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[Froli]

This video says it all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kuz3WETd4ug

I don't know about you guys, but this is kinda hard to watch.
It's cringy

 

[nynt9]

the example you quote is totally spot on. Certain things don't end up in the end product because they didn't have the time / money / manpower to do it or due to some other technical limitation.

But we all actually understand that already. That's the thing. We get that things change. Hell, several critical posts on this page alone have started with "we get that things change during development". The problem here is that these changes were not communicated. When you advertise a feature but then remove it, you have the chance to communicate that or not. Communicating would cause some disappointment, but at least consumers would be informed and make purchases based on that. Not communicating it misleads the consumer and can lead to them paying under false premises. The onus on the customer is to be informed, but they cannot be informed about something that was never made public. At that point the onus is on the developer to be truthful and communicate.

There are things to criticise for sure. But this feels more like finding anything that sticks than having an honest discussions about it. Just my take though, and understand people feel differently. I just feel we start going down a dangerous path where if you want developer interaction, they going to record and apologise to any thing they said when it changes in fear of a backlash. That is what i meant by developer access.

I'm sorry that you feel a developer being held accountable to the wild promises they make as "dangerous", but I think that position is patently absurd. Of course people should be held accountable. And proper developer access means transparency, aka making it clear what is and isn't in the game. What Hello Games did is the opposite of transparency.

 

[Turin Turambar]

There are many people, myself included, who feel they have received the game that was advertised.
...

Well, the core promise of procedural decent looking planets that can be visited seamlessly in a big galaxy is there, I will give you that.

But I wonder how much you have looked at the advertising (trailers) as just comparing the real game with the first trailer (which is their presentation card, most people know the game because that trailer) the difference in quality is staggering. Just the design of the creatures, their animations, their behaviors, it's all qualitatively way inferior in the real game.
Making a game that uses procedural models and animations for the creatures and then using what it seems handcrafted models and animations for the marketing videos is false marketing. Simple as that.

 

[KingSnake]

It's not your fault, but people shouldn't be that suprised that things like this happen.

If you understand software development, then you can understand certain factors that contribute to compromises having to be made.

And if you don't understand, or simply just don't want to listen to those factors, since you're just the customer and shouldn't have to deal with that, then you should at least understand the risk with preordering and day 1 purchases.

The devs are of course not without blame, but customers should also know better.

What's with the patronising tone? You don't need to understand the manufacturing process of a product to complain if the product sold doesn't do what was advertised to do.

The problem is not (only) about the features missing in the game. The big problem is that those features were advertised to be in the game up until the last minute and there was no communication what so ever from the developer about cutting them out.

The "foundation of the game" is being a space-explorer, which is the game I bought and the game I am playing. Yes, shit on the missing features galore as it deserves, but the base game, called No Man's Sky, with the basic gameplay loop and sense of exploration that I expected from it, is there.

I find your claim about the missing foundation to be as ridiculous as any" nuh-uh" defense.

Foundation: this is not a space-explorer.

There is no universe in the game. Not in the way the universe is perceived by common knowledge or how it was marketed (remember that nice zoom out transition that got standing ovations at E3?). There is only a galaxy at one time which is actually a bunch of systems with loading screens between them. The star systems are not actually star systems, but a bunch of planets and moons thrown together in one place with no star (just a skybox and light source), no orbiting and no actual rotation.

Even the exploration part was oversold, because without grinding for resources there isn't too much of a exploration.

Can we stop dismissing discussion as defending the Advertising for this game. some people are just trying to have an actual genuine discussion about game development / advertising and the industry in general, trying to explain how things end up like this (even including qualifiers to explain they aren't justifying the actions

This thread is not about the advertising and game development in gaming industry in general. What you try to do is apply some very classic whataboutism.

 

[themadcowtipper]

Because maybe they felt, as the development was coming to a close (or earlier) that it wasn't an important aspect to the game and that they can simulate the important aspects of the physics without resorting to actually implementing it? Like day night cycles/ temperatureWhich in turns saves on performance and reduce bugs

I don't think it worked. This game has crashes and bugs galore.

 

[Bits N Pieces]

He received death threats and decided to delete his own account.

Fucking hell.

I take it none of the NMS Uber Fans bothered to watch the latest Inquisition from Jim Sterling then?

Absolutely pathetic

 

[Joelstinton14]

Well, the core promise of procedural decent looking planets that can be visited seamlessly in a big galaxy is there, I will give you that.

But I wonder how much you have looked at the advertising (trailers) as just comparing the real game with the first trailer (which is their presentation card, most people know the game because that trailer) the difference in quality is staggering. Just the design of the creatures, their animations, their behaviors, it's all qualitatively way inferior in the real game.
Making a game that uses procedural models and animations for the creatures and then using what it seems handcrafted models and animations for the marketing videos is false marketing. Simple as that.

For sure, i did reference this trailer in the quoted post, or one after it, not sure!) You can definitely accuse the trailer of being scripted/over polishing it's vision for sure. But this is no different to all trailers released to some degree. Vertical slices are the bread and butter of E3 (For better or for worse).

But i still think that the game we are playing now, is recognisable in that trailer, and more so in the IGN hands on from last year, it's all in there.

