Aintitcool
Banned
After watching the new Nvidia Siggraph conference I finally see how VR could really be the future. Ofcourse we are still very far from that at 120Hz. So maybe in 20 years.
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Ray tracing in VR will be the biggest breakthrough for VR.
- Thread starter Aintitcool
- Start date
MultiCore
Member
Ray tracing is what gaming is waiting for too. Any rendering path that wants realism wants ray tracing.
It fixes so much so in one fell swoop. Shadows, reflections, caustics, ambient occlusion, godrays...
But yeah, there's a reason pro rendering takes minutes per frame, and as quality improves even as hardware performance improves, render times are as long as you're willing to tolerate.
It fixes so much so in one fell swoop. Shadows, reflections, caustics, ambient occlusion, godrays...
But yeah, there's a reason pro rendering takes minutes per frame, and as quality improves even as hardware performance improves, render times are as long as you're willing to tolerate.
DarthBuzzer
Member
VR actually has an extreme advantage with ray-tracing. Since we're not far off from eye-tracked foveated rendering, details in VR will only need to be accounted for in your fovea. Resolution is the first one, when you cut back 90% of the pixels, your GPU performance goes up by 10x (obviously dependent on pixel shader optimization but 10x should be fairly common in a few years) which will eventually climb to 15x or maybe higher since the gains increased with higher FoV.
But this can be used for raytracing too, by reducing the number of ray samples dramatically and only paying the cost for rays in the fovea region. The gains will be around the same again, making it 10-15x easier on the GPU to do raytracing for VR.
We're going to switch from VR being harder to render today to VR being much easier to render.
But this can be used for raytracing too, by reducing the number of ray samples dramatically and only paying the cost for rays in the fovea region. The gains will be around the same again, making it 10-15x easier on the GPU to do raytracing for VR.
We're going to switch from VR being harder to render today to VR being much easier to render.
magnumpy
Member
ZehDon
Gold Member
This thread is kinda of weird; what examples did you see that demonstrated that ray tracing inside the VR space is the future of the VR? A link? Summary? Anything?
In any case: ray tracing can produce some incredible visuals, no question, but the performance cost is obscene. It's why we largely don't use it. Utilising nVidia's new non-consumer grade hardware, we're now able to produce visuals on par with early original Xbox games in real-time:
The shadow, lighting, and reflection quality is significantly better than that era, but the visuals take an enormous hit. We're decades away from hardware at a consumer level that could meet the gaming industry standards. Outside of real-time rendering, we see some pretty terrific results in terms of modelling and development:
This is enterprise level stuff, but it's interesting none-the-less.
This type of technology isn't outside of our reach, it's just that quality of it so far beneath what we'd be prepared to accept:
Ray tracing in tandem with typical rendering techniques could yield some fairly incredible results. We see some of this in global illumination solutions and reflection passes in modern engines. But, shifting all rendering to ray tracing? Not likely; it's a waste of the hardware for the results, and will be for decades. The horse power needed to full off proper ray tracing could be spent faking the same output in a game engine with so much overhead to spare developers would be spoiled for choice.
In any case: ray tracing can produce some incredible visuals, no question, but the performance cost is obscene. It's why we largely don't use it. Utilising nVidia's new non-consumer grade hardware, we're now able to produce visuals on par with early original Xbox games in real-time:
The shadow, lighting, and reflection quality is significantly better than that era, but the visuals take an enormous hit. We're decades away from hardware at a consumer level that could meet the gaming industry standards. Outside of real-time rendering, we see some pretty terrific results in terms of modelling and development:
This is enterprise level stuff, but it's interesting none-the-less.
This type of technology isn't outside of our reach, it's just that quality of it so far beneath what we'd be prepared to accept:
Ray tracing in tandem with typical rendering techniques could yield some fairly incredible results. We see some of this in global illumination solutions and reflection passes in modern engines. But, shifting all rendering to ray tracing? Not likely; it's a waste of the hardware for the results, and will be for decades. The horse power needed to full off proper ray tracing could be spent faking the same output in a game engine with so much overhead to spare developers would be spoiled for choice.
