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[mclem]

Out of interest, doesn't this mean that they could - legally - release an update to a self-destruct firmware which removes your ability to do anything other then use the web browser on your PS3 and which triggers, say, three months after the release of the PS4?

 

[ChronicleX]

Out of interest, doesn't this mean that they could - legally - release an update to a self-destruct firmware which removes your ability to do anything other then use the web browser on your PS3 and which triggers, say, three months after the release of the PS4?

Aslong as they state that is what they are doing and you agree to them allowing todo it then yes. However when its primary function (games console) is no longer intact which breaks a shit load of laws IIRC.

 

[Version 3.0]

Out of interest, doesn't this mean that they could - legally - release an update to a self-destruct firmware which removes your ability to do anything other then use the web browser on your PS3 and which triggers, say, three months after the release of the PS4?

That's an extreme example, but that is indeed the question at hand. The answer right now is "maybe", because this sort of thing, being new, isn't specifically regulated in many (perhaps most) places.

Please don't believe anyone who says that if it's in the EULA, it's legal. That's utter BS. The EULA is superceded by any and all existing laws, and often by simple common sense as well, if it states anything that's ruled unreasonable if it ends up in court. And some few places have laws that state flatly that their residents are never bound by EULAs--laws which came about because of the ridiculous junk that fill so many EULAs. So when someone tells you that the EULA prohibits you from loaning, selling, disassembling, or eating your game, or that you have to give it back or burn it if Activision says so, please just laugh in his face.

 

[master15]

Is Youtube no longer working on the browser? It's asking me to upgrade the flash player and adobe's website isn't allowing this.

 

[Fafalada]

I'll tell you how we lose. We lose if it's determined that we never own the hardware and software we purchase

For software, that battle has been 'lost' a long time ago. And consumers have made a statement about it with their wallets - the most commercially successful gaming software today is centered around business models where you don't even own a piece of plastic anymore.

the correct response would have been to leave OtherOS in but then ban anyone from PSN that was accessing it with a CFW, if there was even ever going to be a CFW in the first place.

You're assuming that's possible in the first place - I'm not sure even Sony knows if they could actually do that.
And at least on Gaf, people would call that anti-consumer practice anyhow, since CFW is considered some kind of an exemption compared to other piracy enabling hacks. I guarantee that if PSP accounts started getting banned if using CFW while connecting to the store, people would raise even more noise then this thread.

 

[elevenstrings]

Is Youtube no longer working on the browser? It's asking me to upgrade the flash player and adobe's website isn't allowing this.

Same thing here.

 

[onken]

Disable Javascript.

 

[charlequin]

For software, that battle has been 'lost' a long time ago.

Much of what passes for laws on this in the US is still just the product of a patchwork series of district court rulings without even a SCOTUS judgment to pick one interpretation over the other. There's still a good amount of precedent on the books in the US for the common-sense interpretation that software is akin to other copyrighted media and not magically different because that would be convenient for people with a lot of money invested in software development.

It certainly doesn't look rosy for people who care about seeing sane copyright rules implemented in the US, but I wouldn't call the battle "lost" by any stretch.

 

[SS4Rob]

I wish I had read the end of this thread before I took the time to configure my DNS server here - now that DNS spoofing is blocked, what can we do next? I actually use my Linux partition - not a ton mind you, but I've booted into in the past month *sigh*.

 

[iapetus]

For anyone still quibbling about the 'advertising' definition:

(d) show the quality and performance which are normal in goods of the same type and which the consumer can reasonably expect, given the nature of the goods and taking into account any public statements on the specific characteristics of the goods made about them by the seller, the producer or his representative, particularly in advertising or on labelling.

Those Phil Harrison quotes absolutely 100% nail Sony with this one.

 

[simtmb]

I wish I had read the end of this thread before I took the time to configure my DNS server here - now that DNS spoofing is blocked, what can we do next? I actually use my Linux partition - not a ton mind you, but I've booted into in the past month *sigh*.

Yeah I actually use the feature as well so i prevented the update through configuring the DNS server. I'm hoping something else comes up as I'm one of the few that wants this feature intact. However, i regularly connect to PSN....and damnit After Burner Climax gets released soon. Looks like i'll probably be purchasing that for the 360 if i decide to hold-out for another potential workaround.