Anyway, i got to shoot off, nice discussing this with you all, have a good day.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

The "foundation of the game" is being a space-explorer, which is the game I bought and the game I am playing. Yes, shit on the missing features galore as it deserves, but the base game, called No Man's Sky, with the basic gameplay loop and sense of exploration that I expected from it, is there.

I find your claim about the missing foundation to be as ridiculous as any" nuh-uh" defense.

But it's not an explorer game it's a survival game and because of that shift the game had to be homogenized to a ridiculous degree. There are plants and basic resources on every planet to guarantee you're not gonna be stranded on a planet after not properly rationing. The inventory management mini game also goes entirely counter that idea.

If that was the game they wanted to make all they had to do was to look at Minecraft, a game that has been reiterated upon enough to learn from.

 

[Jac_Solar]

There really were few reasons to preorder this, unless it's the "physical copies were cheaper on Amazon/Something similiar" argument. But even with that, no one should preorder if they're not prepared to take a risk on what the final product ends up being.

It would be good if the developers could explain why something they explicitly said recently would be included, but people really need to stop taking everything that's being shown or talked about as promises, and them not being included as lies.

It's not promises, it's what developers aim for.
It's not lies when they're not included, it's compromises.

Software development will always come with risks, and releases will always be compromises.

And no one needs to be there day 1 for the game. No one.

In that case, why didn't they specify that it was something they aimed for, or might have to compromise on later? Why would they straight up state that these features people are discussing are in the game as a matter of fact?

They don't *have* to say anything about their game. They don't *have* to specify which features are in the game or not. But if they do, they should clarify which features made it into the game when they are close to gold/have gone gold. Games, in most cases, are finished several weeks before consumers get them, so they would have had plenty of time to once again specify which features made it into the game, and/or which features didn't.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Because maybe they felt, as the development was coming to a close (or earlier) that it wasn't an important aspect to the game and that they can simulate the important aspects of the physics without resorting to actually implementing it? Like day night cycles/ temperature. Which in turns saves on performance and reduce bugs.

Like after you seen one solar system doing its thing, how many times are you likely to stay and watch it on every system you go to? Once, twice? After that you are just playing the game as we are now.

There isn't a massive list of features of things that are missing - there is plenty of things that can come down to interpretation and perception, and there is even confusion over the solar system construction with the patch notes (which suggest that is some degree of physics in there)

The microscope that sean and the game as been placed under as been insane, and personally unwarranted. When you compile any list it always looks damning, but when you sive through them, it really comes across as nitpicking (no butterflies! oh they are in the game) or a system doesn't work as you initially thought, the criticisms aimed at it start to become muted.

There are things to criticise for sure. But this feels more like finding anything that sticks than having an honest discussions about it. Just my take though, and understand people feel differently. I just feel we start going down a dangerous path where if you want developer interaction, they going to record and apologise to any thing they said when it changes in fear of a backlash. That is what i meant by developer access.

But you don't have to put it under a microscope to see what happened. Even if things got changed and removed over the past half year or so, you need to communicate those things and stay in touch with your community when they ask you about it. Instead Murray is posting vague stuff on Twitter. Just look at the multiplayer thing, where he made conflicting statements still the day before release. And after he is talking about players meeting each other, while that isn't what happened. Even after release he is unclear about the features in his own game.

The problem to me is not that features got removed. That happens all the time. But the conflicting and vague communication about it all leaves some buyers with a feeling of being deceived or lied to. And that is very understandable.

If there would be better communication, the nitpicking wouldn't have gotten as bad as it is now. Most of this was preventable by just some clear statements from the developer.

 

[SomTervo]

Diablo 3 has the biggest and arguably best Dev in the world behind it. There's a world of difference in the two situations. I expect patches to fix the crashes and maybe a few new features, but I don't expect a radical turnaround.

At least Hello Games will now have an absurd amount of money behind them to (hopefully) add a lot of improvements.

 

[bbalde]

Considering I was somewhat interested by the reveal and subsequent coverage, I sure as hell am glad that I did not buy this game.

Living in a place I can't even get internet, the day one patch sealed the deal for me...

 

[Baalzebup]

But it's not an explorer game it's a survival game and because of that shift the game had to be homogenized to a ridiculous degree. There are plants and basic resources on every planet to guarantee you're not gonna be stranded on a planet after not properly rationing. The inventory management mini game also goes entirely counter that idea.

If that was the game they wanted to make all they had to do was to look at Minecraft, a game that has been reiterated upon enough to learn from.

What you wrote actually just says that the survival side of things has been made easy-mode due it being far too simple to accomplish said survival with essentially no forethought or preparation required, but that does nothing to affect whether or not it is an exploration game. Those are not mutually exclusive.

Foundation: this is not a space-explorer.

There is no universe in the game. Not in the way the universe is perceived by common knowledge or how it was marketed (remember that nice zoom out transition that got standing ovations at E3?). There is only a galaxy at one time which is actually a bunch of systems with loading screens between them. The star systems are not actually star systems, but a bunch of planets and moons thrown together in one place with no star (just a skybox and light source), no orbiting and no actual rotation.

Even the exploration part was oversold, because without grinding for resources there isn't too much of a exploration.

