was his dream and it was not inherently wrong it actually could have worked except for the simple fact that Sony ran out of money and the economy took a nosedive.

*** It just wasn't the right timing for him and maybe Sony wasn't the right company

Too bad I think if the timing had been different Google would have jumped on the chance to seed Earth with their Linux based Google OS.

Ken was a visionary despite his crazy moments.
 
V

Vorador

Banned
My guess is that Sony doesn't want to even bother patching a possible hole in the linux->hypervisor engine. Since that functionality was removed altogether for the Slim, the head of the firmware development division though "fuck that, i'm not going to put manpower into patching something our current retail packs don't even support, i will just remove it."
 
U

UntoldDreams

Member
As far as security holes I think it all came down to budget.

They could quite easily continue to fight it out by allocating resources to keeping linux safe.

Network validation to lock out consoles.
Perpetually updating hardware with tweaks to close holes.

This is still physically possible for them to do so if supporting Linux on PS3 was a strategically good direction.

With Ken's vision basically DEAD for a new computing architecture there is very small benefit for Sony and clearly a lot of negative costs associated with continuing.
 
I

iapetus

Scary Euro Man
Vorador said:
My guess is that Sony doesn't want to even bother patching a possible hole in the linux->hypervisor engine. Since that functionality was removed altogether for the Slim, the head of the firmware development division though "fuck that, i'm not going to put manpower into patching something our current retail packs don't even support, i will just remove it."
Click to expand...

This appears to be a mistake, depending on what comes out on the legal side of things.
 
D

Dragona Akehi

Retired
Ashes1396 said:
Wait... are you...saying what I think your saying?
Click to expand...

I'm not saying that piracy is inevitable with homebrew and hacking, but if there's a pirate will there will always be a pirate way.

It would be more beneficial for companies to encourage casual pirates to purchase games rather than attempt to treat every other legitimate paying customer as a criminal. I wish I could find my post where I talk about the three types of pirates and how to best to combat them. Bahhhh. Google failed me but I won out in the end:


Dragona Akehi said:
Well first of all let's break down the categories of pirates.

There are three real types of pirates:

-The big international cartels that pirate games or media and sell the copies for profit
-The hardcore pirate contingent that wouldn't buy media even if it came with a goose that laid golden eggs
-The casual pirate

The first two are never going to go legit. Fortunately they're probably the smallest percentage of pirates (though the first tends to sell to the third group... which is a problem).

Therefore if I was in charge of a publisher, I'd essentially cut my losses on the first two and attempt to convert the third: the casual pirate. Casual pirates tend to do so because it's easy and often is the same or superior version of the media (ie no DRM), or because it is not available DAY ONE in their region.

Now, most publishers go for crazier and crazier DRM in attempt to block this segment of pirates. It probably works for a few. But it really doesn't solve the problem. Casual pirates will just find a crack or wait until one is readily available rather than purchasing something just because it has DRM.

My solution would be to make the retail, legitimate package to be the more appealing one. Whether that's active community support for PC games, or the addition at no extra cost of certain freebies such as official soundtracks or other "nice" freebies like figurines, ensuring that countries that play your games can get them at the same time (or at least a reasonable timeframe), would all help to staunch the flow of piracy.

Companies are already doing this (or at least acknowledging it): Valve and Atlus are two good examples. Valve realises that people pirate their games in Russia because there are no legitimate copies for sale until months well after its original release. Atlus has been in the habit lately of including "spoils" for the first run of their releases, which both aid in encouraging already purchasing users to buy earlier, and perhaps also converts a few casual pirates into the legit purchasing customer.
Click to expand...
 
S

see5harp

Member
Dragona Akehi said:
PSP's woes have far more to do with Sony's own actions rather than CFW.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Look at PSP system sales people. Software saleswise both 360 and DS probably each add up to much more money than PSP software piracy.
 
V

Vorador

Banned
iapetus said:
This appears to be a mistake, depending on what comes out on the legal side of things.
Click to expand...

Well, dropping functionalities advertised in the box is a legal mistake in the first place, regardless of EULA or whatever. Things might get ugly if a class action lawsuit was brought.
 
