Ray Fisher was also in the final pool for Finn, but, yeah, the rest of the final shortlist for the role were three white guys (one of which was Jesse Plemmons)
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Red Letter Media - The Star Wars Awakens Review
- Thread starter Sanjuro
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Again, it focuses on those two because that would have been the most obvious pairing since they'd just have to take some extra steps to the ones they already took.
Fact is that movie comes off as rather sexless with no one hooking up at all and I think that's a fair complaint.
Also imagine Rey being male and yet every interaction with Finn remains exactly the same, you don't think people would wonder why they didn't hook up or at least addressed it?
Spieler Eins
Member
The best joke was exactly about that (IS IT BECAUSE HE'S BLACK!?) and then basically an entire argument. I guess you were just hearing what you wanted to hear from these ,,must-be-MRAs!!!1".
Oh please. The joke is that how could this movie be progressive if it's afraid of showing interracial love. It's being absurd on purpose.
Nah man you know you gotta show they have the case of the "not gays" if it's a male lead.
Foxtastical
Member
Welcome to being an adult. Many of us do the same.
But The Force Awakens isn't about the everyday lives of office workers.
Not bad and I got enough laughs from it. It probably should've been split up into two parts though. Only about half of the video is actually about the Force Awakens.
I haven't read any fan theories so some of that stuff was genuinely interesting to me. It would be awesome to see a double turn between Rey and Ren. Taking a super likable character and making her detestable while redeeming a seemingly irredeemable character (in a lengthy arch -- NOT one that's done suddenly at the very end of a film) is something I really want to see now. It would also make sense considering how much they humanized Ren compared to a character like Vader and how he's ultimately portrayed as weaker than Rey. We would have a built-in, simple, and highly effective reason to root for him over her in a later showdown. We would be pulling for Ren to overcome the odds.
I haven't read any fan theories so some of that stuff was genuinely interesting to me. It would be awesome to see a double turn between Rey and Ren. Taking a super likable character and making her detestable while redeeming a seemingly irredeemable character (in a lengthy arch -- NOT one that's done suddenly at the very end of a film) is something I really want to see now. It would also make sense considering how much they humanized Ren compared to a character like Vader and how he's ultimately portrayed as weaker than Rey. We would have a built-in, simple, and highly effective reason to root for him over her in a later showdown. We would be pulling for Ren to overcome the odds.
Whom_Gods_Annoy
Banned
I finished it. Definently their worst Plinkett review but I still enjoyed it. The Vietnam stuff and the ending had me rolling.
I think he was dead on with the diversity. It felt so manufactured because they didnt do anything with it. Having Rey and Finn kiss (particularly if Rey was the one to initiate it) and having Phasma not be complete nothing would have been a great improvement.
I think he was dead on with the diversity. It felt so manufactured because they didnt do anything with it. Having Rey and Finn kiss (particularly if Rey was the one to initiate it) and having Phasma not be complete nothing would have been a great improvement.
Adam_Vania
Banned
thought the 'sex' tangent was kind of a waste of time. Star Wars movies never had sex as a theme in them and certainly not integral to the story. in fact wasn't it a huge criticism at the time when it came out in the 70s? many b-movie knock-offs profited off this (Battle Beyond the Stars, Starcrash, etc.).
SJurgenson
Banned
you are correct. I forgot about that part.
That was hands-down my favorite element of the movie. Especially now that parts of the internet have turned into an "everyone in every possible pairing must fuck" machine, it's kind of refreshing to have an outing where characters can have chemistry and that doesn't mean they're going to get it on.
There's a prevalent deep bond of affection between the two that is instantly made after the Millenium Falcon escape. I'd imagine Rey views this affection as a deep friendship, but not dissimilar to how love feels about unyielding devotion and total trust. She's incredibly upset when Finn won't come with her and knows she can't escape with him. After that comes the reunion in not Death Star, revenge and farewell which are all emotionally charged. They're not going to go fuck in the MF's bathroom but at the very least familial love is ever present between them.I mean, the reason why there's no Finn/Rey love angle in the movie is pretty obvious though. One, Rey shuts Finn down fairly early on. Two, the moment Han shows up the main core of the plot/conflict takes shape and then Rey is probably like
in terms of love interest stuff.
