• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • Hey Guest. Check out the NeoGAF 2.2 Update Thread for details on our new Giphy integration and other new features.

PS5 Backwards Compatibility

kyliethicc

Member
Mar 14, 2020
3,906
19,495
485
TLDR
All PS4 games on PS5 will run in boost mode. Full clocks. Always.
And the Xbox Series X is doing the same thing.




Introduction

Ok let’s try to make this easy to understand. I think people are confused. But I think this can be clear if you read what is said.

So the key line from Sony’s PS Blog update is this:

“We’re expecting backward compatible titles will run at a boosted frequency on PS5 so that they can benefit from higher or more stable frame rates and potentially higher resolutions.”

Ok so Sony is expecting PS4 games will always be in boost mode (full clocks.) Again, this line is very important. It says PS4 games are expected to run in boosted frequencies. Not some games, not even most. They just say “backwards compatible titles” meaning ALL PS4 games will use the full CPU and GPU clock speeds on PS5.

This makes sense. Why wouldn’t you just run the full clocks all the time? Games would always run at least good as they did, or they’d run even better. The results would vary, but this certainly implies they will NOT have a non-boost mode. (But maybe they could change their approach later with an update, idk.)




Exhibit A

So read Sony’s full statement from the PS Blog:

“A quick update on backward compatibility – With all of the amazing games in PS4’s catalog, we’ve devoted significant efforts to enable our fans to play their favorites on PS5. We believe that the overwhelming majority of the 4,000+ PS4 titles will be playable on PS5.”

“We’re expecting backward compatible titles will run at a boosted frequency on PS5 so that they can benefit from higher or more stable frame rates and potentially higher resolutions. We’re currently evaluating games on a title-by-title basis to spot any issues that need adjustment from the original software developers.”

“In his presentation, Mark Cerny provided a snapshot into the Top 100 most-played PS4 titles, demonstrating how well our backward compatibility efforts are going. We have already tested hundreds of titles and are preparing to test thousands more as we move toward launch.”


https://blog.us.playstation.com/202...ls-of-playstation-5-hardware-technical-specs/

Notice they don’t say all games. This probably implies they know a few games might not be playable. Why? Because boosted clocks could brake a game’s code (as I’ll show when Cerny says this exact thing.) Sony probably just don’t want to over promise. Better to over-deliver then disappoint.

Obviously, they also don’t say “most games at launch.” The timeframe is vague. So... worst case, most games are playable, but not at launch. Best case, they’re playable at launch. Wait and see. Now again, “overwhelming majority” is a bit vague. So take your guess at that actual number. Idk. I doubt even Sony knows exactly.




Exhibit B

This statement lines up with what Cerny said in his talk about backwards compatibility. Mark Cerny on PS5 Backwards Compatibility:

“A better way is to incorporate any differences in the previous console’s logic into the new console’s custom chips. Meaning that even as the technology evolves, the logic and feature set that PS4 and PS4 Pro titles rely on is still available in backwards compatible modes ... ... as any roadmap advancement creates a potential divergence in logic. Running PS4 and PS4 [Pro] titles at boosted frequencies has also added complexity. The boost is truly massive this time around and some game code just can’t handle it. Testing has to be done on a title by title basis.Results are excellent though. We recently took a look at the top 100 PS4 titles, as ranked by playtime, and we’re expecting almost all of them to be playable at launch.”

- Mark Cerny, The Road to PS5 (around 27-28 mins in)

https://blog.us.playstation.com/202...ls-of-playstation-5-hardware-technical-specs/

It seems to me like that graphic with 3 modes that Cerny used, showing “PS5 Native Mode” and “PS4 Pro / PS4 Legacy Modes” are as follows:
  1. Native mode = PS5 games. Full feature set. 36 CUs, RT, SMT, etc.
  2. PS4 Pro mode = PS4 Pro patched games. Limited feature set, legacy logic. 36 CUs, no RT, etc.
  3. PS4 mode = PS4 games. Limited feature set, legacy logic, 18 CUs, no RT, etc.
Sony wants all of these 3 modes to use full clock speeds. Always. So some games can benefit from that extra power.




Exhibit C

This is very, very similar to what Digital Foundry wrote about Xbox Series X and Xbox One backwards compatibility. Digital Foundry on Xbox Series X backwards compatibility:

“It likely comes as no surprise to discover that Series X can technically run the entire Xbox One catalogue, but this time it's done with no emulation layer - it's baked in at the hardware level. Games also benefit from the full CPU and GPU clocks of Series X (Xbox One X effectively delivered 50 per cent of its overall graphics power for back-compat), meaning that the more lacklustre of those performance modes added to many Xbox One X games should hopefully lock to a silky smooth 60fps.”

