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PS4's AF issue we need answers!

lightchris

Member
Apr 12, 2012
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But having said that - AF is nearly free in a sense that the performance hit from AF on modern GPUs is so small that you won't be able to even see it most of the time. It is less than 1% for AF 16x on a GM204 chip for example.

There isn't a fixed cost for AF (and not even really a worst case). This always depends on the scene the system has to render. No matter the GPU there will always be instances where the performance cost exceeds 1%.

I ran a quick check with Trackmania Valley right now on my Radeon R9 280 (very close to GPUs in PS4 and Xbox One, just with more compute units and more bandwidth). GPU running at 1.1 GHz (3.94 GFLOPs), memory at 1.5 GHz (288 GB/s).
75 fps with 16x AF, 86 fps at 1x AF (just trilinear). In other words, without AF the performance was almost 15% higher in that scene.


I realize that there are (many) other cases where the cost of AF is hidden, but you can't just draw the conclusion that it is always the case just from that. My guess is that most console games that employ limited degrees of AF (between 2x and 8x) are doing it for performance reasons.
 

pottuvoi

Banned
May 17, 2010
3,821
34
780
I realize that there are (many) other cases where the cost of AF is hidden, but you can't just draw the conclusion that it is always the case just from that. My guess is that most console games that employ limited degrees of AF (between 2x and 8x) are doing it for performance reasons.
In some cases where one has highly specular surface which tends to alias a lot.
One could use slightly lower AF to reduce frequency of texture in grazing angle and thus aliasing.
 

Mastperf

Member
Oct 28, 2007
2,078
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I asked him about BF : Hardline :

BF : Hardline PS4 vs. Xbox One comparison soon?

He said to me :

Sorry was not enough demand for it so I left at the XboxOne analysis, sorry.

Demand???

He takes note of the suggestions in his comments. I assume he means he had very few recommendations for a Hardline face-off.
 

EGM1966

Member
Aug 5, 2011
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Hmm. I was hoping they'd actually addressed the issue. Well, thanks anyway.

I think its unlikely that'll happen TBH. Remember you have to consider this against the backdrop that most games on PS4 have AF no problem. Therefore if you're a dev that somehow missed it you're basically admitting a mistake and how you made it or admitting you missed something in the SDK documentation a majority of other devs managed to spot.

Either way I see no business benefit for a dev that somehow "missed" AF and patched it in by going into detail publicly about the issue, hence unless an individual decides to speak out I don't expect any comments really.

The whole fracas has been a bit of a non-issue as the very fact most games on PS4 do have AF and at the same level as XB1 already proved it couldn't be a universal issue with PS4 HW or SDK vs individual cases of oversight.

Don't get me wrong I'd love to know why some devs do miss it, but I think some of the informed ideas in this thread as to why it would be intermittent and software/dev focused are the closest we'll likely get.
 

virtualS

Member
Jun 6, 2014
798
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My guess is that games with missing AF on PS4 lead development on XBO and were hastily ported over. Not one iota of care was taken or optimisation implemented.

Makes sense really. XBO is demonstrably weaker but with very similar architecture. Struggle with the weaker box and slap together the PS4 code in a week with a resolution bump.
 

dr_rus

Member
May 3, 2007
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Its not "going in circles" its simple facts...in games that have AF on both consoles the level is often much lower than 16x...

I really don't care what you or anyone feels the consoles "should" be able to do with this "free" or "almost free" operation...the simple fact is that devs make an absolutely conscious decision to use lower levels, or a variable level of AF...

Whether its a 1% hit or not is irrelevant..the devs see some sort of benefit of not just going with a blanket 16x AF implementation...

It could be bandwidth, it could be devs just saying the difference doesn't matter, so let's save any resources we can easily save, it could be anything...

A simple fact is that most of PC games use lower than 16x AF in their settings. What does that tell you?
 

Mastperf

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Oct 28, 2007
2,078
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Good, good. Now DF MUST do a patch/pre-patch comparion in tearing/framerate to see the trade-off and let us come to conclusions.

According to NX Gamer the frame-rate is just as good after the AF, LOD and light source improvements.
 

