Support NeoGAF

[mclem]

but I don't know what that means for the hardware. Is there anything that says the PS3 will play every game that ever comes out in the future? Or is it acceptable that future games require firmware updates for whatever reason?

Just playing around with terminology - but not actually changing the setup behind all this - how would it 'feel' if presented as follows:

1) Sony announces that the newest model of PS3 Slim is in fact going to be the "PS3x" when it is released.
2) Sony releases a new firmware with the "PS3x", and at the same time pushes a "free upgrade" to all PS3s... which also removes OtherOS, "but makes them compatible with PS3x titles"
3) All future software titles are labelled "PS3x" rather than "PS3"

It's exactly the same, fundamentally, as the 3.36 release, as far as I can determine; however, I wonder if simply fiddling with the branding like that would alleviate complaints. It'd at least avoid the risk of someone who doesn't wish to upgrade possibly buying software they couldn't run, and it avoids the question you posed neatly.

 

[Dibbz]

I'm assuming that the IRC log isn't a fabrication. It reads in a fairly valid manner, and leads to some fairly straightforward conclusions.

There are really two things to remember here:

1. If Sony revokes the pre-existing keys that they have, pre-existing software (like games on discs) won't run. Therefore they won't revoke those keys.

2. Any system on the internet is vulnerable.

What they've done here is added a vulnerability to the PS3 - one that a couple of guys on IRC can learn how to use.

I'm hoping that the new vulnerability uses a new private/public key combination to validate any code that it executes.

The theoretical doomsday scenario is that someone finds their way on to a PSN login server, uploads a little executable that bricks PS3s (all you really need to do is throw any old set of bits at the boot flash), and installs a script to use the remote execution functionality.

I'm not saying that it's trivial, but the script and the bricker can be prepared ahead of time, and eventually a sysadmin at Sony is going to slip up and some hacker will be on the inside. That is if one wasn't a year or three ago and left a rootkit.....

Yeah but this sounds like the same system the MS uses for the 360 that allows them to block consoles. No one has managed to hack the Live servers and brick consoles remotely there, so what makes you think it will happen to Sony?

 

[Grampa Simpson]

Yes, but there's nothing stopping them from revoking them for future firmware updates...

(To clarify, I mean the actual firmware update.pup, from 3.56 onward those are going to be signed with a new key. I would expect game executables etc. to also be signed with a new key going forward, possibly one that changes periodically...so you will see a new FW update and new games signed with a new key...then if you are on CFW and you want to play those new games, you will have to wait for the hackers to decrypt the FW update and extract the public key from it...doesn't something like this already happen with PSP? Anyway, of course game executables signed with the old key will continue to work on future firmwares...)

There's a lot of logic surrounding this that I haven't thought about yet.

Oh well. End of fun time for me. Time to go to work. Yay.

 

[Zoe]

Sony don't need to revoke the keys. They just use the new, fixed keys they implemented in 3.56. They then include a value in the file header that identifies itself as using the new keys and the PS3 will decrypt it.

So why were so many people saying before that this would be impossible?

 

[LiquidMetal14]

Yeah but this sounds like the same system the MS uses for the 360 that allows them to block consoles. No one has managed to hack the Live servers and brick consoles remotely there, so what makes you think it will happen to Sony?

You're right. Should ease some folks but others have jumped the ship and yelled atop roofs it seems lol

 

[gregor7777]

Yeah but this sounds like the same system the MS uses for the 360 that allows them to block consoles. No one has managed to hack the Live servers and brick consoles remotely there, so what makes you think it will happen to Sony?

Because you can't run unsigned code on the 360. It must come from MS.

(not that I'm too concerned about the security risks with this particular update, but simply as an answer to your question)

 

[FunkyPajamas]

1995 - Nothing as awesome as building my own serial cable. Downloaded Slackware floppies - wrote the A series to actual floppies (1.44mb baby!) and installed the other series from a DOS partition on the same disk.

