PS4's AF issue we need answers!

RobRSG

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Jun 3, 2013
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I doubt he would have any idea about it, better a developer
I know Shu is not the best option, but I'd like to know if he is aware.

Do anyone know if Cerny has a twitter account? I tried to find it but no luck.

Maybe he is not even aware of the problem.
 

omonimo

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Jun 6, 2012
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I don't say you are wrong as I don't say I am right but the whole discussion just lacks any specific numbers so either one can say what he want to prove another wrong when he in fact doesn't.
But to b) and c) you are also assuming that you only have to subtract the CPU max bandwidth from the total max bandwidth and get what is available for the GPU but we don't know if this is true in reality. Of course you can do this when arguing but don't assume people will just follow statements when there is no proof behind that this is valid.
Again, we don't know any specifics on the actual numbers so unless we hear from a dev this is all fishing in muddy waters, no matter how hard one tries to present his opinion in this case as a fact.
The fuck are you talking about? He has explained perfectly how wrong it's your statement, you provided an old leak not updated just to support your bizzarre idea and you continue to insinuate doubt of something which you don't know exactly how works. Not sure to understand your purpose.
 

omonimo

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Jun 6, 2012
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Eh, how would *you* know that?
Wat? Jeez are you deliberately trolling? Why you continue to talk of the nothing? What you said it's incredibly pretentious.
I mean if that explanation is not enough:
a. CPU bandwidth is a very low number in general. For the most of CPU tasks latency is more important than bandwidth. That's why you don't generally see much difference in performance on PC between 2 and 4 channel memory platforms.
b. Maximum CPU bandwidth possible is a known number on PS4.
c. Even if we subtract that number from the whole PS4 GDDR5 bandwidth we're still left with a figure which is several times higher than that on slower PC GCN cards _and_ on XBO.
d. AF is cached on modern GPUs and its external bandwidth requirement is actually very low. Hence why it's nearly "free" on low end GPUs which don't have even 1/10th of PS4 memory bandwidth.

This argument is invalid and can't be the reason why PS4 has no AF in some titles when compared to XBO and PS3.
I though it's quite clear how bizzarre is your doubt.
 

c0de

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Aug 22, 2012
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Wat? Jeez are you deliberately trolling? Why you continue to talk of the nothing? What you said it's incredibly vague.
I mean if that is not enough:

I though it's quite clear how bizzarre his your doubt.
Unless anyone shows me that dr_rus has any credibility he is as believable as any other guy here. And getting personal is a weak thing to do when you are in a talk.
But as I said, I would be fine if someone proves me wrong but currently all I see is different opinions of how it could work.
 

pixlexic

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Nov 10, 2012
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People still saying it's all on the developers side huh?

I don't buy that for a moment. Something somewhere is making this harder than it should be.
 

kitch9

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Jan 23, 2007
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Unless anyone shows me that dr_rus has any credibility he is as believable as any other guy here. And getting personal is a weak thing to do when you are in a talk.
But as I said, I would be fine if someone proves me wrong but currently all I see is different opinions of how it could work.
Do you want your earplugs? Might save you from sticking your fingers in your ears?
 

dr_rus

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I don't say you are wrong as I don't say I am right but the whole discussion just lacks any specific numbers so either one can say what he want to prove another wrong when he in fact doesn't.
But to b) and c) you are also assuming that you only have to subtract the CPU max bandwidth from the total max bandwidth and get what is available for the GPU but we don't know if this is true in reality. Of course you can do this when arguing but don't assume people will just follow statements when there is no proof behind that this is valid.
Again, we don't know any specifics on the actual numbers so unless we hear from a dev this is all fishing in muddy waters, no matter how hard one tries to present his opinion in this case as a fact.
Unless there is some terrible awful flaw in PS4 APU design - for which case there are several strong points why it can't be it really - there really is no reason to doubt my line of thinking as it is based on data freely available to you or anyone else on the web. What numbers do you want? Did you check the benchmarks for AMD's Jaguar based APUs at least? Do they have any issues with forcing AF in any titles?
 

JK-Money

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Apr 28, 2014
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People still saying it's all on the developers side huh?

I don't buy that for a moment. Something somewhere is making this harder than it should be.
If it was a tech problem compared to developer dont you think a developer would be a little outspoken against the issue and say what the problem really is
 

-griffy-

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Apr 14, 2012
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People still saying it's all on the developers side huh?

I don't buy that for a moment. Something somewhere is making this harder than it should be.
How do you explain games that have it then? That those devs just worked harder to overcome whatever problem there is to implement it?

The only concrete info we have is an ICE team member saying there's no problem with implementing the effect on the system.

Clearly there's something going on. It doesn't seem to be with the system as evidenced by games that have it, and the comments from the ICE dev.

I don't see why it's implausible it's on the dev side, whether it's a problem with their dev tools, an issue with specific engines not implementing the effect properly on the system (something breaking the flag when porting to PS4?), and devs just simply not noticing, not caring to fix it, or not having the time to fix it. Or a combination of all of that.
 

Slaythe

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Apr 18, 2014
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Yeah if xbox one and hell even 360 and ps3 have better AF than ps4, there is no way in hell performance is the answer as to why it's literally absent in the games listed here ...

PS4 AF on DmC is worse than xbox 360. You can't possibly make sense of that.

So if there isn't an actual problem with ps4, then clearly there was an issue with the devkit where the Developers just didn't care about fixing it or working harder to get it done.

It can't be performance issue on last gen ports.
 

