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PS4 Rumors , APU code named 'Liverpool' Radeon HD 7970 GPU Steamroller CPU 16GB Flash

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That's just California which goes on random holy crusades against various items. Outside of nanny state assholes nobody is mandating that sort of nonsense.

Shove a brick of soap in your mouth. Jesus Christ dude. Calm down. Yes, that IS just California. As I stated (if you would learn to read), that is still the largest state in the United States, and the home of SCEA. They can't just release a new console and NOT release it in California.
 

tinfoilhatman

all of my posts are my avatar
Shove a brick of soap in your mouth. Jesus Christ dude. Calm down. Yes, that IS just California. As I stated (if you would learn to read), that is still the largest state in the United States, and the home of SCEA. They can't just release a new console and NOT release it in California.

Yea it's not like everyone can drive to Nevada to buy the next playstation\Xbox, I wonder how much this is going to hold the new consoles power back?
 

Reiko

Banned
I don't get the hate for the Cell, do you guys not realize how bad the PS3 would have performed if it wasn't for the Cell?

Or an even crazier thought for the PS3... Xbox 360's GPU and the Cell...

The difference in console ports would be staggering.
 
Or an even crazier thought for the PS3... Xbox 360's GPU and the Cell...

The difference in console ports would be staggering.

It really would have, even with the split memory pools. The RSX was very weak in terms of shaders vs the Xenos...(is that the gpu?)
 

KageMaru

Member
Or an even crazier thought for the PS3... Xbox 360's GPU and the Cell...

The difference in console ports would be staggering.

Yeah that's likely true, though that type of console would take a significant investment.

Edit:

It really would have, even with the split memory pools. The RSX was very weak in terms of shaders vs the Xenos...(is that the gpu?)

Not so much weak, just less efficient which is where the performance gap is.
 

KageMaru

Member
True, looking at raw speeds, the RSX was faster, but IIRC the shader processing was pretty bad on it, and the Cell often had to do all of the shader work.

RSX wasn't faster (both are 500Mhz) and the bigger bottleneck with the GPU was vertex load, which is where the Cell helped with IIRC.
 

KageMaru

Member
I thought RSX was 550? Oh well. I should look things up before I type.

It was originally meant to be and if you look it up, say on wiki, it'll even say 550Mhz. It's hard to get reliable info on the RSX since Sony has info tied up with NDA, more so than the Cell which is pretty open in comparison.
 
http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_20806207/california-likely-set-energy-standards-
Several popular products -- including Microsoft's Xbox, Sony's PlayStation, Nintendo's Wii, set-top boxes used with cable and satellite television sets, personal computers and monitors -- would be affected. Because the commission has not yet settled on a definition for computers, it's not clear if tablets, like the popular iPad, will be included.

Here is that source for the california thing.
 

CorrisD

badchoiceboobies
Whats the PS3.5? Joke or?

Well Jeff_Rigby is pretty serious about it, he was expecting a PS3.5 that uses bew hardware to emulate the cell/rsx iirc and it would be arriving soon with a new Kinect like depth camera.

All we have actually had so far is this new PS3 version that looks to be nothing more than another slim cutdown with cheaper parts.
We will find out soon enough, we still have an Xbox361 to come too apparently, he supposedly took a "ban bet" on it, but those seem a bit silly to me, bets should be in biscuits and cookies.
 
Well Jeff_Rigby is pretty serious about it, he was expecting a PS3.5 that uses bew hardware to emulate the cell/rsx iirc and it would be arriving soon with a new Kinect like depth camera.

All we have actually had so far is this new PS3 version that looks to be nothing more than another slim cutdown with cheaper parts.
We will find out soon enough, we still have an Xbox361 to come too apparently, he supposedly took a "ban bet" on it, but those seem a bit silly to me, bets should be in biscuits and cookies.

You forgot html5 support.
 
Whats the PS3.5? Joke or?

It's not a half step over the PS3, it's more of a revised PS3 to be much slimmer. There is a confirmed "CECH-4000" model. It APPEARS larger in length and width compared to the current slim, but speculation is it is a lot slimmer, in height.

You forgot html5 support.

No reason why it (or current PS3's) won't get HTML5 support. It's not a hardware limitation, and there is proof that Sony has been working with all sorts of web related development.
 