Hahahaha, I can't believe it, I did that as well. 1996, though. Slackware over a dial up connection from my university which disconnected itself every 60 minutes.

Speaking of dial up, I remember the first time I downloaded an MP3 and told my friends that I didn't see why anybody would want to have to wait for music to download when they could just go to the store and buy it. Goddamn do I feel dumb every day.

Sorry for the off topic.

 

[Raist]

Because you can't run unsigned code on the 360. It must come from MS.

(not that I'm too concerned about the security risks with this particular update, but simply as an answer to your question)

You can;t run unsigned code on a PS3 with OFW either.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

So why were so many people saying before that this would be impossible?

This is about PSN. Different subject. Nobody suggested that Sony couldn't protect PSN. Only that they can't protect the consoles from running content signed by parties not named Sony.

 

[jcm]

And not that they have any legal standing inasmuch as they go against consumer rights.

Which consumer right does auto-updating go against? Do you think Google Chrome violates your rights by auto-updating?

 

[Zoe]

This is about PSN. Different subject. Nobody suggested that Sony couldn't protect PSN. Only that they can't protect the consoles from running content signed by parties not named Sony.

People were saying that it would be impossible for Sony to issue new keys.

 

[N.A]

So why were so many people saying before that this would be impossible?

- Anything can be decrypted as the public keys are always accessible.
- Anything can be signed with old keys and work on any PS3 unless Sony includes a whitelist/blacklist.
- Sony can blacklist the old keys for remote code execution as they have nothing that uses it.

 

[Dibbz]

Because you can't run unsigned code on the 360. It must come from MS.

(not that I'm too concerned about the security risks with this particular update, but simply as an answer to your question)

Yes but what use is writing something for the PS3 when you cannot control what PSN is going to ask your PS3?

Just seems like people are blowing this a bit out of proportion.

 

[tzare]

Oh, believe me, I've already blocked connections to playstation.net in my router's firewall. My PS3 can't talk to Sony no matter how it tries with the current firmware. us.np.stun.playstation.net is the server that the PS3 contacts at boot time.

oh, then no issues i guess if you can block it .

 

[Dreams-Visions]

People were saying that it would be impossible for Sony to issue new keys.

No, they weren't. They were saying Sony could not invalidate the old keys. And old keys will always mean access and potential avenues to get new keys. Iirc

 

[Mithos]

Yes, but there's nothing stopping them from revoking them for future firmware updates...

(To clarify, I mean the actual firmware update.pup, from 3.56 onward those are going to be signed with a new key. I would expect game executables etc. to also be signed with a new key going forward, possibly one that changes periodically...so you will see a new FW update and new games signed with a new key...then if you are on CFW and you want to play those new games, you will have to wait for the hackers to decrypt the FW update and extract the public key from it...doesn't something like this already happen with PSP? Anyway, of course game executables signed with the old key will continue to work on future firmwares...)

won't this be very difficult to do since:

Any PS3 that is not running 3.56, and need to update would have the firmware-update to be signed with the old keys to run/execute, does it not?

Having the 3.56+ firmware allow the old games with the old keys to run is easy, and to require the new game to use the new keys are too.

 

[gregor7777]

Yes but what use is writing something for the PS3 when you cannot control what PSN is going to ask your PS3?

Just seems like people are blowing this a bit out of proportion.

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking here.

People here are concerned about PS3's running malicious programs introduced on to the system by a back door introduced by Sony allowing code to be run without consent of the user.

I'm not seeing the concern as I'm struggling to see how they'll get past the monumental task of getting an unmodified PS3 to download from a source other than Sony (surely you're not suggesting the worry is that Sony's content delivery system will hacked? you'll have much bigger problems than this if that's the case).

But I'm not sure where your question fits in to that.

 

[jsnepo]

Let's say a hacker is able to spread his malicious code to all online PS3s through this backdoor, will the PS3s run that code if they're on OFW?

