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[BiGBoSSMk23]

Has any FPS implemented euphoria-like hit detection?

I was recently playing Wolfenstein and it made me think how cool it would be to watch an enemy react differently to getting stabbed in different areas, as opposed to a precanned kill animation.

Stab in the back, fall to the ground and try to shoot you while they grab at their stomach.

Stab in the arm/leg, tumble away trying to shoot you.

Stab in the head, insta-ragdoll.

Stab in the neck, 5 seconds till they go limp, can still sound alarm if you don't finish then quick.

Basically, no more precanned animations.

Everything organic and physics based.

 

[BiGBoSSMk23]

 

[bomblord1]

eschewing how absolutely gruesome that sounds how would you realistically implement this?

 

[benny_a]

It could be Killzone 2 used Euphoria. It certainly had great hit reactions.

I think the studio as a whole is currently using Euphoria, as they are looking for programmers that have experience with it.

 

[Arkhanor]

Perfect Dark (and Goldeneye 007) has some animations / hit detection like this.

 

[PreFire]

MGS 2 had cool hit detection at times. If you shot an enemy on the hand he would shake it and not be able to raise it.. And if you shot his leg he would limp.

Max Payne 3 has pretty good hit detection. Plus the AI is excellent

 

[BiGBoSSMk23]

eschewing how absolutely gruesome that sounds how would you realistically implement this?

Are you talking about tech constraints? It shouldn't be that taxing.

Not for a game structured like BLACK for example.

Also, in a world where MKX exists what I'm asking for is relatively tame.

Dynamic vs. precanned doesn't affect how gruesome something is.

It could be Killzone 2 used Euphoria. It certainly had great hit reactions.

I think the studio as a whole is currently using Euphoria, as they are looking for programmers that have experience with it.

KZ2 was good but not quite... That's good that they're using euphoria though.

 

[Sora the Cat]

Didn't play it myself, but I think killzone does this.

Also MGS has been doing something like this since Sons of Liberty. It blew my mind back in the day, not the physics part, I'm talking about the reaction of the enemy itself after getting shot in different parts of his body.

 

[Squatch4299]

I would really like this actually. The old COD games were some of the worst offenders of the preset animations. No matter what you did they would kind of fall stiffly to the ground in a very unrealistic manner. I'd love to see it done where if they are shot in the arm they don't just flinch but their arm flies back as the shot turns them sideways. And then weather it was their trigger arm or not depends on if they can still shoot at you. This could go deeper such as enemies showing realistic injuries. Take my example of being shot in the arm. That character should then have the arm dangling depending on the severity of the shot. Same as legs and maybe they can't walk now or have to be on one knee. But it all is obviously very easy for my to sit here and type. It's a whole other story trying to implement it.

 

[TI82]

I remember the Soldier of Fortune series was supposed to be like this, dunno if it actually achieved its goal though

 

[BiGBoSSMk23]

MGS 2 had cool hit detection at times. If you shot an enemy on the hand he would shake it and not be able to raise it.. And if you shot his leg he would limp.

Max Payne 3 has pretty good hit detection. Plus the AI is excellent

Yeah, those are close but they're still scripted.

I'm talking about something akin to Binary Domain where the enemies react like parts of their machines are malfunctioning as you shoot them until realistically you're just wasting bullets.

But of course with tumbly physics like Euphoria.

Would make for a fun, messy shoot em up, especially one featuring Zombies.

 

[Newtype-001]

 

[Screaming Meat]

Yeah, those are close but they're still scripted.

MP3 uses Euphoria.

 

[bomblord1]

Are you talking about tech constraints? It shouldn't be that taxing.

Not for a game structured like BLACK for example.

Also, in a world where MKX exists what I'm asking for is relatively tame.

Dynamic vs. precanned doesn't affect how gruesome something is.



KZ2 was good but not quite... That's good that they're using euphoria though.

I can't help but think it would have to a massive undertaking in order to intertwine the physics and AI like that to be able to react completely differently and realistically to being hit in different spots and none if it being precanned . You would have to take into account an absolute ton of information and the AI would have to be very intelligent to react accordingly and the physics engine incredibly accurate as well.

 

[AlexBasch]

Ctrl + F

I remember the Soldier of Fortune series was supposed to be like this, dunno if it actually achieved its goal though

DenzelWashingtonMyN.jpg

Yeah, I still remember how back in the day I was like "DID YOU FUCKING BLEW THAT GUY'S LEG OFF WITH A SHOTGUN?" and how different parts of the body reacted to shots. Of course, it was done long ago, but I would like to see something like this again.