Cyborg

Member
Well Jeff_Rigby is pretty serious about it, he was expecting a PS3.5 that uses bew hardware to emulate the cell/rsx iirc and it would be arriving soon with a new Kinect like depth camera.

All we have actually had so far is this new PS3 version that looks to be nothing more than another slim cutdown with cheaper parts.
We will find out soon enough, we still have an Xbox361 to come too apparently, he supposedly took a "ban bet" on it, but those seem a bit silly to me, bets should be in biscuits and cookies.


thank you...
 
Well Jeff_Rigby is pretty serious about it, he was expecting a PS3.5 that uses bew hardware to emulate the cell/rsx iirc and it would be arriving soon with a new Kinect like depth camera.

All we have actually had so far is this new PS3 version that looks to be nothing more than another slim cutdown with cheaper parts.
We will find out soon enough, we still have an Xbox361 to come too apparently, he supposedly took a "ban bet" on it, but those seem a bit silly to me, bets should be in biscuits and cookies.

He said 3.5 is just his speculation.
 

missile

Member
The SPE's can reach 98% theoretical performance using parallel matrix multiplication.

http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/power/library/pa-cellperf/
Just want to add this for those interessted;
http://tu-dresden.de/die_tu_dresden...alyse_von_hochleistungsrechnern/cell//matmul/


Those very very very very very small numbers of operations are the vast majority of what goes on in gaming, mostly graphics. What made Cell hard to work with was its small spe caches, a rather poor codebase at the start, and the programming model for inexperienced developers. ...
Back in the days programming was just like on Cell all the way down with all
the DMA stuff and custom chips. If one is used to only Intel's architecture
then his/her programming model is manly based on multi-threading and a
shared memory model, which is easier to program with but not as efficient if
the problem scales and esp. not if system resources are at a prime. Serious
parallel programming, the main issue today and for the foreseeable future,
can't be solved with Intel's (indoctrinated) multi-threading model. The
entire company is built around it, their microprocessor, compilers,
optimizers, etc. However, this model doesn't scale. Serious parallel
programming always starts with the data. One needs to be in control of the
data, i.e. of the movement of the data through the system. And the movement
of the data is heavily problem/algorithm dependent and can't be left alone
by letting the system guess which data is supposed to be required next, as
is the case in a coherent shared cache memory system which Intel relies on.
The performance of many old computers/consoles, like for example the Amiga
500, PS2 etc, weren't possible if they had a uniform system architecture
similar to today's PC. The uniformity eases the programming model and that's
about it. If system performance is of utmost importance, a non-uniform model
is used. If its not, a uniform is used. Consoles are usually all non-uniform
in their architecture for a bunch if good reasons. But some of them will
converge to a uniform system if performance is not of primary concern. And
this is to be expected since many games (perhaps targeted at a specific
audience) simply don't need that much performance to run, to transmit the
story, gameplay whatsoever.


I want a sprite system
This is just what I've described above. A hardware sprite system was
essentially build to release the CPU from blitting primitive graphics onto
the screen. It was the perfect solution to assemble a processor just for
this purpose, to blit sprites on the screen, i. e. to overlay the video
signal with sprite data, and do collision detection among them etc. But
since sprites are a very small problem esp. from today's perspective, and
since bandwidth and system clocks have increased a multifold on state of the
art microprocessor, they can be entirely programmed in software. Well, you
can use an entire SPE just as a sprite engine. Anyhow, as I've written above,
there are system where performance is at a prime and as such they can't
waste system resources - even today. So for example, the gameduino board has
a hardware sprite engine; http://excamera.com/sphinx/gameduino/.
There you go. :)
 

spwolf

Member
No reason why it (or current PS3's) won't get HTML5 support. It's not a hardware limitation, and there is proof that Sony has been working with all sorts of web related development.

yeah but why exactly do we care about HTML5 again on PS3? Browser's main problem is always going to be very limited accessible memory, and with regards to apps what do we care how is h.264 stream called? I cant imagine HTML5 being more efficient than C or whatever is used on PS3.
 

androvsky

Member
yeah but why exactly do we care about HTML5 again on PS3? Browser's main problem is always going to be very limited accessible memory, and with regards to apps what do we care how is h.264 stream called? I cant imagine HTML5 being more efficient than C or whatever is used on PS3.
The main reason for most people is simply video streaming. I think it's also the reason why many people feel the last browser upgrade didn't change much; it was a huge upgrade, but the flash plugin remains the same so streaming video quality hasn't improved. It can barely handle SD resolution video.