Javin98

Banned
Nov 30, 2014
6,851
1
0
Ipoh, Malaysia
I asked him about BF : Hardline :

BF : Hardline PS4 vs. Xbox One comparison soon?

He said to me :

Sorry was not enough demand for it so I left at the XboxOne analysis, sorry.

Demand???
I guess he means not enough people were asking for it, so he decided it was not worth the effort to make the video. This is discouraging, it could take a while for NXGamer to be as popular as DF. Even here on NeoGaf, there are rarely any threads dedicated to NXGamer's analysis.

My guess is that games with missing AF on PS4 lead development on XBO and were hastily ported over. Not one iota of care was taken or optimisation implemented.

Makes sense really. XBO is demonstrably weaker but with very similar architecture. Struggle with the weaker box and slap together the PS4 code in a week with a resolution bump.
I wish devs would stop doing this. When devs focus too much on the XB1 version, the PS4 version usually only gets a resolution boost or nothing at all but with worse frame rates (COD AW, AC Unity & RE:R2 as examples). This then leads to a GTX 750 Ti performing better than the PS4 version which PC elitists use to claim how "weak" the consoles are.
 

GRaider81

Member
Mar 6, 2014
2,422
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0
Been playing a tonne of MLb recently and although I'm no expert is there a lack of AF here? (Sorry for pic quality, no means of proper transfer at moment)



 

PaNaMa

Member
Jul 20, 2007
1,166
336
1,330
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What about Destiny on PS4. I just recently started playing again, and couldn't help but notice the moon surface textures sure seem.. I don't know, not sharp. Anyone know ?
 

Summer Haze

Banned
Jun 10, 2014
10,754
1
0
What about Destiny on PS4. I just recently started playing again, and couldn't help but notice the moon surface textures sure seem.. I don't know, not sharp. Anyone know ?

Yeah, the AF in Destiny is really bad. I doubt it'll ever get fixed.
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
Oct 29, 2006
42,982
0
0
What about Destiny on PS4. I just recently started playing again, and couldn't help but notice the moon surface textures sure seem.. I don't know, not sharp. Anyone know ?
The AA/AF in Destiny hasn't changed since the beta. People were noting it was poor even back then. Doubt it'll get addressed at this point.
 
Aug 28, 2013
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I think its unlikely that'll happen TBH. Remember you have to consider this against the backdrop that most games on PS4 have AF no problem. Therefore if you're a dev that somehow missed it you're basically admitting a mistake and how you made it or admitting you missed something in the SDK documentation a majority of other devs managed to spot.

Either way I see no business benefit for a dev that somehow "missed" AF and patched it in by going into detail publicly about the issue, hence unless an individual decides to speak out I don't expect any comments really.

The whole fracas has been a bit of a non-issue as the very fact most games on PS4 do have AF and at the same level as XB1 already proved it couldn't be a universal issue with PS4 HW or SDK vs individual cases of oversight.

Don't get me wrong I'd love to know why some devs do miss it, but I think some of the informed ideas in this thread as to why it would be intermittent and software/dev focused are the closest we'll likely get.
What I find interesting, and odd, is that even an exclusive game like Driveclub doesn't have AF, or very little of it.
 

dr_rus

Member
May 3, 2007
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What I find interesting, and odd, is that even an exclusive game like Driveclub doesn't have AF, or very little of it.

That's not odd at all as the exclusives are the only games which may fully max out the platform and thus there may be no resources left to enable (high level of) AF.

What's odd is when the AF is missing from a game which has it on XBO as this makes zero sense from any perspective. I'd say that the normal situation here would be when the AF is used on PS4 and is missing from XBO.
 
Aug 28, 2013
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That's not odd at all as the exclusives are the only games which may fully max out the platform and thus there may be no resources left to enable (high level of) AF.

What's odd is when the AF is missing from a game which has it on XBO as this makes zero sense from any perspective.
Well, for me, it's odd for that game since it looks so damn good, that's one of the few things missing. Of course, it's not noticeable when driving at 100+mph, but still.

I wonder if Rushy(or any dev that didn't include AF) have said why it's missing.
 

