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[lastflowers]

COD + Digital Foundry in December should be very interesting. Titanfall on ps4 after a year VERY interesting.

or just look at BF4/Watchdogs/Fifa?

Why would looking titanfall a year later do anything for you?

 

[velociraptor]

FAKE EDIT-

I'll also add that I expect very few instances this gen of one version of a game being seriously poor compared to the other. I tihnk the similar architectures will be a huge win for single platform gamers being relatively safe to buy whatever version of the game they have the system for. I don't think we'll see many, if any, Bayonetta like scenarios where one platform is extremely superior.

I am not so sure about that. The PS3 and 360 were evenly matched. In this case, the PS4 appears to be a runaway winner - at least on paper. But I guess we will have to wait and see.

 

[qa_engineer]

What makes the PS4 easier to develop for other than esRAM on XBOne?
I haven't heard about anything other than that.

From what I've read, the PS4 development tool chain is further along than that of XBone. Pretty sure if you did a search on GAF or Google you'll find the same articles and posts.


Edit: found it
http://www.pushsquare.com/news/2013...environment_is_much_more_mature_than_xbox_one

 

[Codeblew]

You have to remember that both platforms have nearly identical architectures and therefore very little optimization is needed to improve one version over the other. This isn't cell vs xenon. This is AMD x86 apu vs better AMD x86 apu.

Also AMD GPU with 12 CU's vs AMD GPU with 18 CU's.

 

[Septimus Prime]

What makes the PS4 easier to develop for other than esRAM on XBOne?
I haven't heard about anything other than that.

PS4 has a huge-ass, unified pool of fast RAM. "What should we dump into RAM? Everything!" Done.

Xbox One has two separate pools of RAM--one very fast and one slow--connected by a small bridge of ESRAM. "What needs to be in the fast RAM? Okay, now let's move it to the large pool while moving this around. Okay, now...wait. This needs fast RAM at the same time. Hmm. Let me see..."

This is the same advantage that Xbox 360 has over PS3 in terms of RAM.

EDIT: I apologize; I didn't read your question properly.

 

[qa_engineer]

Also AMD GPU with 12 CU's vs AMD GPU with 18 CU's.

Right the apu consists of GPU and CPU on same die. CPU is the same for both, but GPU, ram type, and bandwidth are better on ps4

 

[Vashetti]

Bit of misinformation in the first post, no?

Naughty Dog's A-Team made Uncharted 2 and then moved on to The Last of Us, whilst their B-Team made Uncharted 3, hence why Uncharted 3 isn't as good as Uncharted 2.

Right?

 

[Codeblew]

Right the apu consists of GPU and CPU on same die. CPU is the same for both, but GPU, ram type, and bandwidth are better on ps4

I misread your post as x86 CPU instead of x86 APU.

 

[nib95]

Bit of misinformation in the first post, no?

Naughty Dog's A-Team made Uncharted 2 and then moved on to The Last of Us, whilst their B-Team made Uncharted 3, hence why Uncharted 3 isn't as good as Uncharted 2.

Right?

Whoops, you're right. Fixed.

 

[shinobi602]

Bit of misinformation in the first post, no?

Naughty Dog's A-Team made Uncharted 2 and then moved on to The Last of Us, whilst their B-Team made Uncharted 3, hence why Uncharted 3 isn't as good as Uncharted 2.

Right?

Are we talking visually here? Because Uncharted 3 definitely looked better graphically over 2. Not by a huge margin, but it did.

 

[StuBurns]

Bit of misinformation in the first post, no?

Naughty Dog's A-Team made Uncharted 2 and then moved on to The Last of Us, whilst their B-Team made Uncharted 3, hence why Uncharted 3 isn't as good as Uncharted 2.

Right?

'Team 2' isn't really any different to saying B-Team.

EDIT: Oh, he'd already fixed it.

 

[Tenacious-V]

You have to remember that both platforms have nearly identical architectures and therefore very little optimization is needed to improve one version over the other. This isn't cell vs xenon. This is AMD x86 apu vs better AMD x86 apu.