See, to me, it very much is an exploration game. I can jump on my ship, fly to a planet that seems to have a fancy color, land, freely picking my landing spot, and just hop off. I can jump into a radioactive sea, scare off a few thingies that look like giant fanged tadpoles and swim into an underwater cave just to see how far it goes. Then after I've fucked around a bit, I jump back onto my ship, fly back to the orbit, take my bearings, seek out another planet and land in lush green fields with bright red trees and some space-deer leaping about. Then I climb the nearby hill to see what is on the other side.

So yes, space, and exploration. Space exploring, if you will. The game is simple as fuck, but the sense of exploration is very much there.

But you don't have to put it under a microscope to see what happened. Even if things got changed and removed over the past half year or so, you need to communicate those things and stay in touch with your community when they ask you about it. Instead Murray is posting vague stuff on Twitter. Just look at the multiplayer thing, where he made conflicting statements still the day before release. And after he is talking about players meeting each other, while that isn't what happened. Even after release he is unclear about the features in his own game.

The problem to me is not that features got removed. That happens all the time. But the conflicting and vague communication about it all leaves some buyers with a feeling of being deceived or lied to. And that is very understandable.

If there would be better communication, the nitpicking wouldn't have gotten as bad as it is now. Most of this was preventable by just some clear statements from the developer.

They definitely did drop the communication ball so damn hard it boggles the mind, and the continued radio silence isn't doing them any favors.

 

[Steve.1981]

I've been following this debate on and off, over 2 or 3 different threads now, without really taking part. I find the 'internet drama' aspect of it all very off-putting. I've been thinking about it quite a bit though.

I love this game. I was hyped for it since I first heard of it. I was excited to explore an alien universe where everything looks like the cover of an old sci-fi book. I can do that now, and I love it.

There's a lot of white noise surrounding this issue, but when you take a step back and just think about the actual problem, this...

...The problem here is that these changes were not communicated. When you advertise a feature but then remove it, you have the chance to communicate that or not. Communicating would cause some disappointment, but at least consumers would be informed and make purchases based on that. Not communicating it misleads the consumer and can lead to them paying under false premises. The onus on the customer is to be informed, but they cannot be informed about something that was never made public. At that point the onus is on the developer to be truthful and communicate...

...is it.

I still respect Sean Murray and everyone at Hello Games for what they achieved with No Man's Sky. Again, I love the game. But they really should have issued a simple statement to clarify things that they had to change or remove before release. I understand how that must be a difficult situation to find yourself in, but it should have been done.

 

[TheCanisDirus]

So yes, space, and exploration. Space exploring, if you will. The game is simple as fuck, but the sense of exploration is very much there.

Until you've explored all the planets in a few systems. Then you've pretty much seen everything or at least all the variables and will just continue to see different iterations on all other planets you visit. Hell, after exploring one planet you'll likely see just about every type of building you'll likely see in the rest of the entire universe :/

 

[Jacksinthe]

This gets at what I've been trying to say:
http://ungaming.tumblr.com/post/149102772520/i-tweeted-a-link-to-this-article-on-the-bus-about

This needs to be the first post in all threads like these.

Piss poor. Piss fucking poor.

Media needs to take some heat for sure but the whole "oh well, you really can't take what devs say about their game seriously, herp to the derp" is fucking bullshit.

As a PS4 and PC dev, I know the drill. I know sometimes shit changes but absolving Hello Games for their deceptive PR campaign is bullshit.

I know too many devs in indie and they get their messaging across without a hiccup and are transparent about features. This shit isnt hard as a dev - you just simply don't make shit up and if something is in flux, you're not beholden to talk about it. Fucking simple.

 

[TheCanisDirus]

Piss poor. Piss fucking poor.

Media needs to take some heat for sure but the whole "oh well, you really can't take what devs say about their game seriously, herp to the derp" is fucking bullshit.

As a PS4 and PC dev, I know the drill. I know sometimes shit changes but absolving Hello Games for their deceptive PR campaign is bullshit.

I know too many devs in indie and they get their messaging across without a hiccup and are transparent about features. This shit isnt hard as a dev - you just simply don't make shit up and if something is in flux, you're not beholden to talk about it. Fucking simple.

Pretty much all of this. Some people will defend or make excuses for reasons that are beyond me.

 

[elyetis]

At least Hello Games will now have an absurd amount of money behind them to (hopefully) add a lot of improvements.

Apparently not enough to stay confident that they will be able to do keep doing so for free.

 

[Baalzebup]

Until you've explored all the planets in a few systems. Then you've pretty much seen everything or at least all the variables and will just continue to see different iterations on all other planets you visit. Hell, after exploring one planet you'll likely see just about every type of building you'll likely see in the rest of the entire universe :/

I'm sorry, but I'm with Griss on this one. There are more things to see in this game than the first 10 planets would have you assume. Especially since those are pretty much invariably of the yellow start system variety. Visit different color star systems, you see new kind of shit to get used to. The buildings do get old very damn fast, I'll give you that, but even just seeing all the monolith encounters of each race, and getting their histories from the plaques takes a good amount of fucking around.

The been there, seen it all threshold is further out than at 10 planets visited.

 

[tornjaw]

There are many people, myself included, who feel they have received the game that was advertised. I didn't follow everything about this game, but enough to justify a purchase.

They funny thing is, two weeks ago people were asking what you did in this game, yet now we suddenly have a list of things that apparently the game was meant to be. If you went back and looked at games that are released within the last few months/year, and looked at their trailers and development videos you could draw up a list of things that didn't make the games as well.

