Yeah, I edited my post above while I was going through old bookmarks, take a look.
yeah I seen that it had changed by time I hit the submit reply button.
Yeah, I edited my post above while I was going through old bookmarks, take a look.
::clears throat:: ahem... PSWii60.
No but its very probable that it'll be something similar to that 8850 2.5tflop GPU. Which is a lot more efficient than a 2.5tflop 7xxx gpu. If a delay to 2014 is needed to secure a gpu similar to this in order to be profitable its definitely worth it. Also 2014 is also probably necessary to make stacked memory possible.
$500 BOM with a $400 price tag is very possible. A $100 loss to start, with the console being profitable after 1-2 years is a huge improvement over the $300 loss with PS3, which took 3-4 yrs to turn profitable.
I could see GT 4K on PS4 but it won't natively running at 4K .
I mean GT5 had 1080p but it was not full 1080p , i just hope that PD does a great 1080p version and just up res it to 4k \ 3D while losing effects , car count etc etc .
GT is one of the few games i think that going to natively run in 1080p next gen .
A $500 BOM console with a $400 price tag is a loss much closer to $300 than $100 or do you think retailers sell them out of the goodness of their hearts?
Pretty much. Retailers don't really get a cut of the sales of the console. They make money on the game sales. That's one of the issues with an all digital download future, if retailers don't make money on game sales, then they won't stock the consoles unless they make money on them.
I'd like to respond to GoFreak's post from the locked thread regarding cloud gaming.. how plausible would it be to be able to to insert a PS3 game in a PS4 > cloud recognizes legit PS3 game in local hardware > transfers you to the version of the game you want to play, through cloud service, free of charge since you own a legit copy? That way, they don't really need compatible hardware for BC.
Where did this notion that more powerful HW automatically equals higher dev costs come from?
The idea is perfectly possible, it is along the same lines as how some are expecting retail PS3 to Vita CrossBuy games to work.
The problem will be emulation on their side, it isn't practical to have a PS3 for every consumer running the game, if they can't emulate a PS3 on next gen hardware that will be expensive to sell to consumers I doubt they will want to spend the money on the sort of servers they would need to stream PS3 games and how would they get money back from it?
This gen did have big increase in costs to develop with the common use of normal maps. Next gen won't have the same kind of increase in costs, higher polycounts on the ingame meshes don't take that much longer to create. People won't understand this of course, it's easier to look at the increase in dev costs last gen and then multiply that with the increase in power to come to the conclusion that gaming is doomed :d
Actually retailers get little to no margin on consoles.A $500 BOM console with a $400 price tag is a loss much closer to $300 than $100 or do you think retailers sell them out of the goodness of their hearts?
Actually retailers get little to no margin on consoles.
Looking at the leaked Xbox 720 powerpointI will only say this.
Friend works at ******* and told me they have the nextXBOX devkits. He wouldn't tell me specifics about the cpu and gpu and such. But said this to me over chat,
"lets just say that wheny you're developing for the pc 32-bit, 4gb might be the thereotical limit but you normally and only allocate 2gigs. Well, for the new xbox, you can allocate well over 4 gigs
that's all i'm going to say"
Take it what you will.
All I can say is I can not wait to see their game.
Microsoft employee said:PS4 and our next box will both be power-house beasts. I wouldn't doubt that Sony *would* try to (once again) find some leg-up on our platform in terms of raw power... but will it matter? No. They'll be a virtual 'wash' once again, or close enough to it that any spec spikes one has over the other won't manifest itself in a meaningful way.
What will matter are the services (Xbox LIVE, OS features, cloud integration, etc.), ease of development (SDK, tools, profiling, simple multi-platform compiling, etc.), business models/plans (freemium, retail, online, streamable, etc.), and community - the entire 'ecosystem'... all of which MS has a huge lead and proven record for over Sony.
Hint: 20... 5T,8T - 4G, 6G ...13
Microsoft employee said:Too much ram, eh? We'll see how that plays out...
I can assure everyone here - Microsoft has no intention of orphaning the 360 the way we had to abandon Xbox 1. We're intending families to keep/use their 360's even after they buy into the next gen. BC in the Xbox 720?
We'll continue supporting 360 in all kinds of ways even after the next gen launch... so anyone who doesn't want to dive directly into next gen will have plenty of content to keep them busy until they do make the plunge.