Max Payne 3, maybe? Gunshots felt powerful and painful, instead of pea shooting into a body with the X marks.

 

[DOWN]

Max Payne 3 uses Euphoria and had very good hit detection

 

[joecanada]

I would really like this actually. The old COD games were some of the worst offenders of the preset animations. No matter what you did they would kind of fall stiffly to the ground in a very unrealistic manner. I'd love to see it done where if they are shot in the arm they don't just flinch but their arm flies back as the shot turns them sideways. And then weather it was their trigger arm or not depends on if they can still shoot at you. This could go deeper such as enemies showing realistic injuries. Take my example of being shot in the arm. That character should then have the arm dangling depending on the severity of the shot. Same as legs and maybe they can't walk now or have to be on one knee. But it all is obviously very easy for my to sit here and type. It's a whole other story trying to implement it.

I like Skyrim where you club someone qnd they fall diagonally to the ground like a wooden statue lol...
Great game but garbage combat.

Fallout vats system is kinda cool and the ability to limp an opponent is kinda neat

 

[bathsalts]

Would make for a fun, messy shoot em up, especially one featuring Zombies.

Killing Floor 2 sounds like what your describing

 

[Manu]

I remember the Soldier of Fortune series was supposed to be like this, dunno if it actually achieved its goal though

Came to mention Soldier of Fortune.

I remember being shocked back in the day at how realistic its violence was depicted.

 

[TI82]

Ctrl + F


DenzelWashingtonMyN.jpg

Yeah, I still remember how back in the day I was like "DID YOU FUCKING BLEW THAT GUY'S LEG OFF WITH A SHOTGUN?" and how different parts of the body reacted to shots. Of course, it was done long ago, but I would like to see something like this again.

Max Payne 3, maybe? Gunshots felt powerful and painful, instead of pea shooting into a body with the X marks.

I remember the big hype over how it was the super gorey game lol. I know the one on 360 didn't review well but I never played any of them

 

[BennyBlanco]

Soldier of Fortune did it well back in the day

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U3osxTS9lk

 

[cavemancolton]

As far as online console FPS goes, Modern Warfare 2 is still unrivaled. That net code was excellent.

 

[DOWN]

Here's an example in MP3 with Euphoria. It was quite good overall.

 

[BiGBoSSMk23]

Yeah, looks neat but looks more like animation blending once the enemy has taken enough hits and the killshot triggers the routine.

Imagine an enemy getting hit by a stray bullet to the leg but still managing to half assedly fight.

I guess the issue would be balancing the difficulty, because if your character still take a more hits than a tank and the enemies get partly disabled once the bullets start flying, it would make the game super easy.

It would be neat for stealth FPS, where you can only take a bit of damage, and the enemies are scarce but tough, or a zombie shooter...

 

[Croatoan]

I am the developer of a Unity3d plugin called Bloody Mess that can do this if the person wishes. Initially the asset started as a simple dismemberment asset but it grew to include event signals based on hit location.

Essentially it works by placing colliders along the major bones and setting them to triggers (so they don't collide with anything). Then you label how you want (arm, leg, head) and use that label to send a signal, when they are hit by whatever means, to an AI (or whatever system you are using ) to do what you want.

There is hardly any processing cost but adding features like you describe are extremely animation heavy and thus its easy for them to get cut when you look at your animation budget. Added draw calls can keep stuff like that from getting added to games, in the case of dismemberment and spawning limbs, as well.

 

[Kindekuma]

MGS2 and 3 was awesome about that.

Killing Floor 2 also with shooting away specific limbs and whatnot.

 

[Raptor]

What I always wanted is that if I shot an enemy in the arm with a AR I want that arm to go flying and blood come out kill bill style and that such enemy reacts to that alternatively if I shot an arm I want that arm to go limb and I shot the other arm I want to him not be able to lift those arms at all and all that is left for him is get to cover, also, I want torsos, torsos to go flying, half bodies, legs, TLOU got really close to what I want in a shoter in terms of hit reactions and feedback.

I also want like shot a enemy in the leg and instead to kick him or punch him I want to take a machete out and chop the hands and legs clean up with blood spurring out kill bill style you know? pure great stuff.

Hit detection is very important aswell as feedback.

 

[Dictator93]

Euphoria combining ragdoll with animations, physics, and AI is kinda what you are getting at (although, with more gore).

Or the Star Citizen Aegis system and their physically based damage (which is exactly what you are looking for).

 

[Croatoan]

Here's an example in MP3 with Euphoria. It was quite good overall.

This is done with either force being applied to specific colliders after ragdolling or via an IK system. Its also possible the Euphoria system allows animation and ragodoll to work at the same time ( I have no clue since I don't have access to it) but given what I have seen of Euphoria in use this is not the case.