Game development is about compromise. It is governed by technical aspects as much as it by its artistic intentions.

We are in a position where people are trawling through every single interview hoping to catch the poor bloke out. That to me suggest this is more than simple criticism, and more in line with a typical boring gamer outrage. I didn't see many people citing the criticisms in the list until someone had written it out, and now it is suddenly Hello games this, hello games that.

The issue that started it all was multiplayer. It's not as if it was mentioned once offhandedly and never brought up again. Time and time again he publicly stated that there was going to be the possibility of finding other players. Here's a quick video of it. So it isn't as if he simply forgot something he said once, a few years ago. It's something he knew people wanted, evidenced by the number of times he's been asked about it, and blatantly chose not to answer truthfully. To me that is the very definition of a liar.

I don't particularly like terms such as liar, molyenuex 2, etc because it is not criticism, it's abusive. If in 3 games time Murray still has the same accusations being thrown at his games, then yes, maybe we can have this discussion.

But at the moment you have to give him the benefit of the doubt. He is a relative new face in the industry that was shoved into the spotlight, with strong ideas that should be celebrated. But instead, like gamers do, especially with hyped games, they really gone in for the kill, and i think that is really sad.

Whoops, you don't like the term liar. Then what do you call it? I'm not so naive as to think that every little feature can or will make it into the final cut nor do I believe that what my interpretation of their statements will fit into everyone's idea of the same. One troubling part I see here is that you're willing to give him 3 (!!) chances at this? Three games in of promising gamers something, not delivering, and then going silent? You are honestly okay with that?

All i see is a Phil Fish mark 2, Jennifer Helper, Greg Zeschuk etc happening here. Customers are owed nothing.

It is fair to criticise the game, and there are many good posts in this page doing that, but i think there is a lot to celebrate in NMS.

There are a lot of things that Sean will learn from this, but i fall into the camp that some of the behaviour surrounding this is pretty low especially the blanket statements about Sean character, and yes i think this is blown way out of proportion.

Customers are owed nothing? That is one of the most insane things I have ever heard. Without the customer, the consumer, there is no market. The consumer is the most important part of this equation. If the seller doesn't live up to their end of the bargain (the transaction of goods or services that were promised) the consumer isn't going to purchase from them any longer. The seller can't sell and has to do something else.

 

[TheCanisDirus]

I'm sorry, but I'm with Griss on this one. There are more things to see in this game than the first 10 planets would have you assume. Especially since those are pretty much invariably of the yellow start system variety. Visit different color star systems, you see new kind of shit to get used to. The buildings do get old very damn fast, I'll give you that, but even just seeing all the monolith encounters of each race, and getting their histories from the plaques takes a good amount of fucking around.

The been there, seen it all threshold is further out than at 10 planets visited.

This could just be my personal experience.

I've been to about 60 systems and through maybe 4 or 5 black holes and visited too many planets to remember. (not a ton compared to some i know but more than enough) I've personally seen things repeat far too often. I've come to know and recognize the different "planet types" and most of the flora and fauna variations. I can spot the base parts with ease and see how they're used and where/when. I've encountered each of the races and taken most of their histories and language and relations as far as they can. Most of this was accomplished within my first 4 or 5 jumps. My experience could be completely different than yours though. I could have hit the jackpot with planets and variable etc.

For me the "mile wide, inch deep" sentiment in 100% accurate. Absolutely so.

 

[SomTervo]

Apparently not enough to stay confident that they will be able to do keep doing so for free.

The way he stated it was 'if for any reason there are financial difficulties, it won't be free'.

It doesn't look like they will have any financial difficulties.

They should have addressed multiplayer.

Most everything else, youre basically asking for their internal changelog. As someone in this thread said before, do you expect them to go back and address every tiny thing that may or may not have changed from previous trailers?

As a dev I would think it's ludicrous is if someone expected me to let everyone know publicly that we ended up changing how sand works or something like that.

This is basically true, but I think there's maybe slightly more than just multiplayer. Not a huge amount, but a little more.

This could just be my personal experience.

I've been to about 60 systems and through maybe 4 or 5 black holes and visited too many planets to remember. (not a ton compared to some i know but more than enough) I've personally seen things repeat far too often. I've come to know and recognize the different "planet types" and most of the flora and fauna variations. I can spot the base parts with ease and see how they're used and where/when. I've encountered each of the races and taken most of their histories and language and relations as far as they can. Most of this was accomplished within my first 4 or 5 jumps. My experience could be completely different than yours though. I could have hit the jackpot with planets and variable etc.

For me the "mile wide, inch deep" sentiment in 100% accurate. Absolutely so.

Totally fair enough - from my experience I'd call the game "mile wide, five feet deep". There's some depth there, but yeah, far from enough.

The classic problem is that it could just be luck. Your 61st planet could be something totally new and different. Obviously this isn't a justification and your experience is your experience.

Just such an awkward fucker of a game.

 

[Pepboy]

It's not your fault, but people shouldn't be that suprised that things like this happen.

If you understand software development, then you can understand certain factors that contribute to compromises having to be made.

And if you don't understand, or simply just don't want to listen to those factors, since you're just the customer and shouldn't have to deal with that, then you should at least understand the risk with preordering and day 1 purchases.