That said, the new system will rock your world... I can't wait for us to unleash the plan to our customers... because it's finally a plan I think only Microsoft is positioned to deliver. We're finally bringing together ALL of our strengths, and making something that no one else could really truly compete with... I'm sure Sony's next machine will be great, and I'm sure Nintendo's WiiU will have some great games - but I know that neither of them are positioned to truly compete with what we've got on the horizon... it's really, really exciting. I was enthused for our 360 launch, and I was *REALLY* excited about the potential Kinect unleashed to the world of electronics, but this is by far the most excited I've ever been for any of our products, and I've been working at MS for nearly 12 years now.
From the NeoGAF Xbox thread:
Looking at the leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint
It's also a whole home DVR which will need multiple tuners.
From KageMaru post on BY3D
Multiple posts by others trying to discover what the hint means:
so the 20 and 13... those have to be 2013 right?
and those 4GB. i believe it's CPU, that would be too much RAM
More hints on the hint:
Yes... 6G 8T - related... 4G 5T related
the 4/5 and 6/8 refer to something with regards to specs
Speculation:
So Two SKUs a 5 Tuners 4 Gig of RAM and 8 Tuners 6 Gig of ram
PS4 with essentially the same performance without the tuners but with a Google TV HDMI pass-thru and Feature set (Microsoft thinks Sony will do this, it's in the Leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint)? Something like NASNE to provide DVR features for Sony.
Both platforms are targeting the living room and XTV; ATSC 2.0 and hbbTV DVB as well as Cable custom solutions built on ATSC-DVB Software stacks and Tru2Way/RVU.
There have been rumors of Microsoft developing a Game Console/Set Top Box for cable companies. To support the coming XTV on Cable requires access to scrambled cable channels (Tuner) and the ability to descramble (Cable card). Cable box DVRs have multiple tuners 4-6. Over The Air ATSC 2.0 requires a tuner(s) also but no cable card.
Tru2Way cablebox DVRs support RVU which both the Xbox 360 and PS3 can use.
It's all about an easy to use one box solution for the living room that also serves handhelds. Windows 8 ecosystem with the Xbox 720 the living room server to everything in the home.
Sony was counting on the US AllVID proposal which would be a 6 tuner/cablecard device connected to the home network and RVU serving to everything in the home. It looks like cable companies deliberately stalled that proposal. Microsoft with the Xbox 720 would be working with Cable companies while Sony is having to provide ALLVID like ability in a separate device (NASNE).
It looks like Microsoft will have multiple SKUs so I expect you are right and a Different model for EU. The Sony setup would then be a more EU version that also works in the US with something like NASNE or using the RVU ability in the US Tru2Way.All this tuner talk will be irrelevant in the UK market. Neither Sky nor Virgin will allow third party tuners, guaranteed. They've never done deals and I can't see them starting any time soon. They will have all the impact of the PlayTV in this market if that's their big play. PS3 already had a browser too. Nobody buys consoles for these features.
Jeff, that Microsoft employee sounds like someone In marketing trying to drip feed hype as a start to the new generation. There is very little substantial in what is suggested and nothing new except the beginning of the usual trash talk that both companies will engage in.
The allocation of greater than 4gb ram is discussed as being a major point for the xbox but he then discusses how close the systems will perform. He says Sony will try to beat specs, may succeed but then it won't matter because they will be close enough together in performance to be "a wash". His comments are all over the shop.
Sony reps will start bleating the same message as we get closer to the hype season.
Of course, it's to be expected. Some of the text does strike a chord with what I expect. The "It's all going to be about the services" and both will have similar performance is what I expected from a "if both are built from the same AMD building blocks then optimal would be essentially the same design. Then we have the leak stating that they will be the same except for minor tweeks due to DirectX - OpenGL.Jeff, that Microsoft employee sounds like someone In marketing trying to drip feed hype as a start to the new generation. There is very little substantial in what is suggested and nothing new except the beginning of the usual trash talk that both companies will engage in.
The allocation of greater than 4gb ram is discussed as being a major point for the xbox but he then discusses how close the systems will perform. He says Sony will try to beat specs, may succeed but then it won't matter because they will be close enough together in performance to be "a wash". His comments are all over the shop.
Sony reps will start bleating the same message as we get closer to the hype season.
Remember the Microsoft QOS patent and QOS mentioned in the leaked Xbox 720 Powerpoint. In below see left of center Memory QoS for APP pool.Donnie said:I agree it doesn't add up IMO. I mean how can a developer "allocate well over 4GB" to games in a system with 6GB total memory and extensive OS and media functions when the basic model has 4GB total and has to support the same OS and a lot of the same features? The way MS are going with the OS and media even if they had one system with 6GB I'd be suprised if they could allocate well over 4GB to games (unless well over 4GB means 4.5GB...).
