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#PS4NoDRM #XboxOneNoDRM || Now do you "Believe?"

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A

androvsky

Member
famousmortimer said:
After feeling like the sky was falling on this industry i feel more optimistic now myself. I don't think Cerny had taken the ps4 this far to let it get hung up in such stupid shit.


Maybe I'm just going through the stages of grief. :/
Click to expand...

Grief doesn't start until we get bad news. Until then, it's just second-guessing yourself.

Sony knows what it's like to be on the receiving end of internet hate. They know they can survive it, but they know MS can handle it too. Why jump in the frying pan with MS when they can turn up the heat?
 
R

Red-Shift

Neo Member
Hope it's not arrogant to quote myself, but my post went a bit under amidst the 2 Phase.

I'd love your input though!

Hopes and wishes aside. Facing reality and taking Sony's past stance as a publisher and overall entertainment company into account. How would you re-evaluate the chance that Sony deliberately passes on the opportunity to lock down their system in favor of a E3 PR coup?

Personally I always feared this day would come after PC gamers wholeheartedly supported STEAM. Today there are no more used games on PC. And while Valve at least offers excellent sales for patient gamers, there is no way in hell the console biz has the same mindset. Instead they shamelessly abuse the power they have to milk your passion for every penny you got. And with a monopoly on used games it's only going to get worse. It's the equivalent of modern electronics that are built to break. It's a worst case scenario, but why wouldn't you want to limit an entire game library to a single console generation, so everyone has to buy the re-release (renew the license) on the next one?

We wouldn't even have to debate this if console manufacturers weren't publishers themselves. Shared interest is the only reason third parties were able to lobby for such draconian limitations on consoles. And like I mentioned below Sony shared those interests with third parties long before MS ever did.



Red-Shift said:
Whatever the outcome of this campaign, I really hope all of you keep this attitude alive, not caving in like that infamous MW2 Steam boycott group. This is an awesome campaign, but there is a good chance Sony has an agreement with publishers they can't or simply don't want to back out of.

Sony has been pushing hard for the ban of used game sales in the past, especially in Japan. They are publishers themselves after all. Between 1999 and 2002 it was illegal to sell used games in Japanese retail shops.(Here - Maybe some Japanese Gaffers can corroborate?). Sony fought tooth and nail, joining Japan's biggest publishers in a lawsuit against a big retailer called ACT to keep it that way. Same old argument, every sold used game equates to a lost sale of a new copy. Ironically it was this lawsuit that led to the lift of said ban by Japan's high court(Here).
Furthermore, Sony had patents in place to block used games way before the PS3 came out (Here).
Microsoft probably wasn't even dreaming about blocking used games back then, since they couldn't afford losing Gamestop as a retail partner to establish the US 360 user base they can build on today. Sony couldn't risk it either with the 360 as a real threat to the PS3. Gamestop could have easily used that situation to play them out against each other, stocking the 360 but not the PS3, had Sony dared to unilaterally go ahead and cut GS out of their most lucrative business.

But now the global user base for both platforms sit at a comfortable and equally high level. Brands are established and with Microsoft's used games strategy on the horizon, no used games on PC, why would Sony all of a sudden have a change of heart about something they basically hated and thought about abolishing for the past 15 years?
I doubt Sony and Microsoft share the same passionate hate for each other as some gamers might expect them to, compelling both companies not to work together on this issue, shoving the inconvenient truth, that you never owned a game contained on a physical disc to begin with, down their consumer's throat. You only acquire a license for the bits and bytes on your disc, hence the first sale doctrine legally doesn't even apply anymore (Here).

People need to be educated. It's the ignorance of the masses Sony, Microsoft and all other content providers count on, heading full steam (no pun intended) ahead into the next generation and a digital only era with all its power shifting restrictions. We need to argue about ridiculous ToS agreements, that take all rights away from consumers, even going so far to forbid you to join a class action lawsuit (Here & Here).

