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Rarely have I felt such apathy towards a video game. LTTP: Jak II

Those desert car missions might be the main reason why I like Jak 2 so much more. Not that those sections are badly made (although it's been a while, they might be), but they slow the game down so much for something so dull

The Race for More Artefacts mission in Act 2 was 5 minutes of a timed collectathon in a sandstorm with Marauder cars shooting at you and cars that handle terribly. That was pretty bad.

There is a platforming element throughout all three games but Jak 2 and 3 put a big emphasis on guns. Yes you could say Jak 1 is a beat 'em up as well.

They put a bigger emphasis on platforming as well.
 

rjc571

Banned
It's a shame people let their perception of Jak 2's tone affect their enjoyment of the game, because it really is one of the best 3D platformers of all time, featuring a bevy of the most masterfully crafted platforming missions of any game to this day. I was apprehensive towards the game before it came out, but as soon as I played the game it was immediately apparent that the "dark" tone was nothing more than a facade.
 

faridmon

Member
Jak 3 improved on everything and actually made Jak himself an interesting character. The dialogue was by far the best in the series and the length as well was impressive.

I hope your hate for Jak 2 doesn't persuade you from playing Jak 3.
 

rjc571

Banned
There is a platforming element throughout all three games but Jak 2 and 3 put a big emphasis on guns. Yes you could say Jak 1 is a beat 'em up as well.

Ha ha ha oh wow. So you think Mario 64 and Banjo Kazooie are beat 'em ups as well?
 
It's not like games can only belong to one genre. In Jak 2 however, almost all of the missions involve shooting something.

At least 24 missions didn't involve shooting whatsoever, and considering there were only 65 missions that's over a third of the game.
 

synchronicity

Gold Member
I thought people said Jak II was the best?

I didn't know people ever spoke in one voice. :p Anyway, I enjoyed the series, including Jak II, but I thought the series never reached greatness. It was fun enough, but never in the same league as R&C or any of that gen's best. If I had skipped the series, I wouldn't be any worse for it.

On another note, I always hated the focus-tested, 'here's a character for everyone' look of Jak. I hate when developers think too hard on what will appeal to the most people rather than just creating something authentic and unique. (I know...money.)
 

kazebyaka

Banned
As a kid i thought it's the best game ever. And i tried playing hd remaster and it was ok, i guess. Never liked first Jak, though.
 

xPhinehas

Member
Many of the comments in this thread are making my brain hurt. All I know is that I loved all the Jak games and Jak II is awesome!
 

Jarmel

Banned
What the fuck ever. This is a pointless semantics debate. Shooting is a VERY significant part of the game. Whether you want to classify it as a shooting game or an action game, shooting is an integral part of the gameplay and it sucks shit. That's the real crux of it all. The shooting sucks and you spend a large amount of time doing it. If you want to feel better and classify it as an action game so the failings aren't as big, whatever, but at the end of the day, you spend a large amount of time in the game doing something that is pretty crap.
 

rjc571

Banned
What the fuck ever. This is a pointless semantics debate. Shooting is a VERY significant part of the game. Whether you want to classify it as a shooting game or an action game, shooting is an integral part of the gameplay and it sucks shit. That's the real crux of it all. The shooting sucks and you spend a large amount of time doing it. If you want to feel better and classify it as an action game so the failings aren't as big, whatever, but at the end of the day, you spend a large amount of time in the game doing something that is pretty crap.

Is Metal Gear Solid a shooter?
 

Mael

Member
Except for the PS1 era. Crash, Spyro and multi-platform wise Croc and Gex, the former of which never came out on N64 and was apparantly the influence for Mario 64.

Croc was released in 1997....Gex 1 was a 2d platformer and Gex 2 was 1998....
Super Mario 64 was released in 1996...
 
What the fuck ever. This is a pointless semantics debate. Shooting is a VERY significant part of the game. Whether you want to classify it as a shooting game or an action game, shooting is an integral part of the gameplay and it sucks shit. That's the real crux of it all. The shooting sucks and you spend a large amount of time doing it. If you want to feel better and classify it as an action game so the failings aren't as big, whatever, but at the end of the day, you spend a large amount of time in the game doing something that is pretty crap.

You say the shooting sucks, that's your opinion, which some of us disagree with. You classify it as a shooting game to help enforce your opinion without properly justifying it.

