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[mocoworm]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-07-27-ps4-keyboard-mouse-controller-replicates-pc-style-gaming

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tactical-Assault-Commander-4-PS4/dp/B00ZUNOSFU/

Fancy a bit of PC first-person-shooter-style gaming on your PlayStation 4? Meet the Tactical Assault Commander 4.

The TAC4 is a wired keypad / mouse controller that's designed to replicate PC-style gaming on PlayStation, which, from the pictures, means WASD movement and precise aiming with a mouse.

You'll spot a "Snipe" button, a "Quick" button and a "Walk" button, for extra care. The DualShock 4's d-pad are set in the WASD positions, with Triangle and Circle where Q and E would be, respectively.

Whether the Tactical Assault Commander 4 gives PlayStation players any competitive edge over their opponents remains to be seen. It doesn't look like it'll sit well on my lap, anyway.

Hori, most famous for making arcade sticks, has an official license from Sony to build the Tactical Assault Commander 4 to work with PS4 and PS3. It's due out 9th October 2015 priced just under £87, according to Amazon.

 

[Krejlooc]

and precise aiming with a mouse.

It uses an algorithm to map mouse motion to look acceleration to simulate a mouse like feel, but, like all these solutions, it doesnt have the precision of a mouse, not at all. Your camera control is still a function of time, unlike a mouse.

 

[Hamster Plugin]

£90? You might as well pay a little extra for a XIM4.

I'm not seeing any kind of a configuration app for this, and that is a huge issue because different games have different aiming systems. So this is probably made for Call of Duty and is going to feel horrible on almost all other games.

 

[glaurung]

Unless I am much mistaken, there was a similar third party mouse and keyboard USB connector for the PS3 and 360. Even though its sensitivity was quite configurable, the mouse movements translated to the game like shit.

The only good part was that you could use your own mouse and keyboard. This HORI thing is pretty expensive compared to that.

 

[DoublePayje]

The promotion of stuff like tac4 and xim is getting out of hand. This stuff is disgusting.

If you want to kill console shooter gaming, go on with this. Its a serious competitive advantage, league play in games like cod will suffer badly.

Im in for having personalized experiences, but not for competitive advantages. I cant change the rules of football, wear irregular hockey equipment or similar stuff in real world sports. There is no reason why videogaming should differ in this. I hope Sony and Microsoft make this unusable in multiplayer games.

 

[Donos]

Aren't there already adapters for this or was that just for PS3?

Edit:

The promotion of stuff like tac4 and xim is getting out of hand. This stuff is disgusting.

That's what they are called.

 

[glaurung]

I hope Sony and Microsoft make this unusable in multiplayer games.

If the USB dongle transmits regular controller signals, there's little they can do to detect/restrict this.

 

[Krejlooc]

Its a serious competitive advantage, league play in games like cod will suffer badly.

No it isnt. The advantage is in the way mice work, not the form. This doesn't work like a mouse. It works like an analog stick, only shaped like a mouse. It really provides no advantage at all.

 

[Noisepurge]

Unless I am much mistaken, there was a similar third party mouse and keyboard USB connector for the PS3 and 360. Even though its sensitivity was quite configurable, the mouse movements translated to the game like shit.

The only good part was that you could use your own mouse and keyboard. This HORI thing is pretty expensive compared to that.

i had the FragFX for the PS3,

which was better in some games but accuracy was still quite wild as the mouse is just doing the right analogue stick motions instead of moving a true PC cursor around.
Acceleration and drift were huge issues.

 

[Krejlooc]

i had the FragFX for the PS3,

which was better in some games but accuracy was still quite wild as the mouse is just doing the right analogue stick motions instead of moving a true PC cursor around.
Acceleration and drift were huge issues.

You can also use things like a chronusmax to do the same thing.

These types of solutions have been around for over decade a now, there is a reason they never catch on big with competitive scenes.

 

[Stilton Disco]

This just reminds me that my ideal control option still doesn't exist.

I love using a mouse. It's a brilliant input method, and perfect for so many games.

But I hate using a keyboard. Keeping my hand flat and constantly holding keys down to move about with the typical WASD controls is just horrible for me.