 

[magicaltrevor]

On a somewhat related note:

Official PSN Avatar Design Contest?

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Disable Javascript.

Without javascript the videos don't work at all.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

the bypass has been officially blocked.

what now, GAF?

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

I still haven't updated my firmware to 3.21, but I was just wondering: I've read some reports that it's screwing older model PS3s up. Any validity to that? I haven't been paying too much attention to this issue (haven't had much time to play my PS3).

 

[fortified_concept]

Don't screw with the browser for nothing. This is a widespread youtube problem. It happened with my Opera and someone else's IE8 in this forum.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

FUCKING SONY!!!

My 60GB PS3 is back from the repair store. They fucking deleted all my data!! I specifically mentioned not to do that!! FUCK!!!!!!!!!



Good news: They restored the firmware update to 3.15, So I guess I'm going to ebay it...

FUCK!

 

[Kai Ozu]

FUCKING SONY!!!

My 60GB PS3 is back from the repair store. They fucking deleted all my data!! I specifically mentioned not to do that!! FUCK!!!!!!!!!



Good news: They restored the firmware update to 3.15, So I guess I'm going to ebay it...

FUCK!

How long did it take to get back to you?

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

How long did it take to get back to you?

Less than 3 days. From the looks of it, they changed the entire hardware inside since I couldn't back up my old data onto it as it said "Data backup on a different PS3. Some data cannot be backed up. Are you sure?", followed by "Error: Data not found" even though it's all there.

Oh well, fucking shit!

 

[Massa]

Less than 3 days. From the looks of it, they changed the entire hardware inside since I couldn't back up my old data onto it as it said "Data backup on a different PS3. Some data cannot be backed up. Are you sure?", followed by "Error: Data not found" even though it's all there.

Oh well, fucking shit!

You should be able to restore backup even on a different PS3, it seems like your backup data is corrupted. :-(

 

[missile]

Sony Refuses PS3-Linux Reimbursment

Sony Refuses PS3-Linux Reimbursment

04/17/2010 Written by Kyle P.

Gamers around the world are still furious over Sony’s recent decision to remove the popular “OtherOS” feature from their PlayStation 3’s. This feature allowed gamers to install Linux and other popular Operation System’s onto their PS3. Once an important selling point early in the console’s life, Sony entirely removed the feature in the slimmed down 120GB PS3, which released last September. However, the option was still available to all of the earlier models of the PlayStation 3’s–the “Fat” models. Sony made the decision to remove the feature, from all models, when noted iPhone jailbreaker known as Geohot “100% hacked the PS3“. Obviously, this worried Sony, as they would not allow their behemoth vulnerable to hacking, which would lead down the road to open piracy. So earlier this month, they removed the feature from all versions of the console, via firmware 3.21. Gamers who did not want to download the mandatory update would not be able to play the newest version of Blu-Rays or connect to the PlayStation Network. With this incident, many gamers are crying foul play and are demanding reimbursement for their console. Unfortunately, it seems like Sony won’t be playing that game.

A Sony representative commented on Amazon UK’s recent decision to partially refund the price of a PlayStation 3, after the disgruntled owner cited broken European consumer protection law–most notable, the Sales of Goods Act. However, a recent comment from PR head honcho David Wilson cemented Sony’s position, saying that Sony will not reimburse retailers who offer refunds to gamers who are upset over the Linux removal.

“We do understand the frustration a small number of consumers may feel at SCE’s decision to provide an upgrade to the firmware to disable the Linux operating system but we refute any suggestion that this action is in any way a contravention of the terms of Sale of Goods Act.”

Wilson continued, calling the PS3 “first and foremost a games console”.

“The PS3 is first and foremost a games console and our marketing materials for the console reflect this. The console packaging and the in-box manual for the console do not refer to the use of Linux on the console. Rather, the console packaging states that the product’s design and specifications are subject to change without notice and that the system software within the console is subject to a limited licence between SCE and the consumer, and this licence permits SCE to update the system software and services offered from time to time.”

Certainly, this will just add more fuel to the fire. The argument of gamers worldwide is that Sony advertised and talked about the OtherOS feature. Removing a feature they advertised breaks many of the consumer protection laws, worldwide. Many people are furious over Sony’s decision, and are seriously considering banding together, in a class action lawsuit. And they do have some ground to go on. Before the PlayStation 3 launched in November of 2006, Ken Kutaragi, then-President of SCE, praised the PS3, for being more than a computer.

