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[demented waffle]

The lack of awareness from these people is very disturbing. Trying to shut down every argument against your ideas as isms or phobias while calling your opponents fascist.

Hitler and Stalin would be proud. Go useful idi....... I mean comrades.

 

[The Pleasure]

Light power

Reported for extreme Aussieness

 

[Sybb]

There's a bonus: if you picked Trump over Obama, it means you're racist!

4 years later and Democrats STILL don't get why they lost the election. Keep calling people racist again, and Trump will win this November.

Oh, and all the Reset mods are happy to support this as well.

If there are any Conservatives left on Resetera, I guess we now know there wont be any left by the end of the year.

To be fair, this is not just going on in America, but in many different countries. Two extreme sides who refuse to talk to each other.

"Libtards"
"Racists"

Calling people who don't agree with you names is not exactly moving democracy forward. Also, look at London's reaction to Brexit. Basically mass protests against a democratic outcome! Left wing liberals tend to see right wing conservatives as evil people. Right wing conservatives tend to see left wing liberals as stupid people. I think that's why conservatives get banned on liberal forums (you must not talk to evil people), while on conservative forums, liberals get called a lot of nasty words - but never banned. Because you mock stupid people.

I have seen this trend in too many different places to not believe it's true.

 

[DeepEnigma]

As a fully-functioning human adult you have to be able to accept that people will disagree with you on political matters. Take @Nobody_Important for example, I'm sure he and I disagree with each other vehemently on virtually any political topic; I won't hesitate to like and support an opinion he has on gaming side if I agree with it. I also don't hate the guy, it's just politics.

We can disagree with each other, even mock each other without hard feelings, let alone hatred. Then we can turn right around and all have fun when Gaming Side provides us with something interesting, entertaining. or stupid. That is the key difference between GAF and Ree.

I could not agree more. I feel the same way on here as well. We can disagree in politics, then in gaming it feels like a whole different “world” where all that is left in politics. And vise/versa. There are people that may not agree in gaming, but do in politics.

I see that with a lot of people on here and it creates a great dynamic in the community.

Thing I really enjoy, for the most part those opinions are left in each forum and almost never dragged across with pettiness or animosity.

 

[DeepEnigma]

@-COOLIO- , you should know better than to try to be a voice of reason over there, dude.

Mansplaining. Totally not a sexist term. Dumb cunts.

 

[JORMBO]

@-COOLIO- , you should know better than to try to be a voice of reason over there, dude.

This has been posted before in the past. This video describes the average Era poster.

 

[OmegaSupreme]

"Making love is more respectful" gtfo with that shit. No one who's had any says that. Try and tell a girl you want to make love vs fuck her brains out. See which one she likes best. Fucking incel cunts.

 

[ManaByte]

"Making love is more respectful" gtfo with that shit. No one who's had any says that. Try and tell a girl you want to make love vs fuck her brains out. See which one she likes best. Fucking incel cunts.

Don’t call them what they want to be called. Call them what they are. Basement virgins.

 

[OmegaSupreme]

On another note the next time one of their users says something like "kill all cops" can we just go ahead and report that website to the FBI for harboring domestic terrorists? I'm sure there's plenty of posts advocating trump's assassination as well.

 

[DragoonKain]

"Making love is more respectful" gtfo with that shit. No one who's had any says that. Try and tell a girl you want to make love vs fuck her brains out. See which one she likes best. Fucking incel cunts.

Banned(2 months) dismissing rape culture concerns and misogyny.

On another note the next time one of their users says something like "kill all cops" can we just go ahead and report that website to the FBI for harboring domestic terrorists? I'm sure there's plenty of posts advocating trump's assassination as well.

I'm guessing that site is very anti-cop? Could've figured. I made a topic on here a little while back about how law enforcement(despite still needing to progress in some areas) is the best in the history of our nation. If I would've made that thread there I'm guessing it would've been a ban.

 

[nush]

"Making love is more respectful" gtfo with that shit. No one who's had any says that. Try and tell a girl you want to make love vs fuck her brains out. See which one she likes best. Fucking incel cunts.

Puck Beaverton is in fact a massive bitter virgin. Really.

 

[Hotty Botty]

"Making love is more respectful" gtfo with that shit. No one who's had any says that. Try and tell a girl you want to make love vs fuck her brains out. See which one she likes best. Fucking incel cunts.

It really depends. You pretty much gotta provide the opposite of what they’ve been getting.

 

[nush]

End of the year REEEview of 2019 Part Four and Final.

 

[Captain Zyrain]

Stinkles is the Franchise Development Director for Halo. I'm not kidding.

His posts are/were probably the single biggest downer in all of REEera. I used to think he was great. He was a little all over when he was here, but when he got over there he went batshit orange man bad insane. I've met him a number of times actually and he was always super nice, so it was really disappointing to see how much hate he spews online.

 

[EviLore]

Trashfire of freethinkers is my favorite. What an insult.

 

[Musky_Cheese]

Trashfire of freethinkers is my favorite. What an insult.