- Digital Foundry, Inside Xbox Series X: the full specs

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-inside-xbox-series-x-full-specs

So Xbox is also planning on using full clocks to boost Xbox One games. This also NOT software emulation. It’s baked into the custom AMD hardware. But they’re not just putting a second chipset from the Xbox One into the new console (like how PS3 did it.) It’s built into the XSX’s new chip. This is the same approach as what Cerny said PS5 is doing.

This is likely because AMD worked with both Microsoft and Sony to ensure backwards compatibility was built into the hardware on the next-gen consoles. I doubt it’s a coincidence that both companies are mentioning using full clocks for backwards compatibility and that’s its hardware based. (Because AMD makes both of the APUs.)




Conclusion
  1. Cerny said “almost all” of the 100 titles they tested will be playable at launch and they will be using boosted frequencies.
  2. Sony said that Cerny’s top 100 example shows how well their plan to run PS4 games at boosted frequencies is going. They did NOT say its just an optional boost mode. It’s the plan, the only plan.
  3. Sony and Microsoft are using, more or less, the same approach for backwards compatibility. It’s a hardware-based boost mode that will run old games using the full frequencies of the CPU & GPU. (I assume AMD developed this for both companies and incorporated this capability into their custom APUs.)

But does this mean the PS5 COULD use lower clocks? My guess is yes it could, but probably won’t at launch. I think Sony want the PS5, at a minimum, to be an over-clocked PS4. Imagine a PS4 Pro but the GPU is running at 2.23 GHz, CPU at 3.5 GHz, etc.

Sony & Cerny say some games won’t work at full clocks. Those games won’t be playable at launch and might need to be patched by the devs to work on PS5, because the PS5 is going to always use those full clock speeds (boost mode.)

Because if PS4 games could run on PS5 at lower clock speeds, then all games would work. Cerny specifically says some games won’t work because of the boosted frequencies. Sony then said games that fail their tests will require the developers to patch the game if they want it to run on PS5.

For me, this obviously makes it clear. They are not going to use lower clocks to fix the issue, PS5 is always using full CPU/GPU frequencies. This is the same as what Xbox Series X is doing with Xbox One games.

And, of the games they’ve tested, almost all are working fine. Most games will be playable, eventually. Some games will be the same as on PS4. Some will run even better, but a few won’t work.

Jim Ryan has just said "99%" of PS4 games will be playable on PS5.
 
Last edited:

Alebrije

Member
Feb 25, 2010
9,942
1,883
1,125
PS collection has the best PS4 games so BC will be good on PS5. I guess games like Breakpoint and other crap like Fallout 76 wont work propery.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Dec 3, 2013
44,610
88,397
1,355
What are the 1% obscure Barbie Horse Adventure titles so we can concern troll bitch and moan?
 
Last edited:
  • LOL
Reactions: Elcid

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Dec 3, 2013
44,610
88,397
1,355


Pre-order cancelled!
 

Umbral

Member
May 7, 2020
1,513
2,661
390
Explain the Legacy Modes for PS4 and PS4 Pro that Cerny spoke about.

My understanding is:

  • All PS4 games will run on PS5 in legacy modes
  • Top 100 games are being tested to run in boost mode for launch
  • Any game that wants to use full power will require a patch from a developer

Edit: I really wish they would just state exactly what it is in plain english.
 
Last edited:

kyliethicc

Member
Mar 14, 2020
3,906
19,495
485
Explain the Legacy Modes for PS4 and PS4 Pro that Cerny spoke about.

My understanding is:

  • All PS4 games will run on PS5 in legacy modes
  • Top 100 games are being tested to run in boost mode for launch
  • Any game that wants to use full power will require a patch from a developer

Edit: I really wish they would just state exactly what it is in plain english.
No. I made it pretty clear in my post. All games will run in boost mode using the full clocks of the PS5.

TLOU2 will brick your PS5 when you try to play it, consider it a subversion of your expectations.
No its not. Good try.
 
Last edited:

ethomaz

is mad because DF didn't do a video on a video of a video of a video on PS5
Mar 19, 2013
37,804
34,998
1,230
38
Brazil
Explain the Legacy Modes for PS4 and PS4 Pro that Cerny spoke about.

My understanding is:

  • All PS4 games will run on PS5 in legacy modes
  • Top 100 games are being tested to run in boost mode for launch
  • Any game that wants to use full power will require a patch from a developer

Edit: I really wish they would just state exactly what it is in plain english.
That is true.

To add PS4 games released after July 8th are required to be tested to run in BC boost mode... previous released games are what Sony is testing.
99% of the games will run in BC PS4 or PS4 Pro legacy modes (99% because there is some games that requires some accessories not compatible with PS5).

The OP seems confused not Cerny/Sony.

- PS4 games not tested without Pro support will run in native PS4 BC Legacy mode.
- PS4 games not tested with Pro support will run in native PS4 Pro BC Legacy mode.
- PS4 games tested with/without Pro support will run in PS4 BC Boost Mode.

There is another group... PS4 games that received full PS5 patch so they won't run in any BC mode but like a native PS5 game.
 
Last edited:

Umbral

Member
May 7, 2020
1,513
2,661
390
No. I made it pretty clear in my post. All games will run in boost mode using the full clocks of the PS5.


No its not. Good try.
The model right now is:

PS4 Pro:
  • No patch, runs in PS4 legacy mode
  • Optional, turn on Boost Mode but may cause issues
  • Patched, takes advantage of PS4 Pro‘s power

Why would they alter the model and make it more confusing and less compatible?
 
  • Like
Reactions: ethomaz

AgentP

Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
Jun 5, 2011
7,989
2,863
1,045
What about patches for enhancements like with Destiny 2, is there a list?
 

SlimySnake

Member
Feb 5, 2013
8,684
21,675
1,200
there is no new information here. you are just extrapolating from 6 month old articles. lets wait for the official confirmation.
 

THEAP99

reposts tweets from kids about console wars
Mar 16, 2020
3,456
8,972
660
No word on how many titles at launch for backwards compatibility along with first party upgrade pricing
 

FranXico

Member
Dec 7, 2010
13,345
25,374
1,420
I always assumed that the firmware will contain a list of games for which the clocks must be reduced, and boost otherwise.
 

EverydayBeast

thinks Halo Infinite is a new graphical benchmark
Aug 18, 2017
9,293
6,505
870
Mount Olympus
www.neogaf.com
Gathering every SONY game in one console, United is what people want to see, I feel like Sony did something though for a lot of people BC is wild. I give a classic game a play through every now ‘n again..
 

kyliethicc

Member
Mar 14, 2020
3,906
19,495
485
That is true.

To add PS4 games released after July 8th are required to be tested to run in BC boost mode... previous released games are what Sony is testing.
99% of the games will run in BC PS4 or PS4 Pro legacy modes (99% because there is some games that requires some accessories not compatible with PS5).

The OP seems confused not Cerny/Sony.

- PS4 games not tested without Pro support will run in native PS4 BC Legacy mode.
- PS4 games not tested with Pro support will run in native PS4 Pro BC Legacy mode.
- PS4 games tested with/without Pro support will run in PS4 BC Boost Mode.

There is another group... PS4 games that received full PS5 patch so they won't run in any BC mode but like a native PS5 game.
[/QUOTE

I don't agree. I think you are wrong. No worries.
 
Last edited:
  • LOL
Reactions: ethomaz

ethomaz

is mad because DF didn't do a video on a video of a video of a video on PS5
Mar 19, 2013
37,804
34,998
1,230
38
Brazil
Lazy and useless post. I used quotes.

You have zero evidence of your claims.

Try again.
Cerny says himself in that video but you want believe in your made up theories... good luck.

Mod of War Mod of War can you change the OP/Title to show it is a made up theory that goes against what Sony/Cerny said... because it is just misinforming the others GAFers.

Prove it. Use quotes. I did.

Don't be lazy. Try again.
I already asked mods to fix your thread to warning the readers for misinformation.
 
Last edited:

kyliethicc

Member
Mar 14, 2020
3,906
19,495
485
Cerny says himself in that video but you want believe in your made up theories... good luck.
Prove it. Use quotes. I did.

Don't be lazy. Try again.

You're embarrassing yourself with trolling.

Nothing I have said is misinformation. You are mistaken.
 
Last edited:

makaveli60

Member
Jan 7, 2018
1,657
2,530
505
Did I dream that exclusives receiving patches to run in native PS5 mode will be free? Meaning the upgrade patches.
 

Sephimoth

Member
Mar 21, 2016
369
192
475
Maybe I missed it, but I thought they would at least have re-mentioned in yesterdays stream that the PS5 can play [most of?] your existing PS4 titles.
It'd be quite an incentive for some people to upgrade knowing their library goes with them.
 
Last edited:

LordOfChaos

Member
Mar 31, 2014
11,637
7,023
915
Edit: I really wish they would just state exactly what it is in plain english.


This. Ultimately we can theorize all we want, OORR, they could just fucking tell us.

I'm still curious if games are running in what equates to the PS4 Pro boost mode, or games with PS4 Pro patches are also boosted over that, lots of questions still.
 

Kokoloko85

Member
Sep 26, 2019
2,509
3,069
395
Will We get resolution and fps boosted for free like Gears and Ori on the Xbox Series X?
 

luca_29_bg

Member
Aug 30, 2006
2,013
157
1,355
italy
I read on twitter that tlou2 is already "ready" for ps5, this means that when i will put the disc into the console, i can play it in 4k resolution ?
 

RaZoR No1

Member
Jun 17, 2015
358
397
450
Do we have a game currently, which has some issues on a PS4 Pro if you run it in the boost mode?
At the moment I don't remember if we had a issue like that
 

tuco11

Member
Jun 16, 2004
913
105
1,485
Boost mode doesnt equal 2 sec load times correct? Game has to be optimized for that? thanks.
 

the_master

Member
Aug 27, 2007
771
999
1,285
Barcelona, Spain, Europe.
So you are telling me, that Sony made, All PS4 games, work on PS5, which means that the console is fully backwards compatible. But they haven´t made a massive announcement of this. Something that is great, good news, something that absolutely nobody could complain about, something that every PS4 user would eb excited about, something that would help PS4 users move to PS5 faster, and pay full price earlier... And they have not made any announcement like this.
But you found in some quotes hidden meaning. If you combine certain parts of all of this texts and statements, put them in a certain order and analyze them deeply, then they state that PS5 is fully bacwards compatible???
 

jshackles

Gentlemen, we can rebuild it. We have the capability to make the world's first enhanced store. Steam will be that store. Better than it was before.
Jul 2, 2013
17,102
17,201
1,325
Oregon
This. Ultimately we can theorize all we want, OORR, they could just fucking tell us.
Don't just tell us - show us! I was pretty let down by the PlayStation 5 event yesterday because I was hoping to get a glimpse at the UI and also hoping to get some clarification on BC and/or see it actually running.
 
  • Like
Reactions: makaveli60

Umbral

Member
May 7, 2020
1,513
2,661
390
I’ve posted it before, but this is part of how I came to my understanding of how it works. It really should be cut and dry from Sony at this point. The Road to PS5 was a developer presentation, so they’re excused for that.

 
Last edited:

kyliethicc

Member
Mar 14, 2020
3,906
19,495
485
So you are telling me, that Sony made, All PS4 games, work on PS5, which means that the console is fully backwards compatible. But they haven´t made a massive announcement of this. Something that is great, good news, something that absolutely nobody could complain about, something that every PS4 user would eb excited about, something that would help PS4 users move to PS5 faster, and pay full price earlier... And they have not made any announcement like this.
But you found in some quotes hidden meaning. If you combine certain parts of all of this texts and statements, put them in a certain order and analyze them deeply, then they state that PS5 is fully bacwards compatible???
No I never said its fully backwards compatible.

I precisely believe them saying some games might not run on PS5 proves thats all games will be running using full clocks. Hence it will break a few games, as Cerny said.

Many seem to think the PS5 will downclock the GPU when into legacy modes for old games.

That would be a PS4 mode with old logic, 18 CUs disabled, and GPU running at just 800 MHz. I don't think it will downclock.

I think the legacy mode Cerny mentioned on his slide is for the logic of the GPU. It will disable new parts of the GPU (used for PS5 games) like RT and the geometry engine.

As I said in my post, I suspect PS4 games and PS4 Pro games will try to be run on PS5 at full clocks. So old legacy logic, 18/36 CUs, BUT the full 2.23 GHz max GPU clock.

Others seem to think only some games will use this boosting mode. Sony has said the exact opposite. As I showed in my quotations.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: the_master

RoboFu

Member
Oct 10, 2017
2,464
3,495
480
Has anyone tried FF14 yet? I play on both my pc and ps4 pro. But yeah the load times on the pro are a little tiresome.