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Radeon HD 7900 Launch set for December 22nd, 2011 - R1000 | Tahiti | GCN

artist

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May 7, 2006
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as people have already said it's sinister because Nvidia handled tesselation just fine while AMD didn't, lol
It's sinister because its;
1. Its a TWIMTBP title
2. Clearly the tessellation patch is biased in favor of Nvidia's architecture. 16 Polymorph units in the GF110 versus 2 tessellation units in 7970/6970.
 

subversus

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Oct 26, 2009
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2. Clearly the tessellation patch is biased in favor of Nvidia's architecture. 16 Polymorph units in the GF110 versus 2 tessellation units in 7970/6970.
2 units or not it runs flawlessly now.
 

specialguy

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Feb 17, 2011
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It's sinister because its;
1. Its a TWIMTBP title
2. Clearly the tessellation patch is biased in favor of Nvidia's architecture. 16 Polymorph units in the GF110 versus 2 tessellation units in 7970/6970.
Tesselation sucked on pre 7000 AMD because of something to do with little caches internal in the GPU I believe. They werent big enough.

It's fixed in 7000 series, which is why games with heavy tesselation often see their biggest gains on that card.

The idea is Crysis 2 tessellation (and all tessellation) is borked on 6000/5000, but it isn't on 7000. For example



you're talking about a 56% speedup 7970>6970 there, where the average is more like 40%. It's the same in any tess heavy game.

Thats one reason I'm holding out for a (pitcairn) 7000 series rather than jumping on a 6870 or something, much more forward looking.
 

subversus

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Oct 26, 2009
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you're talking about a 56% speedup 7970>6970 there, where the average is more like 40%. It's the same in any tess heavy game.
I confirm that. I tried Unigine Heaven 2.5 yesterday and while it was chugging on my 6950 it rarely dropped below 40-45 on 7950. I haven't tried the whole demo though because I turned vsync on and it capped perfomance at 30 fps. Looked stunning. Really happy with the card. I regret completing Arkham City in January.
 
Feb 5, 2009
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My next htpc will have a 580 in it. (HTPCs in our home get the old gaming parts from my gaming pc)
You guys with the huge ass cards in HTPC cases's, what fucking cases are those? :)

I want a more compact PC or at least with a handle for my next build.
Not saying it doesnt (on the 7970), but the patch was intended to kill the performance on the AMD cards available then (69xx, 68xx, 58xx).
Yea, i don't get why this is up to debate. That article proves it, triangle density in the concrete blocks is absurd with marginal gains in I.Q. To top it off just look at the huge performance increase with Maldo's mod without significant quality loss.
 

artist

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May 7, 2006
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2 units or not it runs flawlessly now.
Not saying it doesnt (on the 7970), but the patch was intended to kill the performance on the AMD cards available then (69xx, 68xx, 58xx).

Tesselation sucked on pre 7000 AMD because of something to do with little caches internal in the GPU I believe. They werent big enough.

It's fixed in 7000 series, which is why games with heavy tesselation often see their biggest gains on that card.

The idea is Crysis 2 tessellation (and all tessellation) is borked on 6000/5000, but it isn't on 7000. For example



you're talking about a 56% speedup 7970>6970 there, where the average is more like 40%. It's the same in any tess heavy game.

Thats one reason I'm holding out for a (pitcairn) 7000 series rather than jumping on a 6870 or something, much more forward looking.
Again, I'm well aware of the improvements in Tahiti (7970) due to the off-chip buffers and cache uses. I'm not saying that AMD's approach is inferior (less amount of tessellation units, relying on cache/buffer use) but it is certainly is not a brute force approach of Nvidia going with 16 such units.

I remember reading some where that AMD says Nvidia's approach of 16 polymorph engines is "a waste of die space".
 

specialguy

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Feb 17, 2011
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Looks pretty real imo.

So, when you have the 640 SP 7770 sometimes competing with 1120 SP 6870, which shows you how much more efficient the SP's are in GCN, a 1280 SP 7870 at 1ghz (I assume thats what ghz edition means) ought to just fly.

Course once again the problem/question is where AMD will price it...

