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PS3 Firmware Update 3.21 of preventing piracy by removing Linux.

hirokazu

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Leondexter said:
So you think it's acceptable for them to screw millions of legitimate customers who bought Zelda in order to keep piracy down? I don't usually hurl insults around here, but sometimes it's simple fact. You're a moron.
Thankfully, if they actually did that, they'd pay through the nose. That's considerably more blatant and directly related to the product's main function than what Sony's done. It doesn't fall into a grey area like this; it's flatly illegal.
If the law was just and well defined, there would've been no way Sony's actions would've fallen into the grey area either.
 

iapetus

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May 31, 2004
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J Tourettes said:
Wow, record response time from Game :lol

Near enough a carbon copy of the first response with the 'we cannot change this' thrown in for good measure.
Next step; hit them with the relevant clause from the unfair contracts legislation, and ask them how any agreement you have with Sony impacts on their obligations under the sale of goods act in any case.
 

J Tourettes

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iapetus said:
Next step; hit them with the relevant clause from the unfair contracts legislation, and ask them how any agreement you have with Sony impacts on their obligations under the sale of goods act in any case.
Cheers. Currently awaiting a response to whatever I sent last time, which was basically reminding them that my contract is with Game and not Sony and besides that, EULA cannot ride roughshod over EU & UK law.
 

J Tourettes

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Game have responded to my email, basically saying that they are investigating my query further, now I need to provide them with a telephone number and proof of purchase so that they can discuss it further when they are in a position to do so.

That's a lot better than my first two brush-offs.
 

dr_octagon

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Apr 25, 2009
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Erm excuse me, i am not a legal expert but i have never seen this Linux compatbility advertised anywhere! It's not even on the box and it's only mentoned in passing in the manual ("Other OS: Allows you to install oter operating systems", i think that's the exact entry for Other OS in the manual). It's not an advertised feature or even an esential one and comparing it with Blu Ray playback is just plain wrong, a very bad analogy. The PS3 was NEVER marketed as a Linux platform. I mean think about it, if a car company decided that the electric lighters in their cars were a fire hazzard and had to be disabled or removed, should people file class action lawsuits? That;s exactly what happened with the PS3. Seriously Linux people GET OVER IT!
Sums it up.

You don't have to be a legal expert. Common sense jumped out the window with a lot of people, they should at least admit their judgment is clouded and / or don't understand the principle of why what Sony have done is wrong (supported by EU legislation at least).
 

SmokyDave

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J Tourettes said:
Holy shit, the somments on this Eurogamer article are worse than some of the corporate aplogists in here :lol
Fucking kids valuing the good name of their favourite company over the money hard-earned by their parents. Idiots, each and every one of them.
 

snap0212

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I don’t know if anyone has read my Thread about how in “Call of Duty: World at War” you’re forced to buy all the DLC Packs in order to properly play online. This is kind of the same situation, I think and even Activision admitted that this games is broken (they broke it with the release of their DLC) and that I can return the game if I want to. This is kind of a big deal, imo.

I’ll send an e-mail to my retailer later... let's see what they say. :)
 

dr_octagon

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hirokazu said:
If the law was just and well defined, there would've been no way Sony's actions would've fallen into the grey area either.
The law isn't, and can never be, so precise. It will always be tested and there are grey areas and loopholes and questionable aspects to many, maybe all, aspects of the law. Looking at the area which protects the consumer, it's not a grey area. The fact Sony's breach is done through a firmware update does not make it so either because they still removed a feature they advertised.

For the EU at least, it is not grey, it may be difficult to show as it's not as prominent as damaged or faulty goods (for example) but that doesn't mean the law does not support the notion. The law is there to be used, applied, interpreted and this falls well within the ambit of EU legislation. It may not say 'Sony are not allowed to do x, y, z' but the principle is there and applies to any company. The fact iapetus managed to get a refund shows that it is possible, if people don't know how to or decide not to exercise their rights - that's a different issue.

There is not a lack of clarity, just difficulty in getting Sony to take responsbility for their actions. This would go for any company and you are right, in terms of the Wii removing the mp3 playback - in principle you are correct but you need to consider the level of impact. There is a distinction -

The Wii box does not advertise mp3 playback as a feature, as far as I know.