When I was criticising some of the games flaws in a previous reply I gave precise examples as why I thought certain parts of the game were bad or needed some work. You're doing no such thing, instead you choose to debate semantics and then you criticise others for driving your, in my opinion, inaccurate "argument" to the ground.

While it is true that you do spend a lot of time shooting, regardless of how you classify the game, and it is true that you don't like the shooting, that doesn't make the game bad. It doesn't mean you have to like it, that is your own personal preference which I have no control over, nor any desire to control, but just by itself saying "it sucks" is not an argument, just an opinion. Neither is "it's a shooter and the shooting sucks".

From where I'm standing, you are being very loud but you aren't saying very much.

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And the shooting mechanics in Metal Gear suck shit, and it's an issue with the game. What's your point?

The point is, regardless of how well the game actually does it, both Jak II and MGS are not shooters just because you happen to shoot in it sometimes.
 

Jarmel

Banned
You say the shooting sucks, that's your opinion, which some of us disagree with. You classify it as a shooting game to help enforce your opinion without properly justifying it.

When I was criticising some of the games flaws in a previous reply I gave precise examples as why I thought certain parts of the game were bad, you're doing no such thing, instead you choose to debate semantics.

While it is true that you do spend a lot of time shooting, regardless of how you classify the game, and you don't like the shooting, that doesn't make the game bad. It doesn't mean you have to like it, that is your own personal preference which I have no control over, nor any desire to control, but just by itself saying "it sucks" is not an argument, just an opinion. Neither is "it's a shooter and a shooting sucks".

From where I'm standing, you are being very loud but you aren't saying very much.

You spend a large amount of time shooting things in the game. For me, that makes it a shooter. If you want to argue about the specific definitions of what makes a game a shooter, that's not my point. The issue is that the shooting is a main aspect of the game.

I can talk about the crap accuracy, the poor enemy encounters, and the firing of the weapons being pisspoor all as issues of the gunplay being garbage. For example the escaping the slums mission is awful on multiple levels. First you have poor enemy design in that the game throws waves of enemies at you, second is that the player has to fight the game in regards to the gun accuracy, and third being that the player has no real way of approaching the scenario in any number of ways other than possibly trying to glitch out of the entire mission.

The point is, regardless of how well the game actually does it, both Jak II and MGS are not shooters just because you happen to shoot in it sometimes.

You shoot in Jak 2 a lot more than sometimes.
 
Jak 2 is the best game ND has ever made

that or TLoU

The platforming section are some of the best in 3D platforming history. The game is challenging unlike most platformers, and the combination of shooting/melee/platforming is a lot more fluid than the R&C games. I also love the races in that game; whipping through track was very satisfying.

<3 the hover board

yes, def best ND game
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
It's a shame people let their perception of Jak 2's tone affect their enjoyment of the game, because it really is one of the best 3D platformers of all time, featuring a bevy of the most masterfully crafted platforming missions of any game to this day. I was apprehensive towards the game before it came out, but as soon as I played the game it was immediately apparent that the "dark" tone was nothing more than a facade.

I doubt that's the point. At least for me, it isn't. I've also enjoyed PoP WW besides the tone (which is even more extreme than in Jak 2), the thing just is: Jak 2's gameplay sucks enormously.
 

rjc571

Banned
You say the shooting sucks, that's your opinion, which some of us disagree with. You classify it as a shooting game to help enforce your opinion without properly justifying it.

When I was criticising some of the games flaws in a previous reply I gave precise examples as why I thought certain parts of the game were bad, you're doing no such thing, instead you choose to debate semantics and then you criticise others for driving your, in my opinion inaccurate, "argument" to the ground.

While it is true that you do spend a lot of time shooting, regardless of how you classify the game, and it is true that you don't like the shooting, that doesn't make the game bad. It doesn't mean you have to like it, that is your own personal preference which I have no control over, nor any desire to control, but just by itself saying "it sucks" is not an argument, just an opinion. Neither is "it's a shooter and the shooting sucks". From where I'm standing, you are being very loud but you aren't saying very much.

And the main flaw with his argument is that he's judging the shooting mechanics within the context of a shooting game, which Jak clearly isn't. If you built an ACTUAL third person shooter around Jak 2's shooting mechanics it would be awful, but the shooting in Jak 2 isn't very nuanced because shooting is simply a way of disposing of the game's enemies, rather than the game's central mechanic.
 