2.56 teraflops, can run samaritan in 1080P! Want in next xbox!

oh also
Radeon HD 7850 1024SP 860MHz 130W;7870 1280SP 1000MHz 175W
I suspect this close to release these numbers are real.
 

artist

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May 7, 2006
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So, when you have the 640 SP 7770 sometimes competing with 1120 SP 6870, which shows you how much more efficient the SP's are in GCN, a 1280 SP 7870 at 1ghz (I assume thats what ghz edition means) ought to just fly.
The 7770 most often hangs around the 6850 which is still a 960SP part but yeah I agree with you on the efficiency part.

From those specs, the 7870 should have no trouble taking the 6970. However the 7850 seems too crippled, it might stuggle against a 6930 and should be faster than the 6870. :/ Not impressed with the 7850 if those specs are correct.

Using AMD's density so far with the 28nm node, I get a die size of 230mm2. This is slightly smaller than Barts (68xx), so if 28nm matures fast enough and there is enough pricing pressure from Nvidia, these will hit 68xx prices soon enough.
 

specialguy

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Feb 17, 2011
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The 7770 most often hangs around the 6850 which is still a 960SP part but yeah I agree with you on the efficiency part.
Yeah I wondered if somebody would call me out on that LOL. After I looked at more 7770 benches it only very rarely beats 6870, like in one game per benchmark set.

And then you have to account the 6850 is clocked at 775...versus 1ghz for 7770..it actually is not that much more efficient. Except on "forward looking games" (tesselation, compute shaders) it should really excel.

Still 1280 SP's at 1ghz should be nice. That's an extremely high clock.

Hmm, according to my calculations 7870 should be right about as fast as 6970...299 would be a good price then.
 

artist

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May 7, 2006
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And then you have to account the 6850 is clocked at 775...versus 1ghz for 7770..it actually is not that much more efficient. Except on "forward looking games" (tesselation, compute shaders) it should really excel.
960*775=744000 (& 1.488 TFlops)
640*1000=640000 (& 1.28 TFlops)

So despite being clocked higher, the 7770 is still at a 16.25% handicap, it is still on average about 5% slower. I would imagine by the end of 7770's run, it should easily end up ahead of the 6850.
 

specialguy

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Feb 17, 2011
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Some supposed leaked 7870 benches
BF3 1920*1080 4MSAA-FXAA Ultra

7950 36.7fps
7870 35.9fps
GTX570 35.5fps
6970 32.5fps
7850 30.1fps
6950 28.6fps

Crysis 2 1920*1080 Ingame AA Max Detail DX11

7950 43.5fps
7870 39fps
GTX570 36.2fps
6970 33.1fps
7850 32.4fps
6950 29.9fps
Overall

100%= 7970

580 88.3%
7950 85.1%
6970 77.7%
570 75.9%
560TI 448 73%
7870 72.9%
6950 68.7%
560Ti 64%
7850 60.8%
560 58%
6780 56.5%
The overall is a bit disappointing, but if it excels in new DX11 games like BF3 and Crysis 2 (where it looks to be almost 580 level) that's good.
 
Sep 15, 2010
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That's awesome performance if it's priced @ $299. Also, it may OC like a beast up to 1.2-1.3 Ghz so it could end up much faster than a 580...
 

specialguy

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Feb 17, 2011
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What the..? Dunno if real



If anything would seem to just be the rumored higher clocked 7970 or "7980". However it's odd they'd have a whole new code name for just an upclock.

To get 1.2x, well obviously it would have to be clocked up ~1100 mhz (assuming same functional units). Could be a nice counter to whatever Nvidia has planned, if it's even real.
 

artist

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May 7, 2006
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^ nice find. Yeah, dunno if real or fake.

They could just be binning chips for leaky chips and release this "Terenife" if the GK104 blows some socks off the 7970.
 
Sep 15, 2010
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What the..? Dunno if real



If anything would seem to just be the rumored higher clocked 7970 or "7980". However it's odd they'd have a whole new code name for just an upclock.

To get 1.2x, well obviously it would have to be clocked up ~1100 mhz (assuming same functional units). Could be a nice counter to whatever Nvidia has planned, if it's even real.
I think it might have more SP's than the 7970, because AMD designed GCN to scale up. In the next year or two they plan on releasing 25xx and 30xx SP GCN cards. This 7980 might have 2200~ SP's... that'd be great.