I just see them as partners, one who is romantically interested and the other is romantically oblivious.
Isn't the Dark Side fighting with the intent to kill and seeking destruction? That's how I saw it with how the Emperor taunted Luke and she was pretty intent on getting her revenge for piercing her not daddy and her not brother
ScherzoPrime
Member
On the flipside, I don't think it's bad the internet has a bunch of fanpairings either. Let their freak flag fly high!
Ordinaryundone
Member
I mean, the reason why there's no Finn/Rey love angle in the movie is pretty obvious though. One, Rey shuts Finn down fairly early on. Two, the moment Han shows up the main core of the plot/conflict takes shape and then Rey is probably like
in terms of love interest stuff.
I mean, I get WHY there isn't one from a character and plot perspective. That all makes perfect sense, and as the story is written now there isn't really any space for a love story to blossom. However, as a Star Wars fan I consider love stories and romance to be a pretty core part of the experience. Even shitty ones like Anakin and Padme, it may not be GOOD but its there and part of the formula. The complete lack of it, from any perspective or gender, is one of those things that contribute to making the film feel overly sterile. The movie takes so many cues from the previous movies, both as a sequel and as a "soft reboot", that it's weird that one of the big plot points of the previous two trilogies got left out. Even Han and Leia's romance, which was an actual thing with kissing and tension and (presumed) sex gets boiled down to a hug and some meaningful looks. The only thing we get is a little bit of unrequited flirting from Finn that does more to establish him as comic relief than as any sort of a sexual character. It doesn't even need to be Rey/Finn, either, though that would be the most obvious. Just SOMETHING that doesn't feel like its going to end in a pat on the back.
That said, there are still two more movies to go (and a whole hell of a lot of spin-offs) and I am pretty damn certain it's going to happen eventually, one way or another. I just wish, from a personal place, that they'd started building it up a little sooner.
Re-watch the review and FF to the part where Rey is kissing Finn's forehead and their comment about her not kissing him on the lips.
I think that's also fair. I'm also not a fan of "everyone must fuck everyone" mentality but a little romance mixed in is an ingredient I connect with Star Wars. It wouldn't even have to be the two protagonists. Something like Kylo Ren having a lover might have been interesting since I don't think the movies ever looked into that aspect of the dark side before.
Adam_Vania
Banned
RLM got huge from a video series meticulously picking apart the prequel trilogy. the re-appraisal the prequels got in the lead-up to TFA's release is certainly worth commenting about.
i'm glad they went so in-depth into the ring theory bc the entire idea of the prequel trilogy being too smart for people is so absurd and provides a great entry point to talk about the many ways people tried to defend those movies.
That would've been a sexual assault. RLM thinks sexual assault is on those bastards!!
And it was a minor criticism of the film and more of a criticism of the movie-by-committee culture in Hollywood.
Adventure movies usually have action, discovering new places, loves, friends, and conquering over evil forces. That's what makes up action serials like Star Wars. Swinging across valleys, grabbing each other for safety etc.
It's as if Disney lifted everything, but the love and sex aspect of those stories. I think the criticism is that this is somehow a market research thing. Whether it's Disney being afraid of interracial/homosexual couplings or something else. Another aspect could be the age of the audience Disney is targeting and the interactions of these things with their branded merchandise.
They may also want to have a situation where all the characters are "pure." In the same way that pop group managers would sell their members as unattached, "cute" mascots for merchandising to children.
When I watched the film I thought they were just leaving things open for the next film. They hinted at potential flames, but action interceded and nothing was resolved. It's a bit like all narrative aspects of the first film. Things could go in many different ways. I don't feel I have an idea of where they will go with it, unless they repeat Empire Strikes Back or pull more from other films in the trilogies.
I think I agree with RLM that it's okay to use all these homages in this first one, but they should try something new in Episode 8. It would suck if they continued to trod the same grounds with something a little new each time like the Jurassic World approach to rebooting.