Jarmel

Banned
And the main flaw with his argument is that he's judging the shooting mechanics within the context of a shooting game, which Jak clearly isn't. If you built an ACTUAL third person shooter around Jak 2's shooting mechanics it would be awful, but the shooting in Jak 2 isn't very nuanced because shooting is simply a way of disposing of the game's enemies, rather than the game's central mechanic.

It doesn't matter what genre you want to call the game it is. The main way of disposing of a plethora of enemies in the game is via shooting. You just admitted the mechanics are awful. It's not like coming across enemies in this game is even remotely rare. You kill lots of things in the game via a pisspoor game mechanic.
 

Kura

Banned
¿Jak II a terrible game? That hurts my soul.
Jak is my favourite franchise of PS2 era. Played 2, before 3 and 1.

Just because it's not the platformer you want it's a bad game?
Just because a character that aside from jumping, punching, smashing can shot guns also is a bad game?

Why the need to be so mind closed?

What about the interesting story, the charismatic characters, the villains, the variety of places you visit, the variety of gameplay mechanics that doesnt suck...

Oh wait, all these things you dont know about because you quited.

You should beat the game before complaining.

There's nothing bad about the game, just wrong expectations, and lack of skills I assume.
 
R

Retro_

Unconfirmed Member
Jak 1 is worst Jak, that is all.

Yeah that was the least fun one for me

I kinda liked what Jak 2 turned it into. The whole tropical island collectathon platformer was played out as fuck on the N64. I liked seeing them bring guns into the mix and the dystopian future setting was still interesting to me at that point.(trend got played out this gen)

Gunplay in Jak was more fun than it was in Ratchet to me. Probably because it focused on a core aresenal and Jak's mobility over a bunch of stupid joke guns
 

Vecks

Member
Jak II may be a mess in most regards. I didn't care for the open world, the dark story, and the shooting. But the platforming sections felt like a step up, even if the amount of platforming was probably diminished.
 
R

Retro_

Unconfirmed Member
Allow me to take a wild guess... it's probably the escape mission from the slums when you are coming back from the ruins on that area with a lot of water and the town on that section is built upon bridges above the water.

The enemies never stop coming, you have limited resources and you have endure endless waves and avoid damage as much as possible with no room to rest or place to stop. It's usually a mission that takes a lot of attempts to pass and can end up being very frustrating.

Personally I recommend using the shotgun and the punch move while progressing at a moderate pace and remembering to pause when the dropships show up and taking off any enemies coming from behind at that point.

That was actually one of my favorite sections in the game. I loved trying to run through it top speed pulling off tricks because I learned where enemies came from through failure. Doing shit like double jumping towards a guy than using the shotgun to kill him while boosting myself to the next part of the bridge is what sold me on the game mechanics.

I wish the game had more sections like that.

Jak 2 > Jak 1 > Jak 3

Jak 3 had potential to be better than 1 but most of the game is spent in cars in the desert so fuck that. The actual light/dark world platforming is great but little else.

Yeah I agree

I also felt light eco was stupid and while all the final bosses were underwhelming, giving you unlimited light eco(unlimited health) to fight that goober from the race in the last game was beyond disappointing to me
 

AniHawk

Member
well it's no secret that i hate this game and i think it represents when naughty dog seriously lost the plot when it came to game development. dark schala pointed me to a postmortem from daniel arey shortly after the game was released. i'm not going to post the whole thing, but it confirmed a lot of my suspicions of the mindset of the people developing it. people who claimed to have respect for the genre and games that influenced them, but in reality looked down on their contemporaries.

We looked deeply at the current state of platform gaming, and although we had tremendous respect for those who had shaped the genre, we felt that after breaking through the 3D dam and flooding down the ravine of possibilities, platform games had run their current course. We saw the genre suffering from a general malaise and a waning audience, and we were convinced that this atrophy was due primarily to lack of innovation in a changing market, especially in light of new gaming paradigms that had evolved. Gone were the days when coin collect-a-thons in neon bright worlds were enough to excite players. The maturing videogame audience wanted more realistic themes and intense experiences, and platform games had the decidedly uncool stigma of G-movie kiddie fare. Naughty Dog decided that if we could make JAK II more mature, add a deeper emotional layer to the action, and increase the entertainment value of the entire experience, we could reignite interest in action platforming.

keep in mind this is 2002. just six short years after super mario 64, it was decided that the platforming genre had been pushed as far as it would go. while naughty dog was right with the idea that collectathons were a thing of the past, they bought heavily into the idea that kid-friendly meant bad. more worryingly is the word 'uncool' and the idea that a new aesthetic and artistic direction was what it took to make these games appeal to a wide audience again, instead of looking for new and appealing ways to platform in 3d space.