“Speaking about the PS3, we never said we will release a game console. It is radically different from the previous PlayStation. It is clearly a computer.”

And let’s not forget about the “Open Platform” webpage, that clearly boasts the console’s ability to run a completely new Operating System. Or the GDC 2007 interview with Kai Staats, Co-Founder and CEO of Terra Soft Solutions, who explicitly states that Sony contracted his company to design a version of YellowDogLinux to run on the PlayStation 3.

However, Sony is not backing down. They cite that the same Sales of Goods Act gamers are using to their defense, can also be used to aid themselves.

“The provision in the Sale of Goods Act which requires an item to be fit for a purpose made known by the consumer to the retailer prior to purchase and confirmed by the retailer applies only to the contract between the retailer and the consumer. The decision by Amazon to give a consumer a partial refund is clearly between Amazon and the consumer, but we do not expect the decision to have a legal basis and we have no plans to compensate retailers.”

It will be interesting to see, over the coming months, whether a lawsuit is filed. Until then, we will all just have to hope Sony will add features to the PlayStation 3, not remove them. Did you ever use the “OtherOS” feature? If so, are you still using it? Did you update? Post your responses in the comments section below.

Bring back OtherOS!

 

[Dreams-Visions]

sigh.

 

[iapetus]

Sony are wrong under EU law, and demonstrably so. Either they know this, or they are incompetent.

UK law is required to implement the EU directive. Either it does this, or it is incorrectly formed and an appeal to the appropriate EU court would fix this.

Either way, Sony speak with forked tongue.

I'm having a quiet family weekend this weekend - if I'm still as furious about this on Monday as I am now, I'll dig out the UK law and see which it is.

 

[state_vector_collapse]

So Sony are now stressing it is first and foremost a games console. Not quite the stance they took when pitching it with Other OS got them tax breaks (assuming that was true?)

 

[AndyD]

So Sony are now stressing it is first and foremost a games console. Not quite the stance they took when pitching it with Other OS got them tax breaks (assuming that was true?)

Someone said it was not, a couple of pages ago, and posted the law. The PS2 got the tax breaks, but the law changed before the PS3 came around. So it was not necessary for the PS3, there were non tax breaks. But it made a difference for the PS2.

 

[besiktas1]

havent really been following because I have a slim. But from what I understand all of this happened because that iphone hacker said he found an exploit via OtherOS... Did he ever release anything worthwhile with that exploit? What if he didnt say anything before/if he released the exploit would it still be obvious exploit came from otherOS?

If he never released the exploit all in all a douchy manuver from both Hacker and Sony...

 

[Cruzader]

Shit sucks but I updated. PSN access and ability to play online outweighs OtherOS support for me.(something I never used, sometime thought of using) That plus the new service+3D updates would make it dumb to hold back.

Still dont agree with the decision.

 

[iapetus]

I'm having a quiet family weekend this weekend - if I'm still as furious about this on Monday as I am now, I'll dig out the UK law and see which it is.

Fuck it. I'm up doing some cleaning and waiting for something to finish, so here's the relevant quote from the Sale of Goods Act:

“(2D) If the buyer deals as consumer or, in Scotland, if a contract of sale is a consumer contract, the relevant circumstances mentioned in subsection (2A) above include any public statements on the specific characteristics of the goods made about them by the seller, the producer or his representative, particularly in advertising or on labelling.

Sony made a metric fuck ton of public statements on this characteristic. There's a case to be made.

And they know damn well that any terms in the EULA attempting to claim they aren't on the hook for this are void under the Unfair Contract Terms Act too.

 

[iapetus]

From the government's own site on the Unfair Contract Terms Act:

A consumer contract excluding liability for defective goods would be automatically invalid.

 

[Kasra_2x4]

FUCKING SONY!!!

My 60GB PS3 is back from the repair store. They fucking deleted all my data!! I specifically mentioned not to do that!! FUCK!!!!!!!!!



Good news: They restored the firmware update to 3.15, So I guess I'm going to ebay it...

