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PS4 Rumors , APU code named 'Liverpool' Radeon HD 7970 GPU Steamroller CPU 16GB Flash
- Thread starter onQ123
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Ppl still believe wiiu will be on par with true next gen in ps4&nextbox?
most of devs t saying that it isnt even on par with current gen, few said it was (nest case scrario).
Ignorance is bliss, but being stupid isnt, sorry. Next gen will be like current gen. Wiiu will get some sort of bad versions of some big ips, just like wii. Wiiu will once again be a platform to play big nintendo titles and thats it.
most of devs t saying that it isnt even on par with current gen, few said it was (nest case scrario).
Ignorance is bliss, but being stupid isnt, sorry. Next gen will be like current gen. Wiiu will get some sort of bad versions of some big ips, just like wii. Wiiu will once again be a platform to play big nintendo titles and thats it.
BruiserBear
Banned
Yes, unfortunately.
lwilliams3
Member
I think the PS2/GCN/XBOX comparison is more about the visual difference between multiplatform games than actual benchmarks. Even if you go technical, the massive artitecture differences between the Wii and the Xbox360/PS3 makes it a bad comparison to whatever the Wii U will end up ranking between the other next-gen systems.
GoofsterStud
Member
Wow if they advertise the PS3 as a $99 game system, blu-ray player, dvd-upscaler, internet tv device (hulu, netflix, etc).
If they advertise it as a multimedia device at that price even my mom would probably get one, so she can have one device. lol
If they advertise it just as a PS3, it wouldn't do as well. 360, meh....
bgassassin
Member
What's probably the case is that the CPU doesn't contain architecture comparable to SPEs or VMX128. Not including whatever they may have clocked it at.
No.
JohnnySasaki86
Member
But define "on par"
IMO an argument could be made that PS2/GC/Xbox were more or less "on par" with each other. If people think Wii U will be PS2 and PS4 is GC/Xbox they more or less will be on par, and to the average gamer it will be very much on par. You could even almost go as far to say Vita is "on par" with PS3. If you compare Uncharted GA to Uncharted DF. Is Wii U and PS4 gonna be the same level of difference? I seriously doubt it will be anywhere near that.
I think it's true but it won't really matter too much once devs start using the GPGPU to take the work off the CPU so ports from the PS3 & Xbox 360 might start off slow but once they start taking advantage of the Wii U it should shine about the PS3 & Xbox 360.
on 2nd thought the Cell still has tricks up it's sleeve just like a GPGPU so I guess we will have to wait & see about that one. but I think the Wii U will still put out some amazing games even if the CPU ins't as powerful as The Cell because the GPGPU will make up for it.
With the hardware they have and the shrinks that are not available to them, the current hd consoles will likely never hit $99 short of clearance sales years from now.
Cite sources for "most devs" please, because without those sources the rest of your post is dreck.
Silent_Ocarina
Member
Most? Do you mean those anonymous sources? We have developers saying that it's more powerful than current generation consoles.
Wii had the disadvantage of lacking proper architecture to run ports of Xbox 360 games and PlayStation 4 games. Wii U won't have that disadvantage. I'm not saying Wii U will have the same raw capabilities as the next generation consoles, but the gap between the consoles won't be as large as it was this generation.
Also, Wii U is as "next generation" as the other next generation consoles.
JohnnySasaki86
Member
I understand the argument that it cant be like Wii was to PS3/360 cause Wii had no programmable shaders, and that the technical differences in the architecture from 2012/2013 PS4 tech vs 2010 architecture in the Wii U will have no disparity of this magnitude, where the same game engine cant fundamentally exist because of it. Though isnt over 2 years still "forever" in the technical world? There will still be some differences, there has to be. GPGPU? What does this allow?
Also doesn't something like the ipad2 or even the new ipad have programmable shaders(i know the vita does, same gpu)? Does that mean it could run a lower spec version of a future PS4 game(it sounds like a ridiculous thought to me)? Isnt there a point where even if something is architecturally similar "enough" and the graphical features are similar "enough" that with enough difference in "raw power" an enigne will not be able to be scaled down enough to work between those two pieces of hardware? such as PS4 to Vita as an example.