From the NeoGAF Xbox thread:
Jeff, that Microsoft employee sounds like someone In marketing trying to drip feed hype as a start to the new generation. There is very little substantial in what is suggested and nothing new except the beginning of the usual trash talk that both companies will engage in.
The allocation of greater than 4gb ram is discussed as being a major point for the xbox but he then discusses how close the systems will perform. He says Sony will try to beat specs, may succeed but then it won't matter because they will be close enough together in performance to be "a wash". His comments are all over the shop.
Sony reps will start bleating the same message as we get closer to the hype season.
Wouldn't surprise me if we see two XBox3 models each with different amounts of RAM. Simply for the media functions. 4GB for the basic model with 2GB reserved for OS and various features. 6GB for the top model with 4GB reserved for OS and features.
But we aren't going to see one having a much more powerful GPU then the other, its just not going to happen.
Remember the Microsoft QOS patent and QOS mentioned in the leaked Xbox 720 Powerpoint. In below see left of center Memory QoS for APP pool.
I always thought it a good find and didn't have anything to contribute until I researched Sony's NASNE with multiple "6T" tuners "CLICK". Both Sony and Microsoft are going after the same Living room XTV essentially the same way. Even without the hints and your cite, it's obvious that all the Xbox and Cable TV rumors as well as the Xbox 720 powerpoint support the same.Did you also see how I pointed out the original person who directed me to these quotes is a major Xbox fanboy and these hints should be taken with a grain of salt? The only real reason I even quoted those posts was to see what a Microsoft employee at B3D thought of them.
APP pool of always loaded APPS requires memory. If a consumer wants more RAM storage for APPs he has it in the more expensive SKU. If he wants the cheaper 4 gig model the QOS would support more APPS but would impact gameplay. QoS is all automatic and must be supported by Game Developers. It could also allow more than 4 gigs of memory for a running game.How does that answer the inconsistency I brought up though? Are you suggesting the rumoured RAM amounts will be only for games and they aren't mentioning the memory reserved for OS/features?
Even if that were the case what would be the point in releasing two versions with 4GB for games on one and 6GB on another.
Then we have the leak stating that they will be the same except for minor tweeks due to DirectX - OpenGL.
MS and Sony likely don't know much more than we do from rumors. I don't think some people here realize how serious people are about NDAs in the industry. Very few people are willing to sacrifice their career to leak something to the competition or press. Not to mention the legal repercussions.
APP pool of always loaded APPS requires memory. If a consumer wants more RAM storage for APPs he has it in the more expensive SKU. If he wants the cheaper 4 gig model the QOS would support more APPS but would impact gameplay. QoS is all automatic and must be supported by Game Developers. It could also allow more than 4 gigs of memory for a running game.
Your stuck in Console mode. When you initialize a program on a PC you ask how much memory is available because it's variable. You then configure your program to use available memory in one of several models based on available memory. Memory QoS just means a Game Console OS now acts more like a OS on a PC.I'm still seeing the same problem. If the basic model has 4GB total then allowing more than 4GB of memory for a single game on the 6GB model is going to require the game to be downscaled on the 4GB model.
Also you can clear as many apps are you like, but the OS is still there. Or are you claiming that this QoS idea means a developer can decide to use the system purely for its game and therefore turn off all OS and app features while their game runs? Because that seems to go against the idea MS have for the system (a multi tasking media and games machine).
What i will say is that this coming gen looks to be very similar in approach to the last based on the rumours we can see as "reasonable".
MS will produce a feature rich, technologically solid machine focused on delivering services in its key areas (US), but focus the majority of them behind a paywall. They will rely mainly on third party exclusives (especially outside the first 2 years) bought with the traction that these services will or wont get and spend billions in making you think you need it. Sony will produce a higher spec machine, with less features, but maintaining free support of key functionality. They will focus on first party development to "wow" the gamers into early adoption but will struggle to both focus and deliver its message to take advantage.
It looks like Microsoft will have multiple SKUs so I expect you are right and a Different model for EU. The Sony setup would then be a more EU version that also works in the US with something like NASNE or using the RVU ability in the US Tru2Way.
We didn't understand the 2011 Sony TVs having hbbTV support & Opera, it was because the BBC has been broadcasting 1080P since 2011 and that requires h.264 which is part of hbbTV DVB. You are going to be 2 years ahead of us as far as the new standards here (ATSC 2.0). We are going to support the hbbTV DVB stack (Java) as well as XHTML (ATSC 2.0) for XTV applications.