This is so much bigger than just used games. Imagine you get banned on Xbox Live. Hundreds if not thousands of dollars ($60 games + dlc and subs included on the X1) in (perceived) value are gone just like that as soon as your system breathes its last breathe. And you know it will happen sooner than later, with the 360's built quality and comments from Yusuf Mehdi expecting to sell 25 million more 360s, half of them coming from replacements (Here). Even if you get banned for all the right reasons. Does that justify the termination of your entire gaming library? Or shouldn't losing access to the service and hours spent achievement hunting be enough punishment? Not to mention the lack of preservation of games, should XBL, Steam, iTunes and other services like that ever shut down.

Of cause all of you probably know that already, but I think it's worth to take a step back and remind ourselves to look at the bigger picture. Should this campaign fail, the time will come, when we'll have to vote with our wallets denying ourselves all those sweet exclusives by taking a stand.

Lets hope we'll leave our mark in gaming history, after all, hope dies last.

Keep up the great work Neogaf!
Click to expand...
 
S

Scherzo

Banned
Sean*O said:
When PS4 sells 20:1 vs Xbone publishers will not sit idle and pass up that user base. If they do, they die, and new publishers and developers pop up to take their place, just like any other business.
Click to expand...

The problem is Third Party sales drive console purchases unless you're Nintendo. If stuff like CoD, Battlefield, Madden, and Assassin's Creed aren't available to Sony, that's gonna be an uphill battle for them.

BTW, what do we know of the DRM plan Sony was considering? Is it all that bad?
 
M

MogCakes

Member
Red-Shift said:
And like I mentioned below Sony shared those interests with third parties long before MS ever did.
Click to expand...

True, but Sony has had a change of management over the years and Krazy Ken is no longer at the helm. The only thing we can really do is try to inform others, and we've hopefully done that with the media coverage. It's their turn to act now.

Scherzo said:
The problem is Third Party sales drive console purchases unless you're Nintendo. If stuff like CoD, Battlefield, Madden, and Assassin's Creed aren't available to Sony, that's gonna be an uphill battle for them.

BTW, what do we know of the DRM plan Sony was considering? Is it all that bad?
Click to expand...

So far we know from famousmortimer that it has something to do with RFID.
 
S

Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew

Banned
All I can say is that not everyone is fucking rich to buy and play all the games; certainly not me.

I know a lot of people who are able to own a lot of games because they trade in the old one and use that money to buy new games. I'm sure there are poorer gamers because they buy the traded games.

The problem here is that developers think they're untouchable. No more will I ever preorder a game blindly. No more will I have to "avoid spoilers" or "not wait for reviews". No more will I fall for PR bullshit. I am going to be far more patient before I even drop money on a game. I am going to think twice before I feel generous and double-dip so I can lend a copy to my friend who can't afford it but wants to play it just because I love the developers. I'm sorry developers, but that particular love is now dead. I am not going to think of you as the one who is being ripped apart by publishers. Enjoy while this all lasts.

If PS4 has the same issue as Xbone then I am done with gaming, flat out. I love the industry but this isn't the way it should be, and it is.

Microsoft is clearly catering to North America and probably Europe. We have games that sell for dirt cheap (or probably free) in Russia, China and other parts of the world. As elitist as it may seem, GAF is not the only place where a lot of people decide what to get based on free online or not, based on DRM or not. PC gaming is practically dead everywhere else in the world and its not because that PCs are expensive but because it's expensive to afford the games. Steam is a worldwide service but people still pirate PC games in other parts of the world.

To those saying "WHY WOULD YOU BUY A GAMING CONSOLE IF YOU CAN'T AFFORD GOOD INTERNET OR GAMES?!"; Fuck you. Fuck you down to the teeth just because you think someone shouldn't enjoy entertainment in the comfort of their home. Fuck you because a lot of people play games as a stress reliever or as a past time with friends and family. Fuck you because these people buy used games or borrow games from friends in order to enjoy it.