If Sony supports HTML5 video tags in the current browser, it'll be hailed as a minor miracle even if it's the only thing that's different, since it should be able to handle 1080p streaming video with ease. There's plenty of websites that either aren't covered by apps (Youtube, mysteriously enough), or probably never will be covered by an app (various live-streaming and porn sites) that would benefit greatly.
 
The main reason for most people is simply video streaming. I think it's also the reason why many people feel the last browser upgrade didn't change much; it was a huge upgrade, but the flash plugin remains the same so streaming video quality hasn't improved. It can barely handle SD resolution video.

If Sony supports HTML5 video tags in the current browser, it'll be hailed as a minor miracle even if it's the only thing that's different, since it should be able to handle 1080p streaming video with ease. There's plenty of websites that either aren't covered by apps (Youtube, mysteriously enough), or probably never will be covered by an app (various live-streaming and porn sites) that would benefit greatly.

WebGL and smooth animation now available for GTKwebkit2 API. Full browser support (Stable release) by Sept. We already have cites that confirm Playready DRM and HAL (DASH HTTP h.264 streaming) will be in place this year, probably in Sept which means HTML5 <video> too; major changes to PSN start then.
 
I crave for that simpler time.

Sprite artwork is still my favorite style, so I can never understand the constant fighting over specs.

Yes some games really benefit from sprites and today we have more than enough power to display such games. A few years ago you would have had the same discussion about the NES/SNES, GB/GBA and their sprite eg. "GPU" qualities.

Now depending on the game there are various methods and forms of art that simply still need more "power" to be "perfected". Furthermore a game does not only consist of graphics - there is AI, control methods, OS, sound, etc.

I do not fight over specs but I try to guess the next possible system because I am interested and curious what will happen next. As long as it helps the immersion and pushes technological boundries I do want more and better tech.
 
RSX wasn't faster (both are 500Mhz) and the bigger bottleneck with the GPU was vertex load, which is where the Cell helped with IIRC.

Yea thats true but I believe RSX did have more raw power than Xenos(wasnt the clock speed), but like you said was just much less efficient with that power and was bottlenecked by vertex load.
 

missile

Member
I crave for that simpler time.
Was wonderful. Those earlier system do have a special touch to them. You
won't believe it, but I currently program a game for the RCA Cosmac VIP
computer, a computer from the '70, using 1802 and CHIP-8 assembly language.
CHIP-8 features a very primitive sprite engine. Just the raw basics, an xor
blit and collision detection.

Sprite artwork is still my favorite style, so I can never understand the constant fighting over specs.
Indeed. It's quite amazing how efficient one can become by restricting
him/her to a small sprite. Most of the best games were produces that way.
 
Seeing how much butt ARM and PowerVR are kicking and how cheap they are.

A part of me wants a $199-299 Andriod based PS3 packing a 16 core cortex a15 cpu, 4gbs of fast ram, and 6th generation 16 core PowerVR gpu. Oh and yeah XBMC support!

With a set up like that, Sony could drop the price down to $99 by 2014-2015.

The Vita would be the perfect controller for it.
 
Seeing how much butt ARM and PowerVR are kicking and how cheap they are.

A part of me wants a $199-299 Andriod based PS3 packing a 16 core cortex a15 cpu, 4gbs of fast ram, and 6th generation 16 core PowerVR gpu. Oh and yeah XBMC support!

With a set up like that, Sony could drop the price down to $99 by 2014-2015.

The Vita would be the perfect controller for it.

PS3 definetly needs a smartphone cpu/gpu.
 

TheD

The Detective
...cell has very low heat output.



The SPE's can reach 98% theoretical performance using parallel matrix multiplication.

http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/power/library/pa-cellperf/

That is just linpack, tons more to CPU performance than FLOPS.

e.g.
The 360 CPU is based on 3 PPEs and is rated at 115GFLOPS but the fact is that it can only run an average of 0.2 instructions per cycle per a core, a single core P4 @ 3.2Ghz only gets around 5GFLOPS but it averages around 0.4 IPC!, what that means is that it can process 2x as many instructions as a single 360 core (at the same clockspeed).