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DarthBuzzer
Member
Machine learning has already resulted in significant improvements to reducing ray samples. Foveated Rendering is even more promising.
Full raytracing in VR is easier to achieve than you think.
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That first video linked demonstrates all the problems reducing ray-samples brings (basically it's taking steps backwards in temporal stability again). And it's not like we're currently doing great in that regard - lots of standard rasterization stuff that is accepted as good/great quality on 2d-panels looks dreadfully poor in VR.
Most of the benefits of this will be eaten by catching-up to "retina" resolution in VR HMDs - basically just going into increasing raw-pixel counts. The major short-term benefit of RT acceleration is actually making non-linear projection performant - which will benefit standard rasterization too.
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ZehDon
Gold Member
Can you post some examples of the machine learning output and how it’s improved? I haven’t seen much in this regard.
As for Foveated rendering, this technique is using eye tracking to control quality spheres in output rendering. Stuff outside your primary focus doesn’t need to be rendered at full resolution, saving performance. Ray Tracing would still neee to be done in these areas of your view - and flicker effect we see in the output would be ever present. I think there’s some merit here, agreed, but as I mentioned above - faking the output on the same hardware will be more than enough for decades, doubly so given the enormous performance requirements for VR. Full 4K ray tracing at 120hz stereo? Not for a very long time.
eot
Banned
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Then again it's doing what it's doing (namely throwing 300G polys at the frustum) with minimal effort at temporal AA. It's not like a rasterizer would achieve temporal AA effortlessly -- it's just the fact a rasterizer would be plainly unable to handle the scene, so a LOD system would be mandatory if the scene were to have any chance of being rasterized at this fps. This raytraced scene uses no LOD, but nothing precludes it from.
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LucidFeuer
Banned
Poor people who think real-time raytracing is a near thing...
You won't see a SINGLE experience, let alone game, using RTRT until at least 10 years in the future, and this is an optimistic guess.
The only thing you might see are pre-rendered "holograms" like ORBX or Google Seurat, but as far as I'm concerned they're varpoware.
However if you want the only single way to get a "snapshot" of what the future will look like, get a VR headset and download a stereocube map. This is one of my favorite prospective demo to get clients hyped on VR and game's future.
You won't see a SINGLE experience, let alone game, using RTRT until at least 10 years in the future, and this is an optimistic guess.
The only thing you might see are pre-rendered "holograms" like ORBX or Google Seurat, but as far as I'm concerned they're varpoware.
However if you want the only single way to get a "snapshot" of what the future will look like, get a VR headset and download a stereocube map. This is one of my favorite prospective demo to get clients hyped on VR and game's future.
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Well that's been the promise (and the main argument for eventual crossing of streams) for ray-tracing over other approaches since day one - scaling to much larger data sets/geometric complexity without other "tricks". In fact it's been over a decade(that I know of) since first demos of RT outperforming rasterization under large-data set(contrived) scenarios. I'd argue not-having to rely on LOD as much should also lead to improvements in temporal stability that I've been complaining about for the past 15 years - but I digress.
I wasn't just referencing AA here - de-noising methods are the same general principle, you're fabricating data, which is likely to be first(and most) noticeable in motion artifacts - and if it somehow isn't - we should be celebrating as it would also mean we can suddenly start doing 4k a hell of a lot cheaper...
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Racer!
Member
nemiroff
Gold Member
No matter when we'll reach full implementation via consumer GPUs, no one can deny it's a good thing that Nvidia finally made a somewhat tangible start and a push that we haven't really seen before. At first devs will start play around with it, and then they will most likely partially inject it into their games throughout the next few years. Then hopefully it will be in full force some time in the not so distant gaming (and other real time use) future. So the way I'm looking at it, this is a ray tracing kickstarter.