'what went right'
Jak gets a pair.

excuse my snide editorial laugh.

Recognizing the changing audience, our biggest goal for JAK II was to mature the universe. We wanted to remain true to the original vision of the first game but add more maturity to the visual style. This decision required extensive exploration by the art department, starting naturally with the central hero. Since the first game was about Daxter's transformation, we decided early on that JAK II would be Jak's story and his evolution. Daxter was already a resounding success, having been named "Original Game Character of the Year" in the second annual Game Developers Choice Awards, but Jak was a different story. Extensive feedback told us that Jak had less personality than a slug on Prozac.

a change in art direction isn't really that bad, and listening to feedback isn't bad either, but naughty dog really didn't get why daxter was appealing in 2001. it seems the lessons taken away were that people actually cared about daxter's transformation in jak and daxter, and it was daxter's inner-turmoil that people enjoyed- not that he was a fast-talking humor machine.

probably the most alarming part is that this is the first thing of 'what went right'. instead of viewing elements of design, they start looking at artistic elements (visual style, writing). actually, this becomes something of a theme throughout the article.

The story was also given a darker edge and swam in more adult themes like revenge, love, betrayal, and death, all rare elements in platform games. Even though the game still retained much of the cartoon feel, the new designs shed some of their earlier iconic sugar coating, moving the game more toward the mainstream Playstation 2 audience.

there's also a lot of talk about appealing to the mainstream ps2 audience. it's already been mentioned a couple of times, but it's a recurring theme with the development process of this game. there's this idea that the ps2 audience was an adult, mature and culturally-savvy one, and didn't have time for childish endeavors. so naughty dog made a game for a made-up group of people.

The story evolved into 90 minutes of cinematic sequences linked inexorably to gameplay. This tight coupling between game and story required specifics in the dialogue that locked down play elements to an uncomfortable degree. As we recorded and animated the scenes, it became increasingly difficult to eliminate or adjust gameplay because of these links. To combat this, we kept the story as flexible as possible without breaking the causeand-effect chain by having a few alternate recordings for vital plot and character revelations attached to a variety of backup gameplay tasks. We also built in what we called stand-alone levels, which, if needed, we could excise from the game (and the schedule) without greatly affecting the story experience.

keep in mind this is still in the 'what went right' section, and now they're talking about how they were focusing on the story so much that they built levels with the sole purpose they could be cut from the game without hurting the story. i can't even fathom how they came to the conclusion that level design was that inferior to story in a platformer.

Making the huge city hub for JAK II (20 times the size of a single JAK AND DAXTER level) was a massive undertaking but well worth the investment. By adding this "game within a game" to the platform experience, we hoped to create a new expression of the genre. The sense of place and purpose was designed to keep the player plugged into the world as never before. Gamers weren't just playing a succession of platform levels; they were visiting a "breathing" universe.

i think the only thing to take away from this is the pride in having created a city, and not the problems with the design of the city or interacting with the environment and characters. there's almost a sense of back-patting for having created a hubworld just for the way it looks.

i won't quote the full thing, but they do talk about the programming challenges in having created the city. and i can appreciate that. it did sound complex, but i never thought it was a necessary addition to the game and actually hurt the overall experience. the design of the city is never discussed outside of how it related to programming issues:

Memory and load constraints dictated how fast we could drive through the streets, and loading limits and line-of-sight issues forced the city to be more mazelike than we had originally intended. Since the entire city obviously couldn't fit into memory, load planes were painstakingly placed to hide the actual geometry swaps, and visual pop-ins were slowly tested out of existence (well, almost).

there's also discussion of the shooting mechanics and i kind of agree where they're coming from that the few weapons reinforced an idea of skill over mindless shooting (like ratchet & clank).