Basically when your ragdoll there is no animation, when you have animation you cannot ragdoll. It is possible to blend the two (like when characters get up from a ragdoll) but that wouldn't work for the above example. Since Ragdolls use physics/colliders and animations do not they would fight each other and really muck things up.

 

[BibiMaghoo]

This is done with either force being applied to specific colliders after ragdolling or via an IK system. Its also possible the Euphoria system allows animation and ragodoll to work at the same time ( I have no clue since I don't have access to it) but given what I have seen of Euphoria in use this is not the case.

Basically when your ragdoll there is no animation, when you have animation you cannot ragdoll. It is possible to blend the two (like when characters get up from a ragdoll) but that wouldn't work for the above example.

Basically the script detects a hit on what body part that

I kind of wondered about this, but are they separate colliders for each area, or are areas of a raycast hit or some such being defined as body parts, so to speak? For the force to work in this manner, there would need to be many, many colliders all over the model surely? The impact point 'seems' quite specific.

 

[methane47]

Killzone 2 the GOAT

 

[Caesar III]

Soldier of Fortune did it well back in the day
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U3osxTS9lk

It looked so much better in my head

 

[BiGBoSSMk23]

I am the developer of a Unity3d plugin called Bloody Mess that can do this if the person wishes. Initially the asset started as a simple dismemberment asset but it grew to include event signals based on hit location.

Essentially it works by placing colliders along the major bones and setting them to triggers (so they don't collide with anything). Then you label how you want (arm, leg, head) and use that label to send a signal, when they are hit by whatever means, to an AI (or whatever system you are using ) to do what you want.

There is hardly any processing cost but adding features like you describe are extremely animation heavy and thus its easy for them to get cut when you look at your animation budget. Added draw calls can keep stuff like that from getting added to games, in the case of dismemberment and spawning limbs, as well.

Wonderful. Thanks for the insight.

So, for example:

if I sneak up an enemy sitting in a chair, and stab them in the neck, an animation for them tumbing out of the chair and start crawling away on the floor grabbing their neck would initiate. So far so good. Say that before they die or sound an alarm I stab them in the arm, thus ragdolling that arm and breaking the initial animation, making them shuffle away on their back...

That kind of animation blending with specific hit location would be really neat.

 

[Lathentar]

This is done with either force being applied to specific colliders after ragdolling or via an IK system. Its also possible the Euphoria system allows animation and ragodoll to work at the same time ( I have no clue since I don't have access to it) but given what I have seen of Euphoria in use this is not the case.

Basically when your ragdoll there is no animation, when you have animation you cannot ragdoll. It is possible to blend the two (like when characters get up from a ragdoll) but that wouldn't work for the above example. Since Ragdolls use physics/colliders and animations do not they would fight each other and really muck things up.

Euphoria is not rag doll. It's very different, take a look at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6F3lT1v79I

If I remember correctly they basically have a neural network trained for self preservation and balance that drives a biped's animations. I believe in practice you have keyframed animations then whenever a force is applied that would normally trigger ragdoll you turn on euphoria to handle returning the character to a state where keyframed animations can take it over.

 

[The Lamonster]

I remember being impressed with Resident Evil 4's hit detection.

 

[Dictator93]

BTW, the term the OP is looking for its hit reaction... not hit detection.

 

[Wavebossa]

Basically, no more precanned animations.

Everything organic and physics based.

There will always be prescanned animations. You can add more and more and more for more precise/specific location scenarios to create the illusion or an organic AI injury reaction system.

But there will always be prescanned animations

BTW, the term the OP is looking for its hit reaction... not hit detection.

yeah that too lol

 

[Croatoan]

I kind of wondered about this, but are they separate colliders for each area, or are areas of a raycast hit or some such being defined as body parts, so to speak? For the force to work in this manner, there would need to be many, many colliders all over the model surely? The impact point 'seems' quite specific.

Characters are made up of a skeleton of bones just like you are. So that character has an upper arm, forarm, hand, fingers, etc. You can attach colliders to any of those and those colliders can be labeled to indecate what part of the body they are. Those colliders can then have rigidbodies added to them and character joints that when activated make them ragdoll.

Here is a unity character set up to ragdoll (the same colliders you see here can be used to detect hits as well as serve as bone colliders)

Essentially, when a character is being animated the bones are controlled by animations that ignore gravity or physics. When a character is ragdolling the bones are controlled by gravity and physics.