Glorified G
Member
The Wii problem was third parties thinking where wasn't much of an audience to sell their games. If developers really wanted to, they wouldn't use the modern feature set found in the hd twins, stuck with SD development & have games across all three systems. I think power/feature set wasn't much of a problem to begin with.
bgassassin
Member
When I think on par, if PS4 has a 1.8 TFLOP GPU for example, then Wii U's GPU would need to be over 1 TFLOP and probably around 1.4 at least.
If the definition of on par is as wide at the context of your post then Wii U would be on par. All the consoles are going to have GPUs based on unified shaders. This isn't like this gen where PS360 had moved on to programmable shaders and Wii was still using TEV.
The exploding budgets show they wouldn't have really wanted to because they wanted to achieve a certain level of visuals with their titles. If Wii had at least been a "360 lite" there would have been a lot more ports.
Kleegamefan
K. LEE GAIDEN
Well, if the NextBox and PS4 actually turn out to be comparable to the WiiU, I would take that to mean they are also comparable to a PS360, by extension. I find that to be an unlikely scenario, but if it does come true, what would be the point of migrating to a ps420?
PS360 would be cheap, readily available, have tons of games and similar graphics.
Sony and Microsoft are well aware they need the hardcore gamers to be fully onboard for the first 5M or so NextBoxen/PS4. These are the people who will springboard these Multi-Billion dollar platform(s) and I doubt these hard core gamers would evangelize any next gen console to the less informed joe six pack masses unless it was a full generational leap.......especially after 7+ years.
Not with similar graphics to a WiiU and not with similar graphics to a PS360. Therfore, I do expect a full generational leap and you will see a similar story from this generation.......those looking for Nintendo games will get a WiiU.....those looking for high-end 3rd party games will get PS4/NextBox and those who want it all and have the means will get it all
PS360 would be cheap, readily available, have tons of games and similar graphics.
Sony and Microsoft are well aware they need the hardcore gamers to be fully onboard for the first 5M or so NextBoxen/PS4. These are the people who will springboard these Multi-Billion dollar platform(s) and I doubt these hard core gamers would evangelize any next gen console to the less informed joe six pack masses unless it was a full generational leap.......especially after 7+ years.
Not with similar graphics to a WiiU and not with similar graphics to a PS360. Therfore, I do expect a full generational leap and you will see a similar story from this generation.......those looking for Nintendo games will get a WiiU.....those looking for high-end 3rd party games will get PS4/NextBox and those who want it all and have the means will get it all
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Yeah, design practices barely changed between DX7 and 9.
*laughs*
edit: Honestly man that was so disingenuous and you know it.
No one knew the Wii would sell like it did. If they knew there probably would have been a lot of up ports to the PS3/360. But no way in hell can an engine made for the PS3/360 run without a fuckton of changes on Wii. Wii doesn't even contain the logic necessary for Dot3 precision man.
WiiU is in an entirely different ballgame if only because it has at least a featureset comparable to DX10.1.
Silent_Ocarina
Member
There will definitely be some differences. I will not attempt to compare other devices to consoles because I am not as tech-savvy as I would like to be. However, as you said, the difference in power will be much less than it was this generation. Also, I believe Unreal Engine 3 was ported to iOS devices. That doesn't make them as powerful as current generation consoles. I think.
Yes, it was a problem. Why wouldn't developers take advantage of the twins' more modern capabilities? Improved graphics was a big selling point for the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3. The gap in power was far too large for developers to settle for the weakest feature set.
JohnnySasaki86
Member
My definition of on par is what the average gamer will see and think. Im sure most average people would think Vita and PS3 are on par. Based on what a lot of you guys are saying on here, by this definition they will be very much on par.
I think the difference between PS4 and Wii U will be big enough that an average person walking by will be able to tell from the games theres a significant difference in graphical fidelity and features, while not being same night and day difference as Wii to 360/PS3. You could not do this with the ps2/gc/xbox gen. Unless you compared Halo CE to Spongebob square pants.
shinra-bansho
Member
I'm not sure I agree with the implication, if it's being made, that developers desired better visuals purely for the sake of better visuals as opposed to it being driven in part with what the market dictated.
Would people have bought TES:Oblivion on the Wii with it's degree of visual fidelity in 2006? Or Skyrim in 2011?
Notwithstanding, physics, AI etc. and all of this:
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Or Splinter Cell to Splinter Cell.