Ultimately the diversity of JAK IPs gameplay became its biggest strength and our proudest achievement. It's difficult to label JAK II simply a platform game, since there are so many gameplay types folded together. jumping isn't the primary player response in JAK II. You also get to drive multiple vehicles in a huge city (including a stadium with highspeed race courses), create havoc with a solid run-and-gun shooting element and multiple upgradeable gun types, trick and grind anywhere with a TONY HAWK-style JetBoard, crash-and-smash the world with a Titan Powersuit, play mini-games, and work with characters in AI-assisted escort tasks. Our goal was to achieve a diversity of gameplay in JAK II that would keep the game fresh for the player, and the challenges evolving.

this kind of reminds me of the wonderful 101 and the many game types it introduces in its 20-hour playtime. i'll let ian malcom explain:

'i'll tell you the problem with the scientific power that you're using here, it didn't require any discipline to attain it. you read what others had done and you took the next step. you didn't earn the knowledge for yourselves, so you don't take any responsibility for it. you stood on the shoulders of geniuses to accomplish something as fast as you could, and before you even knew what you had, you patented it, and packaged it, and slapped it on a plastic lunchbox, and now you're selling it, you wanna sell it.'

and now, 'what went wrong':

Facing the music (again). Our Achilles' heel of late, the sound and music spec became a monstrous datawrangling challenge. The sheer quantity of in-game events, foley effects linked to movies, and various other sound issues became a logistical nightmare. Add to that the in-game music and scoring for the large array of cinematic scenes, and you can see how quickly the problem multiplied. The biggest sound challenge in open gaming is that you can't simply load a discrete bank of sounds in a closed environment and call it a day. JAK IPs open environments were always evolving, so we had to devise a complex system of bank swaps and loads.

...

Also, since some of our movies were being finished very late, we had our foley cinematic group working around the clock to finish the multitude of effects across 90 minutes of movie. We left them too little time in the end, and we missed some very important sound cues. The simple solution here: Don't send game objects and movies for sound and foley work right up until the last few days of production, and don't expect inhuman man-hours to make up the difference.

...

As we improved our methodology, we learned to be more generic with certain gameplay-specific numbers in the dialogue and to use screen overlays to convey details. When we really needed a specific number cited in a scene for some reason, we recorded many, many variations to give the designers and animators enough coverage. Then we blocked the shot so that the character speaking the offending (and likely variable) line could be either off-screen or conveniently in an over-the-shoulder shot, effectively hiding his lips, when the high-risk line was spoken. These techniques allowed any required changes to be easily dropped into the AIF later with no impact whatsoever on the animation side. Still, we lost considerable animation time to reworking before we defined and implemented these tricks.

...

We had some great particles very early, but as we went along, we realized that we needed more effects than we had budgeted for. Also, as the new highpolygon sets for cinematics came online, they too required a larger coverage of particle effects than we had expected. Add to that a breakdown in communication between departments about particle node placement and volume of particles in all levels, and some objects being completed very late, and you can see how the problem quickly escalated.

...

Memory being an ever-present constraint, the background artists had a challenging time taking a designer's level map and remaining true to the gameplay distances while still serving the production art guidelines for the level.

i cut out a lot, but the jist of it was the technical aspects of incorporating all the artistic elements- the actual management aspect of the game- that was what went wrong. there's no discussion, at all, regarding the design process and thinking behind the racing segments, the platforming segments, whether or not it was difficult to make all these separate elements work together. at no point in the entire article is the idea of learning what makes each element important brought up. simply the inclusions of those elements are thought of as positive additions to the game, and couldn't possibly take away from the overall enjoyment.

Despite the changing landscape of gaming, JAK II represents two hard years of work by a talented team of professionals dedicated to bridging a widening gap between old and new gaming. It was a tough haul, and we probably bit off more than we could chew, as many of the What Went Wrongs indicate. However, in the final analysis, we feel JAK II is the best game Naughty Dog has ever produced, and we are proud of the entertainment experience it represents.
 

FeD.nL

Member
And the whole jak needed to be gritty argument, I mean (or I am mistaken) but in 2003 that shift in tone was pretty unheard of. If you look at it today, yes it might be the whole it needs to be gritty thing that every game seems to have thing. But at that period I cannot think of any game that did that gritty stuff, most platformers I played were colorful like the first jak and daxter was. But I might be misremembering things.
 
I can talk about the crap accuracy, the poor enemy encounters, and the firing of the weapons being pisspoor all as issues of the gunplay being garbage. For example the escaping the slums mission is awful on multiple levels. First you have poor enemy design in that the game throws waves of enemies at you, second is that the player has to fight the game in regards to the gun accuracy, and third being that the player has no real way of approaching the scenario in any number of ways other than possibly trying to glitch out of the entire mission.

You're getting a bit better, but you're still not properly conveying what you don't like about each of the things you broke down.