But it'd definitely cheaper/easier to just crank it up to 1.1 Ghz.
 

artist

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May 7, 2006
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I think it might have more SP's than the 7970, because AMD designed GCN to scale up. In the next year or two they plan on releasing 25xx and 30xx SP GCN cards. This 7980 might have 2200~ SP's... that'd be great.

But it'd definitely cheaper/easier to just crank it up to 1.1 Ghz.
I dont think AMD would design a new chip to add only 2 more CUs, only expecting it to last for a short time.

(Folks @ B3D have confirmed from the die shots of Tahiti that there are no more than 32 CUs in it)
 

Zombie James

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Dec 28, 2005
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The 7850 seems to match up exactly with the 6950 (based on Anandtech review). Decent upgrade choice for my next build.
 

Hazaro

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Jan 21, 2008
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Not impressed with 7850 performance, although it seems the days of $220 6950's are gone so I guess that just slots in there doesn't it? 6870 looks even more attractive overall at the prices it's going for.
7870 makes much more sense and is the mid range to buy.

Power consumption is really nice for both.
 
Sep 15, 2010
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The more I look at it, the more the 7850 destroys everything in that price range. It has 2 GB of RAM, costs less than a GTX 570/560 448 yet offers close to the same performance... so if it drops below $250, it's awesome.

Then again, I did post a 6870 2 GB for $180 a page or two back...
 

Hazaro

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Jan 21, 2008
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The more I look at it, the more the 7850 destroys everything in that price range. It has 2 GB of RAM, costs less than a GTX 570/560 448 yet offers close to the same performance... so if it drops below $250, it's awesome.

Then again, I did post a 6870 2 GB for $180 a page or two back...
It replaces the 6950 2GB at the same price point. It doesn't destroy anything.
It's a good card priced where it should be, with great power draw.

6950's have been going on sale for $220 for quite some time. Used you can pick them up for <$190.
If the 7850 were $215 and the 7870 $315 I could really get behind the cards, but not right now.

Either way it's up to nVidia to decide where to counter launch their cards at and if we have a price war or not. I hope we do.
 
Sep 15, 2010
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It replaces the 6950 2GB at the same price point. It doesn't destroy anything.
It's a good card priced where it should be, with great power draw.

6950's have been going on sale for $220 for quite some time. Used you can pick them up for <$190.
If the 7850 were $215 and the 7870 $315 I could really get behind the cards, but not right now.

Either way it's up to nVidia to decide where to counter launch their cards at and if we have a price war or not. I hope we do.
I can totally see the 7850 dropping down to $200-220 in the next few months if sales are slow.

Plus, I hope the 7850 OC's much better than the 6950.
 

Zornica

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Mar 20, 2011
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What the..? Dunno if real



If anything would seem to just be the rumored higher clocked 7970 or "7980". However it's odd they'd have a whole new code name for just an upclock.

To get 1.2x, well obviously it would have to be clocked up ~1100 mhz (assuming same functional units). Could be a nice counter to whatever Nvidia has planned, if it's even real.
it seems so be real
according to a german source it's an improved chip called tenerife with 2.304 Shaders, and higher clocks due to the improvements made with the 28nm process.
 

Zornica

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Mar 20, 2011
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Can anyone predict how fast will it be?
according to the site, they predict about 4,61 TFLOPS (compared to the 3,79 TFLOPS of a HD 7970) if the ALUs aren't improved further, based on the rumored 2.304 Shaders + 1.000 MHz core speed.
 

artist

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May 7, 2006
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349 $ for the 7870...

Hurry Nvidia!.
If the 7850 were $215 and the 7870 $315 I could really get behind the cards, but not right now.
Why the hell would you need the 7870 to be cheaper? It makes the 580 redundant .. I can see why the 7850 needs a price drop of a few bucks but the 7870 is "awesome" as is.

it seems so be real
according to a german source it's an improved chip called tenerife with 2.304 Shaders, and higher clocks due to the improvements made with the 28nm process.
They are just speculating, not confirming anything.
 

Hazaro

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Jan 21, 2008
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Why the hell would you need the 7870 to be cheaper? It makes the 580 redundant .. I can see why the 7850 needs a price drop of a few bucks but the 7870 is "awesome" as is.


They are just speculating, not confirming anything.
Because the price points are exactly where they should be and are just replacements.
They are good cards with good power draw, but it's nothing tot exciting for me.