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BackBackPunch
Member
That GPU costs $10,000 (Correction: Apparently it will also run on the $6300 version), and its a Quadro, which is a workstation GPU, not a consumer GPU. It is going to be a LONG time before that level of performance is in an affordable consumer GPU (and this is just the first gen of this technology).
And those demos aren't rendering a full game environment, either.
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CuNi
Member
Are you sure we're watching the same nvidia conference? I see quality close to it in 1 GPU already. Can't wait to see how the next GPU generation will perform.
Racer!
Member
It runs on a 2080TI @ 999 dollars
You guys are smoking some weird shit We are about 1 year from 7nm , which will probably atleast double the performance. Then AMD will probably be ready with their 7nm raytracing answer and prices could come down even more. From 7nm the transition to smaller nodes will go faster because of EUV, atleast down to 3nm. Future of graphics looking bright.
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Alexander DeLarge
Member
20 years???
If my Vive had foveated rendering sensors and functionality, I bet I could do it without a RTX card right now just fine on my system.
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BackBackPunch
Member
It runs on a 2080TI @ 999 dollars
We are about 1 year from 7nm , which will probably atleast double the performance. Then AMD will probably be ready with their 7nm raytracing answer and prices could come down even more. From 7nm the transition to smaller nodes will go faster because of EUV, atleast down to 3nm. Future of graphics looking bright.
My comment was pre-conference-- at that point, it had only been demoed on the Quadros. Now it seems that the consumer cards can also run the demos as well
EDIT: It is important to note that the intention with these cards isn't to run fully ray traced games-- the idea is to ray trace certain components, and to continue using existing graphical techniques for other things. Like the Tomb Raider example; they're ray tracing shadows, but lighting and AO are still not ray traced.
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Racer!
Member
My comment was pre-conference-- at that point, it had only been demoed on the Quadros. Now it seems that the consumer cards can also run the demos as well
EDIT: It is important to note that the intention with these cards isn't to run fully ray traced games-- the idea is to ray trace certain components, and to continue using existing graphical techniques for other things. Like the Tomb Raider example; they're ray tracing shadows, but lighting and AO are still not ray traced.
The demo they had with the 2 robots, was fully ray traced and ran on 2080TI. For games its hybrid rendering for now, but with the upcoming 7nm and then 5nm (2023) games will probably be close to fully ray traced.
Aintitcool
Banned
Are you sure about that? You do know that A.I is used with ray tracing to do full scenes now.
There is actually lots of delay in that demo, many rays and reflections don't go at the speed of light.(which is impossible anyway but they get close digitally) Also the headlights have the wrong materials and to my eyes still looks fake. But porche made that demo, and I give them a break because they are car makers not real time graphics experts.
The title of the thread is about ray tracing.
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LucidFeuer
Banned
Oh I just happen to have worked on engines for years, and trust me, you won't see a single RTRT game until at least 10 years in the future (and that's optimistic).
Racer!
Member
A few posts back you said it would take 10 years for a RTRT experience, and today they have shown several? Are you a car mechanic?
Racer!
Member
Aintitcool
Banned
We have had 2d screens for how long? And you think they are eh? nah bro they work just fine. Although 3d screen oleds were the fucking best.
Spukc
always chasing the next thrill
nah what i meant to say silly.
is that 2d graphics don't make the same jumps anymore graphically.
when i tried vr for the first time upgrading my gpu made sense again.
so if there would be a reason for me to upgrade it would be for vr.
as better reflections is really eh imo
LucidFeuer
Banned
Do you know for how long RTRT has been a purported working things? 20 years. Yup you can find RTRT demos as far back as the late 90s to more recent ones like this one
The fact that it took two experimental 10,000$ GPUs to just render a static cars with a few instanced light should tell you about how far is RTRT for VR experiences, let alone games...
There are lots of steps that are going to come before, there's not even a single game using VGXI (Voxel-based RT-like global illumination), and DX12/Vulkan are not even generalised. So really don't hold your horses for RTRT games it's way further down the line than these marketing announcement want to make you believe.
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