 

[Argyle]

won't this be very difficult to do since:

Any PS3 that is not running 3.56, and need to update would have the firmware-update to be signed with the old keys to run/execute, does it not?

Having the 3.56+ firmware allow the old games with the old keys to run is easy, and to require the new game to use the new keys are too.

Right, if you are on 3.55 the system is still exploitable. We're talking about systems that have already upgraded to 3.56 - they can then implement a new security method (new keys, etc.) to validate future firmware updates > 3.56. They can blacklist firmware updates on the old keys because you aren't allowed to downgrade below 3.56 at that point anyway.

If they build their firmware packages in a sensible manner, I'm sure they can build a hypothetical 3.60 firmware that can be installed from 3.55 and still pass the new integrity check. Worst case it might require an intermediate installation to 3.56...I don't know enough about how they build their firmware updates to say.

 

[FoxhoundNL]

Ehmmm.. Shit. 3.56 may have killed my PS3. I saw some weird glitch for a second after installing yesterday, but I was still able to play online for a few hours without a problem. Now I'm turning on my PS3 with the DS3, and I hear it running for about 20-30 seconds while doing other stuff and then it shuts itself off. Trying to boot it up again, carefully watching the two led's near the blu-ray drive and..... the most fearful color of every ps3 owner is there again, yellow .

What to do? I still have Demon's Souls in it, is there anyway I can get it working for at least a few secs/mins again? I want to deactivate my account to... Oh fuckkkk.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

Ehmmm.. Shit. 3.56 may have killed my PS3. I saw some weird glitch for a second after installing yesterday, but I was still able to play online for a few hours without a problem. Now I'm turning on my PS3 with the DS3, and I hear it running for about 20-30 seconds while doing other stuff and then it shuts itself off. Trying to boot it up again, carefully watching the two led's near the blu-ray drive and..... the most fearful color of every ps3 owner is there again, yellow .

What to do? I still have Demon's Souls in it, is there anyway I can get it working for at least a few secs/mins again? I want to deactivate my account to... Oh fuckkkk.

While you may be telling the truth, why post it here?

You try the holding of the power button? Or letting the system "cool down" then trying to see if it starts up long enough to eject the disc?

 

[davepoobond]

i dont see the difference between this and sony installing the whole xmb os on my ps3.


GET THAT SHIT OFF SONY, I DONT WANT MY PS3 TO BE USED FOR ANYTHING, I DONT WANT YOUR XMB FORCED DOWN MY THROAT OR YOUR PS3 GAMES

I WANT TO PLAY MY XBOX360 ON YOUR PS3 CUZ IT LOOKZ NICERZ

 

[N.A]

No, they weren't. They were saying Sony could not invalidate the old keys. And old keys will always mean access and potential avenues to get new keys. Iirc

Yes but only public keys,not private keys.

The state of the PS3's security is like this:

- All PS3's can run code signed with the old keys.
- 3.56 PS3's have no way to get homebrew on them. (unless it's already there)
- Anyone using CFW will always be able to decrypt/sign with old keys unless they update to OFW.
- All PS3's are forever vulnerable to a hardware hack that can downgrade them because metldr isn't updatable. (only a hardware revision will fix this)

Add to this that Sony has many ways to detect and ban people using CFW on PSN.

Essentially (and this is the same as I posted weeks ago):
- PSN is now pretty much secure.
- Offline CFW will be cat & mouse. (and all currently sold PS3's will forever be able to install it, though any on 3.56 or higher this will be difficult)

 

[LiquidMetal14]

Yes but only public keys,not private keys.

The state of the PS3's security is like this:

- All PS3's can run code signed with the old keys.
- 3.56 PS3's have no way to get homebrew on them. (unless it's already there)
- Anyone using CFW will always be able to decrypt/sign with old keys unless they update to OFW.
- All PS3's are forever vulnerable to a hardware hack that can downgrade them because metldr isn't updatable. (only a hardware revision will fix this)

Add to this that Sony has many ways to detect and ban people using CFW on PSN.