IAmRandom31

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Aug 4, 2013
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How do you explain games that have it then? That those devs just worked harder to overcome whatever problem there is to implement it?

The only concrete info we have is an ICE team member saying there's no problem with implementing the effect on the system.

Clearly there's something going on. It doesn't seem to be with the system as evidenced by games that have it, and the comments from the ICE dev.

I don't see why it's implausible it's on the dev side, whether it's a problem with their dev tools, an issue with specific engines not implementing the effect properly on the system (something breaking the flag when porting to PS4?), and devs just simply not noticing, not caring to fix it, or not having the time to fix it. Or a combination of all of that.
It's not implausible. People are just afraid to go that route. Cardinal sin to call out a developer or a programming team for being " lazy " or too rushed to fix things.

Thats why situations like the FFXIII PC port exist. All that time to rush out the PC port and you can't even get a 1080p version. But give someone like Durante a single day and they will unlock resolution and all kinds of other graphical features for the title.

It IS on the developers, in the end. Even if the API was complete and utter shit and they had to write in the texture filtering in fucking assembly language, they could get it done if they wanted to.

There are a ton of reasons why it could happen in the end. Ranging from developers not having enough time to optimize, the DirectX heavy code not porting well to the PS4 SDK ( which again just means more time optimizing for the new SDK, which they end up not doing ), they are hitting some sort of power limit and can't even afford a 3-4fps hit, they think it looks fine and people won't notice. On and on . So many things could occur with it, but when it comes down to it, if they worked hard enough on it, they could implement it.
 

dan2026

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Jul 10, 2012
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This thread is completely pointless until somebody in the industry speaks up.

We still know nothing.
 

Brohan

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Oct 26, 2013
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This thread is completely pointless until somebody in the industry speaks up.

We still know nothing.
Somebody from the ICE team has already stated that the PS4 has no problems handling AF x16.

Seems to me that it's a dev thing.
 

dan2026

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Jul 10, 2012
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Wow is that the first game to go back and correct the AF issue?

Maybe there is some hope for DmC. And others.
 

ekim

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May 2, 2012
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So it looks like whatever it is/ It's not a performance issue and is patchable.
Maybe devkits and debug units react different as in that retail units might only have a problem and don't recognize a flag or something?
 

Xenus

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This should have been clear from the start but some are just too eager to find faults.
I think it's more of a we haven't had followups to show if it's done or not. Would be nice for a dev of such to comment on what happened.
 

dr_rus

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Dunno if mentioned here but Dying Light before and after newest patch.
Cool. This pretty much confirms that the issue is because of some tool mishandling the AF settings translation between authoring environment and PS4 output.

What still boggles my mind though is how QA is letting this slip through them as this is such a jarring issue.

Like before, this is a dev problem
It's not a dev problem if it only exist in PS4 versions. Devs can't specifically disable AF on PS4 while it was enabled on PS3. There is no reason to do this.
 

Pankratous

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Nov 12, 2013
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Can see a pretty plain, very obvious difference in the DmC shots.
Can't see a difference at all in the Dying Light patch shots.
 

Slaythe

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Wow that dying light patch !!!!!!!


Can we please mass PM Ninja Theory to fix DmC ? Patches are free on ps4 so they won't even lose money.
 

astraycat

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Apr 3, 2013
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Cool. This pretty much confirms that the issue is because of some tool mishandling the AF settings translation between authoring environment and PS4 output.

What still boggles my mind though is how QA is letting this slip through them as this is such a jarring issue.
So a dev problem.

It's not a dev problem if it only exist in PS4 versions. Devs can't specifically disable AF on PS4 while it was enabled on PS3. There is no reason to do this.
Eh? If the devs made tools that are mistranslating such settings, who's fault is that?
 

wowzors

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Can't say I'm surprised that Techland would be the company to fix this. They often release things a tad rough but they are pretty committed to fixing and polishing their games.

I hope ninja theory fixes this, but I really wouldn't hold my breath on it.
 

GRaider81

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Mar 6, 2014
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People still saying it's all on the developers side huh?

I don't buy that for a moment. Something somewhere is making this harder than it should be.
When the absolute vast majority dont have a problem? Yeah id say its on the developers.
 

Elandyll

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Oct 13, 2014
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Several completely unrelated devs made a tool with the same problem? It's more likely to be a problem of some 3rd party library, possibly included into SDK.
No, the SDK would impact all third party the same, and it's not the case.

It looks like either an engine (UE3 seem particularly touched) based problem, or a Dx-> OpenGl conversion tool problem... Or both.

Not necessarily dev "based", but not taking the time to manually activate AF if missing after port -is- on the devs, if it's that.
 

Lord Error

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Cool. This pretty much confirms that the issue is because of some tool mishandling the AF settings translation between authoring environment and PS4 output.
Looks like it (and that's good news, IMO).

What still boggles my mind though is how QA is letting this slip through them as this is such a jarring issue.
I don't think it's jarring looking issue for an untrained eye, at all. Nothing on the level of heavy aliasing or heavy tearing which just screams at you that something with the picture looks 'wrong'. I know GAF will have you believe otherwise, but of all the graphical deficiencies, the lack of AF is probably the least noticeable one for untrained people, especially in newer games where the flat surfaces are usually broken up so much either by geometric detail or shader effects. I also think a lot of people who don't know better would look at it and think "OK, so things in distance look blurrier, just as they do in real life when I focus on things closer to me!!" and don't think much of it.