Ideally, I'd want a mouse in one hand, and basically a PS Move Navigation controller in the other. That way I'd have the precision of a mouse for aiming, and ease and comfort of an analogue sticked controller for general movement in the other.

Ah well,

 

[Bluekaveli]

Just redo that one

 

[Krejlooc]

This just reminds me that my ideal control option still doesn't exist.

I love using a mouse. It's a brilliant input method, and perfect for so many games.

But I hate using a keyboard. Keeping my hand flat and constantly holding keys down to move about with the typical WASD controls is just horrible for me.

Ideally, I'd want a mouse in one hand, and basically a PS Move Navigation controller in the other. That way I'd have the precision of a mouse for aiming, and ease and comfort of an analogue sticked controller for general movement in the other.

Ah well,

It's called the steam controller.

 

[jediyoshi]

No it isnt. The advantage is in the way mice work, not the form. This doesn't work like a mouse. It works like an analog stick, only shaped like a mouse. It really provides no advantage at all.

I wouldn't say not getting an advantage and not getting the advantage of a mouse are exclusive things. From a form factor standpoint, it's more simple to manage the location of a point aiming with a mouse using your hand, than a stick with your thumb.

 

[Noisepurge]

This just reminds me that my ideal control option still doesn't exist.

all of the FragFX controllers are literally what you describe.

I wouldn't say not getting an advantage and not getting the advantage of a mouse are exclusive things. From a form factor standpoint, it's more simple to manage the location of a point aiming with a mouse using your hand, than a stick with your thumb.

yeah, having one of these mice is like having a huge analogue stick, you can move it much more gently so accurate aiming is possible. But moving the stick/mouse around in fast motions is weird as it still tries to emulate an analogue sticks motions.

 

[Qassim]

No it isnt. The advantage is in the way mice work, not the form. This doesn't work like a mouse. It works like an analog stick, only shaped like a mouse. It really provides no advantage at all.

Yep - these things only provide a different form factor. The advantages of a mouse are far more than just its form factor.

I wouldn't say not getting an advantage and not getting the advantage of a mouse are exclusive things. From a form factor standpoint, it's more simple to manage the location of a point aiming with a mouse using your hand, than a stick with your thumb.

But not when it's mapped to analogue input, though? You're still not getting a pointing device.

 

[Krejlooc]

I wouldn't say not getting an advantage and not getting the advantage of a mouse are exclusive things. From a form factor standpoint, it's more simple to manage the location of a point aiming with a mouse using your hand, than a stick with your thumb.

Except that the mouse isnt reporting absolute position, it works like a non self centering stick in this instance, only activated by motion.

Any advantage you have in mobility of your wrist vs thunb is absolutely negated by the mechanics of how these things work. They dont report position accurately.

In fact, having used these types of mouse solutions - they are typically WORSE than a conparable analog stick.

 

[thunder_snail]

I'd rather they forget about the antiquated kb/m and move on to improve motion controls and replace the crappy wasd with a real analogue solution. VR is already making this happen sooner with lighthouse, oculus touch etc anyways.

 

[jediyoshi]

But not when it's mapped to analogue input, though? You're still not getting a pointing device.

Sure it is, I'd posit that when people typically use analog sticks, a majority of the time is spent moving the stick along the outside extremes due in part to it being more comfortable than having to manage varying amounts of pressure to get the area inbetween there and the center.

 

[Krejlooc]

Sure it is, I'd posit that when people typically use analog sticks, a majority of the time is spent moving the stick along the outside extremes due in part to it being more comfortable than having to manage varying amounts of pressure to get the area inbetween there and the center.

This is because of the way analog sticks work, period. Because everything you do requires time to actually achieve your desired action, moving in half steps on the analog stick just means it takes more time to reach your goal.

In fact, that preference reveals a major fault in how analog sticks work. People are more likely to use extremes and manage the amount of time they hit those extremes with, rather than try to select a more useful acceleration rate, because its much more difficult to gauge acceleration than it is to count time.

And, regardless, the way these "mice" work, you dont get the advantage you are talking about at all. Mice are digital inputs, they dont vary speed (or accelerations in this instance)

 

[BadWolf]

How I wish you could just connect a regular keyboard or whatever and be able to map buttons normally so that I can finally play fighting games comfortably on console.