Essentially (and this is the same as I posted weeks ago):
- PSN is now pretty much secure.
- Offline CFW will be cat & mouse. (and all currently sold PS3's will forever be able to install it, though any on 3.56 or higher this will be difficult)

You're making a lot of sense.

 

[Zoe]

Ehmmm.. Shit. 3.56 may have killed my PS3. I saw some weird glitch for a second after installing yesterday, but I was still able to play online for a few hours without a problem. Now I'm turning on my PS3 with the DS3, and I hear it running for about 20-30 seconds while doing other stuff and then it shuts itself off. Trying to boot it up again, carefully watching the two led's near the blu-ray drive and..... the most fearful color of every ps3 owner is there again, yellow .

What to do? I still have Demon's Souls in it, is there anyway I can get it working for at least a few secs/mins again? I want to deactivate my account to... Oh fuckkkk.

Sorry to say, but your system was probably already on its way out before the update. Lots of people experienced the YLOD over the holidays.

You should head to this thread
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=150137

- Anyone using CFW will always be able to decrypt/sign with old keys unless they update to OFW.

But they wouldn't be able to decrypt software intended for 3.56 and above, correct?

 

[FoxhoundNL]

While you may be telling the truth, why post it here?

You try the holding of the power button? Or letting the system "cool down" then trying to see if it starts up long enough to eject the disc?

Why would I lie?

Anyway, letting the system cool down ain't gonna cut it I hadn't touched my PS3 for 18 hours before getting the YLoD... Fuck this shit, my second ps3 dying on me.

edit: I posted here because I was under the impression this was a 3.56 'OT', you know one where people come in taking a closer look at what's changed amd stuff.

edit2: thanks Zoe, I'm gonna take a look over there.

 

[Mr. Mister]

Right, if you are on 3.55 the system is still exploitable. We're talking about systems that have already upgraded to 3.56 - they can then implement a new security method (new keys, etc.) to validate future firmware updates > 3.56. They can blacklist firmware updates on the old keys because you aren't allowed to downgrade below 3.56 at that point anyway.

If they build their firmware packages in a sensible manner, I'm sure they can build a hypothetical 3.60 firmware that can be installed from 3.55 and still pass the new integrity check. Worst case it might require an intermediate installation to 3.56...I don't know enough about how they build their firmware updates to say.

This was my exact thought when this whole fiasco started.

 

[N.A]

But they wouldn't be able to decrypt software intended for 3.56 and above, correct?

They can decrypt it.
They can only encrypt it with the old keys.
(They have the public keys, but not the new private keys which are now fixed)

 

[LiquidMetal14]

Why would I lie?

Anyway, letting the system cool down ain't gonna cut it I hadn't touched my PS3 for 18 hours before getting the YLoD... Fuck this shit, my second ps3 dying on me.

I just find it ironic that you're posting it in this thread. Good luck to you though, really

And this is another specific thread branching off of the other 3.56 thread. It's more about this security they've added. What you have there is an unfortunate side effect that happens with OFW and CFW alike. You have my sympathies.

 

[Mithos]

What to do? I still have Demon's Souls in it, is there anyway I can get it working for at least a few secs/mins again? I want to deactivate my account to... Oh fuckkkk.

Not sure if you can get it running again to deactivate the account, but ejecting the disc should be easy.

Flip the switch on the back, press and hold eject, and flip the switch on the back again while still holding down eject = ejected disc, and ohh yeah the fans will go on a rampage too

 

[N.A]

It's quite funny on IRC right now. Sony have issued DMCA takedown notices to a lot of the sites hosting the keys. Now hundreds more mirrors are being set up on multiupload and the like.