Almost beats someone telling you "So what, you got a big dick" lol

I seen that in public once. She was trying to insult him but she kept complementing him

 

[Jezbollah]

if we're a "Trashfire of freethinkers" - I take it as a compliment. It makes me feel warm and happy at night.

 

[Avasarala]

Almost went tag happy at 'trashfire of freethinkers.'

 

[JordanN]

if we're a "Trashfire of freethinkers" - I take it as a compliment. It makes me feel warm and happy at night.

There's a motto hanging somewhere, but it describes GAF's intentions.

NeoGAF is a nexus of hardcore gamers, enthusiast press, and video game industry developers and publishers. This is a neutral ground where facts and evidence, presented within the confines of civil, inclusive discourse, prevail through careful moderation.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Happy 2020, a new decade where hopefully we can break the oppression of cancel culture!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/has-jk-rowling-figured-out-a-way-to-break-our-cancel-culture/2019/12/31/10798748-2bf3-11ea-bcb3-ac6482c4a92f_story.html

 

[Captain Zyrain]

Happy 2020, a new decade where hopefully we can break the oppression of cancel culture!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/has-jk-rowling-figured-out-a-way-to-break-our-cancel-culture/2019/12/31/10798748-2bf3-11ea-bcb3-ac6482c4a92f_story.html

I have no idea who wrote that, but it was fantastic. Here's hoping! The terrible tens! I like that description.

 

[600Breezy]

Seeking advice regarding escaping from Sydney (and possibly even Australia as a whole)

This thread is more of a condensation of things I've been talking about on Etcetera over 2019, and it's an attempt at building some concrete advice for my situation. I'm also happy for others who are looking to flee to chime in and give their perspectives as well. I want to leave this dry...

www.resetera.com

Can someone please take this retard off our hands please??

lmao has no qualifications and is autistic, so gets a (most likely) relatively healthy disability pension... but but but bus firessssss wahhhhhhhh

This is the reason why RetardEra and all their doom and gloom is a massive problem: you have now convinced someone with a lower than average IQ that he’s living in a hell hole.

hand on heart, I am so proud to be living in the best country on earth. And to see someone like this want to leave cause they think they’re above this place pisses me the fuck off.

tell you what Solar Puffin, ill buy you a one way ticket to Congo, Zimbabwe etc since Australia is beneath you. Let’s see if you last more than a single minute in a real hell hole.

 

[600Breezy]

Australia's PM Scott Morrison says there’s ‘no better place to raise kids’ .... as deadly wildfires burn [ Not Satire ]

Thisisfinemates.gif https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/australia-wildfires-scott-morrison-bushfire-new-south-wales-deaths-a9266276

www.resetera.com

Here we go again with the bush fires.

just so international gaf knows, 100% of people living in actual civilisation in Australia are not affected in any way by this constant nonsense you’re hearing.

who is affected? People who decided they wanted to live on what amounts to charcoal briquettes.

 

[tkscz]

Australia's PM Scott Morrison says there’s ‘no better place to raise kids’ .... as deadly wildfires burn [ Not Satire ]

Thisisfinemates.gif https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/australia-wildfires-scott-morrison-bushfire-new-south-wales-deaths-a9266276

www.resetera.com

Here we go again with the bush fires.

just so international gaf knows, 100% of people living in actual civilisation in Australia are not affected in any way by this constant nonsense you’re hearing.

who is affected? People who decided they wanted to live on what amounts to charcoal briquettes.

Don't the bushfires happen like every year because of how dry it is in the Australian desert?

 

[zapiks44]

"Trashfire of Freethinkers" should seriously be the site's new motto.

 

[600Breezy]

Don't the bushfires happen like every year because of how dry it is in the Australian desert?

the bush is completely dry and has been prone to fires since time immemorial.

regardless of the potential hazard, people still decide to live and build there, completely ignoring the dangers.

All I’m saying is if you build a house in the middle of the ocean and you get eaten by a great white, don’t expect me to care

 

[nush]

Seeking advice regarding escaping from Sydney (and possibly even Australia as a whole)

This thread is more of a condensation of things I've been talking about on Etcetera over 2019, and it's an attempt at building some concrete advice for my situation. I'm also happy for others who are looking to flee to chime in and give their perspectives as well. I want to leave this dry...

www.resetera.com

Can someone please take this retard off our hands please??

lmao has no qualifications and is autistic, so gets a (most likely) relatively healthy disability pension... but but but bus firessssss wahhhhhhhh

This is the reason why RetardEra and all their doom and gloom is a massive problem: you have now convinced someone with a lower than average IQ that he’s living in a hell hole.

hand on heart, I am so proud to be living in the best country on earth. And to see someone like this want to leave cause they think they’re above this place pisses me the fuck off.

tell you what Solar Puffin, ill buy you a one way ticket to Congo, Zimbabwe etc since Australia is beneath you. Let’s see if you last more than a single minute in a real hell hole.