 

[MaxiLive]

These devices never actually make the input 1:! as the game is still accounting for deadzones, stick acceleration etc so they usually feel awful with a mouse due to being floaty and accelerated which are settings that can't be fixed with sensitivity.

 

[SkoomaSuckinSwit]

You might as well pay a little extra for a XIM4.

I'm not seeing any kind of a configuration app for this, and that is a huge issue because different games have different aiming systems. So this is probably made for Call of Duty and is going to feel horrible on almost all other games.

Yup. This post right here.
Look mechanics vary wildly on console shooters; deadzone shape, look acceleration, etc.
Without the XIM custom computer/optical designed translated solutions, most games will feel wonky at best, and totally unplayable at worst.
Most kbam adapter manufacturers use Call of Duty to display their products, because that game has a perfect circle deadzone, and a super high max game look speed.
But you won't find one using Destiny for example, showing competitive play and using vehicles.

 

[Planet]

The first thing I deactivate on any PC is mouse accelleration. In default setting, the faster you move the mouse (over the same distance), the further the cursor goes. This kills intuitive movement, I hate it, a lot.

Tried one of those controllers back in the PS2 days, and found out, they cause negative mouse acceleration - the faster you move the mouse (over the same distance), the less far the view changes. Hated that even more, glad I just got it provided for free to write a review. Guess the shop that lend it to me wasn't happy with what I wrote...

 

[Krejlooc]

These devices never actually make the input 1:! as the game is still accounting for deadzones, stick acceleration etc so they usually feel awful with a mouse due to being floaty and accelerated which are settings that can't be fixed with sensitivity.

Thats because of the inherent difference between how an analog stick and a mouse work. A post explaining the difference:

original forum post I made with pictures inlined

So, I've seen people (not necessarily here) who can't quite figure out the advantage this control affords over a traditional thumbsticks, so I've created the following images to explain.
Thumbsticks work by giving the user control over acceleration of movement. The thumbsticks themselves don't actually control where your looking, but rather how much your view changes every tick. So here is a thumb stick that is centered for 4 hypothetical frames:

when the stick is centered, the degree of acceleration is 0, and you see that the direction the person is facing remains the same for all 4 frames. But if we tilt the stick slightly, like so:

now we see that we have a 15 degree change. So, in frame 1, we're still looking forward, then in frame 2, our view has shifted 15 degrees, then further and further until by frame 4, we're looking to our right. Now, we can push the stick further and make the rate at which our view changes increase in speed, like so:

now the change is 45 degrees. You see that, by frame 3, we're now looking to our right when, if we'd pushed the stick slightly less, it took us 4 frames. This is actually what we have control over, how fast the things change. but the fundamental flaw with this control method is you still have to wait until the game updates enough for you to face the desired direction. These thumbsticks have limits to their extents, so, for example, there is no way to push the stick far enough so that, by the very next frame, we're facing the complete opposite direction. There is always a few frames we have to wait.
Now, with touchpads (or with a mouse) we can directly select exactly which directly we want to face, on any given frame. It works like so:

you can see from left to right is actually a gradiant of positions which encompasses our view in 360 degrees. When we press in the middle, or don't press anything, we're looking forward. However, we can slide to different positions on the gradient and our view will match within the colored circle instantly:

with touch (and mouse) controls, we're not inputting the rate of change. We're inputting exactly where we want to look. That is the advantage mouse users have over controller users - they can instantly select any angle to use, where as controller users have to wait to get there. These touchpads afford the exact same advantage, without the need for a mouse.
Does that clear this up for anybody? Feel free to repost this anywhere else, btw.

.

 

[jediyoshi]

This is because of the way analog sticks work, period. Because everything you do requires time to actually achieve your desired action, moving in half steps on the analog stick just means it takes more time to reach your goal.

In fact, that preference reveals a major fault in how analog sticks work. People are more likely to use extremes and manage the amount of time they hit those extremes with, rather than try to select a more useful acceleration rate, because its much more difficult to gauge acceleration than it is to count time.

