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Religious people are nicer
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plagiarize
Banned
well, there's a logical reason for it. publically being an atheist in America can pretty much only have negative effects. if you're lucky it has no effect. Atheists that aren't eager to spread the agenda, generally just stay schtum about it.iapetus said:You're meeting the wrong atheists.
I find it terribly confusing that religious people in these discussions never seem to meet the nice atheists, and the pushier atheists never seem to meet the nice religious people. We should organise some sort of exchange system, then everyone could just get along.
the zealots in religion are outspoken, and most atheists will hear those opinions as a result.
plagiarize said:
Because human minds seem to be set up in such a way that they like to polarise things into 'them' and 'us', which is really what's at the root of the problem because it often makes us incapable of sensible discussion about subjects like religion and politics (especially US politics).
That's why people who are certainly capable of being perfectly rational (and would normally claim to be rational) find it so easy to suspend that when it comes to the 'other side'.
plagiarize
Banned
neorej, here is how you deal with that.neorej said:
if they truly believe that bad things happen to non believers they are only trying to save you from those bad things.
if you are arguing against their beliefs, unless their beliefs are negatively impacting them, why are you doing it?
i'm an atheist, whose eyes are open enough to see that SOME people find religion and become happier people as a result. it helps some turn their lives around. it can be a positive thing. it isn't always, but it is regularly.
that friend is likely just being a friend. instead of shooting them down with science, maybe try to explain to them how it makes you feel.
plagiarize
Banned
i know you have your eyes open. i'm not trying to preach to those that don't need it!iapetus said:
i know why it happens, but i hope Barkz can realise what they're doing and maybe make a positive step towards acceptance.
atheists in the UK aren't seen as they are here in America, and i think both atheist groups and religious groups are responsible for the difference in America. i'm not interested in figuring out who started things, but atheists would behave better if religious people treated them nicer, and visa versa.
plagiarize
Banned
why?Uchip said:
plagiarize said:
Sorry it wasn't a blanket statement for all atheists. This goes for everyone atheist/religious/agnostic. The quote that offended you was more of an expression of how 2 different arguing sides attack the other in the same way without knowing. If anyone is/has been civil then obviously the statement was not meant for you
There has been some really awesome contributions here on both sides of the argument. My comment is more aimed at fostering more of an intellectual debate then contributing to the flaming.
I am religious and I do not wish for 'gays' to die (as some have claimed that all religious people do); just as you are atheist and do not wish to 'punch things' because I am devout (as some here have claimed).
You da man plagiarize! Pleased to meet you as well!
travisbickle
Member
Don't humor AiTM, he hasn't met any atheists he just heard that joke by Dane Cook, you know the one about the "aggressive atheist on the train", and now he believes all atheists are like that.
Uchip said:
It doesn't matter and is a non-issue...the niceness of someone is subjective and varies from person to person...
Societies measures niceness and goodness by actions not intentions...
We can't measure intentions but we sure can measure acts and contributions made because we see physical evidence of these acts manifested.
Hari Seldon
Member
F#A#Oo said:
The study defined niceness as volunteer work, contributions to charity, etc, i.e actions.
travisbickle said:
I haven't met many, a handful at college and a few professors. Every self pro-claimed atheist I have met has fit what I said entirely. No telling how many I met who didn't talk about it, no way of knowing. However the sweetest, nicest, and most giving people I met have been religious. You can bash me for it, but its just my experience in life.
Edit: Wow just looked at the last page. Easy fellas just relating my experience. I was saying the ones who I have met and made it known, not equating it to every atheist.
Hey guys. Guys. Listen. We're taught to be jerks to each other. Is it any surprise that we're jerks to each other? Probably from grade school on, or if yo're lucky, in high school we're taught the world is a hostile place, and everything became a battle about finding out where you fit in it. So when you come up against something that challenges the place you carved out in the world, your beliefs, your comfort zone, your mental real estate, you react in a defensive manner. I don't care if you're an atheist or a christian scientist for God's sake, I've seen both sides become unfairly defensive and what often follows next is some sort of retaliation.
