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Radeon RX Vega thread

Ok, we're just arguing a different point. Public perception was never something i was arguing. Only objective product quality
"Objective product quality" in one specific metric though. (Which is "FPS/$ in popular GPU-limited high-end games") That's fine, and not a bad metric really, but it's not the only metric that matters to everyone.

Personally, for me things like consistent performance across "badly optimized" games and VR performance matter, and in those the comparison looks different. And that's before going into specific feature sets (like support for forcing SGSSAA).

Also, especially in the enthusiast space, when you only match performance at a slightly lower price much later on there is understandably not much excitement about that. Most enthusiasts who want that performance level and are prepared to spend in its price category probably already did so. That's different of course in the value segments, at least in theory, but Steam survey numbers seem to indicate that the "halo product effect" (which is, and I agree with that, not really rational of course) is clearly a thing.
 
Ok, we're just arguing a different point. Public perception was never something i was arguing. Only objective product quality

7970 > 680 (especially today. Kepler is awful)
7950 > 670 ^
7870 > 660 ^

390 > 970
390x > 980
380x > 960

580 > 1060
570 > 1060 3gb

Furyx = 980ti. Worse at 1080p. Better at 4k

All those comparisons were not true at launch though and a lot of people look at launch reviews. From what I remember a 670 was better for most of its lifespan. It wasn't until the new consoles launched that it started sucking. Now it probably can't even compete with the 7870.

A second thing is your comparisons are only true for AAA multiplats. As an informed consumer myself I'm pretty much stuck with Nvidia. While AMD cards might have a 5% advantage in AAA multiplats they simply suck in almost everything else. Now if you only play big budget mulitplats this isn't a problem but I play a ton of PC games and lesser budget titles, and the win in AAA games really doesn't weigh up to the loss in the rest.

"Objective product quality" in a one specific metric though. (Which is "FPS/$ in popular GPU-limited high-end games") That's fine, and not a bad metric really, but it's not the only metric that matters to everyone.

I'd say it's a bad metric to base "objective product quailty" upon. His metric isn't even based on popular high-end games but rather big budget games. In fact big budget AAA games are only a small % of games. I'd say PUBG for example is massively popular and high end. All those cards he mentioned are probably 20-30% behind their counterparts in PUBG.
 
I thought it would be almost impossible for AMD to get rid of the perception of beeing not even an option compared to Intel, but Ryzen seems to be selling pretty well. So i think if the release a competetive product it well. Maybe not as well as Nvidia but AMD doesnt need to sell that much.
 
I have a 980 ti and I am getting tired of Nvidia making their own cards obsolete and age like shit, I have had nvidia the past 3 generations. I was waiting for Vega and planning to upgrade to that instead of buying Nvidia again.....I was at least hoping it to match 1080ti then it would be a definite buy for me. But if it can't do that I guess I'll keep waiting
 
I have a 980 ti and I am getting tired of Nvidia making their own cards obsolete and age like shit, I have had nvidia the past 3 generations. I was waiting for Vega and planning to upgrade to that instead of buying Nvidia again.....I was at least hoping it to match 1080ti then it would be a definite buy for me. But if it can't do that I guess I'll keep waiting

the 980ti is probably the only nvidia card in recent memory thats actually aged well. not sure where you are coming from
 
I have a 980 ti and I am getting tired of Nvidia making their own cards obsolete and age like shit, I have had nvidia the past 3 generations. I was waiting for Vega and planning to upgrade to that instead of buying Nvidia again.....I was at least hoping it to match 1080ti then it would be a definite buy for me. But if it can't do that I guess I'll keep waiting

Do you have your 980 ti overclocked? You should, 25%+ increase in performance, and that's being conservative.
 
Nvidia somehow making their own cards obsolete more quickly on purpose is one of those silly internet myths. It has spread sufficiently far that reputable sites (like Computerbase) have actually gone out of their way to test a huge range of cards of various ages with a large range of drivers, and the results are always the same: it's not happening.