True, but I still expect more of the same. If they can shave time/money off development, they will. Most go for "good enough" especially with multiplats. That's why I put in that there will be some games here and there that the PS4 version will be top, as there will be times where they will put in that bit of extra effort.

But most under the big publishers follow the save money, milk it quick, and pop 'em out fast routine.

 

[nib95]

But most under the big publishers follow the save money, milk it quick, and pop 'em out fast routine.

Precarious position when it comes to graphics and tech. last thing you want is to be left behind by the first party devs. That looks bad on the developer. They'll need to make some efforts to keep up parity with the better looking stuff.

 

[Vashetti]

Are we talking visually here? Because Uncharted 3 definitely looked better graphically over 2. Not by a huge margin, but it did.

I'm talking the entire quality of the game.

 

[Router]

I expect multi platform titles to look mostly the same. I cant see too many publishers wanting versions to look vastly different on different platforms.They have relationships to think about. Parity is the key which I'm fine with.

as long as we dont have a repeat of this gen where we get basically broken games shipped.

 

[ALBOFIGHTER]

I don't know what publisher's policies are for multiplat. Maybe they get payed extra to not enhance the ps4 version. I'd rather wait and see how it turns out. I will be surprised if they do more then slight frame/resolution upgrade for ps4 version of games. It might depend on the publisher.

Keep in mind, if you build a game for xbox, you can just easily port it to ps4 right away. Would a publisher really spend extra development resources to make the ps4 version better rather then do a quick port and sell it? Market share should play a role too.

 

[qa_engineer]

True, but I still expect more of the same. If they can shave time/money off development, they will. Most go for "good enough" especially with multiplats. That's why I put in that there will be some games here and there that the PS4 version will be top, as there will be times where they will put in that bit of extra effort.

But most under the big publishers follow the save money, milk it quick, and pop 'em out fast routine.

I tend to agree with your statement as well. This much was evident this generation as very few 3rd parties optimized for PS3. And PC games suffered from developers having to develop for the lowest common denominator (consoles).

With that said, the landscape is seemingly different this upcoming generation. The hardware is truly comparable to desktop hardware and memory is no longer a bottleneck (at least for the next 3-5 years). I truly believe that 3rd parties will be able to optimize their games on each platform rather easily. Maybe not the first wave of games, but certainly mid 2014 titles and beyond.

 

[Black Republican]

pretty much expecting multiplats to be the same,

 

[Espada]

I think this is the first time where two consoles have been so similar that we can actually have Apples vs Apples comparisons between them. Just thinking about that makes me smile.

Anyway, I think launch titles won't be indicative of either machine's performance because of their circumstances of their development (working on unfinished hardware for 90% of development). Remember that Gen 7 started with nonsense like Wall Guy, but ended with nice looking games like Halo 4 and The Last of Us.

What will begin to happen is that PS4 games will slowly become the obvious winners in faceoffs like DF's. Several things play into this, like the larger quantity of high speed memory available to games, and the significant advantages its GPU has over its competitor. The biggest differences will be seen in 1st party developers who don't have to cater to a lowest common denominator and can simply focus on PS4-only development techniques.

One thing that interests me is how soon (and to what extent) will we see GPU compute being used in next gen games. I say this because Marck Cerny went on at length about how powerful this is, and what modifications he made to the console to maximize its use of it.

Here's a nice overview of some benefits games can see from it

 

[USC-fan]

I would say every third party game will look/run better on PS4. Not really even a debate.

Xbone can fake a lot of stuff with its display planes. So it can render the UI at 1080p but the game is running in 720p. So saying the game is running at 1080p/60fps is correct but its also faked.

 

[Tenacious-V]

Precarious position when it comes to graphics and tech. last thing you want is to be left behind by the first party devs. That looks bad on the developer. They'll need to make some efforts to keep up parity with the better looking stuff.

