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PS4 Architect Mark Cerny: 'Cloud won't work well to boost graphics'
- Thread starter Audioboxer
- Start date
Why would it be? You can stream from a PS3 to a Vita.
No. Reads before what you bolded.
So you would spin the camera to the crowds only to be greeted by an empty stadium, then half a second later the crowds would 'warp in' to their seats as the cloud streaming catches up.
Arkam
Member
What I posted is fact. They could easily do that. Its been done before. Look up OnLive or GaiKai. So it COULD be used for that, though MS has indicated it has very different intended use. So yes Sony could very easily do the same thing, they just need to actually say they are
jordan0386
Member
Cerny says it wont work well. And provides nothing else.
The gaf'ers are learning me.
Its like developers non-MS, wont give it merit. But then Pro-MS developers are avoiding it too.
MS did say it would improve graphics. One of them shiny promos did say it.
The gaf'ers are learning me.
Its like developers non-MS, wont give it merit. But then Pro-MS developers are avoiding it too.
MS did say it would improve graphics. One of them shiny promos did say it.
Yes because MS is BSing people. That's it.
dragonflys545
Member
Guess what else they said that did not turn out to me true SMH. LOL some people are clueless.
idrinkalone
Banned
I remember years ago while my friend was working for symantec. He kept telling me about the cloud how it's the next big thing. And he was absolutely correct.
As for it improving graphics? I highly doubt that and I am a big xbox supporter. If people are expecting nes to snes graphical differences via the cloud. They will be very upset.
As for it improving graphics? I highly doubt that and I am a big xbox supporter. If people are expecting nes to snes graphical differences via the cloud. They will be very upset.
Arkam
Member
Not at all. They stated a fact. One that was an ambiguous fact and not easily defined and analyzed... so the internet/Gaf/etc made their own conclusions.
Why is it fact and not bs. They stated that having dedicated game servers vs player hosted games would save console side resources. That is a very simple and true fact. Now how much does it save and how those additional resources would be utilized in the real world will vary game by game (in that exact scenario).
I am not sure why everyone jumped all over MS for saying this... it wasnt a lie.
Yes PS CAN do the same thing, just like KIA CAN make a supercar to compete against Ferrari... but they havent yet.
"3x resources made available to developers"
"40x the power of xbox 360 with cloud"
Yea, fact indeed. When one person is told that something is made much powerful then as a product of it, visual improvements are to be expected because that is the first point of contact between the person and the product.
jordan0386
Member
This is Toy Story Graphics! all over again. But the internet wont just laugh it off.
Its great to call out bullshit when you see it. BUT, MS is not getting any sorta 'wait and see' approach with this.
Arkam
Member
Those quotes dont say anything about graphics just the very vague terms "resources" and "power".
First tell me the definition of both (of which you will find a variety)
I am going to for the sake of argument assume they were talking about computational power. Notice I never said real time or constant (neither did MS) Of which you could easily achieved. Lets just say EA made SPORE 2 and every night when you finished playing your gameplay data was sent up to the servers/cloud and it was crunched with 40x the computational power of your Xb1 and then send back the data on how the next level of evolution will go.
^^^ And thats off the top of my head. Can/Will are differnt things
No, they stated that your Xbone would be 4x more powerful thanks to the cloud. That you could improve physics, graphics, AI a lot by offloading computing to the cloud.
Feel free to believe that offloading server tasks will boost perfs by 300% tho.
Chobel
Member
What I posted is fact. They could easily do that. Its been done before. Look up OnLive or GaiKai. So it COULD be used for that, though MS has indicated it has very different intended use. So yes Sony could very easily do the same thing, they just need to actually say they are
But that's is different: what you're talking about is game streaming just like watching a movie, not improving graphics.
The "Toy Story graphics" hype is an appropriate callback, as the "infinite power of the cloud" hype is more or less Microsoft doing the exact same thing again.
Arkam
Member
Might want to re-read what I wrote. I mean you did quote it, so thats the least you could do.
My later post shows you a VERY simple example of how those number could be achieved.
Hell if you have an iPhone 4 or 5 you have an example in you hand. Use Siri, its the same concept. Phone records data, sends data to cloud where it is analyzed and returned to user. Why? Because iphone does not have the resources locally.
BleachAndPepsi
Banned
Okay but then you're just playing the semantics game. It doesn't matter that they didn't explicitly say "The graphics will be 10x better you guys!" They stated what they stated the way they stated it to muddy the waters. They know exactly how reactionary fanboys and evangelists can be, and used every opportunity to tout these "power" increases without ever clarifying exactly what they meant--hell, they still haven't clarified it.Those quotes dont say anything about graphics just the very vague terms "resources" and "power".