Kleegamefan
K. LEE GAIDEN
A great point and an astute observation!
I guess the current story is.......WiiU, PS4 and NextBox all have DX 11-level GPUs, therefore the games will look the same!
I am not quite sure I buy that sales pitch just yet, though.....
Don't forget little things like modern online systems with friends lists, achievements, and more secure systems with notably less piracy and the ability to sell DLC right off the bat. Oh, and patches. And all those modern features that publishers drool over came out in a system a year before the Wii was released. It's not just GPU features that held third-party support of the Wii back.
JohnnySasaki86
Member
Yes this is one of the points im trying to make. Just cause something features programmable shaders and can run UE3 doesnt mean it can run Gears of War 3. I would think at some point the "raw power" difference will stop games from being downported even if the architecture is much more similar with Wii U than it was with Wii. Maybe I'm wrong, and someone can give me a technical explanation as to why. (note: when i say raw power im referring to a lot of things that encompass the capabilities of a console such as FLOPs, architecture, memory amount, bandwidth, fillrate, ect. a lot of which i admit Im not tech savvy enough to understand.)
Me either, but some seem to be implying this lol
^This
Debatable if the average game saw or thought there was significant differences. They were at least "comparable." I admit good example though.
bgassassin
Member
Really?
Beaten by Thunder Monkey before even posting.
Heck even RE4 on GC had clear visual advantages.
That implication is being made and I agree that in part the market dictated better visuals, but only in part in that it was not to the point where it caused the budgets to inflate like they did.
That is true too.
JohnnySasaki86
Member
I didnt say they didnt. Theres clear visual differences between the PS3 and 360 versions of Ghostbusters too, and making the point while there are clear differences to us while watching a back and forth comparison video to the average person there comparable and close enough. I even admit that the first time I played RE4 on PS2 I didnt notice a lot of the differences and was pretty surprised when I saw all the screenshot comparisons on gaf(wow that was long ago.) I think the differences between Wii U and the next gen consoles will be quite a bit bigger than the differences shown in the Splinter Cell video and RE video, and by this definition the average person would not be able to say there close enough or comparable.
shinra-bansho
Member
While I agree that budgets have grown - perhaps inordinately in some cases - I am rather curious how often a budget is excessive purely due to a drive for better visual fidelity and not due to mismanagement of time and resources in general.
Game development budget figures are difficult to come by of course.
I suppose an example to cite is Killzone 2 - which was essentially Sony trying to prove a point.
But then Naughty Dog made two Uncharteds on a similar total development budget.
There's Gran Turismo - but I'd chalk that up to horrible management coupled with striving for better visuals.
LA Noire? Big budget - but I imagine part mocap costs and part horrible management leading to development hell.
I'm somewhat curious about what the equivalent AAA game costs on the Wii - for example something like Super Mario Galaxy or The Last Story.
----
NB I'm separating out the ridiculous inflation of marketing budgets. Although a case can be made that these budgets aren't necessarily inordinate, considering they're often necessary for a game to sell.
Silent_Ocarina
Member
I don't think anyone is saying that all next generation titles will look the same across all three consoles. I believe that Wii U will be capable of receiving ports from the other two consoles. Perhaps some textures and other features have to be sacrificed, but unlike this generation, Wii U won't need a B team to make a completely different game for it.
It's obvious that Wii U will be the weakest, but if ports are possible, that's already a vast improvement.
It's obvious that Wii U will be the weakest, but if ports are possible, that's already a vast improvement.
bgassassin
Member
You just said "You could not do this with the ps2/gc/xbox gen." So what am I interpreting wrong?
I don't and the hardware known so far says that it won't.
But can we separate mismanagement from that when the goal was the same? Would the budgets have still been that way if they weren't pursuing high-level visuals even with poor financial management? And just in case I do agree and those are serious questions.