What does happen and makes a difference with these historic comparisons is that Nvidia usually ships their GPUs with a driver that is already pretty good at leveraging the potential of the hardware in most games. On the other hand, with AMD it can happen that their launch driver doesn't run many games at their full potential, and subsequently newer driver releases can make more of a difference.
 
I have a 980 ti and I am getting tired of Nvidia making their own cards obsolete and age like shit, I have had nvidia the past 3 generations. I was waiting for Vega and planning to upgrade to that instead of buying Nvidia again.....I was at least hoping it to match 1080ti then it would be a definite buy for me. But if it can't do that I guess I'll keep waiting

Maxwell is not "obsolete" in any way and has not and will not "age like shit". In fact, your 980Ti is aging a lot better than its Fury X competitor from AMD right now (because it has 2GB more VRAM which coincidentally is also the main reason why some other cards tend to "age like shit" in comparison, not because of someone "making" them).

What does happen and makes a difference with these historic comparisons is that Nvidia usually ships their GPUs with a driver that is already pretty good at leveraging the potential of the hardware in most games. On the other hand, with AMD it can happen that their launch driver doesn't run many games at their full potential, and subsequently newer driver releases can make more of a difference.

What actually happened is a one time thing with Kepler vs GCN1/2, where the latter got a big boost in AAA titles because it was used in new consoles and Kepler on the contrary being substituted with Maxwell has been progressively receiving less and less attention from game developers.

If we look further out there were no such cases prior to this one and there are certainly no such cases with Maxwell and Pascal now. So the myth is real and the people who perpetuate it are just silly.
 
I have a 980 ti and I am getting tired of Nvidia making their own cards obsolete and age like shit, I have had nvidia the past 3 generations. I was waiting for Vega and planning to upgrade to that instead of buying Nvidia again.....I was at least hoping it to match 1080ti then it would be a definite buy for me. But if it can't do that I guess I'll keep waiting

My 980Ti still runs like a champ. It runs so good that I decided to skip this gen and go straight to Volta/Navi
 
this is a noob question: the ps4 and xone use AMD gpu, shouldnt multiplatform games be at least a little bit more optimzied for PC AMD GPUs and not for nvidia? I dont play in a PC since my old GeForce 64MB (lol), so I might be completely wrong, but it seems that games are usually better optimized for nvidia ones, right?

and yes I know that the gpu power matters a lot in the performance, but the optimization should also help.
 
this is a noob question: the ps4 and xone use AMD gpu, shouldnt multiplatform games be at least a little bit more optimzied for PC AMD GPUs and not for nvidia? I dont play in a PC since my old GeForce 64MB (lol), so I might be completely wrong, but it seems that games are usually better optimized for nvidia ones, right?

and yes I know that the gpu power matters a lot in the performance, but the optimization should also help.
Consoles use specialized APIs that doesn't translate very well to PC directly. We have seen GCN advantage in some titles because of consoles(Doom is a good example), but Nvidia have always had better relationships with developers and they always optimize their drivers.
 
this is a noob question: the ps4 and xone use AMD gpu, shouldnt multiplatform games be at least a little bit more optimzied for PC AMD GPUs and not for nvidia? I dont play in a PC since my old GeForce 64MB (lol), so I might be completely wrong, but it seems that games are usually better optimized for nvidia ones, right?

and yes I know that the gpu power matters a lot in the performance, but the optimization should also help.

most high end, gpu demanding games are better optimized for amd. ubisoft is the biggest exception
 
I don't care what random people "think" about reliability, and neither should anyone else. If you want to buy something because other people "think" it's better, feel free, it's not very smart, but you do you.

If someone is tied into freesync or gsync and feel they HAVE to buy a certain brand then that's the bed they've made, but that is irrelevant to whether or not Vega cards are good.