First tell me the definition of both (of which you will find a variety)
I am going to for the sake of argument assume they were talking about computational power. Notice I never said real time or constant (neither did MS) Of which you could easily achieved. Lets just say EA made SPORE 2 and every night when you finished playing your gameplay data was sent up to the servers/cloud and it was crunched with 40x the computational power of your Xb1 and then send back the data on how the next level of evolution will go.
^^^ And thats off the top of my head. Can/Will are differnt things
GoofsterStud
Member
Technically it will improve graphics if the game is streaming...from a powerful machine.
Streaming games suck. They didn't lie. They just didn't tell you how.
Streaming games suck.
They didn't lie. They just didn't tell you how.
Arkam
Member
Please go here -> http://www.onlive.com/
Its not like netflix. You have realtime input of games. And if you have a good network you dont notice its not local run.
There is a reason Sony bought GaiKai
andrerobot
Member
You can also make an Xbox ONE output pretty graphics if you connect a PS3 to the HDMI passthrough.
jordan0386
Member
Those quotes dont say anything about graphics just the very vague terms "resources" and "power".
First tell me the definition of both (of which you will find a variety)
I am going to for the sake of argument assume they were talking about computational power. Notice I never said real time or constant (neither did MS) Of which you could easily achieved. Lets just say EA made SPORE 2 and every night when you finished playing your gameplay data was sent up to the servers/cloud and it was crunched with 40x the computational power of your Xb1 and then send back the data on how the next level of evolution will go.
^^^ And thats off the top of my head. Can/Will are differnt things
Thats sounds cool. But its a clusterfuck still.
If a developer designed 15 levels. How is cloud supposed to improve those 15 levels, if said developer already finished them.
Arkam
Member
No Disagreements here at all.
I think they presented some very compelling features in the worst way possible.
They relied on buzzwords and PR speak instead of simply talking to gamers/devs
But still even though they were real Rtards about the PR it doesnt make the features bad. Hate the game not the player.... i think
jordan0386
Member
MS never talked about Gaikai-like stuff. Ever.
The way they made their comparison was not a matter of interpretation.
They said: XB1 is 10x 360. With the cloud, 40x.
They always presented it as a whole, and never tiny specifics of it that would be improved by a factor of 4x. That's utter BS, or extremely misleading at best. And that was done on purpose, drop the "oh it's just a misunderstanding!"
They tried to give several specific examples where calculations for lighting etc could be done on the cloud. That's BS too, because no matter if they got the equivalent of a pixar render farm for every XB1 out there, current internet limitations would make it completely pointless.
So yes, they just threw random BS out. Just like the way they like to add up BW numbers to make their consoles look more powerful than the competition's.
BleachAndPepsi
Banned
I think the cloud holds a lot of promise--for things like matchmaking and what have you. But it's really nothing new. It's just the latest buzzword. These types of things have existed for quite some time (granted mostly in the PC space).
It's also worth noting Sony has made mention of having the exact same cloud capabilities (aside from Gaikai), no doubt through the cloud servers they rent from Amazon (Yoshida mentions it here: http://www.polygon.com/2013/6/12/4424022/sony-shuhei-yoshida-says-ps4-cloud-computing-calculations).
Arkam
Member
First have you played Spore? If you havent I can understand why my reference coudl not make sense.
Essentially Spore was a game designed to have near countlessly unique gameplay experiences. Essentially you create a new life form and go through evolution. Your actions in one "level" (think of levels as sandboxes not a scripted event) are suppose to directly impact the later levels. So lets say you killed off all of one type of creature on you island... well in teh next level of evolution a creature that was its resource competitor would not flourish with them gone. ANd so on.
jordan0386
Member
Just how bad is the internet around the country? I know the speeds are not great in comparison to other turfs.
But some of yall make it sound like we are struggling to get games in COD in.
But some of yall make it sound like we are struggling to get games in COD in.
Metalmurphy
Member
Capabilities? Most definitely, what MS has that Sony probably doesn't is just ease of distribution/deployment and cost efficiency.
But Gaikai will provide a perfect PS3 experience, right?
It'll be the worst PS3 experience you can have.
jordan0386
Member
I havent played, but Im aware of.
What I meant with Clusterfuck was how could Cloud improve something like...Army of Two.
:/ Save the jokes.