Kinthalis

Banned
Jun 13, 2013
4,750
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USA
I wish devs would stop doing this. When devs focus too much on the XB1 version, the PS4 version usually only gets a resolution boost or nothing at all but with worse frame rates (COD AW, AC Unity & RE:R2 as examples). This then leads to a GTX 750 Ti performing better than the PS4 version which PC elitists use to claim how "weak" the consoles are.

Oh, god, the irony of this post. It burns!

Specially because the poster is apparently completely oblivious to it...
 

Kinthalis

Banned
Jun 13, 2013
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Go check any PC game you'd like if you want "a cite". Or you can try pulling something else from your ass - as you did with your previous statement.

OK, Witcher 3 sets AF at 16x, so does endless legend. GTA V and Borderlands 2 allow for full AF settings, as Does ROME 2.

So yeah, you're full of shit.
 

dr_rus

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May 3, 2007
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OK, Witcher 3 sets AF at 16x, so does endless legend. GTA V and Borderlands 2 allow for full AF settings, as Does ROME 2.

So yeah, you're full of shit.

Witcher 3 is a good example because the game didn't use AF 16x on PC until a second patch came out.

Wolfenstein TOB can't use anything higher than 4x even though TNO could.

What else, what else...

Tomb Raider Underworld doesn't use 16x AF on most textures even though it says so in the settings.

The Witcher 2 doesn't have AF control at all and uses something like 4x by default.

Batman Arkham Origins doesn't have the ability to set 16x AF in its settings and uses something like 4x instead.

Dreamfall Chapters don't have any AF control and doesn't use 16x from the looks of it.

I've just went through several games I've played during the last couple of months. So it looks like it is you who is full of shit and don't know what you're talking about.
 

mike4001_

Member
Apr 4, 2014
2,841
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380
And again ....

If the PS4 hardware is capable of it then there is just something wrong with their SDK´s

But every other game has problems with AF.
 

dealer-

Member
May 13, 2015
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I think Sony released a tech note to developers about AF so it's surprising that it's still happening.
 

Donos

Member
Dec 7, 2008
8,627
1
0
And again ....

If the PS4 hardware is capable of it then there is just something wrong with their SDK´s

But every other game has problems with AF.

If the PS4 hardware is capable? Games get patched and it gets fixed so it is capable.
And not every games has problem with AF.

It's still strange.

I think Sony released a tech note to devlopers about AF so it's surprising that it's still happening.

Yep.
 

Macrotus

Member
Nov 12, 2014
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295
Payday 2

http://i.imgur.com/8SRpoCe.png[/QUOTE]

I read about this on DF.

Still no official statement from Sony?
Because the GPU in PS4 is more powerful right?

Or is AF CPU related? Because I remember reading about XBOs CPU being slightly more powerful. So if its CPU related, maybe thats the case.
I mean, thats the only conclusion I could find.

Other wise it wouldn't make sense why XBO can do it but PS4 can not.
And this problem is present in many games.
 

Bahlor

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Feb 4, 2015
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I read about this on DF.

Still no official statement from Sony?
Because the GPU in PS4 is more powerful right?

Or is AF CPU related? Because I remember reading about XBOs CPU being slightly more powerful. So if its CPU related, maybe thats the case.
I mean, thats the only conclusion I could find.

Other wise it wouldn't make sense why XBO can do it but PS4 can not.
And this problem is present in many games.

I don't think this is an hardware related problem... in my opinion it seems more related to the API. Guess this will solve itself with upcoming API updates or maybe they already did.
 

Macrotus

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Nov 12, 2014
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I don't think this is an hardware related problem... in my opinion it seems more related to the API. Guess this will solve itself with upcoming API updates or maybe they already did.

If it is, I really hope they resolve this issue quickly.
Because this has been mentioned for quite some time.
 

FunkyDealer

Banned
Mar 9, 2015
4,723
0
0
What I don't get is that even if there's a small performance impact, using at least 8x AF should be standard. There's little point in fancy high resolution textures if they'll loose all fidelity a few meters off. Even last gen games seriously benefited from it.
 

Rainy Dog

Member
Apr 30, 2008
1,515
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0
Halifax, UK
I read about this on DF.

Still no official statement from Sony?
Because the GPU in PS4 is more powerful right?

