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[Azerach]

I think it's interesting to contrast this with Microsoft removing Xbox Live support from all original Xbox games, which people are much less upset about. How come? Because Microsoft is compensating the affected parties to some degree, and because the change allows a number of tangible benefits for all Xbox 360 users.

Even if you grant that the removal of OtherOS was required to secure the PS3's security, and that such a thing matters, there are still better ways to handle the problem than to yank the whole thing out and dismiss all complaints by saying, "Well, it won't affect the majority of users."

Difference being that MS had all the time in the world to plan how they shut down the xbox games and what compensation they would give for this action, with Sony the situation took a quick 180 degree turn in a matter of months so... yeah, pretty bad comparison.

 

[hirokazu]

I think it's interesting to contrast this with Microsoft removing Xbox Live support from all original Xbox games, which people are much less upset about. How come? Because Microsoft is compensating the affected parties to some degree, and because the change allows a number of tangible benefits for all Xbox 360 users.

Even if you grant that the removal of OtherOS was required to secure the PS3's security, and that such a thing matters, there are still better ways to handle the problem than to yank the whole thing out and dismiss all complaints by saying, "Well, it won't affect the majority of users."

Xbox Live is a service, dude. It was gonna shut down one day, sooner or later.

If I buy a product that allows me to access a service, I'd understand that the service may cease to operate at a future date. If I buy a product that performs certain functions, I don't expect these functions to be withdrawn at the manufacturer's discretion for their own interests.

 

[J Tourettes]

Xbox Live is a service, dude. It was gonna shut down one day, sooner or later.

If I buy a product that allows me to access a service, I'd understand that the service may cease to operate at a future date. If I buy a product that performs certain functions, I don't expect these functions to be withdrawn at the manufacturer's discretion for their own interests.

I think that's the key point that many people are missing. If you purchase a product that has an advertised function which is later removed, that rides roughshod over your rights as a consumer, plain and simple.

I don't understand the defenders of Sony as it's of zero benefit to them individually.

 

[AndyD]

From where I'm posting we don't even need to get more rights. We have the rights. Companies like Sony try to circumvent them, and hope that we don't know enough to exercise them when they abuse them.

Right. In the US that is not the case though. I said this before, in the EU you pay more but you get more protections. In theory. And based on your individual experience, also in practice.

Xbox Live is a service, dude. It was gonna shut down one day, sooner or later.

If I buy a product that allows me to access a service, I'd understand that the service may cease to operate at a future date. If I buy a product that performs certain functions, I don't expect these functions to be withdrawn at the manufacturer's discretion for their own interests.

In this case its a choice between accessing the feature (OtherOS) and accessing the service, PSN. There are no rights to accessing PSN. While there may be consumer rights to accessing the OtherOS depending on where you live.

 

[obonicus]

Isn't making this distinction between services and products just another way for people to apologize for corporations? I get that with services corporations might have more legal protection, and we might have less room to complain, but it doesn't change the underlying shittiness. Either way, product you bought is having its features reduced at the manufacturer's discretion.

 

[missile]

... I'll tell you how we lose. We lose if it's determined that we never own the hardware and software we purchase - we only hold it under license and that license can be changed or revoked at any time. We lose if a company has the right to take away functionality that we paid for without compensation or consultation. We lose if companies can make any anti-consumer moves they like and get away with it because "Ooh! Pirates!". We lose if we reach the point that a lot of people like you seem to have reached where we honestly believe that anything large companies say or do must be right, and consumers should just suck it up.

Well said.

The Obvious is the most difficult to grasp for most people, unfortunately.

 

[fortified_concept]

Yeah I'm gonna go with iapetus on this. If corporations think they have the right to remove features whenever they think it's beneficial for them we're screwed. This is a shitty move by Sony and I hope they pay for it.

 

[iapetus]

In this case its a choice between accessing the feature (OtherOS) and accessing the service, PSN. There are no rights to accessing PSN. While there may be consumer rights to accessing the OtherOS depending on where you live.

Except you lose more than just PSN access, including the ability to play DRMed content and the ability to play games which require recent firmware. These are not services.