I don't recall anyone from Nintendo going down the Sony route, they didn't say - 'hey, DVD playback, mp3 playback etc.'

mp3 playback is trivial compared to an OS.

I wasn't aware of any such capability and that does make a difference - if it is something that is not advertised, known or utilised, you can't say it has had a big impact on you.

The PS3 was advertised as more than just a games console, Linux wasn't a footnote or something which you can call trivial (like mp3 playback) - it was a selling point (the ability to play mp3s on your wii would not be a comparison)

You could complain to Nintendo but it would be a lot more difficult because of the stuff I outlined above. Technically, you are right (the removal of a feature) but losing an OS and mp3 playback, and under those conditions (ie. Sony advertising the feature as a selling point) it is not the same thing. Also, this is a thread about what Sony have done and you could compare with Nintendo but I've taken it on its own merits. Sony is not a special case, any company who does this is wrong but Nintendo, in this instance, is not an equivalence.
 

hirokazu

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dr_octagon said:
The law isn't, and can never be, so precise. It will always be tested and there are grey areas and loopholes and questionable aspects to many, maybe all, aspects of the law. Looking at the area which protects the consumer, it's not a grey area. The fact Sony's breach is done through a firmware update does not make it so either because they still removed a feature they advertised.

For the EU at least, it is not grey, it may be difficult to show as it's not as prominent as damaged or faulty goods (for example) but that doesn't mean the law does not support the notion. The law is there to be used, applied, interpreted and this falls well within the ambit of EU legislation. It may not say 'Sony are not allowed to do x, y, z' but the principle is there and applies to any company. The fact iapetus managed to get a refund shows that it is possible, if people don't know how to or decide not to exercise their rights - that's a different issue.

There is not a lack of clarity, just difficulty in getting Sony to take responsbility for their actions. This would go for any company and you are right, in terms of the Wii removing the mp3 playback - in principle you are correct but you need to consider the level of impact. There is a distinction -

The Wii box does not advertise mp3 playback as a feature, as far as I know.

I don't recall anyone from Nintendo going down the Sony route, they didn't say - 'hey, DVD playback, mp3 playback etc.'

mp3 playback is trivial compared to an OS.

I wasn't aware of any such capability and that does make a difference - if it is something that is not advertised, known or utilised, you can't say it has had a big impact on you.

The PS3 was advertised as more than just a games console, Linux wasn't a footnote or something which you can call trivial (like mp3 playback) - it was a selling point (the ability to play mp3s on your wii would not be a comparison)

You could complain to Nintendo but it would be a lot more difficult because of the stuff I outlined above. Technically, you are right (the removal of a feature) but losing an OS and mp3 playback, and under those conditions (ie. Sony advertising the feature as a selling point) it is not the same thing. Also, this is a thread about what Sony have done and you could compare with Nintendo but I've taken it on its own merits. Sony is not a special case, any company who does this is wrong but Nintendo, in this instance, is not an equivalence.
Well yeah, I was specifically mentioning US law, because the EU law seems to protect the consumers rather fine despite retailers attempts to skirt around it.

My comparisons to Wii Photo Channel's MP3 playback removed have always been to highlight how Nintendo did so while at the same time considering their obligations to the consumer in contrast to what Sony did here entirely in their own interests.

I don't recall whether Nintendo advertised the MP3 playback on the box or not, but I'm almost certain that they have touted it on their website amongst other things. But that just further highlights that even with a minor feature of a minor part of the Wii's functionality, whether it was advertised or not, care was taken not to permanently disable a feature that was available out of the box on the Wii.
 

dr_octagon

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hirokazu said:
Well yeah, I was specifically mentioning US law, because the EU law seems to protect the consumers rather fine despite retailers attempts to skirt around it.

My comparisons to Wii Photo Channel's MP3 playback removed have always been to highlight how Nintendo did so while at the same time considering their obligations to the consumer in contrast to what Sony did here entirely in their own interests.

I don't recall whether Nintendo advertised the MP3 playback on the box or not, but I'm almost certain that they have touted it on their website amongst other things. But that just further highlights that even with a minor feature of a minor part of the Wii's functionality, whether it was advertised or not, care was taken not to permanently disable a feature that was available out of the box on the Wii.
The only reason I bring up it being advertised a lot more was because it turned out to be a selling point for people. If you complain about Nintendo, they take all the factors into account and look at how serious the breach is. It's a good point to make, as long as people don't think it is the same thing, I've mentioned the distinctions.