Or is AF CPU related? Because I remember reading about XBOs CPU being slightly more powerful. So if its CPU related, maybe thats the case.
I mean, thats the only conclusion I could find.

Other wise it wouldn't make sense why XBO can do it but PS4 can not.
And this problem is present in many games.

It has nothing to do with the CPU.
 

Footos22

Member
Mar 19, 2009
5,382
2
780
I read about this on DF.

Still no official statement from Sony?
Because the GPU in PS4 is more powerful right?

Or is AF CPU related? Because I remember reading about XBOs CPU being slightly more powerful. So if its CPU related, maybe thats the case.
I mean, thats the only conclusion I could find.

Other wise it wouldn't make sense why XBO can do it but PS4 can not.
And this problem is present in many games.

Its a dev related issue nothign more

was patched into dmc definitve very quickly with zero issues. same with street fighter.

They are just missing it for some reason.
 

Rainy Dog

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Apr 30, 2008
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What I don't get is that even if there's a small performance impact, using at least 8x AF should be standard. There's little point in fancy high resolution textures if they'll loose all fidelity a few meters off. Even last gen games seriously benefited from it.

Absolutely. Most of my gaming has been on PC this year and I'd almost forgotten just how much difference 16x AF makes to overall image fidelity,

I'd even argue that native 1080p is pointless when only the near proximity of the image depth actually looks 1080p. Needs at least 8x AF to back it up.
 

hodgy100

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May 3, 2011
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www.resetera.com
And again ....

If the PS4 hardware is capable of it then there is just something wrong with their SDK´s

But every other game has problems with AF.

I doubt its a problem with the SDK, more of an oversight from the developers. AF is likely off by default.

I read about this on DF.

Still no official statement from Sony?
Because the GPU in PS4 is more powerful right?

Or is AF CPU related? Because I remember reading about XBOs CPU being slightly more powerful. So if its CPU related, maybe thats the case.
I mean, thats the only conclusion I could find.

Other wise it wouldn't make sense why XBO can do it but PS4 can not.
And this problem is present in many games.

this is FUD the PS4 is capable of it, and it was confirmed ages ago that its not a problem with the API. Like i've said above, likely an oversight by developers.
 
Dec 3, 2014
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Far Cry 4 engine FORCES low or no aniso on roads lol. Let's be thankful we are not there. They REALLY need to update that part of their engine ffs.

Agreed 8xAF should be STANDARD, in capitals.
 

EGM1966

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Aug 5, 2011
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http://gearnuke.com/sony-planning-make-easier-devs-implement-af-ps4-games-report/

GAF > Internet > GAF.

The quote is somewhere in this thread but I can't find it.

So many people in this thread need to actually make and effort to understand the actual situation instead of running around scaremongering.

The majority of games on PS4 has AF and it has been confirmed multiple times that the HW and the APIs support it. Some games don't have it and it's been made clear that the developers failed to implement it properly with some (pat on back to those devs) going back and implementing it properly.

Long story short it's a developer / development process issue. But hey the very next post will probably be another "why won't they tell us PS4 has issues with AF?" concern post.
 

Shia_Labeouf

Banned
May 17, 2014
679
0
0
Why don't you both shut up about it? How ridiculous to sit here and name PC games that do and don't support 16x AF out of the millions of PC games out there. You two are why no one can have a decent conversation on this god damn website.

Witcher 3 is a good example because the game didn't use AF 16x on PC until a second patch came out.

Wolfenstein TOB can't use anything higher than 4x even though TNO could.

What else, what else...

Tomb Raider Underworld doesn't use 16x AF on most textures even though it says so in the settings.

The Witcher 2 doesn't have AF control at all and uses something like 4x by default.

Batman Arkham Origins doesn't have the ability to set 16x AF in its settings and uses something like 4x instead.

Dreamfall Chapters don't have any AF control and doesn't use 16x from the looks of it.

I've just went through several games I've played during the last couple of months. So it looks like it is you who is full of shit and don't know what you're talking about.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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Honestly there is little need for the hostility in the thread, it's pretty clear that applying AF on the PS4 wasn't as straightforward as it should have been but Sony have given guidelines on how to get it working.