We are so lucky that mediums like music and movies are more visual and auditory. I bet they were prevent people from listening to someone else's music or movies without paying. Imagine you want into a friend's house. He just bought a CD. You want to borrow it and he says "Not until I add you to my itunes library friends list and not until we are there for 30 days." Can you imagine that? The closest we came to it was from Sony's hideous DRM for Music CDs, and we all know how that turned out.

This is not a cry or a complain or a rant. This is weirdly me giving an ultimatum to myself. I have spend 20+ years of my life enjoying gaming as an entertainment medium. Maybe its time to grow up and move on. Maybe its time to say I'm done. But I have hope Sony won't fuck up.

Before you say "Buy a Wii U". No thanks. I want a controller that doesn't require recharging every 3 hours. I want a console that doesn't get exclusion of loads of games. Maybe when Nintendo comes up with a newer console that is on par with the generation it maybe on and maybe when publishers say "Hey Nintendo. We cool, right?" and maybe when Nintendo starts acting desperate and start tossing money at the developers to ensure games release on their console as well; maybe I will make a permanent switch.

And to think this shit was added to please the publishers who are making money off us, and not us who are eventually going to buy all these games and consoles from hard earned money that we earned elsewhere. How about they fucking pay me to play their shit games. What will I do when the game that looked and sounded so amazing turns up to be shit? Who will I toss it towards? Who will I sell it to?






Or maybe I will get a Wii U... Its better than nothing.
 
S

Scherzo

Banned
MogCakes said:
So far we know from famousmortimer that it has something to do with RFID.
Click to expand...

If the quotes I hear are correct, though, it'd be up to the publisher's discretion whether to use it, right?

TBH, as long as it doesn't have the internet requirement, that's a huge step up over Xbox. It's not optimum for us as consumers of course, but it at least puts us at parity with Steam, which Xbone can't claim to do.

I wouldn't be surprised if Sony has some DRM implementation, but I have an inkling it won't be near as draconian as MS's.
 
S

Scherzo

Banned
But I think the hard question we have to ask ourselves is: do we matter to them? That is to say; does winning brownie points in the short-term for not having restrictive DRM really benefit them? I'd like to think that a lot of gamers who were considering the Nextbox have switched over; but when they launch how can we be sure we won't be swept up in the hype as we always have been. I think the abject failure of the Wii U though is a bit encouraging, no offense to Nintendo fans, but at the same time MS has the capital to launch a media blitz to shove the Xbone down casuals throats. I can hope that they won't give a fuck, and tbh good money would say they'd just see the Xbone as the new Zune to Apple's Apple TV. You just can't be sure about these things. I know damn well there's nothing MS could do to win me over; and I hope Sony recognizes how much this matters to us. We probably are going digital only eventually, but we don't want to be anally penetrated by it and told we should consider it a privilege.
 
Z

Zarrastro

Member
OK. Just came back here and i still don't understand this hate wave. Did SONY announce bad news? Or MS? What made all of you change your mind?

I'm still optimistic. The twitter campaign was a success with SONY (I didn't even cared for MS, they were a lost cause) Remember @yosp joking about a bit? Remember the feedback and coverage we got?

Come on, guys, remain positive!
 
S

Scherzo

Banned
Zarrastro said:
OK. Just came back here and i still don't understand this hate wave. Did SONY announce bad news? Or MS? What made all of you change your mind?

I'm still optimistic. The twitter campaign was a success with SONY (I didn't even cared for MS, they were a lost cause) Remember @yosp joking about a bit? Remember the feedback and coverage we got?

Come on, guys, remain positive!
Click to expand...

It's just that if Sony clearly did not have a DRM system that in any way resembled Microsoft's; they'd be way less coy about it. The fact that they are is not encouraging. Like I said before I don't think it'll be anywhere as draconian, but we shouldn't expect it to be a total bastion against anti-consumer policies.
 
A

Amatsu

Neo Member
Baller said:
BELIEVE
Click to expand...

Was reading over his other tweets and he seems to genuinely care and get it, saying "Personally, this whole thing about licensing games instead of buying them really hurts my head. Feels like you never really own them" and "Yeah, but that still doesn't make it feel any better. Can't collect what you don't really own, right?"