The devs are of course not without blame, but customers should also know better.

It's not your fault but people shouldn't be surprised that lying about a product and choosing not to update people on important features of that product will lead to a lot of upset customers. Which may lead to legal action (yet to be seen).

 

[aeolist]

Mmm, true dat. I would consider that to be part of the missing dressing, but people do have a vast variety of priorities.

and that's fine. i'm happy for people who like what the game is and are satisfied with the product they bought, it's cool that they have a fun new game to play.

but those people dismissing the concerns and complaints of people who wanted the other half of what was promised just because they don't care about that part are being shitty. you can like a game and still be critical of it, or listen to criticism without getting personally defensive.

i understand that some people are being too vitriolic and that sucks. it's never ok to harass or abuse anyone, even and especially developers who have disappointed you. however you also can't just come into threads like this and make blanket statements against witch hunting or mobbing when the vast majority of what's happening here is people who bought the game trying to figure out what's in it.

these are reasonable complaints and it's no more excusable than any misleading AAA game's advertising. sean murray doesn't get a pass because he's the head of a small team or a nice guy. he doesn't get a pass because everyone else does it too. he made multiple affirmative statements about the kind of game this is as recently as a few months ago when he had to have known that certain features and ideas were not making the cut.

 

[Mad Season]

I am not talking about Reddit posts or whatever other nonsense you want to throw into the mix. We are talking about hard VIDEO facts here and the testimony out of Sean Murray's very own mouth! I am not basing my argument off of what others said, like you are. The plain and simple fact is that he is on multiple dozens of videos lying and promising things that he knew were never possible by his team to begin with. Period. He intentionally lied and overpromised features that he knew were never going to be implemented in the game or even possible (by his team) to implement into the game. Whether it was one thing he lied about or many dozens (which is what transpired in this case.) To deny the very evidence that damns him is not only ignorant, but very foolish.

The guy has been recorded dozens and dozens of times lying, even on national television in front of MILLIONS. There is no defense to that. None of your Reddit posts can save the hours of footage of him lying.

Are we not allowed to hold folks accountable for the things that come out of their mouths anymore? Is everything so politically correct that we can not even voice displeasure off of being misled and intentionally misinformed? Sorry to make it sound so dramatic but I almost have to at this point with some of these nonsensical arguments that completely evade fact.

Yet I guarantee you will try to come up with another post that has nothing to do with the facts and videos that I was referring to...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kuz3WETd4ug

CRINGE!

 

[PanicFreak]

This kind of nonsense is what I do not understand...

When someone is on video over fifty times promising features that are not in the final product and then refuses to answer for his nonexistent integrity, I think it is a safe bet that that individual is a liar.

There is no argument at this point in his defense. There are too many multiple dozens of videos at this point proving this man has absolutely no positive character attributes, lol...

EDIT: The hesitation in most of his lies are what give it away. You can tell how uncomfortable he is when he says yes to questions from journalists in regards to features that are not actually even in the final game. The vagueness of his "answers" also give it away... It's almost as if he knows half of the things he stated are not even possible from his team yet he promises them anyway...

This video says it all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kuz3WETd4ug

Molyneux part 2.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

What you wrote actually just says that the survival side of things has been made easy-mode due it being far too simple to accomplish said survival with essentially no forethought or preparation required, but that does nothing to affect whether or not it is an exploration game. Those are not mutually exclusive.

You are right saying it's not an explorer game was wrong, being survival first detracts majorly from the explorer side though imo.

 

[The Jackdog]

love that people are dismissing this nonsense as "BUT GAMES ARE HARD!!"

So what? They are selling a product.

If i served you a burger raw and said BUT COOKING IS HARD you wouldnt pay for it

 

[Kinyou]

It's not your fault, but people shouldn't be that suprised that things like this happen.

If you understand software development, then you can understand certain factors that contribute to compromises having to be made.

And if you don't understand, or simply just don't want to listen to those factors, since you're just the customer and shouldn't have to deal with that, then you should at least understand the risk with preordering and day 1 purchases.

The devs are of course not without blame, but customers should also know better.

If they don't inform the consumer about those changes they'll understandably be labeled as liar by those. The dev has to decide if they rather announce features being taken out or face the backslash afterwards (or maybe don't announce features that they are uncertain about in the first place), but in the end it's all on the dev and not on the consumer.

 

[TheCanisDirus]

Totally fair enough - from my experience I'd call the game "mile wide, five feet deep". There's some depth there, but yeah, far from enough.

The classic problem is that it could just be luck. Your 61st planet could be something totally new and different. Obviously this isn't a justification and your experience is your experience.

Just such an awkward fucker of a game.

Oh i completely agree! But having watched another 30+ hours of steamers playing on twitch i feel like i've seen a majority of what's currently in game. Of course as you said there is always that possibility.... and that is sort of cool! The "same-ness" of most of the planets you visit though does really dampen my enjoyment.

BUT... i still think the base "bones" of a great game are there. It will take a LOT of work and updates but NMS could one day become truly amazing. I'm just scared I and most others will have long moved on by the time that happens.

 

[JackAubrey]

I have no horse in this race. I was never particularly hyped for No Man's Sky, and I'm not planning to buy it in the near future.