As a hsrdcore Pc gamer, people that still bash wiiu for the graphic department is kinda dumb. Its been a while since I saw a pc game that blows out of the water the console counter part. I dont spec cgi level graphics next gen yet just because of Economial reason. So no square enix demo graphics yet. So before we get there, the difference is gonna be like the ps2gcxbox era IMHO
JohnnySasaki86
Member
Honestly if thats all the differences were gonna get I think a lot of people are going to be really disappointed. Im one of the people that think while ZombieU looks great but its arguably very comparable to PS3/360 games and maybe not as good as some(UC3, GoW3, GeoW3, ect). I agree WiiU games will continue to get better, but seriously using ZombieU as a basis how much? It better be huge massive leap, cause I dont want PS4 games to look like a PC version of ZombieU. I dont think Sony does either cause it wont sell cause people wont move on from PS3 like Kleegamefan said.
Hence one of the main reasons I dont think PS4 is coming tell 2014. Sony themselves said they dont want to release a nextgen console tell they can show that generation leap. They've also told there shareholders there in no ruch to release a nextgen console. I especially dont want them to if what your saying about what these rumored specs are capable of is true.
bgassassin
Member
But that's an assessment based on launch title that started as a PS360 game. One thing you won't see me do is use ZombiU as a basis. Between the two things I just mentioned and a shift in game play after E3 2011, I'm glad it's at the point of where it is now.
Diverting this back on topic, just how far are you expecting next gen, and in this case PS4, to go with what they are targeting? And ignoring the target, how far would you have liked to see Sony go?
shinra-bansho
Member
Presumably every situation is different I imagine; different genres, gameplay mechanics, artstyles.
Something like FFXIII's horrible development cycle is probably a chicken-egg scenario with them pushing visuals.
But something like Uncharted 2 shows you can ship a game on budget and time with superb overall quality.
Can a producer set out with an intended two year development cycle, with a $20M budget for a AAA title and achieve that? I think so.
Although your mileage may vary as to whether a $20M budget is considered reasonable for a modern AAA game.
JohnnySasaki86
Member
What do you mean see how far they go? go where? how many years on the market? Or specs wise?
oh and ZombieU is arguably the best looking exclusive Wii U title thus far, so if not that then what do we have to use as a basis? Just cause it started as a PS360 title doesnt mean that they shouldnt be taking advantage of Wii U as much as they can now as it is exclusive to Wii U. Unless the Wii U isnt what we think it is.
LMAO i knew this post was coming
phosphor112
Banned
I came to see rumors on the PS4. I left reading meaningless debates of technology gaps between consoles that aren't even finalized.
smh
smh
JohnnySasaki86
Member
this is what happens when theres months without any new news/rumors. Really the whole point of the rumors is to further speculate what the consoles will capable of in the future, I guess comparing it to past console cycles help gauge this, even if it just leads to disappointment.
Hard for me to say cause I feel like I dont have a good enough technical grasp of technical architectures of these new and upcoming gpus. What will GPGPU and HSA allow for instance? I dont even really know what it is besides the fact it supposed ot make it much more efficient. Im sure theres more to it than that.
But I guess I expect them to have about a $500-$550 budget on the console, and hoping they go as far as custom built 2-2.5GFLOPs GPU, with at least 4gb stacked memory, and the newest most recent custom architecture they can get in the thing for that price. CPU wise I dont know what to expect. I dont even know how Sandy bridge/ivy bridge tech compares to something like Xenon or Cell for example. Sometimes it sounds like there taking 2 steps forward and 1 step backwards with the CPU vs whats in the PS3. Based on what people are saying this only seems possible if they release in 2014.
edit: I feel like the most important thing I expect is a generation difference from PS3, or 7+ years of difference, that I clearly dont see with the Wii U, that to me seems like a half jump if that. So I hope the specs of Wii U are lower than what some think, or the games shown so far are not even half of what the system is capable of(which doesnt make much sense to me looking at past launch titles, Resistance for ex was a good indication of what PS3 was capable of). Cause if its nether and Wii U is an indication of what to expect from "next gen" then I think disappointment would be an understatement. Why would there be any reason to jump from ps3, especially when we got games like The Last of Us coming?
Thats like saying tell we got Uncharted 1/2 and Killzone 2 we didnt have a basis for PS3. We all know launch titles get eclipsed as the developers get more familar with the hardware. We saw this with GOW2 and many other games on PS2, and are seeing it now with UC3, Beyond, and The Last of US on PS3. The launch titles are a still clear starting point where gradual increase starts from. Resistance is good example of this with PS3. Why is ZombieU not Wii U's Resistance? Resistance was still leaps and bounds better looking than PS2 games, or even Halo. While ZombieU is very similar to PS360 games. You cant deny thats worrisome if were considering WiiU a next gen console.
bgassassin
Member
Yeah the beginning of this gen compared to now has changed what it takes to achieve what would be considered a AAA title. And while my previous posts suggested that I put everything on visuals, I want to clarify that I believe it was the primary, not sole, motivator for the increase. And I don't recall anything off the top of my head saying this wasn't the case.