If you aim for lowest common denominator and make it look good on XB1 having parity on PS4 is the good enough factor. There's generally no reason as a multi to spend the extra time/money to boost one over the other.

There also will be little chance of them competing anyway vs 1st parties who build to the bone for 1 platform only. You'll never match them.

Most likely the multi games will be using some licensed engine built for both platforms anyway which are never as good as 1st party efforts. That's why you'll only see the really outstanding stuff from exclusives and 1st parties.

 

[qa_engineer]

I think this is the first time where two consoles have been so similar that we can actually have Apples vs Apples comparisons between them. Just thinking about that makes me smile.

Anyway, I think launch titles won't be indicative of either machine's performance because of their circumstances of their development (working on unfinished hardware for 90% of development). Remember that Gen 7 started with nonsense like Wall Guy, but ended with nice looking games like Halo 4 and The Last of Us.

What will begin to happen is that PS4 games will slowly become the obvious winners in faceoffs like DF's. Several things play into this, like the larger quantity of high speed memory available to games, and the significant advantages its GPU has over its competitor. The biggest differences will be seen in 1st party developers who don't have to cater to a lowest common denominator and can simply focus on PS4-only development techniques.

One thing that interests me is how soon (and to what extent) will we see GPU compute being used in next gen games. I say this because Marck Cerny went on at length about how powerful this is, and what modifications he made to the console to maximize its use of it.

Here's a nice overview of some benefits games can see from it

Thanks for the link. I'm more excited about the APU technology than the games... sometimes. SHHHHH don't tell SonyGAF.

 

[Espada]

If you aim for lowest common denominator and make it look good on XB1 having parity on PS4 is the good enough factor. There's generally no reason as a multi to spend the extra time/money to boost one over the other.

There also will be little chance of them competing anyway vs 1st parties who build to the bone for 1 platform only. You'll never match them.

Most likely the multi games will be using some licensed engine built for both platforms anyway which are never as good as 1st party efforts. That's why you'll only see the really outstanding stuff from exclusives and 1st parties.

Eh, I don't know about that. There are a number of things that could easily be cranked up for a PS4 version that wouldn't require much work. I don't know if the developer would be content leaving their game not looking at least as good as other offerings on that platform. Marketing might also get involved, so if it's capable of adding extra sparklies that can be shown in a screenshot they might be pressured to do it.

Something like this is not far fetched:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtN50vQj5TU#t=2m27s

Thanks for the link. I'm more excited about the APU technology than the games... sometimes. SHHHHH don't tell SonyGAF.

Heh, I can't blame you. This is heady stuff we're on the verge of seeing. I'm eager to see which developer is first to start exploiting it.

 

[KaYotiX]

No. People don't want the Xbox to be 'bad.' Facts are facts, the Xbox is less powerful on paper.

If anything it will be the same as this gen. PS4 exclusives will be amazing and third party will be the same for the most part across both consoles.

If third party games have a huge disparity then ill prolly swing over to PS4 for those and use my Xbox One for MS exclusives.

 

[Tenacious-V]

I tend to agree with your statement as well. This much was evident this generation as very few 3rd parties optimized for PS3. And PC games suffered from developers having to develop for the lowest common denominator (consoles).

With that said, the landscape is seemingly different this upcoming generation. The hardware is truly comparable to desktop hardware and memory is no longer a bottleneck (at least for the next 3-5 years). I truly believe that 3rd parties will be able to optimize their games on each platform rather easily. Maybe not the first wave of games, but certainly mid 2014 titles and beyond.

I wish I had your optimism! heh. Hopefully I'm proven wrong.

Eh, I don't know about that. There are a number of things that could easily be cranked up for a PS4 version that wouldn't require much work. I don't know if the developer would be content leaving their game not looking at least as good as other offerings on that platform. Marketing might also get involved, so if it's capable of adding extra sparklies that can be shown in a screenshot they might be pressured to do it.