But I still can't help feeling like the anger is a bit unwarranted. It's exceedingly clear that Hello Games had to rush to get this thing out the door. And this is after it was delayed multiple times at the last minute. They're a small dev that took on an exceedingly ambitious project. Of course they had to cut stuff out.

Thus, I'm inclined to believe that the guy wasn't lying. He was genuinely excited about his game and a bit overly hopeful about what they could do.

And, y'know... This is why reviews exist. It's not like he asked for Kickstarter money or anything. Everyone had the opportunity to read critical impressions before purchasing. (I'm not 100% familiar with when the review embargo was listed compared to when the game launched, but, well, this is why preorders are dumb in most cases.)

I agree with this. But in 2016 internet cry babies rule the roost, especially on Reddit.

I am a little disappointed with NMS but caveat emptor and all that. But I am well aware that games change during development.

 

[GSG Flash]

But we do have is a fully functioning game that includes all the things listed (resources, trade, factions etc) that have working systems to make a game about grinding resources to move forward. Whether that meets your expectations is a different matter , and i guess one for reviews.

You're right, all those things are included in the game, however it's pretty much the most basic implementations of those features and definitely not the way that Sean Murray described them in his interviews.

I actually agree that we have a playable game, but my biggest problem is that they're charging $60 for this game. As I mentioned before, initially I thought that this game will cost around $20 just based on what was shown, it would have been an excellent game for that price, even with all the broken promises and lies. After playing it, I feel even more strongly that it should've been priced $20 to $30. Thank God for Steam refunds.

 

[Fahzgoolin]

I can't think of any other industry that gets more excuses from their consumers as video game companies do. These devs repeatedly show and discuss a game that isn't real in the end and walk off with money. It's immoral and unjust.

 

[Prime crotch]

Molyneux delivered on his lofty goals for a long while though, even with Black and White it still wasn't all just talking out of his ass.

 

[marmoka]

Murray lied a lot, and still he wom millions of dollars with the sales.

This world sucks.

I hope people do not preorder games any more. Hope people learned the lesson.

 

[Jacksinthe]

I agree with this. But in 2016 internet cry babies rule the roost, especially on Reddit.

I am a little disappointed with NMS but caveat emptor and all that. But I am well aware that games change during development.

I assure you, multiplayer on this scale isn't something you tack on or get rid of in the final months of development.

Something like this in NMS would be on the table long before a single line of code was written. Implementation can change, but it's design would be very much set in stone early on. They had more than enough time to know if they could pull it off or if it fit their game loooooong before anybody outside the team knew the game even existed.

They still beat that horse over and over as if it was a thing. On national television, no less. Sean even answered yes when pressed about player customization.

That's not "gamedev is hard, things change" in the context of a component like MP. That's just flat-out lying about it. You don't just add it or remove it on a whim in a week. Planning for ANY kind of MP so it fits your game is a lengthy process.

 

[water_wendi]

Note: i have no horse in this race. i dont have much interest in No Mans Sky.. its doubtful ill ever even play it because its not my kind of game. Read the first post, the deleted reddit post, and the first post on the last page.

There are many people, myself included, who feel they have received the game that was advertised. I didn't follow everything about this game, but enough to justify a purchase.

They funny thing is, two weeks ago people were asking what you did in this game, yet now we suddenly have a list of things that apparently the game was meant to be. If you went back and looked at games that are released within the last few months/year, and looked at their trailers and development videos you could draw up a list of things that didn't make the games as well.

Game development is about compromise. It is governed by technical aspects as much as it by its artistic intentions.

We are in a position where people are trawling through every single interview hoping to catch the poor bloke out. That to me suggest this is more than simple criticism, and more in line with a typical boring gamer outrage. I didn't see many people citing the criticisms in the list until someone had written it out, and now it is suddenly Hello games this, hello games that.

I don't particularly like terms such as liar, molyenuex 2, etc because it is not criticism, it's abusive. If in 3 games time Murray still has the same accusations being thrown at his games, then yes, maybe we can have this discussion.

But at the moment you have to give him the benefit of the doubt. He is a relative new face in the industry that was shoved into the spotlight, with strong ideas that should be celebrated. But instead, like gamers do, especially with hyped games, they really gone in for the kill, and i think that is really sad.

All i see is a Phil Fish mark 2, Jennifer Helper, Greg Zeschuk etc happening here. Customers are owed nothing.

It is fair to criticise the game, and there are many good posts in this page doing that, but i think there is a lot to celebrate in NMS.

There are a lot of things that Sean will learn from this, but i fall into the camp that some of the behaviour surrounding this is pretty low especially the blanket statements about Sean character, and yes i think this is blown way out of proportion.

The bolded is the big takeaway from your post and it, frankly, is bullshit. i can understand a handful of things not making it. That list though? That thing is a mile long. If you are a game developer, dont make heaps of promises you cant keep.

 

[panty]

This video says it all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kuz3WETd4ug

I enjoy the game and have spent close to 15-20h already with it.

Still, that video was terrible. This whole shitstorm is so deserved. Some of you idiots actually defend this behavior, it's somehow OK to lie and fuck with paying customers. What the fuck? Don't talk shit about features that dont even exist.

There needs to be a statement to this. Why the hell would he lie about so many different things. Dude is a fucking douche.