Ordinaryundone
Member
That's actually a good point, they spend a lot of time in the Prequel trilogy warning of the dangers that a romantic connection can present to a Jedi, especially a young and impressionable one. What if Kylo Ren had some badass, Asajj Ventress style mega-Sith girlfriend who was all up on him for being Darth Vader's heir and he was insecure because he loved her but wasn't sure he had it in him to actually be that evil. He can be vulnerable AND an asshole, plus it makes him seem like less of a woobie teenager because at least we know he's got something on his mind other than droids and temper tantrums.
Eh, for me love story/romance stuff wasn't really a huge part of Star Wars until the prequels tried so hard to make Anakin/Padme happen. Han and Luke both having crushes on Leia is fairly down played in the original movie. Han/Leia in Empire is honestly kind of the B-plot of that movie. And Han/Leia in Jedi is only really a big deal during the first act of the movie.
I agree in theory, it just seems like recently those fan pairings have attained primacy in an increasing number of deluded fans, to the point where if Finn and Poe *don't* screw, it's somehow homophobic or offensive. As has been seen in some of the recent shipping threads, people are taking it way too far, and to me it seems like a far better idea to ignore those kinds of fans than cater to their whims.
It wasn't only that though. He brought up a very good troubling point that they pretty much were so sensitive to how they handled race relations they really didn't develop any frieindships or sexual relationships as organically as they do in traditional blockbusters. Star Wars TFA was lacking a human element because of their tiptoeing.
Ordinaryundone
Member
Maybe it's not the primary part, but its an important one. I mean, Leia and Han's "I Love you! I know." exchange is one of the big emotional climaxes in the movie, and probably the best one in the entire trilogy. Empire Strikes Back has a LOT of sexual tension between Han and Leia and it makes it all the more tragic when they get separated at the end and more cathartic when they are later reunited in Return of the Jedi. It's not the primary motivations for the audience or the characters but it adds so much extra to what's going on and adds some depth to the characters.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Too much anime may have rotted my brain, but ESB basically has a "tsundere" relationship with Leia switching between hot and cool as appropriate. Also when Lando is introduced, he's seen as an intrusion by Han. It just added an extra dimension to those relationships.
I must say this was slightly disappointing. Too much of the time was spent on the prequels. Though taking consideration the level of critique they gave Force Awakens, maybe they didn't have much to say about it. Which was another disappointment. Also the jokes were mostly really weak. Still, I was glad to watch it all.
Uzumaki Goku
Junior Member
He spent too much time talking about the prequels I feel. His complaints about the Force Awakens felt like nitpicking.
That's sort of what the review was inevitably going to be I feel like. The question mark everyone had was the fact that Mike had already gone on record to say he actually liked the film, and as recently as the Ghostbusters review (which was a good few months after the first TFA teaser) he still cited the movie as the ur-example of how to do a franchise soft reboot. Considering everyone has already debated the differences there's little I think Plinkett could add to the discussion other than pointing out the elements of the movie that weren't deviations and how that reflects on the movie itself. Some of the parts I do agree with him are the matter of the open-ended questions - namely how the movie raises a few interesting plot points or potential for character dynamics before it brushes them aside to continue paying homage to itself. Plinkett's idea for the movie's potential narrative is also a lot more interesting I think, especially with how he pitches the potential for another Luke / Han interaction.
Ultimately with TFA I guess things are sort of mitigated mainly because it's the first movie in a long-dormant franchise that had left people jaded. It's return is in a far different movie landscape, and any grievances people may have of unanswered questions can be forgiven by a lot of people because the important thing was getting people on board with the franchise again, as well as the knowledge that they'd already set two more movies after that in the pipeline. That said I have a feeling that once Episode VIII comes out, people might look back on TFA with a little more scrutiny due to how safe it is. I think even ANH was a little more exciting than TFA as an individual movie despite the fact that the former takes place on a much more grounded space. Who knows if love and romance had anything to do with that honestly, but it's just so much more fun in terms of dynamics.
Overall I think the main point here is Star Wars shouldn't be chained down by it's past. Even if TFA is a servicable and by all accounts, fairly good movie, it holds the telltale signs of having been able to be a much better, more exciting movie than it ended up being, and that's why I don't think it's going to age particularly well. Even if this movie was a meticulously calculated attempt just to sell people on the franchise, it could have settled for a lot more when the Star Wars franchise is still somewhat of a money-proof franchise.