An other example is that a Sandy bridge CPU at 3.2Ghz is fast enough with a single core to do all the work that the 3 core 6 thread 360 CPU can do at the same speed bar the fact that the SB CPU core only has about 20GFLOPS (with AVX) and 10GFLOPS without (vs 115).

BTW This info comes straight from some devs on B3D!
 

tinfoilhatman

all of my posts are my avatar
Just want to add this for those interessted;
http://tu-dresden.de/die_tu_dresden...alyse_von_hochleistungsrechnern/cell//matmul/



Back in the days programming was just like on Cell all the way down with all
the DMA stuff and custom chips. If one is used to only Intel's architecture
then his/her programming model is manly based on multi-threading and a
shared memory model, which is easier to program with but not as efficient if
the problem scales and esp. not if system resources are at a prime. Serious
parallel programming, the main issue today and for the foreseeable future,
can't be solved with Intel's (indoctrinated) multi-threading model. The
entire company is built around it, their microprocessor, compilers,
optimizers, etc. However, this model doesn't scale. Serious parallel
programming always starts with the data. One needs to be in control of the
data, i.e. of the movement of the data through the system. And the movement
of the data is heavily problem/algorithm dependent and can't be left alone
by letting the system guess which data is supposed to be required next, as
is the case in a coherent shared cache memory system which Intel relies on.
The performance of many old computers/consoles, like for example the Amiga
500, PS2 etc, weren't possible if they had a uniform system architecture
similar to today's PC. The uniformity eases the programming model and that's
about it. If system performance is of utmost importance, a non-uniform model
is used. If its not, a uniform is used. Consoles are usually all non-uniform
in their architecture for a bunch if good reasons. But some of them will
converge to a uniform system if performance is not of primary concern. And
this is to be expected since many games (perhaps targeted at a specific
audience) simply don't need that much performance to run, to transmit the
story, gameplay whatsoever.



This is just what I've described above. A hardware sprite system was
essentially build to release the CPU from blitting primitive graphics onto
the screen. It was the perfect solution to assemble a processor just for
this purpose, to blit sprites on the screen, i. e. to overlay the video
signal with sprite data, and do collision detection among them etc. But
since sprites are a very small problem esp. from today's perspective, and
since bandwidth and system clocks have increased a multifold on state of the
art microprocessor, they can be entirely programmed in software. Well, you
can use an entire SPE just as a sprite engine. Anyhow, as I've written above,
there are system where performance is at a prime and as such they can't
waste system resources - even today. So for example, the gameduino board has
a hardware sprite engine; http://excamera.com/sphinx/gameduino/.
There you go. :)


How is any of this or going to help reduce development costs and decrease project timeline? In the field I work in the reason were ahead of the competition is because we have a very user friendly development environment so it's easy to add functionality and we scale horizontally(to make up for the 1 to 1 server performance) Game need tools and abstraction layers to make game development easier not more complex and more expensive(time and money) to create.
 

CorrisD

badchoiceboobies
has the possibility of ps3 running with android been discussed here yet? i feel like it's a sure thing

The question at this point would be, why? I'm not sure what advantage it would have at this point before we enter a new generation, the PS3 doesn't exactly have the memory for more things to be running at the same time as the OS and other things at the moment.
 

onQ123

Member
has the possibility of ps3 running with android been discussed here yet? i feel like it's a sure thing


yep (& I'm guessing you meant PS4)

_________________________________________

I know this is way out there, but what if Google is helping with the PS4 R&D just to insure that Microsoft don't take over the TV.

even MS expects PS4 to be a Google TV box,

if you're Google you would want the PS4 in as many homes as possible & at a good price because you don't want AppleTV & whatever MS has planed to be the standard for internet TV.


________________________________


I think people have forgotten that Sony is a Hardware company who 1st got into the Video Game Business as a way to push their CD drive / hardware into more homes & if it came down to it they would make the hardware for the Xbox Next.

I wouldn't even be surprised if there is a Sony camera in the Kinect 2.


so a PS4 with Google TV or even Android isn't out of the question.


__________________________________________________



I know I would love for the PS4 to come with this remote so I'm hoping for GoogleTV.

Sony-NSZ-GS7-Google-TV-Internet-Player-remote-control.jpg
 
How is any of this or going to help reduce development costs and decrease project timeline? In the field I work in the reason were ahead of the competition is because we have a very user friendly development environment so it's easy to add functionality and we scale horizontally(to make up for the 1 to 1 server performance) Game need tools and abstraction layers to make game development easier not more complex and more expensive(time and money) to create.