Kazuma Kiryu
Member
Please go here -> http://www.onlive.com/
Its not like netflix. You have realtime input of games. And if you have a good network you dont notice its not local run.
There is a reason Sony bought GaiKai
Onlive and Gaikai aren't the same thing as the "power of the cloud" claimed by microsoft, by multiplying its power by a ridiculous number.
Onlive and Gaikai render EVERYTHING in the cloud and send a video stream to your device, input data is sent back, and the communication keeps on going. It's not the same thing as having pretty much the whole game running in your local box and asking for a datacenter somewhere around the world to "draw better graphics", as microsoft wants people to believe.
Assuming they get it working, that is, streaming lossy video and cutting it together with lossless, GPU-accelerated gameplay... is it going to look like anything other than kludgy garbage?
Well yeah, but I'd like to see Sony try and not exaggerate this feature as well.
jordan0386
Member
So you wouldnt be able to play PS3 games on PS4 offline?
The PS4 isn't BC, so no.
BleachAndPepsi
Banned
Eurogamer did an excellent write up of what the cloud is and isn't capable of (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-in-theory-can-xbox-one-cloud-transform-gaming). It's a great read, if you get a chance.
Pertinent information:
Every IT professional that got past junior level knows MS's depiction of cloud use is BS. Some facts need to be clarified:
- The term cloud is used to define nothing more than a computer farm, designed and configured to automatically balance it's load (CPU, memory, bandwidth, storage, etc). So, every other company can have it's 'cloud' and use it the way it pleases. MS or any company have no monopoly on this subject. Never had. Never will.
- Computer farms cost money. A lot. Even more if your biggest demand is CPU. It would be a lot cheaper should the demand be storage.
- This means the most likely use for computer farms, when it comes to the guy gaming in his living room, will be storing things. Persistent worlds, characters, chain of events, content, etc.
- This also means that the least likely use of those resources will be CPU heavy tasks. Calculating a lighting pattern is a task that drives a given CPU to 100% use, for a given amount of time. For complex and/or big scenarios, it could take something like 2 seconds. There claim that for every console there will be like 3 to 4 servers/devices is pathetic. It's more like 100 to 200 consoles per server/device.
- Then you can say: "Well, they'll just calculate things that don't change very often on the cloud, leaving the rest to the console itself". Well, then since there's no heavy use of the cloud for any given console, you can't expect the game graphics to be heavily improved, can you? This also defeats the 3 to 4 servers / devices per console claim. If you are light on cloud use, why would you need so many remote devices, anyway??
- What if your connection fails? Lighting goes off? Your game stops? This would be a major problem even if MS didn't make the 180 on always connected.
- If not for better graphics, cloud computing can and will be used to make other aspects of the experience get better. Keep in mind that XBone has it's big foot on other entertainment options (PS4 will probably follow this path sooner or later).
Chobel
Member
Please go here -> http://www.onlive.com/
Its not like netflix. You have realtime input of games. And if you have a good network you dont notice its not local run.
There is a reason Sony bought GaiKai
I agree with all what you're saying...but my point is that microsoft said you can use the cloud to improve the graphics, but those service don't improve the graphics. They are just streaming frames just like video but more interactive.
BleachAndPepsi
Banned
No doubt true. Which is why it's important to remember that Azure servers can be rented by any third party developer, even for games on competing platforms. Microsoft is a business first, and they know there's money to be had renting these things out to anybody.
Hell, Sony may up and rent a few.
Which would be fucking hilarious, as would the fanboy meltdown
You give me a concrete method of drastically (or even kinda) improving graphics by shoving non-compressible code thru an Internet line that runs at speeds ranging from less than 1MB/s up to possibly 6MB/s, and I'll eat my shoe.
BRocknRolla
Member
Yikes. We've got the blind leading the blind in here. Everything is all speculation at this point, and everyone here is merely doing just that. Since there are no real answers, people can say mostly whatever they want without fear of repercussion. While I'm not a fan of the whole "Wait and see how this turns out" approach to forum conversations, is this cyclical conversation really going anywhere? For people confused by all the PR and "cloud" talk, just keep in mind that no one has any real "answers." I wouldn't believe anyone at MS, Sony, or on this forum until results (or lack thereof) are shown.
I don't for a moment believe the PR regarding the cloud. All I was saying is that there's not much to go on, so the arguments in this thread have gotten pretty cyclical.
I don't for a moment believe the PR regarding the cloud. All I was saying is that there's not much to go on, so the arguments in this thread have gotten pretty cyclical.