Doctor Bat
Member
Tapped out the moment Plinkett said "annoying diversity"
Holy shit the comments...
Pretty telling that he spent half the vid about the "redeemers of the prequels".
RLM's comment on diversity is shite frankly.
"Kids wouldn't' give a shit anyway"
Isn't that the argument why it's ok if the Prequels are worse than junk food blended with plastic?
It certainly doesn't make the movie worse.
Pretty telling that he spent half the vid about the "redeemers of the prequels".
RLM's comment on diversity is shite frankly.
"Kids wouldn't' give a shit anyway"
Isn't that the argument why it's ok if the Prequels are worse than junk food blended with plastic?
It certainly doesn't make the movie worse.
Not really, the Titanic review was one of the best.
It worked for Star Trek 09 and Titanic.
But I guess a lot has changed since then and they are leaning more into the negativity schtick.
Ahh, didn't know that. Thank you for the correction.
uncelestial
Member
Yes there was.
prag16
Banned
So what's the deal. Not familiar with this "Plinkett" entity. First off, the voice is awful. INCREDIBLY difficult to get through for that reason alone.
But mainly, is this meant to be entirely satirical, or what? I've seen people cite Plinkett reviews before, speaking as if they're serious reviews. But so much of this is so over the top. Such massive overreaches, nitpickiness, and sometimes almost completely nonsensical.
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
Have Rich and that bald guy whose name I always forget write the analysis. They already eviscerated BvS in PreRec, they just need someone to write comedy around it: https://youtu.be/eWEJb_3IFBw
I liked the "review" overall, mainly for the first half of content which should have just been its own separate video.
The struggle is real when they finally get to TFA, and for what they did have to say I feel like they were really grasping after getting the obvious out of the way. The movie is good, Plinkett doesn't work very well when that happens. Still got a few laughs out of me and I can appreciate the discussion, but it belongs in one of their other formats.
The struggle is real when they finally get to TFA, and for what they did have to say I feel like they were really grasping after getting the obvious out of the way. The movie is good, Plinkett doesn't work very well when that happens. Still got a few laughs out of me and I can appreciate the discussion, but it belongs in one of their other formats.
"Plinkett" is a fictional character who appears in RedLetterMedia's videos (in the titular reviews he's portrayed by Mike Stoklasa but in RLM's general talk/review show Half In The Bag he's portrayed by Rich Evans). The character is portrayed as an aging, overweight, partially senile serial killer with the conceit behind the joke being only someone psychotic would analyze movies to the extent that he does. Despite the dark humor in the reviews not being for everyone there's no denying that the reviews for the Star Wars prequel trilogy are kind of legendary in the field due to how much they deconstruct the movies all the way down to screenwriting 101. They're highly informative videos and if you can get behind the humor they're also incredibly funny.
A lot of people were excited to see what they had to come with when it came to a TFA review but unlike the prequels there's really not much to pick apart when it's a fairly competent movie. Hell it's even admitted that the issues raised could be boiled down to nitpicks, hence why the video itself instead talks about the Star Wars franchise as a whole in the last decade.
I actually only just now realized that the title of the video wasn't "The Force Awakens Review" but "The Star Wars Awakens Review" so I guess you get what's on the tin.
Jesse Plemons was originally considered for the role of Finn before J.J. went with Boyega. So congrats on being incorrect.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
I actually really enjoyed the video which I gues puts me in a minority? It's not as "funny" as the others but still fun.
freethoughtbubble
Member
I don't think you're in the minority. Given the negative reactions on gaf, I checked the like bar and it's overwhelmingly in the black... I think most people are like you (and me) and found it to be a good video, if not the best RLM's ever done.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
Sounds like it was good that I got out with that ghostbusters review. Doesn't look like it just playing to their crowd, anymore. Shame, really like those best of worst videos.
Neoriceisgood
Member
I want to say that on the bright side, at least they weren't drunk while making this one.
But somehow that just makes this video worse.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Can you elaborate?