 

[Jerk]

are you kidding? what a strawman argument if ever i saw one


have you not read how routers work. routers block ports. it would typically BLOCK the psn port, you open that port the ps3 is allowed BUT hackers can see it

until now it may have been protected, now it *may* (rumor) have a rootkit which is a trojan to allow remote execution of code

that is a big issue

Why would the PS3 be listening on any ports?

 

[LiquidMetal14]

It's quite funny on IRC right now. Sony have issued DMCA takedown notices to a lot of the sites hosting the keys. Now hundreds more mirrors are being set up on multiupload and the like.

That there is a losing battle. At least they're trying though.

 

[Dibbz]

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking here.

People here are concerned about PS3's running malicious programs introduced on to the system by a back door introduced by Sony allowing code to be run without consent of the user.

I'm not seeing the concern as I'm struggling to see how they'll get past the monumental task of getting an unmodified PS3 to download from a source other than Sony (surely you're not suggesting the worry is that Sony's content delivery system will hacked? you'll have much bigger problems than this if that's the case).

But I'm not sure where your question fits in to that.

No I agree with you. I'm just saying that the validation check that is in place now is remotely controlled by Sony. So how would anyone be able to take control of that and swap it out with a malicious program?

 

[mclem]

Let's say a hacker is able to spread his malicious code to all online PS3s through this backdoor, will the PS3s run that code if they're on OFW?

Well, yes. The code is run to attempt to identify that the PS3 is on OFW. Therefore it would have to run them to... detect that the PS3 is on OFW.

I, er, assume that the code is signed. Although it has now crossed my mind that it's possible that the code could be unsigned being how it's executed at quite a low-level, which makes things interesting!

 

[Zoe]

If a (malicious) hacker was able to break his way into the PSN servers, I'd worry more about a fake OFW than a little executable.

 

[jsnepo]

Well, yes. The code is run to attempt to identify that the PS3 is on OFW. Therefore it would have to run them to... detect that the PS3 is on OFW.

I, er, assume that the code is signed. Although it has now crossed my mind that it's possible that the code could be unsigned being how it's executed at quite a low-level, which makes things interesting!

I understand. I was actually asking if the code can be run on CFW but isn't that a better way to detect whether or not a PS3 has CFW? I mean if the code is signed and can't be run in CFW that means no reply can be given regardless if its validated or not. If no reply can be given then no access to PSN. I'm sorry but I know nothing about this.

 

[Foffy]

Essentially (and this is the same as I posted weeks ago):
- PSN is now pretty much secure.
- Offline CFW will be cat & mouse. (and all currently sold PS3's will forever be able to install it, though any on 3.56 or higher this will be difficult)

What makes it harder to run on 3.56, or is it because nobody has made the applications to run on that?

 

[Vagabundo]

1995 - Nothing as awesome as building my own serial cable. Downloaded Slackware floppies - wrote the A series to actual floppies (1.44mb baby!) and installed the other series from a DOS partition on the same disk.

Ahhh those where the days... lol

 

[spwolf]

No I agree with you. I'm just saying that the validation check that is in place now is remotely controlled by Sony. So how would anyone be able to take control of that and swap it out with a malicious program?

i would guess it is the same as if people would be concerned that someone could hack PSN and replace KZ3 demo with KZ3 demo with trojan inside that steals your credit card data.

and yet nobody is concerned about that... which is silly as both methods require same hack to the PSN servers themselves.

What is the difference here? There isnt any.

 

[JudgeN]

Yes but only public keys,not private keys.

The state of the PS3's security is like this:

- All PS3's can run code signed with the old keys.
- 3.56 PS3's have no way to get homebrew on them. (unless it's already there)
- Anyone using CFW will always be able to decrypt/sign with old keys unless they update to OFW.
- All PS3's are forever vulnerable to a hardware hack that can downgrade them because metldr isn't updatable. (only a hardware revision will fix this)

Add to this that Sony has many ways to detect and ban people using CFW on PSN.