Kurdel:
Belief is something that's impossible to understand unless you have it. We all know the nature and power of doubt, so if you could imagine belief in religion or a spiritual existence, or at least get in touch with your doubt and understand the opposite of that, it might help you at least empathize with believers. And once you do that, try to imagine the cognitive dissonance a believer who has an understanding of science and logic and all the problems with religion, try to figure out how they fit all of that together. People who cling to beliefs out of ignorance and fear, you don't ease someone's fear by screaming at them about how stupid they are. We get that from school, our social training, admonish the child, embarrass him in front of his peers, he's wrong and we have the right answer, so he deserves it. 'This is how we learn'...
You say you're upset about the religious folks up in arms and trying to affect the educational content of our text books for political and religious reasons. Let me tell you the kicker of how all that started. Someone, probably not a Democrat or a Libertarian or even an Independent, went into their churches and their communities and set them letters and made phone calls and asked them "if they knew what the government was doing to their children". Some rich political interest set these religiously unpolitical folks off like a pack of mad lemmings and you're only too eager to pick them off, while the ring leaders are taking over Congress and changing everything in the name of those people in their Churches. You're getting mad at the pawns in the game, and arguing over the internet like it helps. I just want to point that out since it seems you're upset over actual concrete issues, unlike some others.
Kurdel:
Belief is something that's impossible to understand unless you have it. We all know the nature and power of doubt, so if you could imagine belief in religion or a spiritual existence, or at least get in touch with your doubt and understand the opposite of that, it might help you at least empathize with believers. And once you do that, try to imagine the cognitive dissonance a believer who has an understanding of science and logic and all the problems with religion, try to figure out how they fit all of that together. People who cling to beliefs out of ignorance and fear, you don't ease someone's fear by screaming at them about how stupid they are. We get that from school, our social training, admonish the child, embarrass him in front of his peers, he's wrong and we have the right answer, so he deserves it. 'This is how we learn'...
You say you're upset about the religious folks up in arms and trying to affect the educational content of our text books for political and religious reasons. Let me tell you the kicker of how all that started. Someone, probably not a Democrat or a Libertarian or even an Independent, went into their churches and their communities and set them letters and made phone calls and asked them "if they knew what the government was doing to their children". Some rich political interest set these religiously unpolitical folks off like a pack of mad lemmings and you're only too eager to pick them off, while the ring leaders are taking over Congress and changing everything in the name of those people in their Churches. You're getting mad at the pawns in the game, and arguing over the internet like it helps. I just want to point that out since it seems you're upset over actual concrete issues, unlike some others.
Meus Renaissance
Member
Zaraki_Kenpachi said:
No. If we're talking about examples in where religious people are not as nice then the most common scenario would be the way they talk/deal with those who do not share their beliefs or even challenge them. I'm saying that religious leaders know how to talk to people from different backgrounds - they are trained for that. Common people on the street, the ones who attend religious events, are not. And so you're far more likely to get into a heated argument with regular religious folk than you are with a pastor.
plagiarize
Banned
see, this is why i know i get overly defensive... but at the same time i'm glad to see the distinction made. not everyone makes it, so it's difficult for me to see it going unsaid... because it's not something i can presume.AiTM said:
i'm self proclaimed, card carrying, you name it, but in all honesty i outed myself not knowing what it meant in america... so that makes me an unusual atheist in that regard. most atheists i know aren't public about it.
and yeah, most of the ones that i know who are open about it fit into the 'AND HAVE YOU GOT A PROBLEM WITH THAT?' spoiling for a fight category. so i firmly believe that you've met many atheists like that.
cause i have too. and yeah, gaf has a few too many of them for my tastes as well.
cj_iwakura
Member
I'm Catholic and I'm friends with a few atheists, so my opinion is that it's the person, not the religion. It doesn't define your personality, it adds to it.