Since animators don't take physics into account when they animate (which they shouldn't because that would needlessly complicate things) the two obviously cannot work together. You can see this for yourself by watching a character get up from ragdolling in a lot of games. It looks really unnatural and sloppy. Some devs fight this by forcing them to go to a default position and then running a get up animation. But this also looks kind of awkward.

In order to truly get great hit reactions and just general physics improvements we are going to have to figure out a way to merge animation and physics together. You can see the early work on this with games like Star Forge that have physics driven animation.

 

[StalkerUKCG]

Killzone 2 did deaths really well as others have mentioned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPL6kfm8Ai4

 

[Lathentar]

There will always be prescanned animations. You can add more and more and more for more precise/specific location scenarios to create the illusion or an organic AI injury reaction system.

But there will always be prescanned animations

Not true, Euphoria isn't. The problem is that it's REALLY hard to do this. You basically need a middleware solution like Euphoria. Very few studios have the resources to dedicate to this problem.

 

[Croatoan]

Wonderful. Thanks for the insight.

So, for example:

if I sneak up an enemy sitting in a chair, and stab them in the neck, an animation for them tumbing out of the chair and start crawling away on the floor grabbing their neck would initiate. So far so good. Say that before they die or sound an alarm I stab them in the arm, thus ragdolling that arm and breaking the initial animation, making them shuffle away on their back...

That kind of animation blending with specific hit location would be really neat.

Yes that is possible right now but has a problem. Colliders have to be set to not collide when in an animation state and then set to collide when ragdolling. Where you to ragdoll a single limb it would not collide with other body parts since they will still be animating normally.

Its easier to just collect the hit and the hit limb and then just change to a different animation instead of using ragdoll.

One example, of which I am not sure how they accomplished, is when you break arms in the dead island games.

 

[Wavebossa]

Not true, Euphoria isn't. The problem is that it's REALLY hard to do this. You basically need a middleware solution like Euphoria. Very few studios have the resources to dedicate to this problem.

Sorry I wasn't clear. I was referring more to what happened next after the hit happened (moreso what the OP was alluding to). I'm not sure if Euphoria covers this was well, but it seems like the OP is talking more about how does the AI react after he loses his arm and gets back up, or is stabbed in the stomach and then procedes to hold his weapon and shoot at you, or how he walks after his he has a broken tibia etc etc.

Those are animations.

 

[Croatoan]

Not true, Euphoria isn't. The problem is that it's REALLY hard to do this. You basically need a middleware solution like Euphoria. Very few studios have the resources to dedicate to this problem.

How do the characters animate if they don't use animations?

 

[BiGBoSSMk23]

Yes that is possible right now but has a problem. Colliders have to be set to not collide when in an animation state and then set to collide when ragdolling. Where you to ragdoll a single limb it would not collide with other body parts since they will still be animating normally.

Its easier to just collect the hit and the hit limb and then just change to a different animation instead of using ragdoll.

One example, of which I am not sure how they accomplished, is when you break arms in the dead island games.

Oh, I see... So it would clip through the model if it was using ragdolls for the hit limbs. That is a problem...

Euphoria seems to have a handle on that...

And yeah, hit reaction is more accurate.

Not true, Euphoria isn't. The problem is that it's REALLY hard to do this. You basically need a middleware solution like Euphoria. Very few studios have the resources to dedicate to this problem.

Naughty Dog stated when they made the first Ubcharted they could have up to 3000 unique animations based on a handful of keyframed ones thanks to their animation blending tech... Back in 2007...

Amazing stuff.

I hope this becomes an area of focus soon.

 

[LCGeek]

Between how the online world works and what happens to data as you increase accuracy more fps would suffer trying to appease than keepign things as they are.

Id Software totally gutted Doom3 engine in this area after seeing how per pixel accuracy wrecked the online model we all know and love.

 

[Lathentar]

How do the characters animate if they don't use animations?

Once again, not 100% sure on this, but I think they have trained neural networks to drive a biped based on the desired behavior.

 

[Gravidee]

MGO had the worst hit detection ever when it came to realism. You could instantly kill someone with a knife just by stabbing them in the hand or boot.

 

[BiGBoSSMk23]

Once again, not 100% sure on this, but I think they have trained neural networks to drive a biped based on the desired behavior.

You'd still need at least some form of basic animation routine coded in there somewhere.

Anything that moves without gravity has to be animated, right?

 

[Mr Swine]

Perfect Dark (and Goldeneye 007) has some animations / hit detection like this.

Shooting enemies in the butt (GE 007) was fun and very hard to do xD

 

[Wavebossa]

You'd still need at least some form of basic animation routine coded in there somewhere.

Anything that moves without gravity has to be animated, right?

Exactly. You will always have animations.