• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Racism, Xenophobia and the persistent latent issues of white male colonization

Status
Not open for further replies.

Merino

Member
Was listening to The American Life podcast 600 (Will I Know Anyone at This Party?) and despite everything that has happened lately still found myself shocked at the outward xenophobia and latent racism that 'regular and kind' Minnesotan people displayed in their discussion on Somalian immigration. Most shockingly maybe when the people present at the town hall were presented with one of the most logical and beautiful statements I've ever heard by representative Tom Emmer and yet they still could not grasp a wider, less selfish perspective;

Tom Emmer: "I'm going to say it out loud. When you move to a community, as long as you are here legally, I am very sorry but you do not get slam the gate behind you and say nobody else is welcome. That is not how this country works."

Now racism and xenophobia are not new things, the 'us against them' attitude is culturally as old as human societies itself. For me personally it seemed for a while that after the horrors of WWII, the end of racial segregation through the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the progressive purple period of the 90's in the Netherlands, the west was trying to tackle and get beyond the issues of racism and xenophobia. There were always many signs on the wall that we hadn't even nearly come to solving these issues but it seemed like the world was trying to move forwards somehow. In Holland this started to change around 2002 with increasing fear of the Islam becoming a political issue. Yet it's only been in the past few years that things have really come to an international rise with blatant racism and xenophobia coming out of the shadows into the foreground. In my own country the Netherlands this really started coming to the fore clearly starting with the 2011 protests against our Zwarte Piet blackface tradition. I'm taking this point in time over earlier political happenings such as the rise of Pim Fortuyn (a murdered politician that advocated a stop to the Islamization of the Netherlands) in 2001 and the subsequent rise of Geert Wilders (who has been one of the most outspoken politicians internationally against the Islam and Islamic immigration) from 2004 onward because of the impact of the societal debate.

Despite the Netherlands having been in a serious political debate around the issue Islamic migration with more and more voters showing a willingness to vote for a xenophobic and Islamophobic since 2002 it was only really in 2011 through the discussion around the ethics of our black face traditions that the latent racism and xenophobia of the autochthonous white population started becoming more crystallized and more publicly vocalized across the entire country. This was happening on both sides, anti-Zwarte Piet protesters started being very vocal in calling out the dutch population to their latent racism while, ironically, the pro-Zwarte Piet people started expressing more vocally their insensitivity to racism and angst against multicultural change. The discussion led over the years to a stronger and harder divide between both sides of the debate to the point where people started to become unwilling to even discuss it any further since no side was willing to give in and it started to separate friends from friends and neighbors from neighbors. I experienced this myself first hand at my last work place where I was the only person critical of the black face tradition yet I was not appreciated to vocalize my criticism as people didn't want the debate to ruin the atmosphere at work and when I would speak up I would have the entire office pounding down on me for my opinions in a way that did actually ruin the atmosphere at work. I wasn't even calling people out for being racist or xenophobic, I was simply trying to adres certain historically cultural racist elements of society but that itself was already too sensitive a subject.

Then 2015/2016 came and Brexit happened in the UK and Trump happened in the US. Both political movements that focus on anti-migration (of non-whites) and Islamophobia (thus racist and xenophobic by nature) which very much mirror what has been happening in the Netherlands over the past decade. Coincidentally or not, and I'm not trying to Godwin here, all three leading figures of these movements are blond haired, blue eyed, white people (Geert Wilders, Boris Johnson, Donald Trump). And these movements are taking, if not a majority (Brexit) almost a majority (Trump, Wilders) of the popular vote in these countries. People are getting more and more comfortable it seems with publicly stating their racist and xenophobic tendencies yet meanwhile get also more and more upset when called out for being racist or xenophobic. In the Zwarte Piet discussion in Holland this became a big part of the whole debate, that according to the cultural majority it was not justified to call out the whole population for their latent persistent cultural issues around racism which were born out of a colonization period when white males took over the world. Yet that is clearly still where we are at the moment and the electoral map of the 2016 USA vote shows very clearly that it was still up to white men Trump would be elected by a landslide.

As an anthropologist I've been confronted in my academical studies time and time again with the consequences of the historical period of European, white male, colonization of the non-western world. For many centuries the white men where the most powerful cultural group on the entire planet, and they made no excuse or secret in wanting to subjugate and assimilate any other society to the western (judeo-christian) cultural ways. Naturally this created resistance from local cultures, and nowhere has that resistance been as strong as within the Islamic world. Yet what has been so harrowing is the unwillingness of the western, while male dominated society, to relinquish this colonial power they established and share in a true multicultural world view. The eurocentric way of viewing (in an automatic, latent, subconscious manner) is still very strongly established in western cultures, which has become so poignant in the dutch black face debate where people fail to see beyond their own established traditions and sense of cultural exceptionalism that overrides their ability to see things in a more global multicultural humanist point of view.