And, regardless, the way these "mice" work, you dont get the advantage you are talking about at all. Mice are digital inputs, they dont vary speed (or accelerations in this instance)

I'm still not sure what it is that's giving you the continued impression anyone is making the argument that these devices actually replicate the functionality of a mouse.

 

[laxu]

I had one of those Fragfx things on PS3. It was mostly all around terrible. Software and firmware were buggy pos, the devices were flimsy and crappy feeling and even had one that was DOA. When it worked, it worked poorly.

I see the Steam controller being the first viable thing for this but like always it would require developer support on the PS4 to work as a native controller instead of emulating another one. So most likely won't happen.

It really bugs me that controllers are handled so poorly on the PS4.I mean would it be too hard to get even things like game specific control mapping and sensitivity profiles or support anything but the default controller out of the box?

 

[Krejlooc]

I'm still not sure what it is that's giving you the continued impression anyone is making the argument that these devices actually replicate the functionality of a mouse.

Im discussing advantage, this thing has no advantage over a normal controller, let alone the functionality of a mouse.

Why not focus on the two paragraphs I wrote about analog sticks instead of the two sentences at the tail end about mouse acceleration?

 

[SkoomaSuckinSwit]

These devices never actually make the input 1:1 as the game is still accounting for deadzones, stick acceleration etc so they usually feel awful with a mouse due to being floaty and accelerated which are settings that can't be fixed with sensitivity.

XIM achieves it with its proprietary Smart Translator technology.
Not only that, you can tweek the feel every game with a variety of different settings: boosts, custom accelerators, deadzone size, etc.
FYI, I owned a XIM2, XIM3, and now own a XIM4.

 

[Unai]

This just reminds me that my ideal control option still doesn't exist.

I love using a mouse. It's a brilliant input method, and perfect for so many games.

But I hate using a keyboard. Keeping my hand flat and constantly holding keys down to move about with the typical WASD controls is just horrible for me.

Ideally, I'd want a mouse in one hand, and basically a PS Move Navigation controller in the other. That way I'd have the precision of a mouse for aiming, and ease and comfort of an analogue sticked controller for general movement in the other.

Ah well,

We're almost there!

 

[jediyoshi]

Im discussing advantage, this thing has no advantage over a normal controller, let alone the functionality of a mouse.

Why not focus on the two paragraphs I wrote about analog sticks instead of the two sentences at the tail end about mouse acceleration?

Great, it doesn't actually have any bearing on what I'm saying because I'm not saying anything contrary to it.

 

[Krejlooc]

Great, it doesn't actually have any bearing on what I'm saying because I'm not saying anything contrary to it.

Lol you just deleted a good 90 percent of your post because what you wrote doesn't gel with what I wrote at all, but you kept this gem. Well I won't let you off the hook:

I'm not focusing on the rest because there's nothing to say. Did you want me to also expand these concepts along with you? Would that clarify the fact that this isn't mutally exclusive to my train of thought?

I don't follow with the idea that there exists more 'useful' acceleration rates per the user, that'd imply they're also optimal in any other case and a trade off is simply being made. Any sensitivity that isn't set to its highest is inherently a disability.

My entire post is a refute to your "posit" that this controller offers an advantage in precision because people with analog sticks will automatically move them to their extents, thus eliminating any fine, low-acceleration movements that one would gain by half-steps, where this mouse would offer such an advantage.

Except it doesn't work like this. This thing doesn't even have half-steps. It's the equivalent of tapping the stick over rapidly in succession.

The "idea that there exists more useful acceleration rates per the user" is something YOU brought up. Do you know what analog sticks control? They control your acceleration rate.

 

[viHuGi]

No thanks. rather play with controller anyday of the week but good for people who like it

 

[Peltz]

Why not just play FPS games on the PC if you want mouse controls? Every PS4 FPS game other than Killzone is also on PC.

 

[Planet]

Every PS4 FPS game other than Killzone is also on PC.

You mean like Destiny? *troll*

 

[Stevey]

KB/M at 30 FPS? No thanks

 

[Yautja_Warrior]

Maybe if games like COD and Battlefield start doing Cross Play with PC, (Cross Play seems to be a growing trend at the moment) this would be handy for console players to even the odds against PC players.