 

[missile]

This isn't evidence, if they needed X number of developers/QA staff/etc. to work for Y number of days on the new hardware to get it up and running that would be the sort of reason they wouldn't implement it on the Slim.

Cost wasn't a major reason to justify the removal of the OtherOS; John Koller,
Sony's director of hardware marketing, answered ars technica on August 18,
2009, after being asked "Why was the ability to install Linux removed from the
system?", as follows;

John: "There are a couple of reasons. We felt we wanted to move forward with
the [Game] OS we have now. If anyone wants to use previous models and change
the OS, they can do so. ... We wanted to standardize our OS." -- [Ref]

Evidence. No?

But how many users is that?

How many user play MGO or WipEout HD online? Only a few, about 1k a day, if
ever! So it's better to shut down the servers because only about 1k are
playing? But now 'you' say; 'wait ... wait ... wait, they paid upfront for
the cost to maintain the server.' Ahhh! So way can't the same business model
work for the OtherOS?

According to Shara, about 15.000+ user have bought the PS2 Linux kit in 2004
--> for about $300 each.

Today we don't need to buy a kit since the PS3 includes everything needed.
And since the OtherOS is for free, and with respect to the 15.000+ PS2Linux
users, who actually bought the kit, I expect that there are about 100k - 250k
user using the OtherOS.

Ok. So it doesn't pay off if at least 100k users will pay about $100 (= $10
million dollars) to adapt and to maintain the OtherOS for years? Even about
$50 to $60 (~ price of a retail game) would do the job. No? C'mon.

I'm not denying you wouldn't pay for it, but no doubt if Sony did what you proposed there would be a load of people complaining that they had to pay for it.

Only those will complain who never use it anyway.

Since the OtherOS doesn't produced any revenues, one cannot expected to get
the feature for free esp. not if it cost money for Sony. So I think there is
no problem paying for that feature. And by the way, we actually paid for it.
Anyway.

Plus if some minimal number of people do pay for it, then it's a negative sum effort for Sony.

How so? If only a few use it, then most won't care.

... All any big company will think is that the end goal is to get pirate games on it. Even if that is completely wrong.

If this would be true, one would never produce a console to begin with.

You don't have to hit enter every time your sentence reaches the end of the text box.

...

What's
with
the
line
breaks ?

Oh, is it possible to use more than 80 characters per line?

Reading a text in a more column-like fashion is a little bit more effective,
ask the Asians, and also more pleasing despite you have to scroll a bit. And
on the other hand I'm influenced by programming-style and by writing
plain-text messages quite a lot. There is nothing better than a fixed-font
and 80 characters per line. Anyone? ...

This.

 

[Massa]

Except you lose more than just PSN access, including the ability to play DRMed content and the ability to play games which require recent firmware. These are not services.

Yeah. This argument reminds me of Sony claiming the clock error was a PSN issue when it was in fact a bug in the hardware (which, by the way, won't fixed for people who stick to OtherOS).

 

[-MB-]

Looks liek they implemented a new fw detection scheme serverside, because ps3proxy is not working anymore, and I can see a bunch of unknown new http links it refers to during login.

Ah well, it was fun while it lasted.

 

[jorma]

Yeah I'm gonna go with iapetus on this. If corporations think they have the right to remove features whenever they think it's beneficial for them we're screwed. This is a shitty move by Sony and I hope they pay for it.

And neogaf explodes in shock and awe. Fortified turns out to be anti corporatism. Who would have thunk?

 

[missile]

Sony Admits Wrong?

Sony Admits Wrong

by lee98632

Posted on April 12, 2010 at 11:36 AM

Sony Produced and manufactured the Play Station 3 console and in doing so they allowed te users to use Linux. They sold the system to the consumers with the feature "Other OS" . this allowed the consumers to Use Linux

In this Phone call you will hear the Rep saying that "He usndertands that Sony's TOS does not grant them the right to remove the feature "Other OS".

The system was sold specifically to gather customers in and then switch the product. this is called Bait and Switch.

It is illegal and I want to know how companies get away with it.

This is a prime example of bait and switch.

How can Sony be allowed to do this to consumers and not face legal issues.

There has been suggestions 1 consumer has already sued . Where are the consumers rights?