FUCK!

its very hard to deal with it

 

[Trojita]

I'm conflicted. Should I be upgrading my 60GB Launch PS3 with the new update or not? I don't really like the idea of losing the ability to possibly use homebrew in the future.

 

[rainer516]

A professor of mine had been using the linux feature to compile and run computation software on the PS3. It's a freaking supercomputer for cheap, it was able to do monte carlo simulations that took a week on the engineering computer cluster in 3 days. Removing this feature is a sad day for computational mathematicians and ops research people everywhere.

 

[patsu]

A professor of mine had been using the linux feature to compile and run computation software on the PS3. It's a freaking supercomputer for cheap, it was able to do monte carlo simulations that took a week on the engineering computer cluster in 3 days. Removing this feature is a sad day for computational mathematicians and ops research people everywhere.

Well, your professor also doesn't have to upgrade their PS3 right ?

 

[Downhome]

I wonder what the percentage of people who have actually tried for a refund from various retailers is, and then from there I wonder how many people have actually been successful in receiving a refund of any sort. Heck, how many just here on the board have been successful? We all know about iapetus of course. :lol

I bought my PS3 80GB MGS4 bundle on Amazon.com back when that game was first released. What a complete mess this entire things is. It sure has been fun to read up on and follow though.

 

[corrosivefrost]

No more work arounds and no word from geohot, eh?

I'm trying to hold out as long as I can, but I kind of want to get in on the WipEout HD sale and Super Street Fighter IV is in a week... then the MW2 stimulus pack.

I'm trying to sell my console for the cost of a slim, but nobody's biting yet -- doesn't seem like 3.15 fw is much of a selling point -- the BC seemingly is the bigger selling point still.

 

[simtmb]

No more work arounds and no word from geohot, eh?

I'm trying to hold out as long as I can, but I kind of want to get in on the WipEout HD sale and Super Street Fighter IV is in a week... then the MW2 stimulus pack.

I'm trying to sell my console for the cost of a slim, but nobody's biting yet -- doesn't seem like 3.15 fw is much of a selling point -- the BC seemingly is the bigger selling point still.

Yep, nothing yet unfortunately. I'll just hold out until SSFIV, if nothing comes then, screw it, I'll just update. Unfortunate though, as i personally want to keep hold of this feature.

 

[RedNumberFive]

Well, your professor also doesn't have to upgrade their PS3 right ?

I suppose that he doesn't. But anyone else that wants to use it for education / research is pretty much boned, eh? Let's hope his professor never gets a YLOD!

 

[GSG Flash]

No more work arounds and no word from geohot, eh?

I'm trying to hold out as long as I can, but I kind of want to get in on the WipEout HD sale and Super Street Fighter IV is in a week... then the MW2 stimulus pack.

I'm trying to sell my console for the cost of a slim, but nobody's biting yet -- doesn't seem like 3.15 fw is much of a selling point -- the BC seemingly is the bigger selling point still.

One of his last few tweets stated that he's working on his taxes right now so the PS3 CFW and whatever the hell he's doing with the iphone os is gonna have to wait.

 

[Valkyr Junkie]

I suppose that he doesn't. But anyone else that wants to use it for education / research is pretty much boned, eh? Let's hope his professor never gets a YLOD!

I would imagine most PS3s currently being utilized for OtherOS never even see GameOS, let alone connect to PSN. And by most I mean (99.999999%)

 

[obonicus]

Oh, I absolutely agree. I'm just noting the difference between what I usually do in these threads (rage briefly against the dying of the light, argue with some viral corporate shills who haven't gotten banhammered yet, get bored of the repetition and move on) and what I can do in this thread (actually be excited that someone has something useful to do about this particular instance of corporate tomfoolery.)

I wasn't talking about you, though.

Well, quite honestly, what are you supposed to do with the industry in the state it's in right now to use your purchasing patterns to send any kind of message?

Stop buying new games and systems, full stop? If you truly don't think you can support their business model it seems like it's the only choice. Buy old games, buy DRM-less games on PC -- and the breadth and depth of the free games available seem like an embarassment of riches, if you have the same taste a lot of GAFfers espouse.