I'm still not getting my hopes up for E3 in light of Microsoft's release of information, however... could be all downhill from here.
 
S

Shaneus

Member
Scherzo said:
But I think the hard question we have to ask ourselves is: do we matter to them? That is to say; does winning brownie points in the short-term for not having restrictive DRM really benefit them? I'd like to think that a lot of gamers who were considering the Nextbox have switched over; but when they launch how can we be sure we won't be swept up in the hype as we always have been. I think the abject failure of the Wii U though is a bit encouraging, no offense to Nintendo fans, but at the same time MS has the capital to launch a media blitz to shove the Xbone down casuals throats. I can hope that they won't give a fuck, and tbh good money would say they'd just see the Xbone as the new Zune to Apple's Apple TV. You just can't be sure about these things. I know damn well there's nothing MS could do to win me over; and I hope Sony recognizes how much this matters to us. We probably are going digital only eventually, but we don't want to be anally penetrated by it and told we should consider it a privilege.
Click to expand...
I think there could be the hype at the start, but what about the people who get a One and a few games, play them once or twice then realise that they can't just sell the games to a mate for $20? IMO that's when you'll start seeing reports on the Today show and various mainstream media outlets about how anti-consumer it all is.
 
I

Impeccable

Member
I hate it when a post gets closed after you type of a huge post.

I'll type this here although it echoes a lot of what I've said in the past over here.

Here's my summary of why I fucking hate Microsoft at the moment. Since a lot of websites are too afraid to defend gamers.

1) No rentals. I wouldn't be a gamer without rentals. I grew up renting games and exploring random and weird titles. It built me into the diverse gamer that I am today. You can only imagine HOW many people are in the exact position I am and how many gamers going forward will MISS out on this opportunity. Microsoft, EA, Ubisoft and Activision - you are killing innovation.

2) No private sales. I still do but to a lesser extent now I'm in a better financial position buy NEW games then sell them privately on Kijiji/Craigslist for $40-$50 fairly soon after launch. I get a good chunk of my money back. It FUNNELS BACK into more NEW games and I continually do that for the entire generation. Talk about killing my ability to do so. Net? Lost sales.

3) Used game sales were DOWN last year and only in total 1.59 billion dollars in 2012. DLC sales were up over 22% (I believe). You're killing off a bunch of used copies of those games and not allowing them to purchase a bigger market in downloaded content. You fucking idiots, another loss.

4) I live in a rural part of Canada and while my internet is solid and rarely goes down it STILL DOES. Why should I not be allowed to play videogames because of where I'm located in the world. Why should I not be allowed to play video games because of things that are out of MY control.

I'm not even going to touch on the craziness of having to have Kinect connected at all times because that's not the fight.

These companies are chasing a SHORT TERM gain in finances while disregarding what BUILT gaming in the first place. They'll suddenly look at their sales in 1, 5, 20 or 50 years from now and wonder why gaming stopped growing and why they can't financially keep up their output and it'll be their short minded fault. They ignored how to build brands and they ignored the ability to create NEW gamers going forward.

And the saddest part of all of this? They could have waited until next generation, a mere ten years away to push an all digital future and we wouldn't have been so offended or outraged. You pick your battles and these companies are run by fucking suits who don't realize there is more to building a healthy ecosystem than choking it and strangling it while trying to squeeze out paltry amounts of money for a short term financial high five.

That is why I'm pissed off and frothing at Microsoft. Fuck anyone who thinks this is a loyalty brand fight.

#PS4noDRM - I will fight.
 
K

Kane1345

Member
m0dus said:
Do not see Microsofts announcement as failure. People succeeded in making ether voices heard around the world, in multiformat news that otherwise would have ignored us. Widening the net got responses that helped carry the message further than it would have gone.

I think it bears mentioning that it is our job to be heard, but it was their failure in not listening.
Click to expand...