Essentially (and this is the same as I posted weeks ago):
- PSN is now pretty much secure.
- Offline CFW will be cat & mouse. (and all currently sold PS3's will forever be able to install it, though any on 3.56 or higher this will be difficult)

Thanks for the easy to read update.

To the thread not NA

So whats the problem here? PSN is secure like it should be and CFW is offline (IMO like it should be).

 

[krypt0nian]

Good for Sony.

I'm looking forward to the moment Sony starts wielding the ban hammer.

Exactly. You can say what you will about jailbreaking your consoles and homebrew, but the cost of hacking/cheating online is never worth it for me.

Fuck cheaters.

 

[Argyle]

What makes it harder to run on 3.56, or is it because nobody has made the applications to run on that?

You're blocked from installing a CFW 3.56 from 3.56, because the FW update requirements have changed.

There is an exploit that allows you to downgrade to any firmware revision, but it requires a hardware hack (so you will have to open the console and start soldering). I don't think there are any commercially available solutions for this yet, but maybe there's a market for it and you'll see people produce these kits (I didn't watch the entire fail0verflow presentation so I don't know the specifics of this exploit).

 

[gblues]

I wonder if it would be possible to create a CFW that would run a virtualized OFW, and then trap the PSN RFE calls and pass it onto the OFW, which would provide the expected response and then return control back to the CFW. If I were trying to defeat this, that's what I'd explore.

 

[Zoe]

I wonder if it would be possible to create a CFW that would run a virtualized OFW, and then trap the PSN RFE calls and pass it onto the OFW, which would provide the expected response and then return control back to the CFW. If I were trying to defeat this, that's what I'd explore.

Good luck running any games on top of that. Memory usage is bad enough already.

 

[Argyle]

I wonder if it would be possible to create a CFW that would run a virtualized OFW, and then trap the PSN RFE calls and pass it onto the OFW, which would provide the expected response and then return control back to the CFW. If I were trying to defeat this, that's what I'd explore.

I posted this a few weeks ago:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=25281625&postcount=4607

Personally I wouldn't count on them getting this working...maybe it's possible but I don't think the community would spend that much time on it.

(Additionally I expect Sony will just keep you from signing onto PSN, but if the hackers really make an effort to defeat this check, then I would expect Sony to start issuing console bans if they think the machine has been tampered with.)

 

[GavinGT]

Jan 27 14:46:29 <Mathieulh> the server awaits a proper reply
Jan 27 14:46:34 <Mathieulh> and that reply isn't in the firmware

So they'll patch in response tables like C4Eva does for 360 firmware.

 

[Vinci]

This actually sounds like a pretty common sense method for cutting off PSN. Which I don't have too much trouble with, honestly, since PSN is theirs to do with as they please. I'm not thrilled with how they've executed it, but I can't really blame them for it if it's the only course they could take.

 

[obonicus]

What they've done here is added a vulnerability to the PS3 - one that a couple of guys on IRC can learn how to use.

Who would, though? I mean, it's not something you can brag about, since we're crossing over into an actual felony (as opposed to the legally gray area we've been in so far). Or are you just talking about some smart dude who just wants to fuck with everyone for no good reason?

I'm not saying that it's trivial, but the script and the bricker can be prepared ahead of time, and eventually a sysadmin at Sony is going to slip up and some hacker will be on the inside. That is if one wasn't a year or three ago and left a rootkit.....

You realize that this is FUD, right? As in full-out Microsoft vs. Linux 'you don't know what they might have left in' FUD.

 

[Argyle]

So they'll patch in response tables like C4Eva does for 360 firmware.

No, because tomorrow they can issue a new challenge to which the response is not known, without requiring legit users to update their firmware.

If they issue console bans then once you are caught, you're just never going to be able to sign into PSN again whether you update your response tables or not.

Also, it gets even murkier if they issue the bans in waves (so you get flagged for banning, then a month later, they swing the banhammer)