A

Ashes

Banned
Okay, we're going round and round... let me go into bullet point mode:

  • As far as we know, there are no pirated games for ps3? this is true, yes?
  • Second, some open box thinking led to ps3 having Other operating system enabled. Causing limited interest from homebrew community. Am I right so far?
  • But now corporate hate/unfairness to individual consumer rights plus (put whatever grievance you want here- for argument's sake, let's say something positive, id est great homebrew potential), is going to mean that the homebrew community is going to work day and night to get custom firmware available. Thus opening flood gates for piracy. Is this the line of thinking that some people are having?
  • Also, some people won't upgrade their firmware because they are waiting for custom firmware...
  • sony went out of their way to tell people: other operating system feature will be gone if you upgrade firmware, so basically, don't upgrade if you want that functionality.

Can't you erase firmwares? and reinstall custom firmwares when they become available...?
 
3

3rdman

Member
Shambles said:
PS2 emulation in the form of having to re-buy PS2 titles from the PSN. Not the sort of B/C where you can pop in your PS2 disks and play them on your PS3. They'll try to leech every penny out of you that they can.
Click to expand...
Unless Sony figures out a way to make BC a software only solution, I doubt you'll see many PS2 titles ever appear...What you are asking for is basically PS2 ports and I just can't see them as very profitable.
 
K

Killthee

helped a brotha out on multiple separate occasions!
Ashes1396 said:
Can't you erase firmwares? and reinstall custom firmwares when they become available...?
Click to expand...
You can't downgrade, you can only upgrade the firmware. Only Sony has the ability to revert a system to an old firmware and they don't offer that service to anybody.
 
C

Commanche Raisin Toast

Member
Dragona Akehi said:
I'm not saying that piracy is inevitable with homebrew and hacking, but if there's a pirate will there will always be a pirate way.

It would be more beneficial for companies to encourage casual pirates to purchase games rather than attempt to treat every other legitimate paying customer as a criminal. I wish I could find my post where I talk about the three types of pirates and how to best to combat them. Bahhhh. Google failed me but I won out in the end:
Click to expand...

@yourbigassquote: i can't like this enough. this is the way i've kind of seen things, and i even noticed it in action when i noticed which times i actually bought PC games, which specific cases i bought special/limited/ultimate versions of PS3 games, and when i decided to either wait for price drops, or in case of PC games- just find some links and get a cracked copy.

it all came down to convenience overcoming the attractiveness of the offer. if the edge goes to the retail product i almost always buy it. if it's just not worth the price, i usually download or wait for a price drop. and if it's HEAVILY in favor of the retail product (ie: ultimate edition of GOW3 i just got) then im even willing to dish out upwards of $100 for A FUCKING VIDEOGAME. (i'd also like to note that steam games that i can download as many times as i want, and are usually cheaper than retail, are about 95% of PC games i purchase for those very reasons)

so with this linux thing, we have hackers/pirates that are trying to do the leg work and get the PS3 to where it's more "convenient" for "casual pirates" to obtain a PS3 game illegally than for them to buy it retail or off PSN. what is sony to do about this? strip features and "punish" all users? lower prices? (i don't think that's the ultimate answer) or as you said, make it more attractive to the consumer to BUY the game than the "convenient" option.

although i do think prices need to lower on PSN specifically, i don't think that will ever be the ultimate answer because if they just keep lowering prices each time piracy surges then pirates will figure out that they control prices. you can't pirate a figurine, you can't download a (official) strategy guide, you can't rip/upload sticker booklets and other goodies. with the cuts that devs/publishers/etc. make off each game sold, i don't see how it would be so hard to throw in tiny extras like that with a $60 game. (HD tax my ass- PC games have been made with huge resolutions for years and years and didn't charge us extra)

/oopsrant
 
F

firehawk12

Subete no aware
You know what though? The PS3 does almost everything you need it to do without mods or exploits - play games from any region (for the most part) and stream media.

I don't know. I use Linux when I want to watch mkv files on my big monitor, but otherwise I just can't get as worked up about this as much as Nintendo trying to constantly kill HBC on the Wii.
 
J

jepjepjep

Member
Do you need to have the latest firmware to watch Netflix?

I'm thinking of not updating when the new firmware comes out, but I don't think I can do without Netflix support.
 
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