^ this
 
S

Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew

Banned
m0dus said:
Do not see Microsofts announcement as failure. People succeeded in making ether voices heard around the world, in multiformat news that otherwise would have ignored us. Widening the net got responses that helped carry the message further than it would have gone.

I think it bears mentioning that it is our job to be heard, but it was their failure in not listening.
Click to expand...

You make it seem so nice. <3
 
F

Freki

Member
m0dus said:
Do not see Microsofts announcement as failure. People succeeded in making ether voices heard around the world, in multiformat news that otherwise would have ignored us. Widening the net got responses that helped carry the message further than it would have gone.

I think it bears mentioning that it is our job to be heard, but it was their failure in not listening.
Click to expand...

That did cheer me up - healthy way of looking at things.
 
M

megashock5

Member
Krusenstern said:
Seriously, I can barely feel any joy for the upcoming E3 right now. All I want to know is Sony's move on this. Games aside. All I want is clarification now.
Click to expand...

It's sad, isn't it?

E3 in a year where two new consoles are being released, where the excitement should be through the roof, is now more "we know one sucks, please don't let the other one suck" anxiety.
 
L

LuchaShaq

Banned
SolidSnakex said:
I'm completely with you. But doesn't seem to be the reality we live in anymore. :/ It really seems like the best we can hope for is that Sony doesn't implement system level DRM and just leaves it up to publishers. Obviously it'd be great if they told publishers that they aren't allowed to block games, but that seems highly unlikely.




h5
Click to expand...

Then the reality is that I will never buy a ps4 if they allow this crap. They need to prove to me they deserve my money not the other way around.
 
F

Freki

Member
Saw this on reddit - maybe that's a good idea?

[360 owners] If you're unhappy with the XBox 1, Call Microsoft and remove auto-renewal and all credit cards. Let them know DRM is the reason why you're leaving.
Click to expand...
link
 
G

ginger ninja

Banned
future is bleak as fuck, like i say about dying..it's not that i am afraid of dying, it's just that i am afraid of dying alone..

It's been a pleasure serving with you so far comrades...so brothers, let us stand together in this hour of darkness as storm approaches...if we are gonna down, let us die fighting and holding hands !

Brothers to the end !


P.S in other words, i just want to feel their is universal condemnation about this shit by all gamers who really love games and no one, least of all fellow brothers, betray our righteous cause

P.P.S ok i am getting tingles now
 
F

Freki

Member
Something to cheer you up a little bit:
WiJt0iM.jpg
Click to expand...
 
J

John Harker

Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
m0dus said:
Do not see Microsofts announcement as failure. People succeeded in making ether voices heard around the world, in multiformat news that otherwise would have ignored us. Widening the net got responses that helped carry the message further than it would have gone.

I think it bears mentioning that it is our job to be heard, but it was their failure in not listening.
Click to expand...

it may not have an affect, but really the best thing you can do it right now is make even more noise. make their bottom line feel threatened. return lots of games or something.

but you didn't hear that from me
 
B

brandtron8000

Neo Member
I honestly feel that Microsoft's policies were looking even worse before this whole movement started. Especially the part about being able to give away a game once to a minimum 30-day friend, that sounds like they pulled it out of their ass at the last minute to appease the reaction.
 
D

Deitus

Member
Freki said:
Saw this on reddit - maybe that's a good idea?


link
Click to expand...

I would do that, if I hadn't already cancelled my XBL subscription. I do hope that this combined with everything else people are doing sends a message to Microsoft that they manage to finally listen to though.

The only thing that would make me happier than Sony going out and saying in explicit terms that they will not in any way restrict used sales, lending, or trading, or in any way impose restrictive DRM, would be for that to happen and Microsoft to realize that being the only restrictive platform puts them in a bad position and reverses their policies. I doubt it will happen before launch, but maybe 6 months to a year out, the sales figures will leave them no choice.
 
