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QTEs are NOT cinematic

J

JumpJeff84

Member
Developers put QTEs in their games because it's an easy way to show elaborately directed action sequences without having to worry about the difficulties in having them be player-controlled.

These tend to appear in 'cinematic' games for the most part, but the irony is that one element of QTE's is decidedly uncinematic and ends up having the exact opposite effect of what the developers intend. The element I'm referring to is on-screen button prompts. When a game is made with a cinematic presentation in mind, having a disembodied 'Triangle' or 'circle' button appear on screen next right in the middle of an action scene is completely immersion-breaking and reminds the player that yes, this is a game.

The most egregious examples of this are David Cage games, and the upcoming The Order: 1886. With The Order, the devs have stated time and time again that they're going for a 'filmic' look, and to make a game that resembles a movie. They've gone so far as to letterbox the game to simulate a movie. Yet this is what happens as you play:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOJ6rD-1DMc

I dunno, I don't get it. It's not the lack of interactivity that bugs me as much as it is the buttons on-screen. It looks stupid and tacky, and is the complete opposite of 'cinematic'. It's about as gamey as it gets. I'm not trying to shit on The Order- for all I know it'll be the Best Game Ever, but it's just a recent example that comes to mind.

So what do you think? Am I wrong? Right? Is there a way to do QTEs that isn't so immersion breaking? Are there better ways to make games cinematic that don't involve QTEs?
 
Is there a way to do QTEs that isn't so immersion breaking?
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endless-punches-asura-s-wrath-o.gif


Asura's Wrath along with a lot of other CyberConnect2 titles are the only games that I believe do QTEs right. If you're going to have them, make those scenarios fucking cool.

I'm more immersed in the QTEs Asura's Wrath delivered than literally any other game with the damn things, because Asura's Wrath is fucking cool.
 
I think you might be overreacting a bit. Yeah the button prompts are "gamey" but they're just one of those standards that you have to move past. Every game has some sort of button prompts.

QTE's are used to provide some degree of interactivity with cutscenes, things that you don't usually interact with.

Also they aren't inherently bad either. Different people may not like them, but other people do. Its subjective, not an objective knock against a game.
 
Whoompthereitis said:
The most egregious examples of this are David Cage games, and the upcoming The Order: 1886. With The Order, the devs have stated time and time again that they're going for a 'filmic' look, and to make a game that resembles a movie. They've gone so far as to letterbox the game to simulate a movie. Yet this is what happens as you play:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOJ6rD-1DMc
Click to expand...

Actually, Beyond Two Souls, as much as I hate the game, has a couple of pretty good QTEs, mainly because of the absence of on-screen button display.
 
loaf of bread said:
I think you might be overreacting a bit. Yeah the button prompts are "gamey" but they're just one of those standards that you have to move past. Every game has some sort of button prompts.

QTE's are used to provide some degree of interactivity with cutscenes, things that you don't usually interact with.

Also they aren't inherently bad either. Different people may not like them, but other people do. Its subjective, not an objective knock against a game.
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Yeah but my point is that when used in games that are striving for a cinematic presentation above all else, they seem to actually go against said goal of the creators.
 
The best way to do this is to have actual gameplay instead of resorting to cutscenes, of course. Seeing my character do things in cutscenes that I can't do normally in gameplay, always gets me. I'm still of the opinion that "hands off" time in any gameplay should be kept to a minimum.
 
But how else are we supposed to make the player feel like they accomplished something without doing something so crazy as actually designing a fun game that challenges somebody?
 
Currently playing The Witcher 2 for the first time and I'm enjoying the QTE fist fights. Oddly enough, they're much more involved than TW1's brawls that, despite having movesets, combos, and whole perks wasted on it, really just boiled down to "block, hit, block, hit, block, hit" (...) There was never any reason to deviate from that pattern.
 
I hated QTEs in heavy rain (and everything else tbh), but in Beyond two souls they perfected intuitive QTEs with it's "battle" system based on directions that you can actually read and can input commands without button prompts on screen. I loved it so much, I want them to implement it again, because it really is cool when character just moves where you want him without any hud or prompts, and does so without breaking cinematic feel of it all, just obeys commands without any block from the game.
 