Riposte
Member
I couldn't put it together until hearing it, but yeah, the lack of passion is fairly noteworthy, most apparent in the weird forehead kiss scene. At first, I kind of liked that romance wasn't a huge part of a big hollywood movie, but now I can't help to think that something was missing in its place. The "hugs" musical montage was genuinely pretty funny. Passion is mostly replaced by Marvel-humor, and the sense of wonder a little drowned out by nostalgic references. I'm actually a little concerned when I rewatch the movie outside a theater I'll go from loving Flinn to hating him because every emotion he goes through is made into a "time for the audience to laugh" comedy bit; that's the impression I was getting from the clips he was using, anyway. I think Kylo Ren was a bit of an exception, so I get the impression they were generally more positive on him. Then again, I seem to never get my fill of Marvel-humor even if it's just the same thing for every IP. Aside from a few jokes that hit, the funniest part of the review were the interview clips of Brienne of Tarth trying to say there was anything of substance to Captain Phasma.
On the diversity point I think the contrast they were trying to set up is Lucas who is/was naive about diversity makes a pulpy sci-fi movie straight from his heart with hormonal characters vs. "Disney movie making machine" who checks diversity off of a list, which is a good thing or at least not a big deal, but in the process of checklist mindset (which includes quirky action-comedy humor, nostalgia baiting) forgets to make their diverse characters actually human - a simulacrum along the lines of an university ad. Aside from some clumsy wording, I don't think anything in the video says diversity is a problem, just the whole cynical mindset they view the film's creation took place in, for example using it as a talking point in marketing. I wonder if its an indirect defense for the less diverse OT. Oddly, the first thing that came to mind is what I've noticed about the various nerdy "shipping" conversations about Cartoon Network shows, Naruto, and whatnot: the awareness of the complicated realities of diverse sexuality filtered through people who haven't actually spent much time having sex, being in relationships, or even just leaving their rooms. How RLM presents the movie puts the idea in my head that someone, maybe a "shipper", was basically writing their way around sexuality, almost to avoid it, yet leaving just enough incidental scraps for people to engage in overdeveloped shipping fantasies.
Anyway, I felt like I just watched three videos at once and only enjoyed one of them. The whole first part was a waste of time as far as I'm concerned. It failed to make to make an interesting show of the fairly needless endeavor of taking down prequels apologia, despite taking its sweet time. The actual review even knew it would be spend a lot of time on well-treated ground, but took awhile to hit some interesting points (with some of those points being awkwardly expressed). Even though it's generally the most pointless part of any review, I liked hearing Plinkett's version of Episode VII. Since "movie making machines" and cinematic universes don't actually bother me much, I'm not really that cynical about the movie, but I can see their point.
On the diversity point I think the contrast they were trying to set up is Lucas who is/was naive about diversity makes a pulpy sci-fi movie straight from his heart with hormonal characters vs. "Disney movie making machine" who checks diversity off of a list, which is a good thing or at least not a big deal, but in the process of checklist mindset (which includes quirky action-comedy humor, nostalgia baiting) forgets to make their diverse characters actually human - a simulacrum along the lines of an university ad. Aside from some clumsy wording, I don't think anything in the video says diversity is a problem, just the whole cynical mindset they view the film's creation took place in, for example using it as a talking point in marketing. I wonder if its an indirect defense for the less diverse OT. Oddly, the first thing that came to mind is what I've noticed about the various nerdy "shipping" conversations about Cartoon Network shows, Naruto, and whatnot: the awareness of the complicated realities of diverse sexuality filtered through people who haven't actually spent much time having sex, being in relationships, or even just leaving their rooms. How RLM presents the movie puts the idea in my head that someone, maybe a "shipper", was basically writing their way around sexuality, almost to avoid it, yet leaving just enough incidental scraps for people to engage in overdeveloped shipping fantasies.
Anyway, I felt like I just watched three videos at once and only enjoyed one of them. The whole first part was a waste of time as far as I'm concerned. It failed to make to make an interesting show of the fairly needless endeavor of taking down prequels apologia, despite taking its sweet time. The actual review even knew it would be spend a lot of time on well-treated ground, but took awhile to hit some interesting points (with some of those points being awkwardly expressed). Even though it's generally the most pointless part of any review, I liked hearing Plinkett's version of Episode VII. Since "movie making machines" and cinematic universes don't actually bother me much, I'm not really that cynical about the movie, but I can see their point.
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