And yes, a big part of this is yelling 'iceberg' as the stern dips into the water, but that's sort of my initial point. We're seeing a much bigger reaction to this news that we did for most of the other nonsense companies have pulled. It's reasonable to be upset, but this sort of corporate backlash four years after the start of the generation may be too little, too late. If gamers had any sort of consumer conscience they'd have reacted and voted with their wallets back then. We don't, so we didn't. I personally think that the only reason this news got so big was because iapetus did all the heavy lifting. (And even then I think that even with the promise of 'free money' it'll be ultimately insignificant.)

Sony removing features, spitting on BC, and pricing their system at launch at an insulting amount

Funny thing is, because of Kutaragi's blunder with Blu-Ray (from an SCE perspective, not SNE's) and $599 etc. etc. we'll probably see the abandonment of most of ideas about open standards that made their way into the PS3. I wonder if removing OtherOS has a political undercurrent as well, just a way to erase Kutaragi's legacy.

The industry is a mess and without some kind of collective recognition of just how crappy it's gotten in these areas, it's likely to remain a mess in every direction. And unfortunately, if other industries are any indication, recognition of that type would take the form of drastically rising piracy rates combined with plummeting sales -- not something I'm necessarily looking to advocate for even if it might lead to a significant improvement in the long run like it's done in the music industry.

In fact it seems like the other way around. DRM-heavy schemes are proving quite successful. Even this thing; Sony's going to get out of this relatively unscathed, I'm sure of it. The main result is that we'll never see 'OtherOS' again on a major console.

 

[mclem]

In fact it seems like the other way around. DRM-heavy schemes are proving quite successful. Even this thing; Sony's going to get out of this relatively unscathed, I'm sure of it. The main result is that we'll never see 'OtherOS' again on a major console.

While I'm not sure many of the console makers would be willing to do the investment required to do so, they should be easily powerful enough to run an OtherOS equivalent as a virtual machine instead; allow OtherOS to exist in a fully-controlled environment.

You wouldn't get access to the interesting hardware at the core of the machine, but you don't get much of that anyway, and that appears to be exactly where the problem lies.

 

[RotBot]

I would imagine most PS3s currently being utilized for OtherOS never even see GameOS, let alone connect to PSN. And by most I mean (99.999999%)

You probably don't mean 99.999999%. Because that would mean at least a million PS3s have OtherOS installed. And only one out of a million PS3s with OtherOS also dual boot.

 

[LQX]

My PS3 is still on the pre-3.21. By chance are these now sought after? I may sell my 80GB fat to get a Slim.

 

[ChronicleX]

My PS3 is still on the pre-3.21. By chance are these now sought after? I may sell my 80GB fat to get a Slim.

Personally get a slim and keep the fat until something does happen. They will always be worth something due to linux but if the PS3 does get hacked good and proper they will be worth a fortune.

 

[J Tourettes]

Game finally got back to me and this was their response:

I understand your disappointment with the removal of the alternative operating system functionality of the PS3. The decision to remove this functionality was made by Sony in an effort to combat piracy. Please refer to paragraph 10 of the PlayStation Network Terms of Service and User Agreement dealing with Maintenance and Upgrades. This provision permits Sony to effect upgrades which may change users current operating system and could cause "loss of data or content, or loss of function or utility."
I apologise for any disappointment this may cause.

Took them 10 days to respond, hopefully they'll respond more quickly to my reply, once I've composed it.

I can't say I'm surprised they're trying to hide behind that.

 

[simtmb]

Well, since I've got no reason to essentially go on PSN till SSFIV :lol I'm gonna hold out updating till my order comes in

 

[corrosivefrost]

Personally get a slim and keep the fat until something does happen. They will always be worth something due to linux but if the PS3 does get hacked good and proper they will be worth a fortune.

Problem is with the block of DNS/proxy workarounds, you can't sync your account data if you've done anything since the workarounds stopped working -- thus if you want to data transfer to a slim, you'll be up the creek. I had to bring my 60gb bc model to 3.21 to get data transfer done...

For what it's worth, I got about what I expected for a 60gb with BC -- the price was seemingly unaffected by the change of "running fw 3.15" to "running fw 3.21".

 

[J Tourettes]

Has anyone else had there's automatically update? Wtf!

 

[endlessflood]

Well this update did wonders for Sony's brand image, didn't it?

 

[Naked Snake]

Has anyone else had there's automatically update? Wtf!

wat