Are we seeing the last stand of the white man desperately trying to defend it's colonial empire against the ever continuing process of cultural globalization? Though it seems that unlike in Britain the fear and xenophobia won't win out tomorrow for Trump, we are still talking about roughly over 40% of the population in America and many European countries that have become more united and vocal than ever before trying to protect the western empire against the dangerous forces from outside. Reverting increasingly to a colonial eurocentric way of dealing with the modern world, rather than a progressive humanistic look at uniting cultures and sharing in the globalized world.

Can we even talk about latent racism and xenophobia in large chunks of western culture? Is it even something that can be overcome in a culture, since lets be fair China's 1,4 billion population has issues with the exact same things also. Let me be the first to admit that I have had to overcome innate cultural racist and xenophobic world views and to this day, despite a progressive social science academic education and being a member on this progressive forum for a long time, I still have to confront myself with subconscious blindspots. It wasn't until the protests on the black face tradition of Zwarte Piet that I understood myself that I have had a blind spot to this form of cultural insensitivity for my entire life. Maybe I can't expect others to live up to the same level of cultural self criticism in confronting habitual elements of society.

Thoughts anyone?

https%3A%2F%2Fblueprint-api-production.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fuploads%2Fcard%2Fimage%2F126525%2Ftrump-johnson-geert.jpg
 

G.ZZZ

Member
What exactly is latent when the majority of white males are openly racist?

This is not something that will ever be solved unless we adopt an asian attitude toward immigration (aka immigration is not allowed at all). As long as people will exist, they will scream and kick against foreigners as it human nature.
 

Risible

Member
What exactly is latent when the majority of white males are openly racist?

This is not something that will ever be solved unless we adopt an asian attitude toward immigration (aka immigration is not allowed at all). As long as people will exist, they will scream and kick against foreigners as it human nature.

Got some receipts for that?
 
I'm ignorant when it comes to the science, but has it been demonstrated we have some biological predisposition to be paranoid/fearful of those that look/behave differently? I realize it would be kind of hard to show since even very young children could glean these biases from their parents.

Whaever portion of it is nature and nurture, it seems to be pervasive enough in our culture that it must be constantly opposed, suppressed, and overcome, both on a personal and on a societal level.

I think it's a step forward that most people do not wish to be racist and view it as something immoral. They just need to expand their definitions and become more aware of their biases.
 

Guevara

Member
What exactly is latent when the majority of white males are openly racist?

This is not something that will ever be solved unless we adopt an asian attitude toward immigration (aka immigration is not allowed at all). As long as people will exist, they will scream and kick against foreigners as it human nature.

ever heard of "Japan"
 

Dio

Banned
I'm ignorant when it comes to the science, but has it been demonstrated we have some biological predisposition to be paranoid/fearful of those that look/behave differently? I realize it would be kind of hard to show since even very young children could glean these biases from their parents.

Whaever portion of it is nature and nurture, it seems to be pervasive enough in our culture that it must be constantly opposed, suppressed, and overcome, both on a personal and on a societal level.

I think it's a step forward that most people do not wish to be racist and view it as something immoral. They just need to expand their definitions and become more aware of their biases.

I also mentioned in another thread that the general Christian view of the world is that darkness is associated with evil, the Devil, and things to be afraid of, and that light is the light of God, pure, good, and warmth. In that sense, there has to be at least some connection (and I've heard it espoused by racists) to tie people's darker skin with evil in some way - that those with lighter skin are inherently somehow more 'pure.'

Not every culture does this, but Christianity is pretty pervasive in modern times.
 
What exactly is latent when the majority of white males are openly racist?

This is not something that will ever be solved unless we adopt an asian attitude toward immigration (aka immigration is not allowed at all). As long as people will exist, they will scream and kick against foreigners as it human nature.

So you think the best way to solve xenophobia and racism is adopting a policy that is by nature the product of extreme xenophobia?
 
I'm ignorant when it comes to the science, but has it been demonstrated we have some biological predisposition to be paranoid/fearful of those that look/behave differently? I realize it would be kind of hard to show since even very young children could glean these biases from their parents.

Whaever portion of it is nature and nurture, it seems to be pervasive enough in our culture that it must be constantly opposed, suppressed, and overcome, both on a personal and on a societal level.

I think it's a step forward that most people do not wish to be racist and view it as something immoral. They just need to expand their definitions and become more aware of their biases.