PS that commercial where the person is engrossed on the game and ignores the cameraman, is a metaphor that sony is ignoring its customers.

[Ref]


// A Facebook group
Removal of "Other OS" feature on PS3 is unacceptable!!

 

[JudgeN]

Xbox Live is a service, dude. It was gonna shut down one day, sooner or later.

If I buy a product that allows me to access a service, I'd understand that the service may cease to operate at a future date. If I buy a product that performs certain functions, I don't expect these functions to be withdrawn at the manufacturer's discretion for their own interests.

This is BS, people PAID for Xbox live and Microsoft took it away without compensating them and without really warning them. Its the same damn thing here but when Microsoft does it goes unnoticed but when Sony does it you get a 50 page thread. If you paid someone to clean your house once a week for a year and they stop showing up after 3 months is that ok with you? That Microsoft thread should have had the same outcry this thread has but for some reason it didn't get it, hell alot of threads should have (Looks at EA).

 

[corrosivefrost]

Looks liek they implemented a new fw detection scheme serverside, because ps3proxy is not working anymore, and I can see a bunch of unknown new http links it refers to during login.

Ah well, it was fun while it lasted.

I came in here to see if it was just me... was working last night, but as of this morning, no proxy or dns change seems to help.

Part of me wishes I could leverage my pre-3.21 fw 60gb fat as a marketing technique and cover most of the cost of a new 250gb slim... but there doesn't seem to be a market for non-updated fats.

 

[CozMick]

On one hand you have the removal of "Install other OS"

and

On the other hand you have Pirates reaping the rewards, with there hacks and torrented games.

It's a god damned no-brainer!

Do you guys not play Xbox LIVE?

Spoiler

Specifically Modern Warfare 2 on 360

It really is that simple for me.

 

[railGUN]

This is BS, people PAID for Xbox live and Microsoft took it away without compensating them and without really warning them. Its the same damn thing here but when Microsoft does it goes unnoticed but when Sony does it you get a 50 page thread. If you paid someone to clean your house 1 week for a year and they stop showing up after 3 months is that ok with you? That Microsoft thread should have had the same outcry this thread has but for some reason it didn't get it, hell alot of threads should have (Looks at EA).

:lol

 

[CadetMahoney]

Looks liek they implemented a new fw detection scheme serverside, because ps3proxy is not working anymore, and I can see a bunch of unknown new http links it refers to during login.

Ah well, it was fun while it lasted.

That was bound to happen anyway.

 

[CircleOfFire]

This is BS, people PAID for Xbox live and Microsoft took it away without compensating them and without really warning them. Its the same damn thing here but when Microsoft does it goes unnoticed but when Sony does it you get a 50 page thread. If you paid someone to clean your house 1 week for a year and they stop showing up after 3 months is that ok with you? That Microsoft thread should have had the same outcry this thread has but for some reason it didn't get it, hell alot of threads should have (Looks at EA).

I was gonna mention the same thing, this has kicked off way more than it should've done in relation to the things you've mentioned.

 

[hyp]

so what happens to my linux partition if i go through with this update? anyone know if the space gets reallocated to my main PS3 partition?

 

[Lain]

so what happens to my linux partition if i go through with this update? anyone know if the space gets reallocated to my main PS3 partition?

Lost unless you reformat the HDD.

 

[Infinite Justice]

IIRC it doesn't and that space will stay there until you format the PS3 HD.

 

[theplayer]

just stop over half you did,t use it

 

[hyp]

Lost unless you reformat the HDD.

fuckin fail.

 

[Oozinator]

Looks liek they implemented a new fw detection scheme serverside, because ps3proxy is not working anymore, and I can see a bunch of unknown new http links it refers to during login.

Ah well, it was fun while it lasted.

Just noticed that too. Sony likes to rub their shenanigans in our face, eh ?

Still won't update, waiting for a new proxy tool or will buy a new Slim as a last resort.

 

[Mudkips]

just stop over half you did,t use it

This shit again?

I've still got me fat un-updated.
It will stay that way.

