Version 3.0
Member
hirokazu said:
Regardless of the outcome of the case, hopefully this will begin to define what is and isn't acceptable in the digital world, something that's badly needed across the board.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
PS3 Firmware Update 3.21 of preventing piracy by removing Linux.
- Thread starter Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
- Start date
Regardless of the outcome of the case, hopefully this will begin to define what is and isn't acceptable in the digital world, something that's badly needed across the board.
timetokill
Banned
Excellent. I hope Sony burns for this.
Removing well-advertised and promised features of a product that has already been sold to the customer is abhorrent and should not be allowed to stand.
Removing well-advertised and promised features of a product that has already been sold to the customer is abhorrent and should not be allowed to stand.
Let's put it like this - I haven't updated yet (thanks largely to Sony butt-headedly forcing me to reformat my drive if I wanted to reclaim the OtherOS space).iapetus said:
But overall - software has long ago established a 'precedent' for randomly taking away features. Sony made the mistake of putting this particular SW-feature as a sticker on hw-box, so they may end up paying money for it.
But aside for that, the most that I see coming from this is marketing becoming more paranoid about how they advertise, and a guarantee we never see a feature like this in a console again (though this was already obvious the moment Sony released 3.21).
charlequin
Banned
Fafalada said:
You wouldn't consider "don't openly lie about what features are in your product on the box and in advertising" to be a potentially worthwhile achievement here?
charlequin said:
To be fair they never lied. There was nothing inaccurate about the advertising or description at the time of the ads, purchase and many months or years after.
I think he means companies will be reluctant to tout all sorts of small side features that are not essential to the main function. Instead they will simply be bullet points on a list in the manual.
But I dont think the suit will go anywhere. In the age of software, things change all the time. Stuff gets added, taken away and minutely changed and that's the nature of the beast. Plus we are simply licensed to the software, we don't actually own it. We only own the hardware.
J Tourettes
Banned
Just sent my second email to Game, let's see what they come back with this time.
charlequin
Banned
AndyD said:
Well, if there are still systems going out in boxes that claim Linux capability, that's not true. But it's a broader point than that -- getting someone to buy your product by promising feature X and then taking it away is still a form of deception, even if the original promise was not made with the intent of eventually taking it away.
Don't cede this bullshit right to the corporations just because they have asserted it without legal support.
Lothars said:
People actually dug up the advertisements that touted Linux capability as a feature the first time this came up.
J Tourettes
Banned
Wow, record response time from Game :lol
Near enough a carbon copy of the first response with the 'we cannot change this' thrown in for good measure.
Game said:
Near enough a carbon copy of the first response with the 'we cannot change this' thrown in for good measure.
frontieruk
Member
J Tourettes said:
I'm pondering trying the not fit for purpose route with play in that the security flaw would appear to be a flaw with how the hypervisor responds to calls about memory locations allowing for memory bus over flow attacks with some extra hardware, this flaw was there when Sony shipped the systems, advertised the feature and used it as a way to set their system apart.
As the only way to patch the flaw has been the removal of a feature, that would mean the flaw is hardcoded into the chip. Sony removing the feature could be interpreted as the manufacturer deciding the system is not fit for the purpose of running linux due to security risks, thus putting the onus on the retailer again as the system wasn't fit for the purpose that the purchaser intended it for.
frontieruk said:
Except the hypervisor response can only be tricked with added hardware. Not with a standard off the shelf system. When hardware is modified, its no longer the liability of the manufacturer. And even then, if security measures are bypassed, the game changes.
$
Error: does not compute xD
Sorry, but reading a text in a more column-like fashion is much more
efficient and also more pleasing (despite you have to scroll a little) than
those badly-formated-oversized HTML layouts. For some very good reasons
I write my text with <= 80 characters per line. There exists only one
typesetting system which really does its job, LaTeX (wiki)! The rest is simply
a sh!t load of crap, you name it; Word, HTML, whatever. LaTeX is Gutenberg
in a digital form, thanks to Donald E. Knuth.