 

[Zafir]

I can't think of any other industry that gets more excuses from their consumers as video game companies do.

To be devils advocate. In no other industry are people as 'gullible' towards what is said and shown by people in the industry. See many TV adverts which show a very idealised product.

Hype In general is crazy. Be what it does to people when it comes to defending it, or alternatively the hate it causes when they're ultimately disappointed because they got swept up by it.

 

[akileese]

If they don't inform the consumer about those changes they'll understandably be labeled as liar by those. The dev has to decide if they rather announce features being taken out or face the backslash afterwards, but in the end it's all on the dev and not on the consumer.

Look at any single time Blizzard announces a feature that doesn't get put in. Player housing, dance studio, etc. People still hold grudges against them to this day for not putting those features in.

It's a tough spot as a developer. At one point are you bound to communicate every single change major/minor put into a game to the consumers? Why isn't that just considered part of the development process? A few of the things taken out taken out we were told they didn't test well.

Honestly, the game shown at E3 in 2014 looked awesome but essentially sounded like it was too open ended and too difficult for most to enjoy. I just think the game was a victim of streamlining for mass appeal and we have no idea whether that was Hello Games' doing in trying to be too ambitious, or if it was Sony telling them to turn it down a bit so they could market it better. Remember, to the average consumer "Do whatever the hell you want in space!" isn't really an appealing tag line.

I get the hate but I do think it's pretty overblown. Both sides just need to step back from the ledge and understand that game development is a complicated process with twists and turns. Developers are not going to communicate every single feature that gets theorized and taken out. Should they have a PR person so Sean stops going out there and talking about the stuff they're working on in the future? Absolutely. But it's not as if the core of the game has changed from what he said it was two years ago. It's still space survival while trying to get to the center of the universe.

 

[SomTervo]

I have no horse in this race. I was never particularly hyped for No Man's Sky, and I'm not planning to buy it in the near future.

But I still can't help feeling like the anger is a bit unwarranted. It's exceedingly clear that Hello Games had to rush to get this thing out the door. And this is after it was delayed multiple times at the last minute. They're a small dev that took on an exceedingly ambitious project. Of course they had to cut stuff out.

Thus, I'm inclined to believe that the guy wasn't lying. He was genuinely excited about his game and a bit overly hopeful about what they could do.

And, y'know... This is why reviews exist. It's not like he asked for Kickstarter money or anything. Everyone had the opportunity to read critical impressions before purchasing. (I'm not 100% familiar with when the review embargo was listed compared to when the game launched, but, well, this is why preorders are dumb in most cases.)

Feel exactly the same.

1. I don't think he was lying - I think they didn't realise just how restrictive the PS4's architecture would be until the 11th hour and had to quickly, and drastically, downscale.

2. Always wait for reviews. Or, at the very least, be prepared to refund anything you buy.

You literally never know what you're going to get.

Molyneux delivered on his lofty goals for a long while though, even with Black and White it still wasn't all just talking out of his ass.

He absolutely didn't, lmao! This is like an opposite world post.

Black and White and Fable were like being presented with a single slice of salami when he promised a 16" pizza. With No Man's Sky, we got the 16" pizza. It just only had tomato sauce on it.

 

[nynt9]

Murray lied a lot, and still he wom millions of dollars with the sales.

This world sucks.

I hope people do not preorder games any more. Hope people learned the lesson.

It's not even preorders. Reviewers mostly did not highlight these issues, the community did, so there really is no way of knowing without people buying the game. That's the nature of games. Reviewers don't go deep on games and many of them are borderline marketers. They generally don't like to antagonize publishers. So we can't really trust them to advocate for us like that and we can't trust them to do in depth analyses highlighting what feature was lost. They don't get paid enough to do this kind of analysis which would take dozens of hours. Why do that when they can just go on Reddit and find the post someone already did and post about it?

 

[The Jackdog]

It's not even preorders. Reviewers mostly did not highlight these issues, the community did, so there really is no way of knowing without people buying the game. That's the nature of games. Reviewers don't go deep on games and many of them are borderline marketers. They generally don't like to antagonize publishers. So we can't really trust them to advocate for us like that and we can't trust them to do in depth analyses highlighting what feature was lost. They don't get paid enough to do this kind of analysis which would take dozens of hours. Why do that when they can just go on Reddit and find the post someone already did and post about it?

this is i think a huge issue.

whenever a game comes out that does this, the community is the one that finds everything.

game journalism is a joke

 

[Baalzebup]

This could just be my personal experience.

I've been to about 60 systems and through maybe 4 or 5 black holes and visited too many planets to remember. (not a ton compared to some i know but more than enough) I've personally seen things repeat far too often. I've come to know and recognize the different "planet types" and most of the flora and fauna variations. I can spot the base parts with ease and see how they're used and where/when. I've encountered each of the races and taken most of their histories and language and relations as far as they can. Most of this was accomplished within my first 4 or 5 jumps. My experience could be completely different than yours though. I could have hit the jackpot with planets and variable etc.

For me the "mile wide, inch deep" sentiment in 100% accurate. Absolutely so.