"Poor enemy encounters" - why do you feel they were poor? What do you think should have been changed?

"firing of weapons is being pisspoor" - What exactly was wrong with the firing of weapons? Did you dislike the aiming? Do you feel they don't properly convey impact? Was the fire rate too slow? They were too weak? Enemies were too bullet-spongey?

First you have poor enemy design in that the game throws waves of enemies at you, second is that the player has to fight the game in regards to the gun accuracy, and third being that the player has no real way of approaching the scenario in any number of ways other than possibly trying to glitch out of the entire mission.

Did you really dislike the shooting or was it that you found that particular section upsetting due to it's difficulty?

There are several ways to approach it, both a running tactic with focus on punching/knocking enemies away or "stop-shoot and then move" tactics work.

Again you're breaking down your argument in parts, but you're still criticising each of those parts in pretty much the same way which is to say, that you aren't saying very much other than just insulting them.

I'm trying to reason with you and have a dialogue, but instead of explaining things you're reacting in the way that I'd expect a minor to if I asked him to describe whats wrong with something.

"What's wrong with school Timmy?" "It sucks!" "Why does it suck Timmy?" "The teachers suck, the kids suck, everything sucks!"

Look back at your own responses and you'll see that you're not straying too far from this type of behaviour.
 

Axass

Member
Jak II feels like a robbery.

It whispers into your ears: <<buy me, so you'll have a great time in a magical platforming world, full of colours and collectibles, just like our first time together>>.

Then when you play it, you realize that it's just a poor man's GTA.
 

Village

Member
Yeah that was the least fun one for me

I kinda liked what Jak 2 turned it into. The whole tropical island collectathon platformer was played out as fuck on the N64. I liked seeing them bring guns into the mix and the dystopian future setting was still interesting to me at that point.(trend got played out this gen)

Gunplay in Jak was more fun than it was in Ratchet to me. Probably because it focused on a core aresenal and Jak's mobility over a bunch of stupid joke guns

And end the end I respect Jak becoming its own thing rather than Crash bandicoot with lemmings.
 

shintoki

sparkle this bitch
Prince of Persia: Warrior Within did suffer a similar fate, but at the same time it managed to actually be far more bearable than Jak II and Shadow the Hedgehog. They completely ruined the soundtrack and storyline in the process though. I do love the concept of the Dahaka though, and the game's storyline isn't too bad when not compared to any of the other titles in the series.

Platforming and combat ended up getting a nice improvement and it was overall an enjoyable game, just a complete disappoint coming from Sands of Time. On the bright side, The Two Thrones ended up being a great way to finish the trilogy and made fans of either of the first two titles happy.

WW while changing up the atmosphere, still kept the gameplay. And it even improved on a few things. Its a game that really needed someone to say, Really? You want to do that. Otherwise it was still a solid entry.

Jak II on the other hand is the very definition of a developer shitting on their fans. I can't think of a game worse for it. Let's change everything up and for the worse.
 

Jarmel

Banned
You're getting a bit better, but you're still not properly conveying what you don't like about each of the things you broke down.

"Poor enemy encounters" - why do you feel they were poor? What do you think should have been changed?

"firing of weapons is being pisspoor" - What exactly was wrong with the firing of weapons? Did you dislike the aiming? Do you feel they don't properly convey impact? Was the fire rate too slow? They were too weak? Enemies were too bullet-spongey?

There isn't any thought put into the enemy encounters such as the layout of the player juxtaposed against the position of the enemies. The game will just drop enemies on the map and you just kill them. My job isn't to say how the game should be fixed, that's the job of the game developers.

There isn't any decent aiming system. That's the biggest issue. This causes the player to feel like they're fighting against the game to place accurate shots and not waste ammo. There is also a lack of impact from the weapon firing system. There isn't any sense of recoil that makes the firing itself feel satisfactory. The firing rate itself though was fine for most of the weapons. The shooting is flat and inaccurate. The camera also being bad can tie into this as well, but that's more of an issue with the platforming sections.

The enemies are also kinda crap in that they don't display any sort of intelligent AI or do anything to make the gunfights two way instead of the player just firing straight into them.

Did you really dislike the shooting or was it that you found that particular section upsetting due to it's difficulty?

There are several ways to approach it, both a running tactic with focus on punching/knocking enemies away or "stop-shoot and then move" tactics work.