There is a long way to go to bring an efficient typesetting system to the
internet. Each research article, each book, and each newspaper is far beyond
what can be seen on the web. The problem is that some people got used to
the internet to a degree that they now claim the way the board-software does
it is the right way to go. lol
think nothing will change at all, because they always advertise a product to
maximize profit. And if they would decide to be more strict on the
advertising front, they may lose against their competitors. Only a huge
feature list can separate you from the pack. They will take whatever they
got. What is advertising anyway? Roughly speaking, the idea behind
advertising is to attribute a quality to a product it doesn't have, nobody
needs, and isn't worth the money. So with respect to advertising you do
whatever is needed to get the crap out of the door.
The whole concept behind hypervisor software (a big industry comming up) is
to consolidate system resources and to allow secure execution of different
environments on one and the same hardware. Future consoles will be a lot
more powerful, esp. if we consider that they will support 3-D, which requires
about two times the rendering performance of standard 3D systems, as you
know. Even today, if we give a PS3 2 - 4GB of main memory and free access to
the RSX, then there would be no argument that a PS3 couldn't serve as a
desktop replacement for the average Joe. That is to say, a future system could
be used for a lot more than just games. And this is where the trend goes.
Hypervisor software make this possible. The OtherOS was just a forerunner of
all of this. So in the future you may have just one hardware (kinda of a
Media Hub) running different logical partitions managed by a hypervisor
increasing the effectivity of the whole system. This is much better than
trying to build one software which will integrate all features required.
That means, the GameOS will never reach the scale and usability of Linux, or
Windows for that matter. And it wouldn't make any sense at all to replicate
Linux or Windows. On a possible Media Hub one can have a DRM partition where
all the protected stuff like games, movies, etc are running and another
partition where one could do stuff like browsing the web, calling friends via
skype, write emails, etc, running on a free operating system like Linux. So if
you ask me, the concept behind the OtherOS could be a key factor for next-gen
consoles. And if Sony takes it much more seriously next time around,
everything could turn out just fine.
because Sony didn't obeyed the strict rules of the PowerPC specification.
IBM wrote that a hypervisor software must assure that the valid bit of an
entry of the hashed page table (HTAB) was set as intended. But Sony's
hypervisor doesn't check it. The bit is set in a fire-and-forget fashion. And
this is where the hack kicks in, i.e. the write operation to invalidate a
certain HTAB entry to memory is glitched and the hypervisor doesn't know about
it because it doesn't check whether the entry was really invalidated or not.
The HTAB is a critical hypervisor resource and should be treated very
carefully. IBM has stated this multiple times within Book III of the PowerPC
architecture.
The fault is on Sony's end. And the problem can be fixed in software. But
instead of fixing it, Sony wiped a whole community all of a sudden! And this
is something I can't tolerate.
↵Schrade said:
Error: does not compute xD
Sorry, but reading a text in a more column-like fashion is much more
efficient and also more pleasing (despite you have to scroll a little) than
those badly-formated-oversized HTML layouts. For some very good reasons
I write my text with <= 80 characters per line. There exists only one
typesetting system which really does its job, LaTeX (wiki)! The rest is simply
a sh!t load of crap, you name it; Word, HTML, whatever. LaTeX is Gutenberg
in a digital form, thanks to Donald E. Knuth.
There is a long way to go to bring an efficient typesetting system to the
internet. Each research article, each book, and each newspaper is far beyond
what can be seen on the web. The problem is that some people got used to
the internet to a degree that they now claim the way the board-software does
it is the right way to go. lol
More paranoid? It was / is their job to align everything from the get-go. IFafalada said:
think nothing will change at all, because they always advertise a product to
maximize profit. And if they would decide to be more strict on the
advertising front, they may lose against their competitors. Only a huge
feature list can separate you from the pack. They will take whatever they
got. What is advertising anyway? Roughly speaking, the idea behind
advertising is to attribute a quality to a product it doesn't have, nobody
needs, and isn't worth the money. So with respect to advertising you do
whatever is needed to get the crap out of the door.