Behave maybe, but not look. At least not historically. Racial discrimination seems to be a relatively new phenomenon, beginning in the 1400s with the European colonialism and the slave trade of American Indians and Africans. Evidence points to racism being the result of the slave trade, justifying a horrific practice, rather than the cause of it. There's a book Before Color Prejudice by Frank Snowden that illustrates the lack of colorism throughout ancient history.
 

Merino

Member
Wasn't brexit more about anti-migration of eastern europeans (so whites hating whites)?
Still counts as racism (slavic) and xenophobia. But I remember to be a wider anti-migration sentiment of non-western people at large as well.

But yes maybe should clarify that by saying white male I meant western European white male (and the American offspring of that).
 

mantidor

Member
Isn't "European" and "white male dominated" kind of redundant? I personally prefer to call it European colonization, it isn't as reductive, specially because "whiteness" is mostly an US construct, Europeans had the Nazis and the "Arian" race but it really doesn't even compare.
 
I'm ignorant when it comes to the science, but has it been demonstrated we have some biological predisposition to be paranoid/fearful of those that look/behave differently?

It's not scientific, but for most of human history, people showing up who didn't look like you meant shit was about to go down.
 

Toxi

Banned
I'm ignorant when it comes to the science, but has it been demonstrated we have some biological predisposition to be paranoid/fearful of those that look/behave differently? I realize it would be kind of hard to show since even very young children could glean these biases from their parents.
IIRC, it's assumed there are some biological factors, but it's not known what those biological factors are or what effect they have.

There is also a strong environmental influence on this behavior.
 
What exactly is latent when the majority of white males are openly racist?

This is not something that will ever be solved unless we adopt an asian attitude toward immigration (aka immigration is not allowed at all). As long as people will exist, they will scream and kick against foreigners as it human nature.

Wait, really? They don't allow immigration at all throughout asia? This sounds...unlikely to me?
 

Imm0rt4l

Member
I attended school in the town that episode was centered on, st. cloud. I'm black, and the ways in which people aren't willing to acknowledge their racism is why I kept a lot of white folks there at arms length. Even my seemingly well meaning white friends would disappoint me.
 

G.ZZZ

Member
So you think the best way to solve xenophobia and racism is adopting a policy that is by nature the product of extreme xenophobia?

There is nothing inherently evil with having closed borders. From my point of view the US is far more racist and dangerous to the world with its foreign policy and open attitude to immigration than some hypotetical country with closed borders but that doesn't mass murder and keep foreign nations of non white people poor for their own interests.

It's easy to forget that when you live essentially in an island unreachable by the poorest and desperates
 
Assuming the majority of white people are racist is ridiculous.

Racism persists from and toward any race just in different varieties.
 
I'm ignorant when it comes to the science, but has it been demonstrated we have some biological predisposition to be paranoid/fearful of those that look/behave differently? I realize it would be kind of hard to show since even very young children could glean these biases from their parents.
Yes, because humans evolved in small tribes and rarely encountered people who looked differently than them.

We're also trained to avoid and distrust different looking people, people who may look sick/deformed. These are all survival mechanisms. Members of an outgroup were more likely to carry illnesses that the ingroup had not experienced and didn't have immunity to.

Men also are biologically predisposed to want to dominate the outgroup because it increases their sexual fitness. Overtaking an outgroup would give them more females to mate with. Females, on the other hand, fear outgroup men because of sexual coercion.
 
Can't really speak about the UK or US since I don't live there. But the rise of the far right (well, if you want to call Wilders that, dude is a leftist on pretty much all economic policy and in line with the Socialist Party, but whatever) can be easily explained I think.

It is a combination of economics (low wage growth, cut in public services), social clashes (changing neighborhoods due to immigration) and a political system that has ignored the population for too long. Then people flee to the more extreme parties because they find a voice there. Couple that with an environment where for a long time every comment against immigration or problems within other cultures were branded as being racist, and after a while that word loses meaning, creating a path for real racists to find a platform for their thoughts.
 

Toxi

Banned
Yes, because humans evolved in small tribes and rarely encountered people who looked differently than them.

We're also trained to avoid and distrust different looking people, people who may look sick/deformed. These are all survival mechanisms. Members of an outgroup were more likely to carry illnesses that the ingroup had not experienced and didn't have immunity to.

Men also are biologically predisposed to want to dominate the outgroup because it increases their sexual fitness. Overtaking an outgroup would give them more females to mate with. Females, on the other hand, fear outgroup men because of sexual coercion.
Careful; you're claiming strong ultimate causal explanations for human behavior even though it's basically all speculation.
 