I can only say on the basis of EU law, US law doesn't seem to afford consumers the same level of protection
 

Z_Y

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Sorry for the bump...but I did not want to make a new thread and this was the first thread that popped up in the search about ps3 firmware.

Does anybody know the status on custom firmware for the PS3? I'm so sick of waiting. I think I just might update and be done with it. Really missing out on MAG and BF:BC2. Googling around is getting me nothing but old news. I haven't touched my PS3 in 2 months...and I miss it.
 

Tiduz

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May 20, 2006
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Z_Y said:
Sorry for the bump...but I did not want to make a new thread and this was the first thread that popped up in the search about ps3 firmware.

Does anybody know the status on custom firmware for the PS3? I'm so sick of waiting. I think I just might update and be done with it. Really missing out on MAG and BF:BC2. Googling around is getting me nothing but old news. I haven't touched my PS3 in 2 months...and I miss it.
Update, install linux on a cheap laptop or pc. :lol
 

Z_Y

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Goldrusher said:
:lol

Just update.

What's funny is that I have broke down twice now and downloaded the update...but by the time it finishes I talk myself out of actually going through with the update. lol :(

Tiduz said:
Update, install linux on a cheap laptop or pc. :lol
More interested in the homebrew capabilities. I would love to retire my OG Xbox for an HD equivalent.
 
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Z_Y said:
More interested in the homebrew capabilities. I would love to retire my OG Xbox for an HD equivalent.
Have you tried the built in media streaming capabilities? They're not as polished or quite as user friendly, but they're certainly adequate if you download PS3 Media Server on your PC. I use it all of the time.
 

Pandaman

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Z_Y said:
Does anybody know the status on custom firmware for the PS3? I'm so sick of waiting. I think I just might update and be done with it. Really missing out on MAG and BF:BC2. Googling around is getting me nothing but old news. I haven't touched my PS3 in 2 months...and I miss it.
You will most likely never access psn with that system ever again if you wait for custom firmware.
 

CadetMahoney

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SmokyDave said:
Fucking kids valuing the good name of their favourite company over the money hard-earned by their parents. Idiots, each and every one of them.
Defending their corporate masters in such a manner is something they'll probably never grow out of judging by the amount rolled over from last gen. heh
 

nolookjones

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i still have not updated...there is just nothing that has got me exited to upgrade (so far) on the other hand i am excited for xbmc for ps3 linux if it supports gpu mkv decoding...

also i have a 360 and gaming pc so that helps...
 

Afrikan

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Z_Y said:
What's funny is that I have broke down twice now and downloaded the update...but by the time it finishes I talk myself out of actually going through with the update. lol :(



More interested in the homebrew capabilities. I would love to retire my OG Xbox for an HD equivalent.
I have always said it might be worth it to just get an extra PS3 Slim, for gaming.

I know if I was interested enough to keep linux on my PS3 phat....I'd just spend the extra $299 or maybe find one cheaper on Craigslist.

if you can afford it.
 

Zoe

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Afrikan said:
I have always said it might be worth it to just get an extra PS3 Slim, for gaming.

I know if I was interested enough to keep linux on my PS3 phat....I'd just spend the extra $299 or maybe find one cheaper on Craigslist.

if you can afford it.
If he's gonna dish out the money, he might as well get an HTPC that can do all of that better than the PS3.
 

Naked Snake

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nolookjones said:
i still have not updated...there is just nothing that has got me exited to upgrade (so far) on the other hand i am excited for xbmc for ps3 linux if it supports gpu mkv decoding...

also i have a 360 and gaming pc so that helps...
You probably know this, but it's really easy to convert MKVs to VOB and having them play perfectly on PS3. No transcoding done so there's no quality loss and the process is fast. Check out a program called MKV2VOB and another called GOTSent.
 

nolookjones

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Naked Snake said:
You probably know this, but it's really easy to convert MKVs to VOB and having them play perfectly on PS3. No transcoding done so there's no quality loss and the process is fast. Check out a program called MKV2VOB and another called GOTSent.
ya i use ps3 media server to do this (since it does this in real time) and thats actually what my ps3 gets used for the most...
 