Oh, I agree with that sentiment in general, though I guess I would personally rate the depth part a bit less shallow . I just get my groove from seeing the simple yet pretty sights and looking for those rare moments of "whoa" even after I've arrived at the phase of "oh, that particular formation of stuff again" in general. The amount of new, cool shit does definitely take a nosedive, but this is the part there the limits and likes of each individual become a factor. I guess I'm lucky being highly tolerant of samey boredom if it is alleviated by occasional coolness. Personal thresholds and stuff.

You are right saying it's not an explorer game was wrong, being survival first detracts majorly from the explorer side though imo.

I personally found it to be more about using the upgrades to shift the focus from survival more toward the exploration, whereas early on the survival is more of a hassle. With maxed upgraded shit and a few helpful formulas, the survival part is a minor distraction at worst, even in the most hostile environments. but this is definitely a thing very dependent on the players tastes and views.

and that's fine. i'm happy for people who like what the game is and are satisfied with the product they bought, it's cool that they have a fun new game to play.

but those people dismissing the concerns and complaints of people who wanted the other half of what was promised just because they don't care about that part are being shitty. you can like a game and still be critical of it, or listen to criticism without getting personally defensive.

i understand that some people are being too vitriolic and that sucks. it's never ok to harass or abuse anyone, even and especially developers who have disappointed you. however you also can't just come into threads like this and make blanket statements against witch hunting or mobbing when the vast majority of what's happening here is people who bought the game trying to figure out what's in it.

these are reasonable complaints and it's no more excusable than any misleading AAA game's advertising. sean murray doesn't get a pass because he's the head of a small team or a nice guy. he doesn't get a pass because everyone else does it too. he made multiple affirmative statements about the kind of game this is as recently as a few months ago when he had to have known that certain features and ideas were not making the cut.

And I agree with what you say. I just found the statement of the whole foundation missing to be tad hyperbolic.

The biggest stinker in this whole thing is the piss poor communication, not coming clean with what was going in and what wasn't.

Molyneux delivered on his lofty goals for a long while though, even with Black and White it still wasn't all just talking out of his ass.

And now this here is just plain silly. Molyneux was talking such an amount of plain bullshit about B&W that you could drown the entire NMS starter galaxy in it.

 

[danowat]

This video says it all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kuz3WETd4ug

What went wrong..........

 

[Prime crotch]

He absolutely didn't, lmao! This is like an opposite world post.

Black and White and Fable were like being presented with a single slice of salami when he promised a 16" pizza. With No Man's Sky, we got the 16" pizza. It just only had tomato sauce on it.

Up until Fable Molyneux had a good track record between his ammount of bs and what was delivered, Bullfrog's output is proof enough of that. Black & White idea of a learning AI was delivered upon.

And now this here is just plain silly. Molyneux was talking such an amount of plain bullshit about B&W that you could drown the entire NMS starter galaxy in it.

Not really, he did went on what they could potentially achieve, which was pure dreamy (bullshit), but what they delivered it was solid albeit with compromises.

Fable and onward though, lol

 

[Ripenen]

I can't think of any other industry that gets more excuses from their consumers as video game companies do. These devs repeatedly show and discuss a game that isn't real in the end and walk off with money. It's immoral and unjust.

Can you think of any other industry where a product gets so much pre-release coverage? Sometimes non-game software products will get some coverage if they do a beta release but typically at that point the product is at least close to feature complete. Apple hypes up their newest OS versions and applications at WWDC but they keep the time between the reveal and the release very tight, and those are typically iterative releases.

A product changes a ton in a couple years or more of development. It's a bit absurd to be promoting something that early, but that's the way the game industry is for some reason.

 

[ClosingADoor]

this is i think a huge issue.

whenever a game comes out that does this, the community is the one that finds everything.

game journalism is a joke

You got everything ranging from a 5 to a 10 in reviews, so calling it all a joke is a bit strange: http://www.metacritic.com/game/playstation-4/no-mans-sky/critic-reviews

Pick outlets you trust, read multiple viewpoints, etc. That goes for all media.

 

[KingSnake]

See, to me, it very much is an exploration game. I can jump on my ship, fly to a planet that seems to have a fancy color, land, freely picking my landing spot, and just hop off. I can jump into a radioactive sea, scare off a few thingies that look like giant fanged tadpoles and swim into an underwater cave just to see how far it goes. Then after I've fucked around a bit, I jump back onto my ship, fly back to the orbit, take my bearings, seek out another planet and land in lush green fields with bright red trees and some space-deer leaping about. Then I climb the nearby hill to see what is on the other side.

And you don't need to do absolutely nothing else to do all those things? You're presenting the game the same as Sean and it's a false image because you're purposely ignoring all the resource grinding without which you can't even fly away from the planet.

 

[thecouncil]

I posted a lot in that other thread where people were bad-mouthing Sean and his buddies. I haven't posted here until now because I've been playing one of the best games of all time. It's called No Man's Sky, if any of you have heard of it?

Anyway, for the life of me, I still don't understand how people can call Sean a liar.
Of all the people I don't know, he is the least likely to lie to me.

This is a man who was so excited about the game he created that he forgot his shoes during that one interview. If you can name one other shoeless developer that didn't tell mis-truths about his game, I'll eat my hat.

And so what if he talked about a game that never existed and then gave us a different game?
That's what all good developers do. This honest, humble man is a hero in the industry. His creativity knows no bounds except for the capabilities of the PS4, I guess.