All this talk of people being 'genetically predisposed' to being wary and defensive against people who look different.... scientifically is proven (from what I have read in the past)

However.... we aren't animals. We aren't dictated by our instincts. We have knowledge and reasoning.

Anyone that is racist effectively has a primitive mind. Racism is a choice when we have as much intelligence as we do.
 

jonno394

Member
Nigel Farage was really the man behind Brexit, he's not blond haired and blue eyed.....

OP, living in Birmingham in England, there are people of every culture and creed imaginable here. However, many tend to stick to their own peoples, and rarely interact with each other, let alone white people, is this the white mans fault?
 
All this talk of people being 'genetically predisposed' to being wary and defensive against people who look different.... scientifically is proven (from what I have read in the past)

However.... we aren't animals. We aren't dictated by our instincts. We have knowledge and reasoning.

Anyone that is racist effectively has a primitive mind. Racism is a choice when we have as much intelligence as we do.

It's also not scientifically proven. At least, not on the basis of skin color.
 
Behave maybe, but not look. At least not historically. Racial discrimination seems to be a relatively new phenomenon, beginning in the 1400s with the European colonialism and the slave trade of American Indians and Africans. Evidence points to racism being the result of the slave trade, justifying a horrific practice, rather than the cause of it. There's a book Before Color Prejudice by Frank Snowden that illustrates the lack of colorism throughout ancient history.

We've had this discussion before and this isn't really true.
 

Toxi

Banned
Well in that case there really is no excuse for it in today's world.
There wouldn't be an excuse for it if there were a genetic factor either.

A lot of people get confused and think "X behavior has a genetic factor" means it's biologically deterministic. Bigoted behavior has a clear environmental factor, so it's clearly not biologically deterministic.

All this talk of people being 'genetically predisposed' to being wary and defensive against people who look different.... scientifically is proven (from what I have read in the past)

However.... we aren't animals. We aren't dictated by our instincts. We have knowledge and reasoning.

Anyone that is racist effectively has a primitive mind. Racism is a choice when we have as much intelligence as we do.
I should point out that plenty of irrational behavior (Racist and non-racist) has come from notably intelligent people.
 
Anyone that is racist effectively has a primitive mind. Racism is a choice when we have as much intelligence as we do.

We don't exist in a vacuum though.
The society to which we are exposed has a dramatic effect on how we treat people and, I personally think, transcends raw instinct or intelligence.
 

Merino

Member
Maybe I should note that I'm not trying to argue that the problem of racism and xenophobia is only with white men. Just saying white men have had historically far more power than any other cultural group and so now have more of an obligation to both use this power to reflect more ideal attitudes towards racism and other cultures while also working to redistribute this power more equally among cultures as we move away from the period of European colonization.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
I also mentioned in another thread that the general Christian view of the world is that darkness is associated with evil, the Devil, and things to be afraid of, and that light is the light of God, pure, good, and warmth. In that sense, there has to be at least some connection (and I've heard it espoused by racists) to tie people's darker skin with evil in some way - that those with lighter skin are inherently somehow more 'pure.'

Not every culture does this, but Christianity is pretty pervasive in modern times.

If anything that's an ad-hoc and ex-post-facto rationalization for racial prejudice, though. No one goes "well angels are white and pure, these dark guys must be evil, I guess?" They want a reason to dislike people who are different than themselves and then look for rationales; it's how we've gone from bad racial science to bad understandings of poverty.

And yeah, the idea that racism is something invented by the modern world is laughable. The difference is exact boundaries of races weren't always the same back in the day, and you simply were far less likely to ever encounter or interact with people that different from you. Even smart intelligent and well-read people can express prejudice; we're only human, and it'd be nice if you could really just educate everyone to not hold those prejudices, but it doesn't work like that.
 

NandoGip

Member
Assuming the majority of white people are racist is ridiculous.

I don't think it's crazy to assume that, depending on what country you're in and where in that country you are. There's a lot of evidence pointing towards various levels of racism from white people. Also let's not forget history. Not all obviously. 51% of white people is still the majority.

Serious question; Is it racist if I assume a race is racist?
 

jonno394

Member
Maybe I should note that I'm not trying to argue that the problem of racism and xenophobia is only with white men. Just saying white men have had historically far more power than any other cultural group and so now have more of an obligation to both use this power to reflect more ideal attitudes towards racism and other cultures while also working to redistribute this power more equally among cultures as we move away from the period of European colonization.

Maybe then your thread title shouldn't suggest the problem is with these issues amongst white men?

What cultures outside of those in the west truly share in a 'multicultural world view'. ?
 