What? He just explained it. He's saying that the next consoles are conforming to a more easy PC like model opposed to the past ways. Nobody said anything about more complex more expensive....
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
tinfoilhatman said:
How is any of this or going to help reduce development costs and decrease project timeline?

There's no way that any choice of CPU is going to reduce costs or shorten project timelines in any case. Dream on, game dev doesn't work like that. The biggest culprits for projects overrunning are always management flip-flopping on direction and the like.

You want high-end, expect to spend a lot of man-hours achieving it. There are no shortcuts.
 

onQ123

Member
If Sony packages a remote than Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft really want to push TV next gen, seeing how the Wii U Gamepad can be a remote and Microsoft how they are focusing on getting a lot of services.

because they want to be connected at all times because the more they know about you the more money they can get from ads & the more things they can sell you.
 

AgentP

Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
has the possibility of ps3 running with android been discussed here yet? i feel like it's a sure thing

What would be the point? You would not be able to run any Android apps. Android is just a light version of Linux and the PS3 is probably based on FreeBSD, so they are cousins.
 
That is just linpack, tons more to CPU performance than FLOPS.

e.g.
The 360 CPU is based on 3 PPEs and is rated at 115GFLOPS but the fact is that it can only run an average of 0.2 instructions per cycle per a core, a single core P4 @ 3.2Ghz only gets around 5GFLOPS but it averages around 0.4 IPC!, what that means is that it can process 2x as many instructions as a single 360 core (at the same clockspeed).

An other example is that a Sandy bridge CPU at 3.2Ghz is fast enough with a single core to do all the work that the 3 core 6 thread 360 CPU can do at the same speed bar the fact that the SB CPU core only has about 20GFLOPS (with AVX) and 10GFLOPS without (vs 115).

BTW This info comes straight from some devs on B3D!

Well sandy bridge is designed alot differently than the PPE. You can't really compare them on flops.
 

tinfoilhatman

all of my posts are my avatar
There's no way that any choice of CPU is going to reduce costs or shorten project timelines in any case. Dream on, game dev doesn't work like that. The biggest culprits for projects overrunning are always management flip-flopping on direction and the like.

You want high-end, expect to spend a lot of man-hours achieving it. There are no shortcuts.

So Cell had nothing to do with increased devl costs and decreased performance for many PS3 multi-platform games?


Weird from what I understand it's far easier\faster to develop for say an multi-core x86 CPU with OOO processing(or even the Xbox IBM multi-core) than anything exotic like cell where parallel processing is not an option but a requirement.

So forgetting about performance programming for processors that have to process data in parallel(and in order) is just as easy as conventional development? I'm not a developer(I work closely with them and QA teams) but that goes against everything I've ever heard
 
What would be the point? You would not be able to run any Android apps. Android is just a light version of Linux and the PS3 is probably based on FreeBSD, so they are cousins.
The point would be all the Android apps. Android is like Java, only the engine and native libraries have to be ported. The Apps then run unchanged.

My opinion is that Sony wants to use libraries and code that use the PS3s power and don't waste it as they still have big things planned on the PS3 for Augmented Reality, WebGL, HTML5 apps and more. Android uses older weaker native libraries and applications can't run native. With WebCL Javascript applications can have almost native performance.

Recently Android and Chrome now have support for more native code to increase performance. So Android and Chrome are being forced to do this to support more demanding applications like AR and Games. PS Suite for instance comes with native libraries for physics and Game engines that are called and run by PS Suite on Android platforms.

Android could be ported to the PS3 and PS Suite could then be ported and run on the PS3. Memory is not an issue but branch prediction is, lack of JIT can be made up with pre-compiled tables..takes slightly more memory and adds a slight performance hit but the PS3 is many times faster than Android platforms and has a hard disk. Android applications are generally less than 90 megs and are meant to be always loaded so they share the 1 gig space in Android handheld RAM.

Soon Javascript with WebCL is going to be a cross platform standard with more power than Android. There will EVENTUALLY be more apps than Android or iOS and they won't be limited by a platform. Any language written with WebCL can benefit from and support distributed processing. OpenCL and the open Source Fusion HSA foundation initiatives need to be understood.
 
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