Whether the best card from AMD competes with the best card from Nvidia is irrelevant too for all but the top 1%. Price to performance is king. Vague arguments about mindshare and PR are irrelevant to anyone with a working brain.

I'm going to get the best card for 400-500ish dollars. Hopefully that's a Vega card, or price reduced Nvidia card. If other people want to buy whatever card internet memes say they should buy, I can't stop them from their own ignorance.

For now, it remains to be seen whether or not Vega is good.

If Vega can't match performance AND undercut NV, then it just isn't good enough and Vega is just an noncompetitive as the Fury X. Whether or not you like it or not, the competitiveness of AMD cards are just not there unless they provide a product that is indisputably compelling.

Vague arguments about mindshare and PR are not irrelevant. People have a limited time to research and determine what they want. A lot of prosumers will opt for NV straight up not because they don't have a working brain (lmao are you serious). They do so because straight up NV has a legacy of better drivers and software support, especially in the Linux sector. Whether that is still true today is very questionable but it drives sales and lets NV ask for premiums they probably don't deserve in the lower end market.

When we're talking about competition, it is important to notice this. Shit, Threadripper isn't getting popular just because AMD released a decent product in Ryzen. Its getting quite a bit of hype because Intel has been fostering years of negative enthusiast reception through maintaining low thread counts, constant socket changes, non-soldered IHS providing unreliable cooling performance and tepid IPC improvements. This is mindshare in effect.

Let's be honest here. AMD is clearly not very competitive in the GPU space, outside of virtual currency mining. They've lost market share year after year and have no real design wins in the OEM space except for Apple out of all people.
 
this is a noob question: the ps4 and xone use AMD gpu, shouldnt multiplatform games be at least a little bit more optimzied for PC AMD GPUs and not for nvidia? I dont play in a PC since my old GeForce 64MB (lol), so I might be completely wrong, but it seems that games are usually better optimized for nvidia ones, right?

and yes I know that the gpu power matters a lot in the performance, but the optimization should also help.

AMD got a pretty big benefit from GCN being used in modern consoles already. This benefit however is a finite gain and we've already reached the peak.

most high end, gpu demanding games are better optimized for amd. ubisoft is the biggest exception

Nope. Most high end, GPU demanding games are equally good at being optimized for both AMD and Nvidia.

Some of them, especially those which are in some vendor developer program, may be better optimized for this vendor, but such games are a very distinct minority among "high end, GPU demanding games".
 
I switched to Team Red not too long ago from a GTX 960, but I kinda miss PhysX support plus the lower CPU usage and better framepacing.
 
AMD got a pretty big benefit from GCN being used in modern consoles already. This benefit however is a finite gain and we've already reached the peak.



Nope. Most high end, GPU demanding games are equally good at being optimized for both AMD and Nvidia.

Some of them, especially those which are in some vendor developer program, may be better optimized for this vendor, but such games are a very distinct minority among "high end, GPU demanding games".

Total1.png
 
I hope AMD nails it. Nvidia needs some competition in the enthusiasts space. Might be wishful thinking, but I'm hoping to pick up a card that can actually do 4K/60fps for the price a GTX 1080.
 
Sold my Powercolor Rx 480 8gb Red Devil for $390 and today it's going as high as $500, this is nuts. Hopefully Vega's memory isn't good for mining like 1080.
 

No idea what this should say to me, sorry. If you're basing your opinion on just one review of two cards then you're even more wrong than I thought previously.

Also - are these games where 1060 is faster not high end GPU demanding ones? Or are all games where 580 is faster such games? Doom is demanding, maybe? Or Titanfall 2?
 
Mm, no, not really, at the very least 580 and 570 are like that at launch and so were 390/390x, if my memory doesn't fail me.

Not at 1080p. 390x here is only 2% better than a 970, while it should be competing with the 980.

https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/R9_390X_Gaming/30.html

The 580&570 are indeed faster than a 1060 in AAA multiplats. I knew that.