I'll leave you with some words from Sonny Sandoval.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=robulRBo4wA
I'll leave you with some words from Sonny Sandoval.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=robulRBo4wA
plagiarize
Banned
it's okay. we're cool. you were wondering outloud if the atheists in this thread knew they were doing the same thing as the people they were criticising, and i'm overly sensitive to people generalising about atheists.Barkz said:
it's clear to me now that you were talking about specific people and not including every atheist in the thread in that statement.
dead souls
Member
AiTM said:
I bet you have.
How do you know the religious beliefs, or lack of beliefs, of everyone you meet?
crazy monkey
Banned
extreme people are annoying an sound angry all the time in both sides. On gaf atheist are far more aggressive and annoying.
Behavior on an individual level is one thing, but I have a hard time buying the generalization of religious goodness. While a religion itself might not be a problem, religious intolerance is a major problem and at the core it's that self-righteous belief that is spread within it's ranks.
I see nothing "nice" about war, genocide, and terrorism. Religion has been the basis of many if not most horrible atrocities, and if there is a time when man is judged, religion will be considered the embarassment of the human race and the downfall of the species.
There is no religious intolerance without religion. Random acts of kindness will never make up for the historical atrocities.
I see nothing "nice" about war, genocide, and terrorism. Religion has been the basis of many if not most horrible atrocities, and if there is a time when man is judged, religion will be considered the embarassment of the human race and the downfall of the species.
There is no religious intolerance without religion. Random acts of kindness will never make up for the historical atrocities.
astroturfing
Member
dead souls said:
exactly.
and because, especially in America, the term "atheist" has a negative stigma attached to it, the nicest atheists don't like to proclaim their atheism very much. so you won't notice them. you'll only notice the ones that are proudly atheist and sometimes obnoxious. so it might seem that every single atheist you come across is a condescending asshole..
i once spoke to a few American tourists here in Finland who talked to me about God and Jesus and whatnot, and i just nodded and kind of agreed with them, because i wanted to be nice. they probably thought i was a nice young Christian man, when in reality i was an atheist just trying to be nice..
they WERE super nice though
Mr. B Natural
Member
People that want something or have something to sell will always be nicer than those that don't. Can't think of an example where being disingenuous meant acting meaner than you actually are., it's almost always the opposite.
This is what I never get. If atheists don't have the ability to call out a typical religious person online with Google at their disposal, I'm amazed they're so good at it in the wild. I guess them not succeeding in converting counts as a call out too perhaps.neorej said:
This makes no sense. Why would I purposely disbelieve something just to prove my belief in it? If it's scientifically impossible to disprove God exists, then stop trying to do so in simple statement form- thus requiring me to ask for proof of what you're stating as fact.neorej said:
After all, if you can't prove non-existence then the the correct scientific course of action would be to shut up about it and leave religious belief in the religious belief section & science in the science section like religious people do rather than falsely claiming religious people hate science which is another statement that is laughably wrong in this thread.
iapetus said:
I have to agree with this. On both sides of the fence. It's just general etiquette to at least be considerate of other people's opinions or beliefs. Especially if they're harmless and ironically instead, as this study and research shows, potentially makes them 'nicer' people. That's not to say people shouldn't express their own opinions, but the method and delivery of expressing it can make all the difference.
Obviously though, there are as you mentioned "asshat's" who don't care, so long as they think they are right, they disregard all courteousness and etiquette.
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plagiarize
Banned
and i will say that i have zero problems with the religious people that do just that. of course we do have to deal with religious people trying to get religion into science lessons, but that's not every religious person. worldwide, most christians believe in evolution, for example.JGS said:
i don't know that you can say 'most' in america, but i'm sure a large group of christians believe in evolution here too.
the notion of doing this isn't exclusive to religious people though. i seperate the two myself as an atheist.
Non-overlapping magisteria has been destroyed time and time again. What world do people live in, in which the beliefs one holds in a particular subject never bleed over? No one is claiming religious people hate science, the issue is that both views can't be right in numerous, but not all instances. There is plenty of cognitive dissonance or compartmentalization that goes on that allows people to function normally in society without those beliefs conflicting. One could earn a PhD in a variety of subjects and never be asked to confront or analyze those beliefs. That doesn't work too well on the internet, where people are willing to ask and argue, thus the "militant" atheist.JGS said:
IT'S JUST A THEORY.Stridone said:
plagiarize
Banned
evolution isn't a theory. it's an observed fact.MuseManMike said:
now the THEORY of evolution however, that is a theory...
how long shall we keep this going?
plagiarize
Banned
it's funny that people keep saying and agreeing to this, because not everyone here is doing that.Azih said:
and in claiming that everyone here is doing that, the people agreeing with the above statements are also generalising.
plagiarize
Banned
why is a mouse that spins?MuseManMike said:
umop_3pisdn
Member
electroshockwave said:
Haha, Jesus, how does Chris Dunn not recognize the profound irony of calling for the leader of the Atheist organization to be crucified? Christians the new Romans/Pharisees confirmed? Unless this is an example of Poe's law.
Oppo
Member
The study is kind of interesting. I wouldn't find it too difficult to believe (and I'm an atheist.). But it has some big problems.
The biggest of which, to my mind, is that it is simply self-reported. Of course people who regularly attend church in America will say they have a generous spirit, that's one of the things that is pure dogma in these circles. But is it actually true? I'm skeptical.
Also they very much dance around the metrics they selected for "nice", it's a composite of questions that can leave out a whole spectrum of human behaviour. Would a child steal a sandwich to feed his hungry brother? For example, I bet situations like that are not covered. Also, the reach of such a study into dispersed, secular groups would be much trickier than getting a church mailing list.
The biggest of which, to my mind, is that it is simply self-reported. Of course people who regularly attend church in America will say they have a generous spirit, that's one of the things that is pure dogma in these circles. But is it actually true? I'm skeptical.
Also they very much dance around the metrics they selected for "nice", it's a composite of questions that can leave out a whole spectrum of human behaviour. Would a child steal a sandwich to feed his hungry brother? For example, I bet situations like that are not covered. Also, the reach of such a study into dispersed, secular groups would be much trickier than getting a church mailing list.
plagiarize
Banned
there are still monkeys because they are awesome, speaking in terms of adaptivity and suitability to their environment.MuseManMike said:
i believe Britney Spears gave birth to a not dog, but the jury is still out on that.
Eight Diagram Bat Fighter
Banned
ronito said:
Ronito always playing the victim.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
The generalizations in this thread are laughable on both sides.
And if you were involved in an atheist group, and then decided you believed in God, I doubt the group would be supportive of that decision. It has nothing to do with the nature of atheist (or theist), but that how people in groups act in general.
And if you were involved in an atheist group, and then decided you believed in God, I doubt the group would be supportive of that decision. It has nothing to do with the nature of atheist (or theist), but that how people in groups act in general.
It bleeds over in the parts that are verified. When they aren't verified, there's no logical reason to disbelieve something in place of another. There is nothing in regards to a creator that disconnects from evolution at all which is why belief transcends religion and we fit our religious beliefs to the notion.MuseManMike said:
Bleeding over is not the same thing as replecement & I'm merely going off what I can only assume to be a scientific mind is saying; that science can't prove something that can't be proven. If belief can't be proven nor can what's believed in be proven, then what the heck is the controversy? YEC? Ok, you got them, but so what? You've offically nabbed a pretty small portion of Christians that are actually interest in the sciences not to mention religious people in general. They are not affecting science in the slightest.
Even if I were a hardcore evolutionist, it still would not require me to give up believing that something higher than man, that is capable of creative acts, isn't out there somewhere. Just can't be proven. So why would I work too extra hard disproving it if that's not even scientific to begin with. It doesn't matter if someone else believes what I believe.
My second point is that "militant" atheists tend to suck at debating. It's not really a case of getting the leg up on a believer as much as it is having confidence in the statement made. This has nothing to do with asking/answering questions which I and others are happy to do. Assertive statements about my beliefs when ones have been corrected aren't even remotely the same arguing and impossible to swing as anything other than arrogant and rude.
Arrowgigantic
Member
JGS said:
"God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so." : 40% of all Americans. 120,000,000 people. Most of them Christian, I would say.
http://www.pollingreport.com/science.htm
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