 

[Kalren]

I'll tell you how we lose. We lose if it's determined that we never own the hardware and software we purchase - we only hold it under license and that license can be changed or revoked at any time. We lose if a company has the right to take away functionality that we paid for without compensation or consultation. We lose if companies can make any anti-consumer moves they like and get away with it because "Ooh! Pirates!". We lose if we reach the point that a lot of people like you seem to have reached where we honestly believe that anything large companies say or do must be right, and consumers should just suck it up.

You are the voice of reason.

This trumps any argument that can be made for Sony.

 

[Azure Dream]

On one hand you have the removal of "Install other OS"

and

On the other hand you have Pirates reaping the rewards, with there hacks and torrented games.

It's a god damned no-brainer!

Do you guys not play Xbox LIVE?

Spoiler

Specifically Modern Warfare 2 on 360

It really is that simple for me.

So... Microsoft can fix Live... by removing OtherOS?

Nobody was "reaping rewards" when Sony yanked the OtherOS function. Stopping piracy was just a great excuse to do it. Like this thread has said over and over.

 

[CozMick]

So... Microsoft can fix Live... by removing OtherOS?

Nobody was "reaping rewards" when Sony yanked the OtherOS function. Stopping piracy was just a great excuse to do it. Like this thread has said over and over.

But they {the pirate} maybe would have been reaping the rewards if the OtherOS option wasn't removed, meaning PSN would be as vunerable as XBL is today.

I welcome the removal if it keeps hacking/piracy away from PSN.

But I also feel for those that used the option.

 

[Azure Dream]

But they {the pirate} maybe would have been reaping the rewards if the OtherOS option wasn't removed, meaning PSN would be as vunerable as XBL is today.

I welcome the removal if it keeps hacking/piracy from PSN.

But I also feel for those that used the option.

But there are security flaws in all sorts of system functions. It's a risk no matter what. There could be a Blu-Ray movie exploit somewhere along the line, or a modified save file trick. One of the first ways people hacked the PSP, if memory serves, was by exploiting the TIFF format in the image viewer.

They had to know that going in, but they sold the function as part of the product anyway. Then even when there was a revision of the console that lacked it, they assured people that it wouldn't be retroactively removed from consoles that already supported it. Then they did just that.

 

[frontieruk]

if I don't update the firmware all future bluray releases will work right?

 

[Panajev2001a]

if I don't update the firmware all future bluray releases will work right?

Some of them might not.

 

[Mudkips]

if I don't update the firmware all future bluray releases will work right?

Short answer: "Yes" with a "but".
Long answer: "No" with a "if".


Yes, they will work. But the PS3's keys could be revoked any time in the future, and publishers can decide whether or not to lock out PS3s.

No, you can't guarantee that. If the PS3's keys are ever extracted, the BDA can revoke them, and newer movies can blacklist the PS3's old keys. Sony will have to update the firmware with a new set of keys to allow those movies to play. This is what happens with PowerDVD about every fucking week. Hackers hack about, get the keys, and then Cyberlink releases an update with new keys and a slightly better method at hiding them from the hackers. Hackers use the keys to remove all content protection from the movies and rip them.

 

[theplayer]

This shit again?

I've still got me fat un-updated.
It will stay that way.

why for hacks moding you signed tos you dont have a pc to run it i have one pc and dual boot

stop crying

 

[missile]

I came in here to see if it was just me... was working last night, but as of this morning, no proxy or dns change seems to help. ...

I can confirm that the method stated here (hint: 67.202.81.137) doesn't
work anymore, unfortunately.

 

[frontieruk]

Short answer: "Yes" with a "but".
Long answer: "No" with a "if".


Yes, they will work. But the PS3's keys could be revoked any time in the future, and publishers can decide whether or not to lock out PS3s.

No, you can't guarantee that. If the PS3's keys are ever extracted, the BDA can revoke them, and newer movies can blacklist the PS3's old keys. Sony will have to update the firmware with a new set of keys to allow those movies to play. This is what happens with PowerDVD about every fucking week. Hackers hack about, get the keys, and then Cyberlink releases an update with new keys and a slightly better method at hiding them from the hackers. Hackers use the keys to remove all content protection from the movies and rip them.

hmmmmmmmm I'll sit on the old firmware until blurays are affected or GT5 comes out which ever comes first. Thank-you

 

[test_account]

I essentially said the same thing using different words.