MrPliskin

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I don't get why people who don't think this is a big deal are all of the sudden "corporate apologists" or "shills". Some of us could just give a fuck about useless features.
 

firehawk12

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Z_Y said:
What's funny is that I have broke down twice now and downloaded the update...but by the time it finishes I talk myself out of actually going through with the update. lol :(
Hah, me too unfortunately. And I don't even use the Linux all that much. I think I'm just going to bite the bullet and update whenever the next firmware comes out.
 

Naked Snake

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nolookjones said:
ya i use ps3 media server to do this (since it does this in real time) and thats actually what my ps3 gets used for the most...
Do you use a wired connection? Since most MKV files are HD, I can't imagine that working well over wireless.
 

Gareth Bale

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iapetus said:
http://mycodehere.blogspot.com/2010/04/sony-ps3-linux-saga-part-2.html

The good read continues. :D I give the guy full credit for refusing a full refund on the basis that it doesn't come with an admission of guilt.
He bitched out in the end. From this

But then reading on to the part John Lewis remain not liable [sic] for what has happened to your product... I realised that I hadn't won after all. What I want is neither a partial £75 compensation, nor a return for a full refund - both of which I've now been offered - what I want is just my retailer's acknowldegement that giant corporations like Sony cannot simply EULA their blustering way past any and all consumer protection legislation, to steal from me in my living room, or at my place of business.

John Lewis are indeed liable. They should accept their responsibilities under EU Law. Yes, they are also victims; but they should be kicking Sony's arse, not their own customers.

I'm about to decline this latest offer, just as soon as my language cools down to the optimum temperature for discursive efficiency. Meanwhile, as we prepare for war both in the media and in the Sheriff Court, we should perhaps pause to see what happens next in America. For it is extremely gratifying at last to see Anthony Ventura, a user from California, launch a class-action suit against Sony, alleging deceptive business practices:
To this

What more was there to be gained by going to court? A full refund, upon return of my PS3, if I "won"? - I'd already been offered that level of settlement, out of court, but I didn't particularly want to lose my console.

The End.
Disappointing and in the end very hypocritical.
 

Neuromancer

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MrPliskin said:
I don't get why people who don't think this is a big deal are all of the sudden "corporate apologists" or "shills". Some of us could just give a fuck about useless features.
OK, but don't come here to bitch when Sony or some other company uses this as a precedent to take away some feature you DO care about.

Also, I believe you mean "couldn't give a fuck." If you "could just give a fuck" that would mean you did care, at least a little.
 

iapetus

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MrPliskin said:
I don't get why people who don't think this is a big deal are all of the sudden "corporate apologists" or "shills". Some of us could just give a fuck about useless features.
If you don't care, that's fine. It's the people who tell people who do care about the feature or about the principle that companies shouldn't be able to pull features from a product that you bought and spent money on without you having any recourse that are corporate apologists and shills.

I spent good money on upgrading my PS3 so that I could run Linux on it sensibly - got a wireless multimedia keyboard/mouse setup, a much larger HD, that sort of thing. I used Linux on PS3 and was interested in using it more in the future. So if you want to tell me that this is an irrelevant feature that nobody uses and I'm just whining and that Sony can do what they like and I should just lap it up because I can still play games on the PS3 that was sold as much more than a games console then yes, you're a corporate shill.

Personally I think the principle that a company can sell hardware as having a set of features, then remove some of those features without good reason and without any form of compensation is an important one to stand up against. I dislike the apathy of people who think it just isn't important that we should cede so many rights to multinational companies, just because they aren't currently affected by the particular change that's being made - I think it's horribly short-sighted, and helps pave the way for future reductions of our rights. But if you don't care, don't care. Just don't tell me that I shouldn't.
 

iapetus

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Oni Jazar said:
So the iPhone hacker was full of it then?
Think it's more a case of him thinking he'd done more than he had - as I understand it he'd managed to create installable custom firmware, but it was still locked to one particular machine, which is bog all use given the hardware hoops you have to jump through to create it.
 

StuBurns

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Sony must have a reason to remove it, maybe they themselves have people try and hack the PS3 to see if it can be done and someone at Sony did it using the Other OS option. To me, they do have a right to protect their company. It sucks for anyone who removed the OS and didn't really want to, and Sony should have to do something as a company to make up for it. Possibly supply the users with an additional PS3 so they don't need to update the old one and remove the OS.