Something like this is not far fetched:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtN50vQj5TU#t=2m27s

It's a possibility sure, and I hope they do, but I'm not really optimistic when it comes to 3rd party multi games.

 

[CLEEK]

it also looks as though ps4 and Xbox one are approaching their hardware in a completely different way.

No they're not. Outside of memory (where the Xbox One has a more complicated, less optimized design), the core architecture of the Xbox One and PS4 are the same.

ps4 is a very 'brute force' high theoretical performance machine.

Xbox one looks like a heavily optimized machine, with lower theoretical performance but little drop-off for real time performance.

I have concerns over the brute force method, because without proper tools optimization will be very tricky.

Again, not true. The APU of the Xbox One is fundamentally the same as the PS4, just with fewer CUs which results in ~600GFLOPS less performance. CPUs are identical. Generation of GPU is identical.

By all accounts, the development tools for the PS4 are more mature than the Xbox One.

 

[Raymo]

It really just comes down to the tools available.

3rd party may look at development for x1 due to the shared kernel making portability theoretically easier.

it also looks as though ps4 and Xbox one are approaching their hardware in a completely different way.

ps4 is a very 'brute force' high theoretical performance machine.

Xbox one looks like a heavily optimized machine, with lower theoretical performance but little drop-off for real time performance.

I have concerns over the brute force method, because without proper tools optimization will be very tricky.

we still don't have the full picture though on either, but I'm really not expecting much of a difference if any. Neither machine is perfect, we just need to see which will equip developers better to take advantage of their methods and architecture.

WHATTHEFUCK hahaha

 

[SniperHunter]

Again, not true. The APU of the Xbox One is fundamentally the same as the PS4, just with fewer CUs which results in ~600GFLOPS less performance. CPUs are identical. Generation of GPU is identical.

By all accounts, the development tools for the PS4 are more mature than the Xbox One.

you forgot about the OS. The Xone OS takes up 3 GB RAM, utilizes 2 CPU cores and takes up 10% of the GPU.

 

[ALBOFIGHTER]

Another thing to keep in mind is that multiplatform games are all basically Xbox one exclusives on a technical level. Basically devs can code to the metal on Xbox, squeeze as much as possible out of it just as an exclusive studio would, and then port it on ps4 without much problems since ps4 is superior and has the same architecture.

It's another reason why I hope the rumours for the down clock are false otherwise we are all screwed no matter which console we choose.

 

[Jack_AG]

I don't think we will see much of a difference from 1st year games, TBH. Most will also have current gen releases. After a year I think we will see the PS4 pull ahead by a noticeable difference. 1.2 to 1.8 isn't a small bump but its not PS2/Xbox difference IMO.

 

[qa_engineer]

Another thing to keep in mind is that multiplatform games are all basically Xbox one exclusives on a technical level. Basically devs can code to the metal on Xbox, squeeze as much as possible out of it just as an exclusive studio would, and then port it on ps4 without much problems since ps4 is superior and has the same architecture.

It's another reason why I hope the rumours for the down clock are false otherwise we are all screwed no matter which console we choose.

I don't think theres any validity to those down clock rumors. They'll just produce fewer units at launch to match the less than optimal yields of the APU.

 

[Spongebob]

Since early titles will be mostly cross-gen, the differences between the PS4 and Xbone versions will be very small I'd wager.

Since we'll see a lot more next-gen only titles in 2014, the differences will become very apparent.

It really just comes down to the tools available.

3rd party may look at development for x1 due to the shared kernel making portability theoretically easier.

it also looks as though ps4 and Xbox one are approaching their hardware in a completely different way.

ps4 is a very 'brute force' high theoretical performance machine.

Xbox one looks like a heavily optimized machine, with lower theoretical performance but little drop-off for real time performance.

I have concerns over the brute force method, because without proper tools optimization will be very tricky.

we still don't have the full picture though on either, but I'm really not expecting much of a difference if any. Neither machine is perfect, we just need to see which will equip developers better to take advantage of their methods and architecture.