Sorry. Spec-wise.
Oh I'm not saying it's one of the best looking so far. I'm saying it's not a basis. The first game that's truly built from the ground up for Wii U that pushes for visuals should be the basis.
We (I) talked about the other consoles in the Wii U thread.
BruiserBear
Banned
Kung Fu Grip
Banned
I've been saying this all along. They might as well upgrade their current hardware with more features if it's going to be like that.
There has to be a graphic leap. Don't underestimate the masses. People are still using DVD's because they see no difference with bluray. As sad as that is (the difference is way obvious to me). Why by something new when what i have looks the same?
With some visual downgrades, and only during cutscenes yes. In 720p/30, likely, considering the hardware targets.
8th generation
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_video_game_consoles_(eighth_generation)
Apophis2036
Banned
Don't judge Wii U by Nintendo Land, NSMB U (mass appeal, casual franchises to get as many consoles sold as possible at launch), projects that started life on the Wii (Pikmin 3) or even ports of PS360 games.
Judge the system when you see a big name Nintendo franchise (EAD Mario, Metroid, Zelda, Starfox, F Zero ect), built from the ground up to take advantage of it's hardware.
They are keeping the big guns under wraps until E3 2013 for a reason.
Wii U's GPU is rumoured to be 500 - 600 gigaFLOPs, 720 / PS4 - 1.5 - 1.8 teraFLOPs, they will be around three times as powerful, not the ten plus times as powerful that PS360 were to the original Wii.
Bottom line -
Wii U will be able to run 'scaled down' versions of PS4 / 720 multi platform games, whether the third party developers will even bother is another issue entirely.
Judge the system when you see a big name Nintendo franchise (EAD Mario, Metroid, Zelda, Starfox, F Zero ect), built from the ground up to take advantage of it's hardware.
They are keeping the big guns under wraps until E3 2013 for a reason.
Wii U's GPU is rumoured to be 500 - 600 gigaFLOPs, 720 / PS4 - 1.5 - 1.8 teraFLOPs, they will be around three times as powerful, not the ten plus times as powerful that PS360 were to the original Wii.
Bottom line -
Wii U will be able to run 'scaled down' versions of PS4 / 720 multi platform games, whether the third party developers will even bother is another issue entirely.
since this is the Wii U thread for now I have to ask,
who wouldn't be satisfied with a Mario Kart game with GT5 level graphics / Mario game with Uncharted 3 level graphics / Metroid with Crysis 2 level graphics?
because all that should be achievable with the Wii U specs so I don't see a big problem.
who wouldn't be satisfied with a Mario Kart game with GT5 level graphics / Mario game with Uncharted 3 level graphics / Metroid with Crysis 2 level graphics?
because all that should be achievable with the Wii U specs so I don't see a big problem.
That's a poor example to prove your point IMO. RE4 for PS2 was significantly downgraded, textures, polygon counts were all noticeably reduced and lighting was basically removed.
Well at a certain point a link in any chain has to be considered not close to a link that its connected to by extension. When that occurs comes down to you're definition of close, or in this case comparable. For instance if WiiU is 3x XBox 360 you could argue they're still comparable. If XBox3 is 3x WiiU you could also argue they're comparable. But that then puts XBox3 as 9x XBox 360, I don't think many would consider 9x comparable (I realise the whole x argument isn't a great way to judge systems so don't take this literally, its just an example).
lunchwithyuzo
Banned
I still like my TG16/MD/SNES to WiiU/PS4/XB3 comparison. Even gets the "weak last gen" CPU part down.
Resistance wasn't rooted in PS2 dev though, it was a ground up PS3 project and launched a year after we'd had HD games on the market in general. A better comparison would be something like Kameo and Perfect Dark Zero on 360, among the first next gen titles on any platform and also games that had significant R&D done on previous gen machines. Actually how well of a baseline did they (and other launch fare like DOA4, RR6, PGR3, COD2, etc) give for Xbox 360 capability? Remember Xbox 1.5?
bgassassin
Member
Haha. The first two I want to pursue a "Pixar-level" style.