D

Deraj

Member
Going by comments from a few journalists, and by the TV-TV reveal, I think MS was far more out of touch than anybody realised.. and that the present anti-gamer nightmare is actually Plan B.. a slight improvement on never-offline Orthian Plan A "Deal With IT(tm)". In their own arrogant way, they probably feel that they "listened" in makingca grudging and token half-step backwards.. easing up to a microscopic extent on the original restrictions. I also share the sinking feeling that Sony will bring restrictions on the used game market as famousmortimer suggested.
 
M

maquiladora

Member
brandtron8000 said:
I honestly feel that Microsoft's policies were looking even worse before this whole movement started. Especially the part about being able to give away a game once to a minimum 30-day friend, that sounds like they pulled it out of their ass at the last minute to appease the reaction.
Click to expand...

And remember thats only something you'll be able to do for sure with 1st party Xbone games. For 3rd parties, it's something the publishers can "enable" for their games.
 
D

dragonmoony

Banned
SolidSnakex said:
I'm okay if they purely leave it up to publishers. No system level nonsense. Put it entirely in the hands of the publishers and leave everything up to them. Much like with online passes. If that's what happens them i'm cool. I simply won't buy games from those publishers.
Click to expand...

Got to agree, when it's not at system level, you can hold the specific publishers accountable for the DRM, and they can't hide behind the console policy. All you do then, is not buy any games from those publishers.
 
S

ShogunDarius

Member
dragonmoony said:
Got to agree, when it's not at system level, you can hold the specific publishers accountable for the DRM, and they can't hide behind the console policy. All you do then, is not buy any games from those publishers.
Click to expand...

I'm hoping if they do that then we may see very few utilize it, PS3 is region free but devs can region lock, only Atlus did that with P4A and the hate they got for it made them promise they wouldn't do it again.
 
M

Manmademan

Member
ShogunDarius said:
I'm hoping if they do that then we may see very few utilize it, PS3 is region free but devs can region lock, only Atlus did that with P4A and the hate they got for it made them promise they wouldn't do it again.
Click to expand...

Capcom also used always-on DRM for a couple of titles. Final Fight double impact and (i think?) Bionic Commando Rearmed.

They got so much negative feedback they never tried it for higher profile titles, and no other developer bothered even though the capability was built into the PS3 from day 1.
 
E

Elaugaufein

Member
maquiladora said:
And remember thats only something you'll be able to do for sure with 1st party Xbone games. For 3rd parties, it's something the publishers can "enable" for their games.
Click to expand...

This is an important distinction even in leaving it the publishers. If its setup as opt-out (which is how MS's is spinning it since publishers "enable" things) then Publishers can and will continue to hide behind platform policy. If its opt-in then publishers do have to take it on their own heads at least.
 
R

Replicant

Member
Manmademan said:
Capcom also used always-on DRM for a couple of titles. Final Fight double impact and (i think?) Bionic Commando Rearmed.

They got so much negative feedback they never tried it for higher profile titles, and no other developer bothered even though the capability was built into the PS3 from day 1.
Click to expand...

I'm one of those people who asked for refund once I found out about it. Have incomplete trophy from that game because of it but fuck Crapcom if they think they can make me buy a game with DRM ever again.
 
I

iratA

Member
Replicant said:
I'm one of those people who asked for refund once I found out about it. Have incomplete trophy from that game because of it but fuck Crapcom if they think they can make me buy a game with DRM ever again.
Click to expand...

This is amazing I never heard of this. Can someone point me to a link about this stuff. To the best of my knowledge all PS3 games were region free.
 
F

famousmortimer

Banned
The credit card/customer service call to microsoft is a brilliant move. I would do it myself if I didn't sell my xbox a year ago.


Still so incredibly aggravated with Microsoft. Don't fuck this up, Sony.
 
E

Elaugaufein

Member
iratA said:
This is amazing I never heard of this. Can someone point me to a link about this stuff. To the best of my knowledge all PS3 games were region free.
Click to expand...

Different things. A couple of Capcom games required you to be signed into the PSN to play them (ie Always Online).

I believe Persona 4 Arena is the only region locked PS3 game.
 
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