I'm not sure where you are getting this from.

 

[CLEEK]

I'd love to see the timeframe breakdown for Durango/Xbone devkits. Can anyone provide the details like nib95 has done for the PS4?

The Xbone games running on PCs running Nvidia Titans (e.g current 2013 top end GPUs) at E3 raised eyebrows, but then sources said MS claim these are official devkits. Surely MS would have dev kits with final silicon (AMD APU and ESRAM) by now, not powerful 2013 spec PCs with completely different Intel/Nvidia architecture.

The infamous SuperDEA devkit was also Intel/Nvidia based, which again is weird.

 

[qa_engineer]

I'd love to see the timeframe breakdown for Durango/Xbone devkits. Can anyone provide the details like nib95 has done for the PS4?

The Xbone games running on PCs running Nvidia Titans (e.g current 2013 top end GPUs) at E3 raised eyebrows, but then sources said MS claim these are official devkits. Surely MS would have dev kits with final silicon (AMD APU and ESRAM) by now, not powerful 2013 spec PCs with completely different Intel/Nvidia architecture.

The infamous SuperDEA devkit was also Intel/Nvidia based, which again is weird.

It will be hard for anyone with a signed NDA to chime in. Would be good to see though.

 

[AgentChris]

I'm curious to see how long SCE will take to add cloud computations for graphical/AI enhancements.

 

[Espada]

I don't think we will see much of a difference from 1st year games, TBH. Most will also have current gen releases. After a year I think we will see the PS4 pull ahead by a noticeable difference. 1.2 to 1.8 isn't a small bump but its not PS2/Xbox difference IMO.

That's not where the disparity comes from though. If it was only 1.2 vs 1.8, you'd be dead on. We wouldn't see much of a difference between the two the whole generation. What differs here is that the PS4's GPU outperforms the Xbox One's across the board by a significant degree. Another aspect is the memory subsystem, where the PS4 winds up having the simpler, faster arrangement of the two. Lastly we get to the software. Microsoft has confirmed that the Xbox One has 3 OSes, with 3GB out of 8 allocated to them. This leaves 5 for gaming. The PS4 on the other hand is using a FreeBSD 9 variant, an OS known for being very lightweight. This makes the 1GB OS rumor for the PS4 a lot more plausible. This leads to a situation where the PS4 has more high speed memory available for its games than the Xbox One.

The two systems have to be taken as a whole to compare them, rather than focusing at one specific aspect.

I'd love to see the timeframe breakdown for Durango/Xbone devkits. Can anyone provide the details like nib95 has done for the PS4?

The Xbone games running on PCs running Nvidia Titans (e.g current 2013 top end GPUs) at E3 raised eyebrows, but then sources said MS claim these are official devkits. Surely MS would have dev kits with final silicon (AMD APU and ESRAM) by now, not powerful 2013 spec PCs with completely different Intel/Nvidia architecture.

The infamous SuperDEA devkit was also Intel/Nvidia based, which again is weird.

I'd love for someone with that info to chime in. We've gone with only half the story for some time now.

 

[Sub_Level]

I'm curious to see how long SCE will take to add cloud computations for graphical/AI enhancements.

85 posts to see the word cloud mentioned.

wut is going on

 

[Gaming Nostalgia]

Xbox One games don't get full access to all 8GB of RAM. IIRC 3GB is reserved for the OSes.

Yes correct, 5gb DDR3 allocated to games along with the 32mb of eSRAM. This would still put the PS4 at a disadvantage with only 4gb GDDR5 total with probably 0.5gb-1gb for OS and 3-3.5gb for games. Now all that went out the window once Sony announced 8gb unified with 1gb for OS and 7gb for games, however I feel many developers wouldn't get to take full advantage of this until after the first generation of games. In all practicality both will probably end up similar at launch.

 

[Madness]

So basically 5gb DDR3 RAM plus 32mb of eSRAM on the Xbox One, versus 7gb GDDR5 RAM on the PS4 for games only?