But, in principle, I can understand the need to protect against piracy, and if that's why they did it, fair enough.
 

MutFox

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iapetus said:
If you don't care, that's fine. It's the people who tell people who do care about the feature or about the principle that companies shouldn't be able to pull features from a product that you bought and spent money on without you having any recourse that are corporate apologists and shills.

I spent good money on upgrading my PS3 so that I could run Linux on it sensibly - got a wireless multimedia keyboard/mouse setup, a much larger HD, that sort of thing. I used Linux on PS3 and was interested in using it more in the future. So if you want to tell me that this is an irrelevant feature that nobody uses and I'm just whining and that Sony can do what they like and I should just lap it up because I can still play games on the PS3 that was sold as much more than a games console then yes, you're a corporate shill.

Personally I think the principle that a company can sell hardware as having a set of features, then remove some of those features without good reason and without any form of compensation is an important one to stand up against. I dislike the apathy of people who think it just isn't important that we should cede so many rights to multinational companies, just because they aren't currently affected by the particular change that's being made - I think it's horribly short-sighted, and helps pave the way for future reductions of our rights. But if you don't care, don't care. Just don't tell me that I shouldn't.
.

I had to format my PS3 the other day to remove Linux,
as i couldn't upgrade the firmware properly without that step.

That really pissed me off...

I too bought a bigger HD for Linux features,
and was robbed by Sony.

I want some compensation.
Plus, if they were bring Linux back,
I'd have to format my PS3 again... BS time wasting.
 

Massa

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iapetus said:
Think it's more a case of him thinking he'd done more than he had - as I understand it he'd managed to create installable custom firmware, but it was still locked to one particular machine, which is bog all use given the hardware hoops you have to jump through to create it.
Sadly, Sony also seemed to think he'd done more than he had. :-(
 

iapetus

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StuBurns said:
Sony must have a reason to remove it
It's cheaper to not put in the time/effort to keep the feature up to date. There's your reason right there.

StuBurns said:
maybe they themselves have people try and hack the PS3 to see if it can be done and someone at Sony did it using the Other OS option. To me, they do have a right to protect their company.
To me, they don't have a right to take away a feature I paid for and used without compensating me for it, and threaten me with loss of other fundamental functionality of the device if I want to keep the feature. European law backs me up on this.

StuBurns said:
But, in principle, I can understand the need to protect against piracy, and if that's why they did it, fair enough.
Bullshit. I'm sick of companies assuming that I'm going to be a pirate because it's potentially possible.
 

koji

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Still rocking it with fw 3.15...

Anyone happen to know that I can play Avatar with 3.15? Got it as a present but haven't inserted the disc yet. Should just try it out.
 

ymmv

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Mar 17, 2007
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Z_Y said:
Sorry for the bump...but I did not want to make a new thread and this was the first thread that popped up in the search about ps3 firmware.

Does anybody know the status on custom firmware for the PS3? I'm so sick of waiting. I think I just might update and be done with it. Really missing out on MAG and BF:BC2. Googling around is getting me nothing but old news. I haven't touched my PS3 in 2 months...and I miss it.
You're crazy waiting for George Hotz's custom firmware. The guy was just full of hot air. What's more important: having fun playing games each day or tinkering a couple of hours with PS3 Linux when you can have a far better Linux experience on your PS3 (which includes a fully functional XBMC). Just update your PS3 and start playing games again.
 

hirokazu

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Naked Snake said:
You probably know this, but it's really easy to convert MKVs to VOB and having them play perfectly on PS3. No transcoding done so there's no quality loss and the process is fast. Check out a program called MKV2VOB and another called GOTSent.
I just discovered the other day, use the option to remux to AVCHD in MKV2VOB, you don't have to split your file up into 4GB (well you do, but the split is seamless on playback), and you get soft subtitles you can toggle if you feed it a subtitle file.

Bungieware said:
...disappointing and in the end very hypocritical.
Wow, what a copout. Guess he wasn't prepared to waste his money as a martyr to test the waters for others, and give a good show for the Internet.

koji said:
Still rocking it with fw 3.15...