Again you're breaking down your argument in parts, but you're still criticising each of those parts in pretty much the same way which is to say, that you aren't saying very much other than just insulting them.

It's not just that section, that section is the best example though of the game's failings. Another awful mission is Rescue Friends at Fortress. The game just throws waves of enemies at you at times and there is nothing fun about it.

You can't really stop and move, you have to keep pushing forward, otherwise you'll be bogged down. It's poor level design in that you're really forced along this narrow pathway, which you can be knocked off of, where you fight enemies that can spawn in any number of directions that can shoot you offscreen. There are very little avenues the player can do to make it easier except possibly 'game' the game in that you divebomb the water in Dark Jak mode or get lucky and can hoverboard your way out(which certainly is an issue of luck).

I'm trying to reason with you and have a dialogue, but instead of explaining things you're reacting in the way that I'd expect a minor to if I asked him to describe whats wrong with something.

"What's wrong with school Timmy?" "It sucks!" "Why does it suck Timmy?" "The teachers suck, the kids suck, everything sucks!"

Look back at your own responses and you'll see that you're not straying too far from this type of behaviour.

And oh please, enough with the histrionics. I and other people in this thread have noted what is wrong with the gunplay.
 

KmA

Member
Jak III is the best in the series if you disagree you're wrong.

Jak II was trying a bit too hard but I was totally into it since I beat it when I was like 10.
 
I'm trying to reason with you and have a dialogue, but instead of explaining things you're reacting in the way that I'd expect a minor to if I asked him to describe whats wrong with something.

"What's wrong with school Timmy?" "It sucks!" "Why does it suck Timmy?" "The teachers suck, the kids suck, everything sucks!"

Look back at your own responses and you'll see that you're not straying too far from this type of behaviour.

I have no horse in this race, but jesus fuck dude, lay off already. This is an entirely fruitless and insulting avenue of discussion and it's all you've really done in the entire thread. The anti-Jak 2 folks have been plenty specific with their complaints to make their point.
 

chemicals

Member
I love the first J&D... I remember I first got the chance to play it shortly after purchasing a Gamecube and Mario Sunshine... being a massive platforming fan, I was amazed at how much BETTER a game J&D was compared to Mario Sunshine. It remains one of my favorite platformers of all time.

Jak 2 is one of those games that I played for a few hours just because the first one was so damn good... but WOW, what a let down. Jak 2 is garbage. (3 wasn't as bad).. the sequels are so much weaker than the first game.. it's almost insulting, really.
 

Kaswa101

Member
I never finished Jak 3 or Jak X. Precursor Legacy is one of my favourite platformers though - it was amazing for its time. Jak 2 was quite meh though imo; crazy difficulty spikes, unnecessary dark tone, annoying gun and vehicle combat. ND really should have just expanded on J&D instead of going all GTA on the franchise.

Seriously, what the hell were they thinking?
 
Having a lifebar but everything kills you in two or three hits
Bumping into a citizen with your bike means Krimzon Guard will chase you halfway across the city
The city itself just being huge for no reason; I can't even remember if you do story missions there, or just fetch quests
No creative uses for Dark Jak; he's basically a smart bomb
Getting the Legacy of Kain writer to draw up the plot, and it's a complete clusterfuck of ideas as the result of likely too much focus testing

I dropped it like a quarter of the way through. Jak 3 is an improvement, but the vehicle controls suck
 
I have no horse in this race, but jesus fuck dude, lay off already. This is an entirely fruitless and insulting avenue of discussion and it's all you've really done in the entire thread. The anti-Jak 2 folks have been plenty specific with their complaints to make their point.

I wasn't discussing this matter with you but let's have a look at the comments made by the person I'm discussing this with:

The gameplay is awful. I have no clue why people are saying otherwise in this thread. The shooting mechanics are garbage, the camera is crap for some of the platforming sections, the hoverboard can be unnecessarily floaty (which sucks due to how necessary it is at times), the driving mechanics are awful as well.

Let's look at his criticism: "gameplay is awful" "shooting mechanics are crap", "camera is crap", "hovermechanics can be unnecessarily floaty (which sucks ...)", "driving mechanics are awful".

None of this is constructive and all of his other replies were between him and other people debating semantics and the importance of shooting in Jak 2. I was trying to get him to explain in more detail more precisely what things he disliked about the game, not trying to insult him.

