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[Lysandros]

you know one is 12TF and the other is 10TF right? All well, to each his own.

Meaning? What is the context there?

 

[Dibils2k]

i wonder of there is a chance they increased the HDMI2.1 bandwidth?? so we could do 120hz 4k in full chroma

if they did do that it would actually make me buy one

 

[prinz_valium]

When the PS5 released, there wasn't NAND fast enough to get 5.5GB/s with only the usual 8 channels. So they had to go with a 12 channels controller.
But now, we can get close to 7.5 GB/s on an 8 channel SSD. So Sony can easily get NAND that does 5.5GB/s, at a reasonable price.
And then, saving money on a cheaper controller.

Small correction. NAND was fast enough. Controller fast enough was the problem

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

Meaning? What is the context there?

he was insinuating that the PS5 was poorly designed because it is bigger than the XS and sometimes doesn't perform as well.

What you quoted here was probably the first of what became a whole conversation of design choices.

 

[skit_data]

When I finally get to put a ssd on my PS5 it took me ages to take out the plates. At least I will not need to do it again unless I decide to take the nvme for the PS5 Pro when/if it comes out.

I was stupid to do it right away launch week without looking at videos first. I've vacuumed the dust catchers 5-6 times (2 times I've even taken out the fan to clean it and to use compressed air to clean all the heatsinks thoroughly).
Its relatively easy once you've done it a couple of times, just gotta lift the top part of the panel facing back and pull the bottom part downwards, but they could've done it so much easier IMO because it's not exactly intuitive

 

[Ronin_7]

he was insinuating that the PS5 was poorly designed because it is bigger than the XS and sometimes doesn't perform as well.

What you quoted here was probably the first of what became a whole conversation of design choices.

The Xbox Series X is the badly designed Console here:

Much bigger SoC for worse or exactly same performance in 99% of games.

Get your facts right.

 

[Lysandros]

he was insinuating that the PS5 was poorly designed because it is bigger than the XS and sometimes doesn't perform as well.

What you quoted here was probably the first of what became a whole conversation of design choices.

And what would the narrative be when XSX doesn't perform as well (as if it never happens)?.. AW2 wave will last quite a bit apparently, at least until the next few titles which will run slightly better on the other platform. I see, thanks.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

The Xbox Series X is the badly designed Console here:

Much bigger SoC for worse or exactly same performance in 99% of games.

Get your facts right.

sigh... some people should just take the time to read the thread... what you are saying, is exactly what my point was.

And what would the narrative be when XSX doesn't perform as well (as if it never happens)?.. AW2 wave will last quite a bit apparently, at least until the next few titles which will run slightly better on the other platform. I see, thanks.

Beats me.. you should ask him, but my point was a console being bigger, doesn't mean is poorly designed. Especially when is performing on par with and usually even better than a chip that is a third bigger than it.

 

[Mr Moose]

BTW, now I am even more impressed with Series X engineers. It performs similar to the PS5 but it consumes up to 30% less power when running the same games. Without mentioning that is quieter and smaller.

Lower clocks/less heat/less power.

Original PS5 is not a pretty thing

There's an architect out there standing next to his PS5-shaped building crying because of this comment.

 

[winjer]

Small correction. NAND was fast enough. Controller fast enough was the problem

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Sony has disclosed that their SSD uses a custom controller with a 12-channel interface to the NAND flash memory. This seems to be the most important way in which their design differs from typical consumer SSDs. High-end consumer SSDs generally use 8-channel controllers and low-end drives often use 4 channels. Higher channel counts are more common for server SSDs, especially those that need to support extreme capacities; 16-channel controllers are common and 12 or 18 channel designs are not unheard of. Sony's use of a higher channel count than any recent consumer SSD means their SSD controller will be uncommonly large and expensive, but on the other hand they don't need as much performance from each channel in order to reach their 5.5GB/s goal. They could use any 64-layer or newer TLC NAND and have adequate performance, while consumer SSDs hoping to offer this level of performance or more with 8-channel controllers need to be paired with newer, faster NAND flash.

 

[Deleted member 848825]

It's quieter than the PS5 Phat? That's good to hear.

It perhaps varies from PS5 to PS5 depending when it was made. And maybe on whether its vertical or horizontal? But my March 2022 PS5, kept horizontally is literally silent even on heavy demanding games. My XSX is very quiet too, but does get a little louder when playing the likes of Metro Exodus or something very intensive. When on the exact same game on my PS5, it'll be silent. Great that the new slim is very quiet too.

 

[REDRZA MWS]

I don't hate it but I am not updating my current PS5s.

Me neither, a Pro version, maybe, have to see how much better the specs are.

 

[diffusionx]

It perhaps varies from PS5 to PS5 depending when it was made. And maybe on whether its vertical or horizontal? But my March 2022 PS5, kept horizontally is literally silent even on heavy demanding games. My XSX is very quiet too, but does get a little louder when playing the likes of Metro Exodus or something very intensive. When on the exact same game on my PS5, it'll be silent. Great that the new slim is very quiet too.

I have a launch PS5 with the original chad heatsink that is completely, totally silent. The only times I hear it is when the disc drive spins up. Disheartening to hear that perhaps some people get more noise.

 

[Three]

I have a launch PS5 with the original chad heatsink that is completely, totally silent. The only times I hear it is when the disc drive spins up. Disheartening to hear that perhaps some people get more noise.

The newer ones (phat 2021 onwards and slim) are even quieter than the launch ones. People are talking about the silicon lottery where some chips may run hotter but I don't think this makes much of a difference to decibels since fan speeds are tiered and likely within the range of the temperature variance for most climates anyway.

 

[jroc74]

I have a launch PS5 with the original chad heatsink that is completely, totally silent. The only times I hear it is when the disc drive spins up. Disheartening to hear that perhaps some people get more noise.

It does seem like a roll of the dice, but its clearly not as loud as the PS4, PS4 Pro.

Linus even said as much in his teardown, that the orig PS5 was already quiet. I equate it to Samsung phones some years ago and some Amoled screens had lots of dark splotches, some didnt. Same for PS Vitas.

 

[Elios83]

I have a launch PS5 with the original chad heatsink that is completely, totally silent. The only times I hear it is when the disc drive spins up. Disheartening to hear that perhaps some people get more noise.

Same here, launch model still completely silent after 3 years except for the disc checks in the few physical games I buy nowadays.

Anyway interesting teardown, it seems they're using the same 6nm APU with liquid metal, this basically tells me that this redesign could have happened last year when the 6nm APU was ready but they probably weren't ready or didn't feel it was the right time so they opted for the original chassis.

 

[twilo99]

Beats me.. you should ask him, but my point was a console being bigger, doesn't mean is poorly designed. Especially when is performing on par with and usually even better than a chip that is a third bigger than it.

I really don't understand how you can tell which ones performs better since there aren't any standardized tests for consoles that can measure performance ?

We are comparing them based on how they run third party software (games) which are optimized differently and obviously produce different results.

Even something like cinebench would give us a better result than comparing performance of some random game which was or wasn't optimized for a particular machine.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

 

[Panajev2001a]

Lower clocks/less heat/less power.

There's an architect out there standing next to his PS5-shaped building crying because of this comment.

I am sorry because not enough people can a.) understand this and b.) (even if they do) relate to it, but this is PS5's exterior architect/designer:



Luckily he was not consulted on the interior design and materials… GymWolf Giallo Corsa , you can gather ItalyGaf .

Edit: you can set the auto-translation to English at least…

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

I really don't understand how you can tell which ones performs better since there aren't any standardized tests for consoles that can measure performance ?

We are comparing them based on how they run third party software (games) which are optimized differently and obviously produce different results.

Even something like cinebench would give us a better result than comparing performance of some random game which was or wasn't optimized for a particular machine.

On the contrary, I think the opposite.

Consoles aren't like PCs that are multipurpose behemoths. Consoles are designed to do a very specific task. As such, taking how well they handle said task, for whatever reason, especially from third parties which should in their case be considered neutral, gives you exactly how they perform.

If one consoe, runs a game better, for whatever reason, then it means it's performing better.

If you want to be scientific about it, then take a pool of say 100 of the most popular 3rd party games, and see which console has more "wins".

And whatever reason, means everything that goes into a console, so we aren't just talking about its hardware, but also the tools that tap into that hardware.

 

[Rayderism]

Good to see the rumor that the slim didn't use liquid metal was wrong.

 

[//DEVIL//]

Good to see the rumor that the slim didn't use liquid metal was wrong.

It was you who started that rumor -_-

 

[T_T]

So, it still consumes the same amount of power? I was hoping for a much more efficient design. I will keep my original PS5.

BTW, now I am even more impressed with Series X engineers. It performs similar to the PS5 but it consumes up to 30% less power when running the same games. Without mentioning that is quieter and smaller.

The Series consoles are pretty badly engineered for the fact that we are in Year 3 and they still lose money for each console sold. PS5 was profitable in like 9 months after launch.
>performs similar to PS5
It should be 10%-20% faster than the PS5 almost universally, not run the same or even worse some times. Don't even get on the parts that PS5 does better: faster SSD, better Bluetooth, better Wi-Fi, better USB ports, actually new controller, MUCH better handling of additional NVMe space, better Bluray drive
They made this massively more expensive system where they can't cost reduce and they still didn't see the advantages of it for the cost.

 

[skit_data]

The whole "best engineered" when it comes to PS5 vs Series X always miss one of the most fundamental parts of the equation: cost to produce/subsidization per unit.

I think it's fair to say they are both pretty well engineered but I think it's pretty obvious each PS5 unit is cheaper to produce. They clearly had different goals, if Xbox intended Series X to fly off the assembly line to try to catch up with demand they would have had to find a way to eat less costs per unit. Instead they designed a less cost effective unit and are willing to eat that cost because it still serves its purpose as a halo product while Series S is where they'll put more focus on cost reductions etc.

 

[Imtjnotu]

You're better putting a heatsink on and leaving the plate off

if you put an external heat sink on....the plate has to stay off.....


this is the one i use

 

[jm89]

Whatever way I look at it, I just can't see how that gloss on the top part of the cover looks good. Maybe you need to see it in person? Idk.

 

[KungFucius]

6nm wasn't a full node jump, just a revision off 7nm

I just would have expected at least a die shrunk for as much as heatsinks have shrunk. If it actually is the same chip and the die shrink just isn't visible eyeballing it and he needed to take calipers by it (I don't think they'd fill enough any added silicon to negate the density gain, if they even added anything which isn't apparent), I guess the last phat version had enough heat savings after all, but I was just expecting a shrink.

Why? It is not absurd to think they would shrink the die without redesigning anything in the OG PS5, especially with supply issues, then once they have the new chip to begin a design process to change the PCB. PCB redesign is costly and time consuming, slotting in a die shrunk version of the exact same IC is not. Doing the migration from OG PS5 the way they did makes more sense. They will probably revise the chip and cooling again if they can save enough off the BOM longer term and assuming they are still selling these things by the millions 4 or 5 years down the road.

It seems like their process for HW revision projects is roughly:

1. Optimize the prototype design for release version
2. With release version parts in hand and any alternative components available (i.e. node shrinks), determine available margins to optimize the components further.
3. Optimize one major change for costs at a time keeping everything else the same
4. Repeat until the cost to develop the changes is not worth the return on investment ( this is either the cost savings aren't there or the staff are needed to design new products or improvements to newer products.

 

[Rocco Schiavone]

Good that they keep using liquid metal.

 

[DanielG165]

I personally don't think it matters which video game playing machine is better engineered than the other one. Both, if you watch the tear downs and engineer insights on them, are exceptionally well made and designed machines that had a lot of thought and effort put into them. Sony and Microsoft may have taken slightly different paths to creating their consoles this generation, as they always have, but the difference is that this time both companies have consoles that are very well built and engineered from the start. It doesn't matter if one is slightly "better" engineered than the other to the end consumer.

My PS5 runs games well, it cools itself well, and it stays whisper quiet. A far cry from my noisy and inefficient PS4 Pro. My Series X runs games well, cools itself well, and stays whisper quiet, whilst also having the benefit of disappearing into my display setup due to its design. A far cry from my original Xbox One that, while it stayed dead silent, was inefficiently designed due to still having the external power supply, and being as large as it was. Both companies have come a long way, and all of the current gen models feel premium.

It's cool that the PS5 Slim runs more efficiently than the big one; that's what a slim model is supposed to do. It'd be a problem if it didn't lol. If/when MS revises the Series X, expect it run more efficiently as well.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

The whole "best engineered" when it comes to PS5 vs Series X always miss one of the most fundamental parts of the equation: cost to produce/subsidization per unit.

I think it's fair to say they are both pretty well engineered but I think it's pretty obvious each PS5 unit is cheaper to produce. They clearly had different goals, if Xbox intended Series X to fly off the assembly line to try to catch up with demand they would have had to find a way to eat less costs per unit. Instead they designed a less cost effective unit and are willing to eat that cost because it still serves its purpose as a halo product while Series S is where they'll put more focus on cost reductions etc.

you don't design a less cost-effective unit. you don't design a consumer product that thrives on sales without the intention to have it fly off shelves.

MS, and their engineers, went about making a 12TF console the best way they knew how. Simple as that. that it's not cost-effective, forward-thinking, easy to scale, is on the inefficiency of their engineers, and not some design feature.

 

[OLED_Gamer]

Keeping my day 1 PS5. I like my thicc consoles.

 

[Rocco Schiavone]

Keeping my day 1 PS5. I like my thicc consoles.

The day one units are the best regarding internal build quality.

 

[skit_data]

you don't design a less cost-effective unit. you don't design a consumer product that thrives on sales without the intention to have it fly off shelves.

MS, and their engineers, went about making a 12TF console the best way they knew how. Simple as that. that it's not cost-effective, forward-thinking, easy to scale, is on the inefficiency of their engineers, and not some design feature.

I think you might misinterpreted what I meant, or I simply didn't express myself clearly.

PS5 = main purpose is being the console in every mans home, in order to even achieve that they had to make production efficient and that each console doesn't lead to losing tons of money (like PS3 phat did)

Series X = lets throw some more money on the cooling solution and get a bigger chip to get that tflop count, many of them are going into server halls anyway

 

[lucbr]

he was insinuating that the PS5 was poorly designed because it is bigger than the XS and sometimes doesn't perform as well.

What you quoted here was probably the first of what became a whole conversation of design choices.

That's not what I said. I said I am more impressed, personally, with the Series X hardware engineers. You said I was wrong, I said that I just valeu a more power efficient console.

I said that in my everyday life, what I see, when both cost the same to me, one is huge, not to say ugly, that draws a lot more energy and even makes more noise and sometimes performes worse. So, yes, for me, the SX was much better designed.

If I value one design better doesn't mean I said the other was bad.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Why? It is not absurd to think they would shrink the die without redesigning anything in the OG PS5, especially with supply issues, then once they have the new chip to begin a design process to change the PCB. PCB redesign is costly and time consuming, slotting in a die shrunk version of the exact same IC is not. Doing the migration from OG PS5 the way they did makes more sense. They will probably revise the chip and cooling again if they can save enough off the BOM longer term and assuming they are still selling these things by the millions 4 or 5 years down the road.

It seems like their process for HW revision projects is roughly:

1. Optimize the prototype design for release version
2. With release version parts in hand and any alternative components available (i.e. node shrinks), determine available margins to optimize the components further.
3. Optimize one major change for costs at a time keeping everything else the same
4. Repeat until the cost to develop the changes is not worth the return on investment ( this is either the cost savings aren't there or the staff are needed to design new products or improvements to newer products.

I think another part of the process is to allow for custom tech for the original release to meet your targets trying to follow the evolution of standardise components closely. This would then allow to replace custom solutions with more off the shelf components over time: would not be surprised if they have more than 5.5 GB/s of bandwidth and they are simply burning some bandwidth to emulate the additional I/O priority levels not in the base nVME specs for PCIE-4 drives… essentially the internal SSD now being a soldered version of the external SSD's you can buy now. It would drive costs down.

 

[//DEVIL//]

I personally don't think it matters which video game playing machine is better engineered than the other one. Both, if you watch the tear downs and engineer insights on them, are exceptionally well made and designed machines that had a lot of thought and effort put into them. Sony and Microsoft may have taken slightly different paths to creating their consoles this generation, as they always have, but the difference is that this time both companies have consoles that are very well built and engineered from the start. It doesn't matter if one is slightly "better" engineered than the other to the end consumer.

My PS5 runs games well, it cools itself well, and it stays whisper quiet. A far cry from my noisy and inefficient PS4 Pro. My Series X runs games well, cools itself well, and stays whisper quiet, whilst also having the benefit of disappearing into my display setup due to its design. A far cry from my original Xbox One that, while it stayed dead silent, was inefficiently designed due to still having the external power supply, and being as large as it was. Both companies have come a long way, and all of the current gen models feel premium.

It's cool that the PS5 Slim runs more efficiently than the big one; that's what a slim model is supposed to do. It'd be a problem if it didn't lol. If/when MS revises the Series X, expect it run more efficiently as well.

It doesn't run any more efficiently than the current 1205 model in the market.

If anything , judging by LTT, because of the way the system is designed, it's pushing more air from one size of system while the fat ps5 push it around all the back making the ps5 slim louder from that area ( especially close to the blue ray drive are )

The ps5 slim uses the same nod and psu as ps5 1205. Just with smaller form factor.
.that form factor is subjective . Some people do like it some don't . I personally don't like it at all.

 

[DavJay]

I don't care what anyone says. The slim is so much better than original. Still bad but I don't want to puke looking at it like the original

 

[Rob_27]

Why can't they just pop out those Dev consoles. They looked cool.

 

[Elios83]

An other teardown, it seems we'll see a lot of these videos next week from various influencers.

 

[jasondefaoite]

Why can't they just pop out those Dev consoles. They looked cool.

Saving it for the pro form factor.

 

[Codes 208]

Thats a fair size difference. Like going from the old dvr-looking xbox one to the xbox one s

I don't hate it but I am not updating my current PS5s.

I mean, why would you? Why would anyone? Its just a revision. This is a fair option for someone like me who's been without a ps5 for awhile but otherwise lol no.

I mean how many people "upgraded" from the phat ps4 to the slim?

 

[LordOfChaos]

6nm took the PS5 from 320mm2 to ~250mm2. That is a sizeable reduction. And some of us pointed out in some other thread that there were already significant size reductions made in the latest version of the PS5 phat, this seems like they just made a smaller casing while keeping everything else the same.

If anyone asks me, I think this is what the PS5 should have been at launch.

I guess that's it, the last phat with the GDDR chip reductions and mild die shrink together was already ready to be smaller, it was just waiting on a motherboard and chassis redesign


But if new Slim is the same chip and power wise as the last Phat, I'd like to see a fan acoustics comparison between them

 

[nosoynadie22]

That's not what I said. I said I am more impressed, personally, with the Series X hardware engineers. You said I was wrong, I said that I just valeu a more power efficient console.

I said that in my everyday life, what I see, when both cost the same to me, one is huge, not to say ugly, that draws a lot more energy and even makes more noise and sometimes performes worse. So, yes, for me, the SX was much better designed.

If I value one design better doesn't mean I said the other was bad.

SX is beautiful, well-designed hardware, there's no doubt about that, the problem is how much it costs Microsoft to make it.

If it is true that Microsoft loses $200 for every SX sold and PS5 is already profitable for Sony... then Sony's engineers did a better job because they obtained the same result for a lower cost.

You can praise SX for being efficient and well-designed hardware, but Sony's hardware engineers are better at their job

 

[Rocco Schiavone]

An other teardown, it seems we'll see a lot of these videos next week from various influencers.

Those clowns can tear down as much as they want. The only relevant video will be from Gamers Nexus.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

I guess that's it, the last phat with the GDDR chip reductions and mild die shrink together was already ready to be smaller, it was just waiting on a motherboard and chassis redesign


But if new Slim is the same chip and power wise as the last Phat, I'd like to see a fan acoustics comparison between them

from videos so far, it seems identical too. they are using a similarly sized fan after all and similar airflow dynamics too. Een e ea sin is inda simiaar. where the size reductions happened, are in the PSU, PCB, ODD, and SSD (or at least the amount of space it's taking).

 

[lucbr]

SX is beautiful, well-designed hardware, there's no doubt about that, the problem is how much it costs Microsoft to make it.

If it is true that Microsoft loses $200 for every SX sold and PS5 is already profitable for Sony... then Sony's engineers did a better job because they obtained the same result for a lower cost.

You can praise SX for being efficient and well-designed hardware, but Sony's hardware engineers are better at their job

Do we know by fact that MS lose that amount of money if any? And how much Sony gain? We don't know for sure.

But again, that's not what I as a costumer see and care when I use both of them and paid the same for them. When I play a game on SX, using less power and with no noise, and looking at that beautiful design, I can't praise Series X engineers enough. So, for me, MS engineers did a better job.

To be honest, seeing the PS5 slim consuming the same amount of power (if those measures in the video are correct) and, for my taste, an uglier design, I, a consumer who wanted a prettier and less hungry console, got even more disappointed with Sony engineers. It was such a bummer. Will keep my PS5 until the pro.

 

[Paulxo87]

I have a launch PS5 with the original chad heatsink that is completely, totally silent. The only times I hear it is when the disc drive spins up. Disheartening to hear that perhaps some people get more noise.

Same. My launch unit is also completely silent. More interesting was the fact that mine also had no dust inside of it when I cracked it open to stick a 2TB 990PRO in it last month.. Just a very thin coating on the fan that wiped away with a finger.

 

[rofif]

An other teardown, it seems we'll see a lot of these videos next week from various influencers.

fucking 250$ for a fucking backpack wtf
9:00
And they have the balls to complain about 30$ stand and disc drive price

 

[Panajev2001a]

Do we know by fact that MS lose that amount of money if any? And how much Sony gain? We don't know for sure.

But again, that's not what I as a costumer see and care when I use both of them and paid the same for them. When I play a game on SX, using less power and with no noise, and looking at that beautiful design, I can't praise Series X engineers enough. So, for me, MS engineers did a better job.

To be honest, seeing the PS5 slim consuming the same amount of power (if those measures in the video are correct) and, for my taste, an uglier design, I, a consumer who wanted a prettier and less hungry console, got even more disappointed with Sony engineers. It was such a bummer. Will keep my PS5 until the pro.

You should care if you are assessing engineering prowess (PS5 is super ugly, but to call XSX beautiful… well… yikes…).
Making a bit extreme example, it is like comparing two chefs where one was buying Tesco Essential / blue stripe stuff vs someone that could ship anywhere and at whatever budget he wanted…

 

[Panajev2001a]

Thats a fair size difference. Like going from the old dvr-looking xbox one to the xbox one s

I mean, why would you? Why would anyone? Its just a revision. This is a fair option for someone like me who's been without a ps5 for awhile but otherwise lol no.

I mean how many people "upgraded" from the phat ps4 to the slim?

I am tempted… as it is 1.3 Kg lighter than my launch unit and smaller too.