Maybe I should note that I'm not trying to argue that the problem of racism and xenophobia is only with white men. Just saying white men have had historically far more power than any other cultural group and so now have more of an obligation to both use this power to reflect more ideal attitudes towards racism and other cultures while also working to redistribute this power more equally among cultures as we move away from the period of European colonization.
We still have a long way to go, but if you compare the Western world to pretty much any other region on Earth, I think it is mostly on the forefront of tolerance and multiculturalism. I can't really name any other regions that have those ideals in the same way Western Europe and North America has over the past decades.
 

jonno394

Member
We still have a long way to go, but if you compare the Western world to pretty much any other region on Earth, I think it is mostly on the forefront of tolerance and multiculturalism. I can't really name any other regions that have those ideals in the same way Western Europe and North America has over the past decades.

Indeed, when we have cultures that still execute gay people, or do not agree in sexually equality, among dozens of other things, you begin to see that white western culture isn't actually that bad....
 

Merino

Member
Maybe then your thread title shouldn't suggest the problem is with these issues amongst white men?

What cultures outside of those in the west truly share in a 'multicultural world view'. ?
The issue I was trying to discuss specifically is western xenophobia and racism. Figured that Islamic or Chinese xenophobia deserves it's own topic. But I think it's perfectly within reason to argue, within this subjects domain, if xenophobia and racism is simply a fact of humankind that Western culture should not even try to solve (as many cultures, as you point out are perfectly happy being xenophobic and not wanting to share in a multicultural worldview).
 
I don't think it's crazy to assume that, depending on what country you're in and where in that country you are. There's a lot of evidence pointing towards various levels of racism from white people. Also let's not forget history. Not all obviously. 51% of white people is still the majority.

Serious question; Is it racist if I assume a race is racist?

No it's stereotypical.

Saying - I hate white people 'because' they are all racist would be racism.
 

Merino

Member
Indeed, when we have cultures that still execute gay people, or do not agree in sexually equality, among dozens of other things, you begin to see that white western culture isn't actually that bad....
I'm not saying white western culture is bad at all. Mostly saying that the way our liberal values are represented towards of the rest of the world is out of whack at the moment. Or are you trying to say to me that Trump and it's 40-something% voters are currently well representing the core values that we should be defending as our liberal progressive western culture?
 
I'm going to have to read that book. From the synopsis it seems to still tie it to imperialism and slavery, but I'd be interested to see his conclusions regarding causality.

Sure, but based on my links its pretty clear racism and discrimination based on the color of your skin existed before colonialism. Its far too eurocentric a view of history for me.
 
Are we seeing the last stand of the white man desperately trying to defend it's colonial empire against the ever continuing process of cultural globalization?

Genuine question to which I'd like an answer: What is cultural globalization if not a more dominant culture assimilating a less dominant one? I feel like you maybe mean "multiculturalism", but that and "globalized culture" are not the same.

The issue I was trying to discuss specifically is western xenophobia and racism. Figured that Islamic or Chinese xenophobia deserves it's own topic. But I think it's perfectly within reason to argue, within this subjects domain, if xenophobia and racism is simply a fact of humankind that Western culture should not even try to solve (as many cultures, as you point out are perfectly happy being xenophobic and not wanting to share in a multicultural worldview).

You're the anthropologist, so maybe you can correct me, but this is how I'm thinking: I think that "xenophobia and racism" are inherent to human social dynamics, and that it's something that we will (for the foreseeable future at least) have to consciously fight against. When it comes to "groups", not being within will invariable mean that you're without, and being without will always come with certain misgivings. That counts especially when demagogues use this simple dynamic for their "us vs them" rhetoric.
 
Sure, but based on my links its pretty clear racism and discrimination based on the color of your skin existed before colonialism. Its far too eurocentric a view of history for me.

I'll admit, most of my fieldwork and research is from a Eurocentric viewpoint so I can't argue against that. But I still think that we have reason to believe that discrimination based on color is tied to imperialism and slavery rather than some natural bias.
 
I'll admit, most of my fieldwork and research is from a Eurocentric viewpoint so I can't argue against that. But I still think that we have reason to believe that discrimination based on color is tied to imperialism and slavery rather than some natural bias.

Sure, I can understand that. What I was refuting was the belief that the concept of racism only started to be a thing from the 1400s onwards.
 
Ha-ha.

Lots of GAFers are American Lifers too it seems.

I listened to this episode yesterday during my drive for work.

Anyway I thought the most ridiculous thing was the one lady who kept saying that he was telling but not listening... And Emmer along with I thought she had a point. So he did listen... And she really had nothing substantial to say except a moratorium on the refugees.

Just kind of funny how once they actually got the floor and people were listening to their logic... They didn't have anything because if they did it most likely would have been some racist idea.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom