Support NeoGAF

[Veelk]

I mean, it's fair that there could have been other ways, but that doesn't mean that this one is necessarily wrong, and pulling suggestions to safe ones like "oh she's a reporter now" instead of having accurate representations is too safe for my taste. You have people actually commentating that it's culturally on point. I don't know why you seem to be keen on pulling up something that would make it safer and thereby less confrontational.

That I can roll with. Like I said twice now, I'm not saying that ND did a wrong move here. I'm waiting to see how the debate progresses, since portrayal of Muslims and their particular problems aren't something I've studied in depth yet.

So as of yet, I'm of no opinion on ND's portrayal. I was just trying to squash the standard go-to bad arguments before they got out of the gate, save everyone some time.

 

[Ratrat]

What do you expect from a franchise about American heroes fighting Asian, Russian and British antagonists?


Jokes aside, Naughty Dog seem very concious of these kind of issues now. I doubt it was intended to be percieved that way, and hell, they may even change it now if enough people question it.

 

[Heavy's Sandvich]

I hope you never see the Amazon advert that's airing over here in the UK then.

im in london, what amazon advert?

 

[Fat4all]

I was just trying to squash the standard go-to bad arguments before they got out of the gate.

I think a good bit of those would-be posters got banned in yesterday's ND thread, but you never know.

 

[spekkeh]

Seems like overanalyzing.
We have a protagonist we're supposed to sympathize with in hijab--strongly positive. She's using it as a disguise--neutral--(hijabs are meant to be disguises, come on), but people might interpret it as being used for terrorism--somewhat laboured negative explanation. That's still mostly positive.

If anyone should be complaining, it's that all Indian men are portrayed as violent, repressive and/or horndogs.

But eh, it's fiction.

 

[BratmanDu]

In AC you disguise as priests, scholars, cardinals, etc. It's just games innit? Doesn't sound like ND are making any kind of statement.

 

[BossDarkseid]

im in london, what amazon advert?

I think they mean this one, unless there's another I'm not aware of.

 

[Glass Rebel]

Well there's always the "It's important to have a discussion about it" but what does that actually mean? What's the endgoal of it? That some perceive it as an intent on setting limits isn't all that far fetched

The endgoal is to educate people about the cultures depicted and the potentially harmful stereotypes they might perpetuate. In the hopes that creators that borrow from these cultures approach them with the necessary respect and sensitivity and that the consumers that engage with them have a certain awareness and maybe gain some empathy towards members of these cultures. There's people in this thread that learned about Indian customs. For me that's a net positive.

Nobody is saying they shouldn't depict these cultures but that doesn't mean they are free from criticism. I believe it's fine to fail as long as you learn from it. "Having a discussion about it" will only lead to more accurate depictions.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

It's a hijab worn in an Indian city . Muslims form a significant part of our population and if you go to heavily muslim dominated areas it's perfectly normal to see a woman in a hijab . So she could be blending in with her fellow city dwellers ... Think is making something out of nothing

Edit as some have pointed out it's actually a dupatta ... Worn over a salwaar kameez . This is obvious is later sections when she's fighting etc . Its a very normal garb to wear in India . And It's not even religious .

I appreciate your perspective on the matter, and you have basically summarised better what I was going to say.

 

[krimsoncharge]

As others have mentioned it, its not a hijab/niqab. Its a dupatta (shawl/stole) thats traditionally worn with a salwar kameez or kurta and its not a religious thing at all. Everyone from the common folk to celebrities and politicians wear it of all religion wear it.

 

[Ferr986]

2016. Where people are overly sensitive and get offended over everything.


.

This have to be some kind of meme now. Everytime someone tried to discuss something there's always the guy saying "everyone gets offended now". Funny part is that they are the ones that sounds more offended.

 

[Shredderi]

There's definitely a discussion to be had about this and stuff like this in general. At the same time I kinda do understand why most of the western devs only do the same safe stuff centered around culturally white things. This reminds me, in Assassin's Creed 1 you disquise yourself in priest garments and stuff. Was there conversation about that stuff at the time of it's release? I wasn't there for the game when it came out.

 

[Portugeezer]

She is just blending in.

 

[Tomeru]

Its probably best if most take the "its nothing" way. You cant educate people on religion matters, so just acting like its nothing is best imho.

I'm actually anti-religious (as its now), so Inever look at religious stuff as religious or harmful. Its just cloths.

 

[pelican]

First of all its not just niqab/hijab , its a dupatta , most of the indian women wear that, and not just the muslim women.