No idea what this should say to me, sorry. If you're basing your opinion on just one review of two cards then you're even more wrong than I thought previously.

Also - are these games where 1060 is faster not high end GPU demanding ones? Or are all games where 580 is faster such games? Doom is demanding, maybe? Or Titanfall 2?

I think he's trying to show that there are more AAA games favoring AMD than Nvidia but I'd say a 2% difference is negligible. I mean if you would take all the AAA games released this year the 1060 would probably win so it all depends on which games you pick. All in all it's very close.
 
Not at 1080p. 390x here is only 2% better than a 970, while it should be competing with the 980.

https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/R9_390X_Gaming/30.html

The 580&570 are indeed faster than a 1060 in AAA multiplats. I knew that.



I think he's trying to show that there are more AAA games favoring AMD than Nvidia but I'd say a 2% difference is negligible. I mean if you would take all the AAA games released this year the 1060 would probably win so it all depends on which games you pick. All in all it's very close.

Theres a clear trend shown in that graph. 4 of the games nvidia is ahead in are also gameworks titles from ubisoft
 
Nvidia has had it's way for well over a year with the high end and high-mid end. Sucks for consumers, and most people got tired of waiting for AMD to produce a solution.
 
Nvidia has had it's way for well over a year with the high end and high-mid end. Sucks for consumers, and most people got tired of waiting for AMD to produce a solution.

I don't think it has sucked for consumers. Things could be cheaper but you can get a lot of bang for your buck with something like a GTX 1070.

Actually I think the 1080 Ti came in quite a bit lower than many people were expecting, considering they had the market to themselves.
 
I think he's trying to show that there are more AAA games favoring AMD than Nvidia but I'd say a 2% difference is negligible. I mean if you would take all the AAA games released this year the 1060 would probably win so it all depends on which games you pick. All in all it's very close.

Exactly. And this isn't a "probably" but almost certainly since I do monitor this and so far there is just one AAA game this year where 580 is generally faster than 1060 - RE7, the rest are either even or tend to favor 1060 slightly. And it's an open discussion on how demanding RE7 is, i.e. I was playing it on a notebook with a 1060 in 1080p once and couldn't really say that there were glaring performance issues.

Theres a clear trend shown in that graph. 4 of the games nvidia is ahead in are also gameworks titles from ubisoft

And 8 games in which AMD is ahead are Gaming Evolved titles sponsored by AMD which is twice as many. They are also tested in DX12 only in this graph which is absolutely misleading. There is no "trend".
 
Mm, no, not really, at the very least 580 and 570 are like that at launch and so were 390/390x, if my memory doesn't fail me.

That's misrepresenting how things happened at best.

The 7000 series which you originally cited was behind the 600 series at launch--AMD had to quickly repackage all their 7970's as the GHz Edition to be competitive with stock GTX 680's. On top of that, the 7970 launched at $550 (very high for an AMD card at the time) but was immediately displaced by the GTX 680 which launched in March of 2012 at $499, and within 6 months the GHz Edition launched at $499 and the stock 7970's were selling for $400-450. Granted the 7000 series was first to the market launching in Dec 2011, but by the time the 660-680 and 7850-7970 were out, the 600 series was a bit ahead. The GTX 670 at launch in May of 2012 was basically tied with the 7970 (pre-GHz Edition), and crushed the 7950, 7870, and 7850.

You also omitted the 700 and 200 series I noticed. The 780 launched in May of 2013, and was mostly unopposed until the 290x launched in Oct 2013. At launch the 290x edged out the 780 by about 1% according to TPU, with the 290 coming in November of 2013 being on par for the 780.