I want another fantastic value <$250 card.
 

muu

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Mar 20, 2011
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Still on my 5770 since FF14 fizzled and didn't compel me to upgrade further. System sucks up 180w idle so I'd love to upgrade but even 7870's performance makes it seem like a questionable value. What's the chance of these things dropping in price once nVidia's offerings come out?
 

Shambles

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Dec 5, 2008
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Hot cards at cold prices. These need to come way down. Remember just a few years when AMD was releasing their flagship 4870 at $300. Now The 7970 is lauching closer $600 and every part underneath it is just as inflated. Hopefully nvidia comes out swinging because if both companies adopt the "let's see how much we can milk consumers" attitude then we're really in trouble.
 

cilonen

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it seems so be real
according to a german source it's an improved chip called tenerife with 2.304 Shaders, and higher clocks due to the improvements made with the 28nm process.
Semi-noob-ish question; the slide only lists HDMI and mini Display Port as outputs. Is this serious? No DVI? If so, why would they do that?
 

muu

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Semi-noob-ish question; the slide only lists HDMI and mini Display Port as outputs. Is this serious? No DVI? If so, why would they do that?
Cost-cutting by removing DVI perhaps? Doesn't cost much for a DVI-HDMI converter after all.
 

1-D_FTW

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Jun 14, 2006
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No.

Also,
The cards eat up about 70 watts more than those slides are claiming.
http://www.hardocp.com/article/2012/03/04/amd_radeon_hd_7870_7850_video_card_review/13

No they're not. The 67 watts is that system configuration idled with integrated graphics (I assume). You can't subtract 67 from the load numbers and put that all on the GPU. The harder the GPU works, the harder the CPU is working in games. And that's also driving up the system usage numbers. The fact that the 7850 only has a single 6 pin PCI-E molex tells you all you need to know about the efficiency of those cards.
 

StevieP

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Sep 10, 2006
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No they're not. The 67 watts is that system configuration idled with integrated graphics (I assume). You can't subtract 67 from the load numbers and put that all on the GPU. The harder the GPU works, the harder the CPU is working in games. And that's also driving up the system usage numbers. The fact that the 7850 only has a single 6 pin PCI-E molex tells you all you need to know about the efficiency of those cards.
They are certainly more efficient than VLIW cards, but that comes down to the die shrink more than anything. You'll also shave a few watts using a customized/downclocked version in a console, sure.

But the day I believe PR slides is the day my hair turns to gray. I say that even as a fan of ATI, who is right around the corner from my current location.
 

artist

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May 7, 2006
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Because the price points are exactly where they should be and are just replacements.
They are good cards with good power draw, but it's nothing tot exciting for me.
Sorry, but who decided that these cards should be priced at the arbitary $315? You do realize that neither AMD or Nvidia price their products based on rebates or firesales?

I want another fantastic value <$250 card.
I'm in the same boat but doesnt stop me from appreciating a good product.

No.

Also,
The cards eat up about 70 watts more than those slides are claiming.
http://www.hardocp.com/article/2012/03/04/amd_radeon_hd_7870_7850_video_card_review/13

Read what you quoted .. TOTAL SYSTEM DRAW.

7870 typical consumption is 115-130W and 7850 is 90-105W.
 

Hazaro

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Sorry, but who decided that these cards should be priced at the arbitary $315? You do realize that neither AMD or Nvidia price their products based on rebates or firesales?

I'm in the same boat but doesnt stop me from appreciating a good product.
I didn't decide anything. I'm just saying if prices were lower I'd be a lot more excited for the launch.

I wanted much more (power) from a new arch and process. Hopefully nVidia delivers.
 

artist

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May 7, 2006
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I didn't decide anything. I'm just saying if prices were lower I'd be a lot more excited for the launch.
I would have jumped the gun and pre-ordered the 7870 if it was $250 ;) But AMD is playing the game a bit more cautiously than before and I understand why. I just got the same vibe as that "Boo this man" gif from you ever since the 7700 launch :p The 7800 looked most exciting to me of the three launches so far.

I wanted much more (power) from a new arch and process. Hopefully nVidia delivers.
I hope so too, waiting for the GK104. If it delivers 7970 performance or close at $399, I'm in.