Jisgsaw said:
Actually, Beyond Two Souls, as much as I hate the game, has a couple of pretty good QTEs, mainly because of the absence of on-screen button display.
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I actually haven't tried Beyond:Two Souls. I was just basing my assumption on Heavy Rain. How do they circumvent the issue in Beyond?
 
Silky said:
endless-punches-asura-s-wrath-o.gif


Asura's Wrath along with a lot of other CyberConnect2 titles are the only games that I believe do QTEs right. If you're going to have them, make those scenarios fucking cool.

I'm more immersed in the QTEs Asura's Wrath delivered than literally any other game with the damn things, because Asura's Wrath is fucking cool.
Click to expand...

Pretty much this.

No-one who has played Asura's Wrath would claim QTE's aren't cinematic.
 
what did you think about Ryse's color flashing, or D4's use of kinect QTE? I think you're overthinking things. there are so many other things that betray a developers filmic ambititions with regards to games. I'd put QTE very low down on the list.
 
I agree that they aren't necessarily needed to make a game cinematic, but the use of QTE's in GOW (for example) actually make the finishing moves look awesome and more "cinematic", with its great use of camera.

Anyway, I don't have issues with QTE's in general.
 
gugeifer said:
I hated QTEs in heavy rain (and everything else tbh), but in Beyond two souls they perfected intuitive QTEs with it's "battle" system based on directions that you can actually read and can input commands without button prompts on screen. I loved it so much, I want them to implement it again, because it really is cool when character just moves where you want him without any hud or prompts, and does so without breaking cinematic feel of it all, just obeys commands without any block from the game.
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Cool, this almost makes me wanna give Beyond a look, even though Cage's storytelling usually makes me cringe.

Again, I'm not saying QTEs have to disappear completely, I just wanna get the damn glowing buttons off the screen.
 
Whoompthereitis said:
Cool, this almost makes me wanna give Beyond a look, even though Cage's storytelling usually makes me cringe.

Again, I'm not saying QTEs have to disappear completely, I just wanna get the damn glowing buttons off the screen.
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The alternative really is just replacing them with cut scenes. QTE are the pathetic attempt at making the player feel like they are in control of the amazing things characters can do in cut scenes that they can't do when you are actually in control.
 
Whoompthereitis said:
Yeah but my point is that when used in games that are striving for a cinematic presentation above all else, they seem to actually go against said goal of the creators.
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Having "cinematic" gameplay like that is an issue in itself. Are you making a game, or a movie? QTEs are an example of the devs trying to make amends with people like me who want gameplay, but still providing the "cinematic" experience to people who don't care they are watching a movie, and not actually playing something.

Overall, that is a hard one to fix.
 
I'm never one to say that "This thing should never be in a game ever!" Because that's stupid to me. This goes for cutscenes, silent protags, tutorials, etc. QTEs are no different. All of these things just need to be handled well. And they have, actually.

For instance, I just started playing The Wolf Among Us. That games prologue features a pretty unique use of the QTE. Bigby is being strangled, and the QTE involves mashing the A button to break free. Initially it's easy. However, you start to lose consciousness (and your thumb is bitten) so it becomes very difficult to continue. Eventually, you start to shift into The Wolf, and then the QTE becomes REAL easy. It was a clever way to show off his struggle with his true form.

Similarly, the famous Microwave Tunnel scene from MGS4. That game used a similar QTE to create a really effective scene. It's also a great manipulator of player psychology, considering the fact that you hardly need to mash in that QTE.

Hell, the QTEs were one of the best features of RE4. The fact that you had to be prepared for anything, even in cutscenes, really got over the tense oppressive... feel of that game really well.

Still, I've yet to see a game use a QTE in a subtler fashion effectively. However, I'm sure it's possible (or already been done).
 
Nothing pisses me off more than when a cutscene begins, and I put the controller to sit back and enjoy the cinematic, only to see a button prompt half way through. I'm then fumbling for the controller, trying to smash the button before the prompt goes away, and then I can't enjoy the rest of the cutscene as I'm on edge waiting for the next prompt. It's so dumb.
 
Whoompthereitis said:
I actually haven't tried Beyond:Two Souls. I was just basing my assumption on Heavy Rain. How do they circumvent the issue in Beyond?
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In the QTEs were you have to move, the action stops for a bit (a bit too long for my taste), and you have to move the joystick in the appropriate direction.

But I agree with Razzorn: QTEs are, for the most part, just lazy developers who don't want to make a good gameplay.
 
Whoompthereitis said:
Cool, this almost makes me wanna give Beyond a look, even though Cage's storytelling usually makes me cringe.

Again, I'm not saying QTEs have to disappear completely, I just wanna get the damn glowing buttons off the screen.
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I agree. I do think that they can be cinematic when done well, for the most part though I'm looking at the prompts rather than what's happening on screen. Often because the prompts are right in the center of the screen in the most annoying way. I think they're useful for providing some sense of player agency during cutscenes, but more often they're just frustrating, useless or just take me right out of the experience.
 
If they wanted to just make it cinematic, they would make a simple cut-scene. QTEs have another purpose. Either to keep you on edge and focused, or to make you feel more involved, or have the player do something that traditional control scheme cannot render.

It's not about being cinematic - which by definition is a passive activity.

Whoompthereitis said:
Again, I'm not saying QTEs have to disappear completely, I just wanna get the damn glowing buttons off the screen.
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In The Order's video you present (which BTW, isn't a traditional QTE, but a branching QTE, which aim is to add the concept of choice in cut-scene - something that is absolutely not cinematic), there is no "glowing buttons".
 
VoltySquirrel said:
Similarly, the famous Microwave Tunnel scene from MGS4. That game used a similar QTE to create a really effective scene. It's also a great manipulator of player psychology, considering the fact that you hardly need to mash in that QTE.

Hell, the QTEs were one of the best features of RE4. The fact that you had to be prepared for anything, even in cutscenes, really got over the tense oppressive... feel of that game really well.
Click to expand...

Both good examples, proving that QTE's in moderation can be effective.
 
Are we now reducing QTEs to a simple button press? Was it a QTE when I rapidly pressed square to open a door in TLOU? Was it a QTE when I pressed square to move a beam? Was it a QTE when I shived a door?

If a reviewer wants to give it a low score regardless of how good it is then they'll have absolutely no problem doing it because it seems as if many have already made their minds up. I think it's going to be another Driveclub. Forum users will post how fantastic it is while reviewers tell people how average it is.
 
MYeager said:
I agree. I do think that they can be cinematic when done well, for the most part though I'm looking at the prompts rather than what's happening on screen. Often because the prompts are right in the center of the screen in the most annoying way. I think they're useful for providing some sense of player agency during cutscenes, but more often they're just frustrating, useless or just take me right out of the experience.
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Yeah that's pretty much how I feel.

I think in games like Wolf Among Us and Asura's Wrath they tend not to annoy me as much because of the cartoon-like presentation of the game worlds. In stuff like The Order or Heavy Rain, the worlds are very realistic-looking by design, and so the button prompts really seem out of place.
 
Beyond: Two Sould did this very well I think. Sometimes it even gave the feeling you were really in control, despite being an interactive film. Telltale could learn a thing or two from QD. I was often at the tip of my seat. And yes, this way of interacting allows for focus on other elements in regards of visuals, action events and storytelling. In games like GoW I like them too. It really depends on how smooth the transitions are and how they are used in general though. Games that do it terribly were Heavenly Sword, Bayonetta and Resident Evil 4/5/6..
 
I don't hate limited or well placed QTE's, but I still prefer the good old "sit back and wipe the sweat from your controller" cinematic.

I think I like Platinum's use of QTE across their games. To me a title like theirs is an experience as well as a game and, the correct QTE use keeps the experience high and sacrifices no gameplay.
 
I found W101's QTEs to be super cinematic. Not to mention super badass and just fucking awesome. Final QTE is one of my favorite moments in gaming.

As for other games, I think what really kills the cinematic, or "filmic," if you will, feel is that you die two or three times every time one shows up. Worse than button prompts on the screen, I have seen very few movies where the characters on screen fuck up split-second ordeals several times in a row before moving on as if nothing happened. Not only does it destroy immersion (even for me, who doesn't care that much about immersion) but it is just not fun.
 
I think they're cinematic.

They're just boring and I never have fun doing them.

Only one that I enjoyed was the Krauser fight with the wiimote.
 
flkraven said:
Nothing pisses me off more than when a cutscene begins, and I put the controller to sit back and enjoy the cinematic, only to see a button prompt half way through. I'm then fumbling for the controller, trying to smash the button before the prompt goes away, and then I can't enjoy the rest of the cutscene as I'm on edge waiting for the next prompt. It's so dumb.
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With the growing use of quicktime events over the past 2 generations, I rarely feel comfortable laxing my grip on the controller as cut scenes or non-gameplay moments as it sucks to fail a QTE for many reasons.


One of the more notable cases of missing QTE that came out of nowhere (albeit they are completely optional) are from (not sure which ones) Assassin Creed Ezio games...
 
They are different things, but they are still stuff I'd rather not have in games. You can tell a story without transforming your game in a movie.
 
If a game establishes and makes clear that every seemingly non-interactive cutscene is in fact a QTE, gamers will get accustomed to it eventually...for THAT game. Even without button prompts...eventually. As long as the QTEs in this game use the same buttons as non QTE combat.

For most gamers (especially here), I would imagine it wouldn't take more than a single instance to learn how the game functions. Suddenly the camera angle switches to a more "cinematic" one, and a car comes barreling towards our character. Some people might instinctively press to the side or jump, which will result in a successful dodge maneuver. Some people might not, and end up seeing their character get run over. However, both parties will realize "oh, that was a QTE." They then learn THIS particular game has QTEs without button prompts, and will be more alert the next time something that looks like a cutscene starts. The first few QTEs will be fairly simple, maybe only require one button, but they can get harder and more intricate as the game goes along.

I generally prefer a game without any QTEs to be honest, but if a game is to try to make QTEs not as immersion breaking, they need to establish that early on and STICK TO IT.
 
GribbleGrunger said:
Are we now reducing QTEs to a simple button press? Was it a QTE when I rapidly pressed square to open a door in TLOU? Was it a QTE when I pressed square to move a beam? Was it a QTE when I shived a door?
Click to expand...

Why did you waste a perfectly good shiv on a door?

In TLOU they actually didn't bother me too much, and I'm not sure why. I guess because the button prompts were fairly subtle in how they appeared on screen, and the rest of the game was so amazing.
 
Going for a cinematic presentation involves a lot of situationally specific interactions, which means at the very least a "context action" button. However this minimalistic approach kind of flies in the face of the purpose of such scenarios - basically why have all these different reasons/functions for input when they boil down at the player's end to just pressing the same single button to trigger or pass them?

In such circumstances, extending the input required is a reasonable response in order to make the action situationally relevent and circumstantially differentiated. This isn't strictly speaking a QTE, as there needs to be time imperative to justify the Q for quick, but most lay-people rarely factor this into their evaluation and simply lump all extended context dependent input together.
 
jtb said:
QTEs are garbage. either give me a dialogue tree or just let me watch the fucking cutscene.
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I honestly wish I shouldn't have to encounter QTEs. I don't play cinematic games, so what exactly are they doing in stuff like character action games? :( They're so lazy, not fun and detrimental to my enjoyment of a game.
 
Bayonetta 1,2 and The Wonderful 101 execute them well, they're delicately placed and have just the right amount of feedback to make them feel natural, awesome, and fun to bash through.
 
I hate QTE's personally, but the immersion isn't necessarily broken if you know your controller well.
 
I don't relate QTE to cinematic, but rather an easy way to "engage" player during certain cutscenes or action sequences. When it's done right like Asura Wrath or MGR, it adds a mindless fun factor to it.

Cinematic would be like Uncharted where you have full control of Nathan doing shit in CGI like motion and graphics.
 
CyberConnect2 are pretty much the undisputed kings of QTEs, but I generally don't mind them. I find the rage some people have against them in principle to be absolutely hilarious.
 
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