We didn't get the Play TV or Torne DVR either. Sony now has NASNE in Japan but might provide something like it for EU and the US. Cable companies scrambling everything not mandated by the FCC creates a different market here.
It will probably be as automatic as possible. Remember we are most likely talking about a user base that will not want to think about settings. What do you think Microsoft (the Windows 8 guys) think about consumers. Lots of settings or automatic with little control?I'm in console mode because this is a console.. or it should be.
So you think this is going to be a case of going into settings in your game and configuring the display options like a PC? With the system removing apps and turning off functions depending on how much resources you decide the game can use?
Did you also see how I pointed out the original person who directed me to these quotes is a major Xbox fanboy and these hints should be taken with a grain of salt? The only real reason I even quoted those posts was to see what a Microsoft employee at B3D thought of them.
Kinda funny how I make that post around a month ago and just now it's gaining traction here. =P
I agree with the point you're making, but there are devs at B3D saying that even a 2x difference in flops won't make a noticeable difference to the general public.
I assume both MS and Sony would want to shrink down the footprint size of the OS next Gen, especially if it's large as we may see with MS. I question how having two separate memory sizes would hinder this.
Also I don't think either will have much advantage in the GPU department.
I can't see MS or anyone designing a console and have other functions take away memory from the gaming side resources.
I see it simply ending up like the Vita and how mobile phones manage memory, there will simply be a large part of memory that only the Apps can use, apps can then use those resources that are dedicate to them without affecting the games running at the same time and the system will warn you if something is trying to use more than it can by closing something else.
It will probably be as automatic as possible. Remember we are most likely talking about a user base that will not want to think about settings. What do you think Microsoft (the Windows 8 guys) think about consumers. Lots of settings or automatic with little control?
I may prefer Microsoft as my favorite system but you can say what you want as it does not change the friends i have who work in the industry. Ill gladly bet you anything on the validity of my source. Ill work on getting specific details when he feels less pressured about leaks.
jeff_rigby said:We didn't understand the 2011 Sony TVs having hbbTV support & Opera, it was because the BBC has been broadcasting 1080P since 2011 and that requires h.264 which is part of hbbTV DVB. You are going to be 2 years ahead of us as far as the new standards here (ATSC 2.0). We are going to support the hbbTV DVB stack (Java) as well as XHTML (ATSC 2.0) for XTV applications.
I guarantee you they are not. There is a petition right now for the BBC to upgrade their paltry 1440x1080i 8mbps broadcast bandwidth to something that can actually be considered HD.
There simply isn't the spectrum for them to broadcast 1080p. We are still switching over from analogue ffs!
If I'm reading this correctly you have 8 Mhz wide TV channels and we have 6Mhz wide TV channels for Over The Air. You have been watching 1080P (h.264) XTV since 2011 (hbbTV DVB), we are yet to get real time h.264 but Non-Real-Time transmission of h.264 video was authorized a few months ago. NRT h.264 1080P and Mobile DTV are parts of ATSC 2.0 that have been authorized with more to come by first quarter 2013.3/29/11 said:The BBC in the UK are trialling new encoder software for their Freeview HD (OTA DVB-T2) broadcasts of the BBC HD channel (not BBC One HD, and not the satellite or cable variants)
This new encoder software dynamically switches (on GOP boundaries I think) between 50i and 25p encoding on-the-fly (not just flagging elements of a 50i stream for progressive encoding - but effectively switching the main video format) - meaning shows shot 25p are encoded in 25p mode (even though the master tape is 50i - effectively 25psf) and it can mean that shows - like Top Gear - that mix 50i and 25p content (or include 50i moving graphics over 25p content) trigger numerous encoder changes between 50i and 25p during a show.
So far most receivers aren't having problems with this BUT Sony IDTVs seem to have audio glitches on the format switch (Sony might have thought that the switch would only occur once at the start of each programme rather than repeatedly throughout a show)
This sort of means the BBC are broadcasting in 1080p (albeit 25p - and not continuously!)...
I suppose one aim of this change would be to see if the bitrates can be reduced further. At the moment in the UK we have FOUR 1440x1080/50i H264 (aka MPEG4) streams with AAC audio being carried in a single RF channel - but I think the aim is to get this to FIVE? (This is using the new DVB-T2 encoding system which allows approx 40Mbs to be carried in each 8MHz channel)
Direct TV won't allow third party tuners either but do provide RVU support which is all that is needed to support XTV (along with a Internet connection). The ALLVID FCC proposal did include Cable and Satelliteherod said:All this tuner talk will be irrelevant in the UK market. Neither Sky nor Virgin will allow third party tuners, guaranteed.