Can someone tell me what kind of difference can be gained from those numbers? Framerates? Textures? Etc. In layman's terms preferably.

 

[Lagaff]

Would be really nice to have the real spec of the xbone one but I suppose we will get their one day dev gonna talk about it

 

[wizzbang]

Very partially on topic (sorry)

Anyone know if the DS4 will still have the movement / gyro sensor in it like the DS3?

 

[Phinal Phantasy]

This topic, preemptive damage control?

Look, we all know PS4 will have 60 fps at 1080p locked down for all multiplatform games. Move on.

 

[Daingurse]

Wouldn't PS4 running a multi-platform title, always perform better than the the Xbone or at the very least equal it? It's the same architecture, except one box has a more powerful GPU and faster RAM.

 

[qa_engineer]

Would be really nice to have the real spec of the xbone one but I suppose we will get their one day dev gonna talk about it

Pretty sure the reason why we haven't gotten the "real specs" is because the leaks were spot on. That's why during the Xbox reveal they used some generic and non descript specs like, "5 billion transistors," and "8 gbs of RAM." Any admission to those leaked specs will further cement the consoles rep as the weaker of the two.

 

[soxinthebox]

I'm curious to see how long SCE will take to add cloud computations for graphical/AI enhancements.

Wait they can do graphical enhancements from the cloud? Sony is fucked!

 

[CLEEK]

So basically 5gb DDR3 RAM plus 32mb of eSRAM on the Xbox One, versus 7gb GDDR5 RAM on the PS4 for games only?

Can someone tell me what kind of difference can be gained from those numbers? Framerates? Textures? Etc. In layman's terms preferably.

Not all game types will make the most of 2GB of RAM in the PS4.

But they will all benefit from the higher bandwidth of GDDR5. Memory bandwidth is always a huge bottleneck in consoles and PCs, and it can affect everything. Frame rate, effects etc. Just look at AMD or Nvidia GPUs for PCs where you can get DDR3 or GDDR5 versions. The GDDR5 versions always have better benchmarks across the board.

 

[Biker19]

I'd guess multiplat designers will design for the least powerful system (XB1 by the looks of it), and PS4 first party stuff will look a couple notches better throughout the gen. Looking forward to seeing what Naughty Dog stretches out of the system though when it's all over.

Publishers/Developers aren't going to make Xbox One the lead platform just because "it's weaker;" they're going to make PS4 the lead platform because it's more easier to develop for than the Xbox One is.

Why? The developers have to use both the 32MB of eSRAM and Move Engines, along with DDR3 that needs extra programming code just to get optimum performance for XBO's versions of games.

If not PS4, than the PC would most likely be the lead platform, then port to PS4, then to Xbox One.

 

[Phinal Phantasy]

Wouldn't PS4 running a multi-platform title, always perform better than the the Xbone or at the very least equal it? It's the same architecture, except one box has a more powerful GPU and faster RAM.

This.

 

[Espada]

So basically 5gb DDR3 RAM plus 32mb of eSRAM on the Xbox One, versus 7gb GDDR5 RAM on the PS4 for games only?

Can someone tell me what kind of difference can be gained from those numbers? Framerates? Textures? Etc. In layman's terms preferably.

Memory doesn't process or render anything. That's what the CPU and GPU are for. Memory is basically a game's "budget" of how many assets they can have on-screen at a given time. Going overbudget causes your framerate to collapse. In practical terms it means developers to take advantage of that extra memory will be able to have more of the game world in memory than on the competition's hardware, the world would become more persistent rather than having disappearing bullet holes and so on. The speed just means one will keep the GPU fed better than the other. Of course, this assumes the developer uses it at all.

The most relevant differences are in the GPUs themselves.

 

[LAMBO]

I'm from the future so I own both consoles and i'm an expert. Ms's cloud made magic and i'm playing at 4K res. PS4's GDDR3 caught on fire and burned my house down.