I can talk about the crap accuracy, the poor enemy encounters, and the firing of the weapons being pisspoor all as issues of the gunplay being garbage. For example the escaping the slums mission is awful on multiple levels. First you have poor enemy design in that the game throws waves of enemies at you, second is that the player has to fight the game in regards to the gun accuracy, and third being that the player has no real way of approaching the scenario in any number of ways other than possibly trying to glitch out of the entire mission.

"crap accuracy", "poor enemy encounters" "firing of the weapons being pisspoor all as issues of the gunplay being garbage". You think this is specific or constructive?

Then he goes on to detail a section of the game that has an immense difficulty spike and was, in my opinion, a bit poorly designed. But he explains little more than his frustrations with the encounter.

There are things in Jak 2 I do not like but I can be specific about them and break them down in detail and I don't think that saying something "crap" or "sucks" counts as valid criticism. It comes off to me as simply a vapid flaming response and nothing can be gained from them.
 

foxuzamaki

Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
well it's no secret that i hate this game and i think it represents when naughty dog seriously lost the plot when it came to game development. dark schala pointed me to a postmortem from daniel arey shortly after the game was released. i'm not going to post the whole thing, but it confirmed a lot of my suspicions of the mindset of the people developing it. people who claimed to have respect for the genre and games that influenced them, but in reality looked down on their contemporaries.



keep in mind this is 2002. just six short years after super mario 64, it was decided that the platforming genre had been pushed as far as it would go. while naughty dog was right with the idea that collectathons were a thing of the past, they bought heavily into the idea that kid-friendly meant bad. more worryingly is the word 'uncool' and the idea that a new aesthetic and artistic direction was what it took to make these games appeal to a wide audience again, instead of looking for new and appealing ways to platform in 3d space.

'what went right'


excuse my snide editorial laugh.



a change in art direction isn't really that bad, and listening to feedback isn't bad either, but naughty dog really didn't get why daxter was appealing in 2001. it seems the lessons taken away were that people actually cared about daxter's transformation in jak and daxter, and it was daxter's inner-turmoil that people enjoyed- not that he was a fast-talking humor machine.

probably the most alarming part is that this is the first thing of 'what went right'. instead of viewing elements of design, they start looking at artistic elements (visual style, writing). actually, this becomes something of a theme throughout the article.



there's also a lot of talk about appealing to the mainstream ps2 audience. it's already been mentioned a couple of times, but it's a recurring theme with the development process of this game. there's this idea that the ps2 audience was an adult, mature and culturally-savvy one, and didn't have time for childish endeavors. so naughty dog made a game for a made-up group of people.



keep in mind this is still in the 'what went right' section, and now they're talking about how they were focusing on the story so much that they built levels with the sole purpose they could be cut from the game without hurting the story. i can't even fathom how they came to the conclusion that level design was that inferior to story in a platformer.



i think the only thing to take away from this is the pride in having created a city, and not the problems with the design of the city or interacting with the environment and characters. there's almost a sense of back-patting for having created a hubworld just for the way it looks.

i won't quote the full thing, but they do talk about the programming challenges in having created the city. and i can appreciate that. it did sound complex, but i never thought it was a necessary addition to the game and actually hurt the overall experience. the design of the city is never discussed outside of how it related to programming issues:



there's also discussion of the shooting mechanics and i kind of agree where they're coming from that the few weapons reinforced an idea of skill over mindless shooting (like ratchet & clank).



this kind of reminds me of the wonderful 101 and the many game types it introduces in its 20-hour playtime. i'll let ian malcom explain:

'i'll tell you the problem with the scientific power that you're using here, it didn't require any discipline to attain it. you read what others had done and you took the next step. you didn't earn the knowledge for yourselves, so you don't take any responsibility for it. you stood on the shoulders of geniuses to accomplish something as fast as you could, and before you even knew what you had, you patented it, and packaged it, and slapped it on a plastic lunchbox, and now you're selling it, you wanna sell it.'

and now, 'what went wrong':



i cut out a lot, but the jist of it was the technical aspects of incorporating all the artistic elements- the actual management aspect of the game- that was what went wrong. there's no discussion, at all, regarding the design process and thinking behind the racing segments, the platforming segments, whether or not it was difficult to make all these separate elements work together. at no point in the entire article is the idea of learning what makes each element important brought up. simply the inclusions of those elements are thought of as positive additions to the game, and couldn't possibly take away from the overall enjoyment.

It sucks that your post was looked over.
 
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