I'm not sure about this. System utilization is a key factor in the future.Fafalada said:
The whole concept behind hypervisor software (a big industry comming up) is
to consolidate system resources and to allow secure execution of different
environments on one and the same hardware. Future consoles will be a lot
more powerful, esp. if we consider that they will support 3-D, which requires
about two times the rendering performance of standard 3D systems, as you
know. Even today, if we give a PS3 2 - 4GB of main memory and free access to
the RSX, then there would be no argument that a PS3 couldn't serve as a
desktop replacement for the average Joe. That is to say, a future system could
be used for a lot more than just games. And this is where the trend goes.
Hypervisor software make this possible. The OtherOS was just a forerunner of
all of this. So in the future you may have just one hardware (kinda of a
Media Hub) running different logical partitions managed by a hypervisor
increasing the effectivity of the whole system. This is much better than
trying to build one software which will integrate all features required.
That means, the GameOS will never reach the scale and usability of Linux, or
Windows for that matter. And it wouldn't make any sense at all to replicate
Linux or Windows. On a possible Media Hub one can have a DRM partition where
all the protected stuff like games, movies, etc are running and another
partition where one could do stuff like browsing the web, calling friends via
skype, write emails, etc, running on a free operating system like Linux. So if
you ask me, the concept behind the OtherOS could be a key factor for next-gen
consoles. And if Sony takes it much more seriously next time around,
everything could turn out just fine.
Well, it's pretty obvious how the hack works. The hack became possiblefrontieruk said:
because Sony didn't obeyed the strict rules of the PowerPC specification.
IBM wrote that a hypervisor software must assure that the valid bit of an
entry of the hashed page table (HTAB) was set as intended. But Sony's
hypervisor doesn't check it. The bit is set in a fire-and-forget fashion. And
this is where the hack kicks in, i.e. the write operation to invalidate a
certain HTAB entry to memory is glitched and the hypervisor doesn't know about
it because it doesn't check whether the entry was really invalidated or not.
The HTAB is a critical hypervisor resource and should be treated very
carefully. IBM has stated this multiple times within Book III of the PowerPC
architecture.
The fault is on Sony's end. And the problem can be fixed in software. But
instead of fixing it, Sony wiped a whole community all of a sudden! And this
is something I can't tolerate.
J Tourettes
Banned
Melchiah said:
No.
The lawsuit is worthless. Ultimately Sony could just throw a bucket of money at this guy to shut him up, as I'm sure those losses would be far less than dealing with OtherOS again.
OtherOS is gone for good, and is never coming back. It is also unlikely that Custom Firmware will come around anytime soon in any viable fashion. All of you hold outs are better off investing your money into a $400 PC, tossing linux on it, and connecting it to your TV.
I mean, I'm all for standing for what you believe in, but pretending your actions will have any sort of impact on the outcome of this situation is a fairy tale at best.
OtherOS is gone for good, and is never coming back. It is also unlikely that Custom Firmware will come around anytime soon in any viable fashion. All of you hold outs are better off investing your money into a $400 PC, tossing linux on it, and connecting it to your TV.
I mean, I'm all for standing for what you believe in, but pretending your actions will have any sort of impact on the outcome of this situation is a fairy tale at best.
Segata Sanshiro
Member
This lawsuit will establish a legal precedent. Pretending legal precedents are worthless and don't have an impact on future situations shows your higher brain functioning is a fairy tale at best.MrPliskin said:
Segata Sanshiro said:
I see, I didn't realize that insults were necessary in the discussion, I'll be sure to keep that in mind.
As it stands, it is unlikely that this suit will go very far, nor will it set any legal precedents. In the end, it won't bring back other OS, and no one will stand to gain financially from it. I just don't think any of us will see any tangible results because of this.
So, if you disagree, that's cool, but I really don't think you have to get personal, unless other OS really get's you fired up.