A reduced version of AMD's Leo demo is another good example. Which I'm sure you'll like this demo (if you haven't seen it) because the lighting is done through the GPU's compute functions.
Metroid can go in that direction though.
Apophis2036
Banned
You're completely missing the point of Nintendo, i have actually thought 'what if' the Wii U was the same power level as PS4 / 720 and to be honest i don't see the point.
Their main franchises are all cartoony looking, sure they might be able to get a Mario game running something akin to a low budget Pixar movie but at the end of the day and after spending over $100 million and years developing it, what's the point ?.
It's still the same charming fat plumber jumping on blocks.
Gran Turismo, Crysis and Uncharted all suite realistic graphical style, Mario, Mario Kart and Zelda do not imo.
Saying that i still think people will be floored when they see Mario EAD, Zelda, Metroid and whatever Retro are working on pushing Wii U to it's limits.
Nintendo got Mario Galaxy, Skyward Sword and Metroid Prime 3 running fantastic on a 12 FLOP GPU, imagine what they can do with a 500+ FLOP GPU.
Anyway on topic, im really looking forward to PS4, will be my main system next gen, hope to hear something official from Sony early next year after MS show off the 720.
nordique
Member
How the hell did this PS4 thread turn into a Wii U thread???
haha come on guys...I want to come into a thread titled "PS4 rumours" to talk about PS4! Not Wii U! There's another thread for that stuff.
Regarding the power gap, bgassassin knows what he's talking about. He has a very solid (and very realistic) idea about the specs, for both the PS4 and Wii U, so if he thinks Wii U could be able to get PS4 downports without too much hassle, I would be inclined to believe him on that.
If that will happen, is another story all together and depends more on the publishers, not specs (Gamecube was strong enough to get certain titles which it never got, for example)
Further, bg has never once played up the Wii U to be some super duper powerful robocop machine, but he does point out where people who are MISinformed or UNinformed are wrong. Same goes with PS4. He was one of the first people I remember who made point of the PS4 being roughly 10x more powerful than PS3. That's a fair bump.
And can we go back to PS4 now?
I have a question - how is the CPU looking so far? Still Steamroller or has that changed?
and a 1.8 TFLOP GPU is insane. That is way, way more powerful than the PS3's RSX...
haha come on guys...I want to come into a thread titled "PS4 rumours" to talk about PS4! Not Wii U! There's another thread for that stuff.
Regarding the power gap, bgassassin knows what he's talking about. He has a very solid (and very realistic) idea about the specs, for both the PS4 and Wii U, so if he thinks Wii U could be able to get PS4 downports without too much hassle, I would be inclined to believe him on that.
If that will happen, is another story all together and depends more on the publishers, not specs (Gamecube was strong enough to get certain titles which it never got, for example)
Further, bg has never once played up the Wii U to be some super duper powerful robocop machine, but he does point out where people who are MISinformed or UNinformed are wrong. Same goes with PS4. He was one of the first people I remember who made point of the PS4 being roughly 10x more powerful than PS3. That's a fair bump.
And can we go back to PS4 now?
I have a question - how is the CPU looking so far? Still Steamroller or has that changed?
and a 1.8 TFLOP GPU is insane. That is way, way more powerful than the PS3's RSX...
Apophis2036
Banned
If they can get games running on PS3 that look like MGS 4, God of War 3, Heavy Rain, GT 5, Uncharted 3, Beyond, Last of Us and Last Guardian then it is going to be truly frighting what we can expect on a machine that is 8-10 times more powerful.
I have a question of my own, why are Sony dumping the Cell after spending so much time and money on it ?, wouldn't boosting the clocks of the CPU and adding in the 2 - 4GB's of Ram along with the 1.8 tFLOP GPU to it not make it just as powerful rather than starting again with an AMD CPU ?.
Third parties are pretty much used to developing for it now and it would also ensure PS3 backward compatibility.
Maybe because AMD has a SOC design that will make it cheaper & easier for them to add other chips to the SOC & they will work together with the CPU & GPU.
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