Can't see this being a big hit with most console players though.

 

[jim2point0]

Why not just play FPS games on the PC if you want mouse controls? Every PS4 FPS game other than Killzone is also on PC.

Destiny!

 

[SkoomaSuckinSwit]

This just reminds me that my ideal control option still doesn't exist. Ideally, I'd want a mouse in one hand, and basically a PS Move Navigation controller in the other. That way I'd have the precision of a mouse for aiming, and ease and comfort of an analogue sticked controller for general movement in the other.

Ah well,

 

[Ashok]

Why not just play FPS games on the PC if you want mouse controls? Every PS4 FPS game other than Killzone is also on PC.

I own multiple XIM products and they are arguably the best gaming investment I have ever made. I love playing The Darkness, Killzone, Uncharted, Red Dead Redemption, and Resistance with my XIM. As far as why I didn't just play these shooters on PC... it's not even possible.

Granted with VR on the horizon I'm quickly losing interest in gamepads and M&K. Just give me a Sony Move, Vive, or Oculus Touch controller please.

 

[Astral/H3X]

Krej, while devices like this dont 100% replicate a mouse, they do get so close as to be close to be almost indistinguishable. At least, Xim3 and 4 do.

The way it works is that for every directly supported game it has a smart translator, which is specifically geared towards that game, and that game only. When you move your mouse, the XIM polls the location and then figures out specifically what control stick location and duration would get your aim there. Its actually really cool.

Now, it is still limited by a maximum turn speed, and is a bit slower than an actual mouse, but as long as you don't move faster than the game's maximum turn speed, it does get incredibly close to replicating the mouse. It negates acceleration, dead zones, wonky x/y sensitivity quirks, and center times.
Games like CoD end up feeling very, very close to mouse. Main difference is a bit of input lag.

 

[Skyzard]

KB/M at 30 FPS? No thanks

Yeah, that won't work well. Maybe if you despise controllers.

 

[SkoomaSuckinSwit]

Yeah, that won't work well. Maybe if you despise controllers.

While I def prefer 60fps shooters, 30fps and kbam work just fine actually.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SfQEOj9ssU

 

[darkside31337]

I hope Sony and Microsoft make this unusable in multiplayer games.

Its an officially licensed product. Sony is even promoting this thing now, you have Sony folks on Twitter tweeting about it as if its a good thing. Find it pretty gross. If you want to play KBM go play on a PC.

 

[SkoomaSuckinSwit]

Find it pretty gross. If you want to play KBM go play on a PC.

Lots of past consoles had kbam usage.
Dreamcast, PS2, PS3...even PSX had a planned kbam adapter.
Not counting consoles with controllers that had built-in number pads, or keyboard and joystick.

I believe traditionally, PC input was only keyboard, then keyboard and mouse.
Is it gross that PC gamers use a controller too?
Does anyone say to a PC gamer, "Gross - if you want to play that game with a controller, go play it on consoles" ?

 

[Durante]

XIM achieves it with its proprietary Smart Translator technology.

No it doesn't, because it's impossible. Regardless of how Smart (tm) you call your technology. It might get closer than its competitors, but you can never have absolute positioning in a game which only takes relative input over time.

 

[SkoomaSuckinSwit]

No it doesn't, because it's impossible. Regardless of how Smart (tm) you call your technology. It might get closer than its competitors, but you can never have absolute positioning in a game which only takes relative input over time.

I don't think I said "absolute".
How about "it has the in-game feel of 1:1", because it definitely does imo.

I've also owned SmartJoy Frag for Xbox, and some SniperPro version of another adapter (forget the manufacturer's name) for Xbox360, and those performed from average (with issues), to just poorly depending on the game.

As will the hardware that is the subject of this thread. Unless it comes with a suite of knobs, or hooks up to a PC, so it can be adjusted to suit each particular game.

 

[JP]

At that price it's no wonder they only give you a quarter of a keyboard, imagine how much it would cost if they included a full keyboard?

 

[Peltz]

Destiny!

Lol... woops. I forgot that it didn't get a PC release.

 

[The Faceless Master]

can only speak for the XIM and while it's not the same as proper mouse input, it's a definite advantage over using traditional analog sticks.