Segata Sanshiro
Member
Yeah, because you weren't trying to insult anyone with your post. Get off your cross.MrPliskin said:
Regardless of the outcome of the lawsuit, it sets a precedent. That is no more deniable than the sun rising tomorrow morning.
Segata Sanshiro said:
I'm not trying to insult anyone, just being realistic. Refusing to update your firmware to make a statement does nothing, nor does getting rid of your PS3. There are six other 'joe six packs' waiting to replace you. (This is what my "fairytale" statement was related to).
The lawsuit, in my opinion, will do nothing. In the end, Sony probably won't be forced to bring back OtherOS, and they probably won't have to award anyone any financial compensation. The update is voluntary, in a sense, so I don't think anyone really has any legs to stand on.
Yes, the situation blows, no one likes to lose anything, and this certainly isn't a "smart" move by Sony. I'm just being realistic when I say there is little anyone can really do to change the situation.
Kittonwy said:
Yes?
The DVD drives of the older Wiis and 360s were exploited to be able to run pirated games, does that mean that Nintendo or MS should have remotely disabled the DVD drives of the older consoles?
Or, in the case of Wii, Twilight Princess was used to enable homebrew, so should Nintendo have remotely disabled the ability to play Twilight Princess?
Sony disabled the Other OS option on the slim model, meaning they knew Other OS was exploitable, but people buying the Slim knew they weren't getting any Other OS option. In regards to the PS3 phat model(which isn't being sold anymore), Sony should have realized that the damage was done and they should have just cut their losses(if any) and then make new models unexploitable, like most companies do. But instead, they go out and remove the feature entirely from the old models, disregarding whether customers use it or not, and then they go and punish users for keeping it.
If Sony weren't such huge dumbasses, they would realize that these hackers weren't going to update anyways and removing Other OS only hurt the people who bought the older models and it's not making the console any more secure then it already was.
charlequin
Banned
Kittonwy said:
Yes?
InterMoniker
Member
*Rolls eyes*GSG Flash said:
This is different, of course you can't disable the dvd drive that is used to play games. Linux was not used to play games. That's not the best comparison.
GSG Flash said:
It's not whether they should, it's that they can't because it hurts business and it would mean they can't sell games to these people.
And risk alienating millions of Zelda fans on the platform?
You're suggesting that Sony should just bend over in terms of the older models regardless of whether otherOS will lead to exploits, but clearly they decided otherwise, at the expense of linux users.
The hackers aren't going to update but most PS3 owners will, after the update the exploits won't be applicable the majority of owners, essentially insulating most of the users from any otherOS-related exploits.
charlequin said:
Obviously Sony disagrees.
The best case scenario would have been Sony patching otherOS to shut the door on future exploits while allowing it to remain, maybe they didn't think it would be possible or would be worth the effort to constantly try to keep up, they're obviously willing to piss off the linux crowd by using a scorched earth policy and get rid of the otherOS functionality completely. I'm not saying this doesn't suck for linux users or that what Sony had done didn't hurt those people, and I'm not saying they don't have every right to sue either, on the other hand Sony is better off keeping the PS3 a closed system and as a PS3 user I prefer the system not to be hacked.
Neuromancer
Member
Hackers gonna hack.
Kittonwy said:
Of course if they could they would do it, but then they would be in a lot more trouble than Sony is in right now. The fact is that they aren't allowed to disable older drives just because it's a security risk as that would be the ultimate anti-consumer illegal act, so why should Sony be allowed to disable Other OS?
One could argue that piracy is costing Nintendo a lot more than disabling Twilight Princess would cost them. But I was asking a question, do you think Nintendo should remotely disable the ability to play Twilight Princess?
Yes I am suggesting that, they've already sold those phats and they really have no right to touch any of the features they sold along with it.
Once the first CFW is released, it's only a matter of time until the hackers catch up to Sony's latest firmware updates, the damage was done the moment they included Other OS on the PS3, and, as far as I'm concerned, Sony just fanned the flames by remotely disabling Other OS.