Ok, i understand

Which somehow contradicts the amoral thing discussed earlier.

What was this? Unfortunately i havnt read all posts in this thread, so i might have missed something.

Read Shara's comment again. Was there any word about that PS2Linux must have
been a muti-billion dollar business to justify its existents?

No, that is true as you say. But Linux on the PS2 wasnt a feature in the PS2 that was used for exploits (maybe it was possible to use Linux on PS2 to exploit though, but i havnt heard of it at least). I also think that there were already modchips out for the PS2 when the Linux PS2 kits were sold as well if i am not mistaken. If it turned out that the Linux PS2 kit was the first thing that could be used to exploit the PS2, then i think that this Linux PS2 kit would have been pulled from the market to be honest.

So this is probably where the difference is between Linux on PS2 and Linux on the PS2, that Linux on the PS2 wasnt used to hack the PS2 (at least from what i know), but Linux on the PS3 was/is used to hack the PS3.

Yes. There is some software mechanism involved within the hypervisor the
exploit relies on. That part can be changed with future firmware updates.

Do you have any more info regarding this? I havnt heard about this before. I thought that the PS3 exploit was done via hardware hacking (by sending those 40ns pulses) and since it isnt possible to patch the OtherOS feature, Sony removed it. With "it isnt possible to patch the OtherOS feature" i mean that there wasnt a exploit in the OtherOS feature itself that was used, it was Linux itself that was used and the OtherOS feature just boots up Linux on the PS3, at least that is how i understood it

lol

I think we differ from here a lot. If you can't thing of any, well....

Why "lol" and what do you mean with "well...."?

What feature(s) people miss from the XMB can variate from person to person, so we are probably different here as you say, that is true, nothing wrong with that I can think of things that i personally would like to see in the XMB, but i was just wondering which features that you personally mean are missing from the XMB when you said "There are so many things missing for the XMB." To me it sounded like you ment that there were maybe at least 10 things that you were missing from the XMB, so i wanted to ask

Personally i would like to see a feature in the XMB that wont let anyone send me a friend request. I dont want random people that i have played with online to send me friend request. It isnt really a feature that i need, but i wouldnt mind having it. I also wouldnt mind having cross-over game chat, but i dont really need this feature as well because when i use my PS3 headset, then i almost always talk to people who play the same games that i play

Likewise with the browser. You obviously don't use it a lot.

You are right that i dont really use the PS3 browser a lot. I use the PS3 browser maybe.. 3-5 times each month or so in average. Do you use or have you used the PS3 broswer a lot? Could you then explain to me what you think is shitty about it if you have more experience with the PS3 broswer than what i have?

Emulators are good, but I wanna see a real demo scene, graphics / math
programming on the Cell & RSX processor, media hubs supporting Cell,
experimental software utilizing new input controls, educational &
scientifical stuff, and much more.

Ok, that is cool I wouldnt mind to see these things myself

By the way, maybe you already know this, but there is already a real demo for the PS3 that is made by the demo scene. It is called "Linger in the Shadows". It can be bought from the PS Store (it costs a few dollars i think) and it actually have trophy support as well If you dont want to pay to see it, here are some videos of it:

http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=50170 (just click on "capped.tv", "demoscene.tv" and/or "youtube" on that page to see the video).

 

[missile]

why for hacks moding you signed tos you dont have a pc to run it i have one pc and dual boot

stop crying

mkay

theplayer
Banned
(Today, 10:11 PM)

 

[CrushDance]

So hows that liar geohot doing?

 

[vgachi57]

Hitler suffers as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO5zmjbRujs

i know it's old and cliche at this point, but i still laugh when i see these vids

 

[ReyBrujo]

I am kind of guessing that, even if he gets it right, nobody will apologize for the free name calling.

 

[androvsky]

So hows that liar geohot doing?

Oh, I'm quite sure he's busy putting the finishing touches on his custom firmware. That requires soldering an FPGA to a memory line on your PS3 in order to install. That will probably get your console banned from PSN within a week.