Anyone happen to know that I can play Avatar with 3.15? Got it as a present but haven't inserted the disc yet. Should just try it out.
The game, or the movie? Movie works with no problems. Last Blu-ray I got was Evangelion 2.22 from two weeks ago and that works too. I wonder how long before discs come out that don't work on 3.15 and below.

iapetus said:
Think it's more a case of him thinking he'd done more than he had - as I understand it he'd managed to create installable custom firmware, but it was still locked to one particular machine, which is bog all use given the hardware hoops you have to jump through to create it.
Basically, hypervisor is hacked, Sony goes nuts and punishes all its users, and at the end of the day, no one has any idea how to use the hypervisor vulnerability to do anything on the XMB side anyway.

We'd all be better off had nothing happened at all, despite all the promises of true region-free and other good things that custom firmware and homebrew may bring, haha. :(

StuBurns said:
Sony must have a reason to remove it, maybe they themselves have people try and hack the PS3 to see if it can be done and someone at Sony did it using the Other OS option. To me, they do have a right to protect their company. It sucks for anyone who removed the OS and didn't really want to, and Sony should have to do something as a company to make up for it. Possibly supply the users with an additional PS3 so they don't need to update the old one and remove the OS.

But, in principle, I can understand the need to protect against piracy, and if that's why they did it, fair enough.
And here, we go back in circles! Round and round and round...
 

koji

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hirokazu said:
The game, or the movie? Movie works with no problems. Last Blu-ray I got was Evangelion 2.22 from two weeks ago and that works too. I wonder how long before discs come out that don't work on 3.15 and below.
The movie, thx! (edit)

Yeah it'll probably won't last... Think I'll buy a slim instead of upgrading my EU launch console, box it, leave it 3.15 and add it to my modest "gamingcollection" :)
 

charlequin

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Oct 19, 2005
26,635
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Mako_Drug said:
Psst...what the hell are you talkin about??
OtherOS was regularly updated and required specific changes in new firmware releases to keep it working over time. It was a non-zero expense for a feature Sony no longer saw a promotional benefit from.
 

Mako_Drug

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charlequin said:
OtherOS was regularly updated and required specific changes in new firmware releases to keep it working over time. It was a non-zero expense for a feature Sony no longer saw a promotional benefit from.
Ah, I was under the impression it was completely seperate from the actual PS3 firmware. Interesting.

I still doubt that the reasoning behind the removal of the feature was in anyway motivated by costs incurred in making firmware compatable. It might have made the decision easier for them, but it never would have happened without the piracy threat.
 

MrPliskin

Banned
Jan 22, 2009
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iapetus said:
If you don't care, that's fine. It's the people who tell people who do care about the feature or about the principle that companies shouldn't be able to pull features from a product that you bought and spent money on without you having any recourse that are corporate apologists and shills.

I spent good money on upgrading my PS3 so that I could run Linux on it sensibly - got a wireless multimedia keyboard/mouse setup, a much larger HD, that sort of thing. I used Linux on PS3 and was interested in using it more in the future. So if you want to tell me that this is an irrelevant feature that nobody uses and I'm just whining and that Sony can do what they like and I should just lap it up because I can still play games on the PS3 that was sold as much more than a games console then yes, you're a corporate shill.

Personally I think the principle that a company can sell hardware as having a set of features, then remove some of those features without good reason and without any form of compensation is an important one to stand up against. I dislike the apathy of people who think it just isn't important that we should cede so many rights to multinational companies, just because they aren't currently affected by the particular change that's being made - I think it's horribly short-sighted, and helps pave the way for future reductions of our rights. But if you don't care, don't care. Just don't tell me that I shouldn't.
I think Sony had reason good enough to close a security exploit.

Still, I think it's a bit dramatic to think that this paves the way for the exploitation of consumers and future reductions of our rights. Consumers will understandably be upset, but I don't think that Sony, or any other corporation, would be willing to start removing things essential to the core use of the system. It is unfortunate that this happened, but it happened with good reason (at least IMO) and in the long run will stand to the benefit of users who value things like a secure platform.

I do wish to take the discussion further and talk about some other things, but I don't want to be banned again for talking modding / hacking / piracy. Maybe we could discuss it privately over PM or something? I think there is a good amount of discussion to be had here, but not good enough to lose my posting privileges over :p