GSG Flash said:
Taking out the dvd drives would destroy both companies' business model.
Whether removing otherOS is "illegal" will be decided in a court of law. At the end of the day, it's not whether Sony should be allowed to disable otherOS, they've already disabled it.
One could, but disabling the ability to play Twilight Princess won't solve the problem at this point.
Sony obviously disagrees.
Who's to say whether that "first CFW" will ever come?
It doesn't matter, otherOS is gone on most systems, and newer systems don't have otherOS to begin with, hackers can hack their own systems but the exploits will likely not affect users who have updated and that's the whole point.
Kittonwy said:
You're not really getting the point here so I'm not going to bother trying anymore.
Alright, so do you think that Nintendo should have disabled the ability to play Twilight Princess when the exploit was first reported on? (similar to Sony's case, the exploit was announced a little while before it was actually released)
Sony can disagree all they want, they probably disagree with me buying used SCE published games as well, doesn't mean they have the right to stop me from doing so.
How do you know that the hackers won't eventually find a way to access consoles that already have the latest update?
Apple's been trying to stay ahead of the hackers for a while now too, but once the iPhone jailbreaking floodgates were opened, hackers have been able to bypass all iPhone updates, who's to say the same won't happen with the PS3?
GSG Flash said:
If they wanted to prevent what was going on and they had the means to ban those discs, I say more power to them if they wanted to do it.
Your point about jailbreaking is what I have been saying. To prevent opening the floodgates, they closed a potential exploit. People don't argue that Apple should not update firmware all the time to prevent jailbreaks, because they can see the effects of it already. With the PS3 there are no widespread exploits yet, so its harder to conceptualize.
AndyD said:
To prevent it would have been to not include Other OS from the start. The only way the hackers would give up Other OS is if Sony physically forced them to, so they're going to continue working on a hack as if Sony never released a feature disabling firmware update (or worse, they're going to be even more motivated now because Sony released a feature disabling firmware update), and once that first hack comes, there's no guarantee that the PS3s with the latest firmware are safe from it.
GSG Flash said:
The advantage for Sony though is that there are relatively few unpatched PS3s out there. And as time passes there will be fewer and fewer. The more machines they can get to and patch before an exploit becomes widepread and the more indispensable features they add through newer patches the more people will want to update to have access to PSN.
There is no guarantee something like PSP and Iphone firmwares will work. Where hack firmwares will also provide access to newest features and PSN access. So for now Sony is ahead of the curve. For how long remains to be seen like you say. You may well be right and we could see a custom firmware solution that not only allows latest features but also extra stuff like OtherOS. That would be a severe blow to Sony. But we'll see if it actually happens.
Kittonwy said:
Probably. Yeah, it sucks for Sony, but it's their fault for selling an insecure product originally. If they couldn't have run that feature securely, they shouldn't have offered it in the first place.
A seller should not get the right to change the terms of a transaction after a sale has taken place. If the terms cause the seller financial loss, they shouldn't have offered those terms.
Caveat Venditor, I guess. If that even *means* anything.
Version 3.0
Member
AndyD said:
So you think it's acceptable for them to screw millions of legitimate customers who bought Zelda in order to keep piracy down? I don't usually hurl insults around here, but sometimes it's simple fact. You're a moron.
Thankfully, if they actually did that, they'd pay through the nose. That's considerably more blatant and directly related to the product's main function than what Sony's done. It doesn't fall into a grey area like this; it's flatly illegal.
Uh, have you ever considered that no one is in an uproar over iPhone OS updates because they have never disabled an advertised feature? You people supporting Sony's stance and actions are always complaining of hyperbole comparisons but you're so full of it yourselves.AndyD said:
On the other hand, none of you seem to acknowledge the closest comparison, how Nintendo handled removing MP3 playback in the Wii Photo Channel in contrast with how Sony is handling this.