I like how he said he'll test it on the Slim as soon as his infectus arrives... funny thing is, apparently the infectus won't work on any firmware new enough to be on a Slim.

I am kind of guessing that, even if he gets it right, nobody will apologize for the free name calling.

By "gets it right", you mean does something worth losing official support for linux? Having to install a modchip and risk getting banned just so we can get linux back ain't gonna cut it. Geohot got his name in the paper, and in return, everyone else lost the ability to run linux. Not much of a trade-off!

 

[Melchiah]

Geohot got his name in the paper, and in return, everyone else lost the ability to run linux. Not much of a trade-off!

Well said.

 

[GSG Flash]

Did Sony really block the DNS workarounds for accessing the PSN? (haven't turned on my PS3 in a while)

If so, then they're even bigger assholes than I previously thought. The only way Sony is going to learn is through some actual legal action, though I'm not to sure that any of us actually have the resources to take Sony to court.

Oh, I'm quite sure he's busy putting the finishing touches on his custom firmware. That requires soldering an FPGA to a memory line on your PS3 in order to install. That will probably get your console banned from PSN within a week.

I like how he said he'll test it on the Slim as soon as his infectus arrives... funny thing is, apparently the infectus won't work on any firmware new enough to be on a Slim.

Did you even read his CFW update? He explicitly stated that you don't need to open up your PS3 to install it, all you need is your PS3 to be at 3.15 or earlier.

 

[J Tourettes]

Oh, I'm quite sure he's busy putting the finishing touches on his custom firmware. That requires soldering an FPGA to a memory line on your PS3 in order to install. That will probably get your console banned from PSN within a week.

I like how he said he'll test it on the Slim as soon as his infectus arrives... funny thing is, apparently the infectus won't work on any firmware new enough to be on a Slim.



By "gets it right", you mean does something worth losing official support for linux? Having to install a modchip and risk getting banned just so we can get linux back ain't gonna cut it. Geohot got his name in the paper, and in return, everyone else lost the ability to run linux. Not much of a trade-off!

Yeah, fuck Geohot, his actions totally justify Sony's behaviour!

 

[charlequin]

It really is funny to me how nothing else but the PS3 seems to drive people to get hot and bothered and start throwing around angry accusations of dishonesty at hackers in quite the same fashion. :lol

 

[Metalmurphy]

It really is funny to me how nothing else but the PS3 seems to drive people to get hot and bothered and start throwing around angry accusations of dishonesty at hackers in quite the same fashion. :lol

Considering said "hacker" had this to say

"If you are willing to open up your system, learn some electronics, and solder, perhaps you deserve free games. "

Yeah...

 

[slider]

It really is funny to me how nothing else but the PS3 seems to drive people to get hot and bothered and start throwing around angry accusations of dishonesty at hackers in quite the same fashion. :lol

Well I don't post in this thread much but... maybe the PS3 is held as some sort of beacon in the dark as an anti-piracy poster boy cos it's been so hard to get CFW (if Geohot's claims are true of course).

No one likes to see their heroes (poster boys!) fall from grace. (And rightly so.)

Dammit I could've expressed myself much better but there you go...

 

[obonicus]

It really is funny to me how nothing else but the PS3 seems to drive people to get hot and bothered and start throwing around angry accusations of dishonesty at hackers in quite the same fashion. :lol

The passion runs both ways, though. People are a lot more passionate about this bit of corporate bumfucking than they are about a whole other bunch of similarly egregious corporate bumfuckery.

Likewise, when the 'hello hypervisor' thing came out, I had people who ought to know better arguing that his success was inevitable, while knowing nothing about what he had accomplished, essentially because 'he's geohot' and 'the natural state of systems is to be hacked'.

 

[gcubed]

Did Sony really block the DNS workarounds for accessing the PSN? (haven't turned on my PS3 in a while)

If so, then they're even bigger assholes than I previously thought. The only way Sony is going to learn is through some actual legal action, though I'm not to sure that any of us actually have the resources to take Sony to court.



Did you even read his CFW update? He explicitly stated that you don't need to open up your PS3 to install it, all you need is your PS3 to be at 3.15 or earlier.

lolwut?

this post is ridiculous.