Then there was the 300 series vs. the 900 series. The big thing to remember here is launch dates. The GTX 980 launched in Sept. 2014, but AMD's response--the 390x---didn't launch until June 2015, 9 months later. At launch the 390x was equivalent to the GTX 980 in most scenarios, but again, it launched 9 months later. Now if we compare the Fury X at launch to the 980 Ti (which launched a month before btw) we can see the Fury X was only on par for the 980 Ti in 4K, and scaled pretty horribly as the resolution dropped.
 
Thanks to two users we have a comparison between a Fury X @ 1050 Mhz with 512 GB/s and the Vega FE @ 1050 Mhz with 512 GB/s in the benchmark Superposition:
superimbtm.jpg

https://www.3dcenter.org/news/hardware-und-nachrichten-links-des-3-juli-2017

Vega FE is nearly 16% slower or the Fury X roughly 19% faster.

Fury + Ryzen 1800 vs Nethalem Xeon, god knows how big CPU impact is.


You also omitted the 700 and 200 series I noticed.

You should check the list of cards mentioned in the original post.
 

Interesting, updated OP

Thanks to two users we have a comparison between a Fury X @ 1050 Mhz with 512 GB/s and the Vega FE @ 1050 Mhz with 512 GB/s in the benchmark Superposition:
superimbtm.jpg

https://www.3dcenter.org/news/hardware-und-nachrichten-links-des-3-juli-2017

Vega FE is nearly 16% slower or the Fury X roughly 19% faster.

Yeah I don't know what's going on with Vega, but something is definitely not right
 
Just checked Fury X OC-ing results:
http://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/amd-radeon-r9-fury-x-review,37.html

7.1% OC (1050 => 1125) brought:

3D Mark: + 6.29%
Hitman at 1440p: +7%
Tomb Raider at 1440p: + 5.2%
Bioshock Infinite at 1440p: +4.67%


At 1630Mhz (videocardz twitter) Vega has 55% faster clocks than Fury X. (52% faster at 1600Mhz)
Fury X is 33% (64%) slower than 1080 (1080Ti). (techpowerup)

How could Vega FE @1600Mhz end up between 1070 and 1080 in gaming benchmarks???

i think some part of the silicon is broken, kind of like the msaa hardware in r600 was broken
 
Just checked Fury X OC-ing results:
http://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/amd-radeon-r9-fury-x-review,37.html

7.1% OC (1050 => 1125) brought:

3D Mark: + 6.29%
Hitman at 1440p: +7%
Tomb Raider at 1440p: + 5.2%
Bioshock Infinite at 1440p: +4.67%


At 1630Mhz (videocardz twitter) Vega has 55% faster clocks than Fury X. (52% faster at 1600Mhz)
Fury X is 33% (64%) slower than 1080 (1080Ti). (techpowerup)

How could Vega FE @1600Mhz end up between 1070 and 1080 in gaming benchmarks???

Vega 10 is not a shrink of Fiji, it would've been quite a bit smaller if this was the case. This means that clocks comparison don't mean much as the architectures are different.
 
Just checked Fury X OC-ing results:
http://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/amd-radeon-r9-fury-x-review,37.html

7.1% OC (1050 => 1125) brought:

3D Mark: + 6.29%
Hitman at 1440p: +7%
Tomb Raider at 1440p: + 5.2%
Bioshock Infinite at 1440p: +4.67%


At 1630Mhz (videocardz twitter) Vega has 55% faster clocks than Fury X. (52% faster at 1600Mhz)
Fury X is 33% (64%) slower than 1080 (1080Ti). (techpowerup)

How could Vega FE @1600Mhz end up between 1070 and 1080 in gaming benchmarks???

I was thinking the same thing. Theoretically it doesn't make much sense if the IPC is equal to or greater than Fiji's.

Vega 10 is not a shrink of Fiji, it would've been quite a bit smaller if this was the case. This means that clocks comparison don't mean much as the architectures are different.

Wouldn't that imply a decrease in IPC? Although the performance we're seeing is probably not representative of the Gaming variant of Vega. So it's probably too early to come to that conclusion.
 
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