If this proposal goes through then the Xbox 720 described in the leaked 2010 powerpoint is not needed, Sony's Nasne is not needed.http://www.wired.com/business/2011/02/allvid-tech-alliance/ said:How would AllVid break down this wall? FCC chairman Julius Genachowski described the gadget 10 months ago, indicating cable, satellite or telco video providers would send their signals to “a small adapter on the customer’s premises that would present a standard interface to all consumer devices.”
AllVid could be connected to TVs, computers — pretty much anything that can show multichannel video or internet fare. Thus internet and multichannel TV would be integrated. DOCSIS cable modem and multiple TV tuners in one box providing both Internet access and video stream access over the home network or with MOCA using the home TV Cable lines.
The FCC is proposing this as a replacement for its failed CableCard device — the data and security card that was supposed to let consumers pick their own set-top box. Its limited capabilities made it a flop on the video device market.
Direct TV won't allow third party tuners either but do provide RVU support which is all that is needed to support XTV (along with a Internet connection). The ALLVID FCC proposal did include Cable and Satellite
The timing of the above was a few months before the Leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint and articles I have read have resistance from Cable Companies to AllVID.In this Notice of Inquiry, the Commission seeks comment on specific steps we can take to
unleash competition in the retail market for smart, set-top video devices (“smart video devices” that are compatible with all multichannel video programming distributor (“MVPD” services. Our goal in this proceeding is to better effectuate the intent of Congress as set forth in Section 629 of the Communications Act of 1934, as amended.
In particular, we wish to explore the potential for allowing any electronics manufacturer to offer smart video devices at retail that can be used with the services of any MVPD and without the need to coordinate or negotiate with MVPDs.
We believe that this could foster a competitive retail market in smart video devices to spur investment and innovation, increase consumer choice, allow unfettered innovation in MVPD delivery platforms, and encourage wider broadband use and adoption.
More specifically, we introduce the concept of an adapter that could act either as a small “set-back” device for connection to a single smart video device or as a gateway allowing all consumer electronics devices in the home to access multichannel video programming services. Unlike the existing cable-centric CableCARD technology, this adapter could make possible the development and marketing of smart video devices that attach to any MVPD service anywhere in the United States, which could greatly enhance the incentives for manufacturers to enter the retail market. As conceived, the adapter would communicate with the MVPD service, performing the tuning and security decryption functions that may be specific to a particular MVPD; the smart video device would perform navigation functions, including presentation of programming guides and search functionality.
The Commission seeks comment on this concept. We also invite any alternative proposals that would achieve the same objective of eliminating barriers to entry in the retail market for smart video devices that are compatible with all MVPD services.
The term “smart video device” refers to a product that is capable of navigating the universe of video content available to a viewer. Traditionally, these devices have been cable or satellite set-top boxes, but have expanded to include video game systems, digital video recorders, and home theater personal computers, and which, with the AllVid adapter could additionally provide access to over-the-top services like internet video.
IF the TV is a Smart TV yes but is everyone going to go out and buy a Smart 1080P TV @ $1400 or would they buy a PS3, Xbox 360 at $200 and use their current TV? This is a big opening starting in 2013 for Sony and Microsoft to get their game consoles into the living room and is a big reason why I assumed both would be getting major hardware redesigns to both make them cheaper and support multiple features that can't be supported by cheaper Set top boxes made in China.RVU makes all the built-in tuner talk irrelevant, and is a protocol any hardware manufacturer can implement. It's not a win for consoles at all. If anything, it makes them even more redundant than they are currently; the TV itself can do it.
IF the TV is a Smart TV yes but is everyone going to go out and buy a Smart 1080P TV @ $1400 or would they buy a PS3, Xbox 360 at $200 and use their current TV?
Page 12 on a road map for OpenGL and OpenGLES beyond 2013 and includes hints on NextGEN Console.
Baseless extrapolation.Page 9 "Programmers View of SoC 2012" should be similar to AMD next gen Consoles.
What does this have to do with anything? All they mention under WebGL are Opera/Firefox, and upcoming support for Chrome. OpenCL support is mentioned for MacOS. Sony is ultimately going to use their own custom APIs ala libgcm. Yes, they'll be similar to the khronos ones, but customized to exposing the specific HW, so what does it matter what is said about OpenCL/WebGL (for other platforms even)?Page 17 OS adoption of WebGL and OpenCL