Second doing face cover from men is somewhat traditional to do in india for women , especially in stranger place. So its perfectly done as it should be done by other women if presented in that situation.

So demeaning of religion is nothing to do with anything they have done in that walkthrough,there is veil on saree and dupattas on salwar kameez, they potray it effectively.

Thanks for the clarification.

Perhaps I misunderstood the OP, but I feel it was looking for something an offense which doesn't exist.

 

[TheSpoiler]

That I can roll with. Like I said twice now, I'm not saying that ND did a wrong move here. I'm waiting to see how the debate progresses, since portrayal of Muslims and their particular problems aren't something I've studied in depth yet.

So as of yet, I'm of no opinion on ND's portrayal. I was just trying to squash the standard go-to bad arguments before they got out of the gate, save everyone some time.

I'd hope GAF would be a decent place and we wouldn't need that, but other topics have shown me different!

 

[rochellepaws]

Their portrayal is legitimate and made sense in context. I wouldn't like for them to compromise their vision around ignorance or prejudice, I think those sort of fears around misinterpretation causing offence is why so many developers are fearful of using settings outside of the US. Which is a shame since I'm getting mighty bored of playing games set in US urban areas.

 

[JoJo UK]

That's not the point. It is a Western piece of media produced by a Western company for a Western audience. It evokes a negative image that is ingrained in Western culture.

Some will agree, others will disagree. And that's fine.

Surely the correct response is to educate people rather than avoid things why may cause offence? I mean the item of clothing question doesn't even have any religious meaning, it was peoples stereotypical views in this thread perceiving it in such a way. Surely that is was should be discussed, our/the west/whoever it may be incorrect and blinkered views. Just my opinion!

It would be good for the OP to update the first post with the correct information regarding said piece of clothing, to educate anyone else viewing the thread.

The endgoal is to educate people about the cultures depicted and the potentially harmful stereotypes they might perpetuate. In the hopes that creators that borrow from these cultures approach them with the necessary respect and sensitivity and that the consumers that engage with them have a certain awareness and maybe gain some empathy towards members of these cultures. There's people in this thread that learned about Indian customs. For me that's a net positive.

Nobody is saying they shouldn't depict these cultures but that doesn't mean they are free from criticism. I believe it's fine to fail as long as you learn from it. "Having a discussion about it" will only lead to more accurate depictions.

Do you think ND wrong on this occasion, or was it the ignorance of people in this thread?

 

[TheSpoiler]

Surely the correct response is to educate people rather than avoid things why may cause offence? I mean the item of clothing question doesn't even have any religious meaning, it was peoples stereotypical views in this thread perceiving it in such a way. Surely that is was should be discussed, our/the west/whoever it may be incorrect and blinkered views. Just my opinion!

It would be good for the OP to update the first post with the correct information regarding said piece of clothing, to education anyone else viewing the thread.

Yeah they should probably do so because it's gonna undermine their point.

 

[khaaan]

I think they mean this one, unless there's another I'm not aware of.

Aw, that was cute. Makes me want to

Spoiler

wish I had friends so I could

give everyone gifts.

 

[Glass Rebel]

Surely the correct response is to educate people rather than avoid things why may cause offence? I mean the item of clothing question doesn't even have any religious meaning, it was peoples stereotypical views in this thread perceiving it in such a way. Surely that is was should be discussed, our/the west/whoever it may be incorrect and blinkered views. Just my opinion!

It would be good for the OP to update the first post with the correct information regarding said piece of clothing, to education anyone else viewing the thread.

Yes, which is what's happening in this thread. Because people who are genuinely interested in the topic are discussing it and sharing facts and opinions. But there's always a bunch of people trying to stifle discussion because "it's just games".

Yeah they should probably do so because it's gonna undermine their point.

It's not gonna undermine anything.

 

[TheSpoiler]

It's not gonna undermine anything.

So then what would be the harm in having correct information?

 

[Heavy's Sandvich]

So then what would be the harm in having correct information?

once im home will add them in, i did also reply to that point which i think is important too.

 

[CosmicRomancer]

I understand OP's concern. Like others have said, as long there's a discussion, people will learn. I certainly have.

 

[Glass Rebel]

Do you think ND wrong on this occasion, or was it the ignorance of people in this thread?

You're making the assumption that I think there's a "wrong" and a "right" in this discussion. I am saying that both Naughty Dog and the people playing their games have to be aware of what they're showing/seeing and the impact these images have.

So then what would be the harm in having correct information?

Who said there was harm? I am saying that it being a dulpatta/shalwar kameez combo doesn't change the image it evokes in Western popular culture and social consciousness.

 

[GobFather]

That's not the point. It is a Western piece of media produced by a Western company for a Western audience. It evokes a negative image that is ingrained in Western culture.

Some will agree, others will disagree. And that's fine.

Why are you already assuming so much? These games are not just for western audience. Would it have been better if a non-western company made the exact same scene? Does ND not have any diversity in their company despite being a western company?

And there are people posting from other parts of the world ... even someone from India is saying it's not an issue but a reality of the culture. Too many people are being overly sensitive trying to defend a culture they don't know anything about.... from their own worldview perspective.. It's nice that people care enough to question it, but some claims makes no sense when they have no understanding of the culture.

 

[crimilde]

If anything, I'm actually hoping that this game will help spread the understanding and it will educate people on the cultural values, tradition and customs of India.

I've a lot of Indian colleagues at work and it's always fascinating to hear them talk about their rich culture and traditions, so if ND manage to do an accurate portrayal of India and spread knowledge, it's a positive thing in my book.

 

[The Boat]

To me this sounds like wanting to forego logic to censor cultural traditions and "realistic" representations of places and people to avoid some hypothetical, tangentially related problems.

It would be like not showing a Muslim saying Allahu Akbar because Muslim terrorists also say it, so you're afraid that people make the connection between regular, decent people who happen to be Muslim and terrorists.

This doesn't work nor does it make sense. The truth makes sense, educating people makes sense, showing that there are plenty of cultures with traditions that go beyond our limited knowledge of them makes sense. Letting prejudice and harmful stereotypes lead to censorship of cultures and harmless traditions does not.

 

[JoJo UK]

You're making the assumption that I think there's a "wrong" and a "right" in this discussion. I am saying that both Naughty Dog and the people playing their games have to be aware of what they're showing/seeing and the impact these images have.



Who said there was harm? I am saying that it being a dulpatta/shalwar kameez combo doesn't change the image it evokes in Western popular culture and social consciousness.

Yeah I see your point. I personally do think there is a wrong, people were wrong to assume the garment in question had a religious meaning. They were factually wrong and shows their ignorance on the subject. It's that train of thought that needs to change, not ND showing an everyday piece of clothing from somewhere other than UK/USA. But yeah I see where your coming from.

I ll be honest I'm from the UK (Northern Ireland, the most backward of the UK ) and didn't see it as anything religious, I just thought 'India' (I hope that doesn't sound ignorant, sorry!). I couldn't have told you the name of it however.

 

[antyk]

As you said, I don't think it was intentionally harmful, knowing ND's track record, but it shows a disappointing lack of awareness and sensitivity concerning Muslim culture.

It's a difficult discussion.

On one hand - and I think this was ND's intention - she was dressed like that just to blend in, as women in that region are expected to dress this way. This however leads to ND being accused of propagating the image that traditional Muslim clothes' function is to disguise, trick, deceive, hide something, etc.

On the other, if she was dressed like she normally did in Uncharted 2, ND would be accused of not being aware and sensitive to the expectations of Muslim culture or even of trying to portrait her as a woman who wants to use her sex to distract or flirt with the guards to - again - trick, deceive them.

It's a lose / lose situation for ND, frankly just because people are looking for hidden agendas where there are none.

 

[Glass Rebel]

It's a difficult discussion.

On one hand - and I think this was ND's intention - she was dressed like that just to blend in, as women in that region are expected to dress this way. This however leads to ND being accused of propagating the image that traditional Muslim clothes' function is to disguise, trick, deceive, hide something, etc.

On the other, if she was dressed like she normally did in Uncharted 2, ND would be accused of not being aware and sensitive to the expectations of Muslim culture or even of trying to portrait her as a woman who wants to use her sex to distract or flirt with the guards to - again - trick, deceive them.

It's a lose / lose situation for ND, frankly just because people are looking for hidden agendas where there are none.

Nobody is looking for a hidden agenda. OP said they don't think it's intentional and nobody has accused Naughty Dog of doing anything malicious. People are literally just asking others to take the concerns of marginalized groups seriously. But apparently that's too hard for some.

 

[paragonpro]

While I certainly dont think there intent was malicioud your argument is completley valid.

 

[Heavy's Sandvich]

Austin walker in this monday's waypoint podcast calls it a hijab. point to show faithfulness to accuracy is not seen by the audience that doesn't understand the nuance.

 

[Chev]

to be fair, don't terrorists use women in full body clothes as suicide bombers in places like pakistan and afghanistan?

Terrorists also use guns so we should remove guns from games.

 

[Salty Rice]

I think people interpret too much into this.

Its a video game where a character used a disguise to infiltrate a area.

 

[crazy monkey]

That was NOT religious. Lol it is common outfit. Man woman cover their faces for pollution too.

 

[antyk]

Nobody is looking for a hidden agenda. OP said they don't think it's intentional and nobody has accused Naughty Dog of doing anything malicious. People are literally just asking others to take the concerns of marginalized groups seriously. But apparently that's too hard for some.

Ok, maybe I misunderstood what you meant, but I took it as "ND shouldn't make her wearing those clothes, because some people might get offended by the suggestion that Muslim clothes are designed to hide / deceive / trick, etc." and I only said there's no winning for ND, because if they'd dress her "normally" some people could be also offended that she's portrayed as a "sexy spy" or whatever stereotype...

If ND - or any developer, actually - was to really take into account how every possible design decision will be taken by any small group of people, then we wouldn't have any games to play.

Which is especially funny in the context of ND game, since they've proved time and again they're actually in the forefront of political correctness trying to give representation to people of colour, LGBT community, etc.

 

[Tuck]

I thought she was wearing it because she was in a part of the world where it is frequently worn?

 

[PulseONE]

She wasn't wearing anything particularly religious, its not a hijab. Women in India dress like that on a regular basis

 

[Glass Rebel]

Ok, maybe I misunderstood what you meant, but I took it as "ND shouldn't make her wearing those clothes..."

Well, you were wrong.

 

[Necro900]

Austin walker in this monday's waypoint podcast calls it a hijab. point to show faithfulness to accuracy is not seen by the audience that doesn't understand the nuance.

So are you suggesting artists should censor their work because people might not understand?

We should not be penalized for people's ignorance. "Simplifying" a product for "mass consumption" and for the least controversy possible is gross.

 

[OfTheOverflow]

I thought it was really cool to see, actually. Didn't make me think ill of Muslims or anything, it just makes complete sense contextually.

 

[LiLSnorpSnorp]

I think it's use in some media (e.g., Homeland) is two things (when used the way it has been in the game): one is that it is an obvious choice for disguise. The second is that, in many areas of the ME, it has just as much cultural pretext as it does religious. I don't think it's use in this situation is offensive because of the intent.

Edit: is NOT offensive

 

[Heavy's Sandvich]

So are you suggesting artists should censor their work because people might not understand?

We should not be penalized for people's ignorance. "Simplifying" a product for "mass consumption" and for the least controversy possible is gross.

refer to my answer post 50. not asking to censor anything.

 

[RibMan]

Austin walker in this monday's waypoint podcast calls it a hijab. point to show faithfulness to accuracy is not seen by the audience that doesn't understand the nuance.

An uninformed audience member does not represent the audience. Be honest with yourself: Is it Naughty Dog's fault that a number of people do not know the difference between a Dupatta and a hijab?

 

[Izcarielo]

Makes sense for Chloe to use that in order to infiltrate that military outpost in the trailer, tbh.

 

[Necro900]

refer to my answer post 50. not asking to censor anything.

I see. In response to that, my stance is: you keep the artistic integrity (and accuracy) of your product and hope it will spark some curiosity in those who don't really know what they're dealing with (as it did in this thread).

If people really want to push that stereotype even when that's not even a niqab, that's not on ND to fix. Also, changing anything of what they've shown so far wouldn't even "fix" the issue, it would avoid it, and no one would ever raise a concern or wonder if that's a hijab/a niqab or something else one should know about.

 

[antyk]

Well, you were wrong.

Ok, so what's your point then? Because this...

You're making the assumption that I think there's a "wrong" and a "right" in this discussion. I am saying that both Naughty Dog and the people playing their games have to be aware of what they're showing/seeing and the impact these images have.

Who said there was harm? I am saying that it being a dulpatta/shalwar kameez combo doesn't change the image it evokes in Western popular culture and social consciousness.

...gives the impression that you expect from ND - and every other developer - to take into account how their design decision can potentially be perceived by all possible groups of people. It's a very conscious and politically correct thing to say, but it leaves very little room for the creators to actually tell a story they want to tell.

So, in this particular example - what she should be wearing?

 

[Kilau]

I think they mean this one, unless there's another I'm not aware of.

Thank you for sharing that, I hadn't seen it.

 

[Skrams]

Is this as bad as that time in Lupin the 3rd Castle of Cagliostro where Lupin was disguised as a Pope Christian guy to sneak into the wedding?

Or that time when Altair blended into that group of monks walking by because a lot of media uses disguises.