That soft knob wont last five minutes in the UK after he gets over looking at the pretty trees and the rain, there's a reason a lot of us brits bail the fuck out as soon as we get the opportunity to go and live somewhere else. He cant stand the heat but he'll hate the winters in the UK for sure.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Happy 2020, a new decade where hopefully we can break the oppression of cancel culture!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/has-jk-rowling-figured-out-a-way-to-break-our-cancel-culture/2019/12/31/10798748-2bf3-11ea-bcb3-ac6482c4a92f_story.html

Thanks for the link. Great write up. Love her phrasing with, "the dictatorship of the proscriptariat."

 

[JORMBO]

On being an Ally for the new decade (Racial/LGBT+ Ally)

As we enter a new decade, I wanted to talk about Allies in relation to both racial and LGBT+ communities. In case one is unaware, an Ally is someone who supports a racial or LGBT+ group but is not a part of that community (i.e. someone who supports LGBT+/minority people but aren’t that LGBT+...

www.resetera.com

16 replies in over 3 hours. It shows you how many people really give a shit about these topics.

The most important thing he has learned on a discussion forum is to not discuss things. Good thing he does not post here with all us trashfire freethinkers.

 

[Trojita]

Don't the bushfires happen like every year because of how dry it is in the Australian desert?

Normally half a billion animals don't die from a bushfire.

Half a billion animals perish in Australian bushfires

 

[Deleted member 17706]

On being an Ally for the new decade (Racial/LGBT+ Ally)

As we enter a new decade, I wanted to talk about Allies in relation to both racial and LGBT+ communities. In case one is unaware, an Ally is someone who supports a racial or LGBT+ group but is not a part of that community (i.e. someone who supports LGBT+/minority people but aren’t that LGBT+...

www.resetera.com

16 replies in over 3 hours. It shows you how many people really give a shit about these topics.

The most important thing he has learned on a discussion forum is to not discuss things. Good thing he does not post here with all us trashfire freethinkers.

Ha. Wasn't that OP the same guy that was crying a few weeks ago about how people saw through his phony bullshit and pleading with the forum to see him as an ally?

 

[Musky_Cheese]

 

[DeepEnigma]

"Making love is more respectful" gtfo with that shit. No one who's had any says that. Try and tell a girl you want to make love vs fuck her brains out. See which one she likes best. Fucking incel cunts.

Telling a girl you want to “make love to her” is just lying to someone who’s brains you want to fuck right out. Just be open and honest while making her feel comfortable without any incel predator-like sleazy bullshit, and that lady in the streets will turn into a freak in the sheets.

Most women want to be fucked like a romance novel (you ever see the shit that’s written in there?), not having a heart to heart like an external masturbation session with themselves.

All the freaky deaky rough sex shit on porn sites is predominately searched by women. I assume from male feminist saturated strongholds.

Then again, that board is filled with low test having, hormonally imbalanced, processed food slurping, DNA depleted, sexless drive “asexuals”.

This post has been brought to you by, Dr. BallsDeep RuthEnigma.

 

[nush]

16 replies in over 3 hours. It shows you how many people really give a shit about these topics.

They only care if it's the platform of virtue signaling they can farm outrage from.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

On being an Ally for the new decade (Racial/LGBT+ Ally)

As we enter a new decade, I wanted to talk about Allies in relation to both racial and LGBT+ communities. In case one is unaware, an Ally is someone who supports a racial or LGBT+ group but is not a part of that community (i.e. someone who supports LGBT+/minority people but aren’t that LGBT+...

www.resetera.com

16 replies in over 3 hours. It shows you how many people really give a shit about these topics.

The most important thing he has learned on a discussion forum is to not discuss things. Good thing he does not post here with all us trashfire freethinkers.

I agree with Raccoon.

What's the point of chiming in, when the other side is going to yell, kick and scream like a baby.

Just sit back and be like Michael Jackson eating popcorn.

It's like being at work in a meeting and cringing as the arrogant presenter makes an ass out of himself as he talks junk, has terribly wrong numbers on screen, and has no idea what's going on when people ask him questions.

Good natured people have a urge to chime in and help the guy out so he doesn't embarrass himself and more.

But sometimes, it's better just to sit back and let the asshead keep sticking his head farther and farther up his rear end.

 

[NYR]

Holy shit. 11,000 bans. What a disgrace.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Holy shit. 11,000 bans. What a disgrace.

In terms of process, wouldn't you think warnings would be higher than bans?

lol

 

[Kev Kev]

Lmao, I just saw this a minute ago and couldn’t stop laughing

It’d be funny even if it wasn’t Era but bc it is makes it a hell of a lot more funny

 

[nush]

Telling a girl you want to “make love to her” is just lying to someone who’s brains you want to fuck right out. Just be open and honest while making her feel comfortable without any incel predator-like sleazy bullshit, and that lady in the streets will turn into a freak in the sheets.

Most women want to be fucked like a romance novel (you ever see the shit that’s written in there?), not having a heart to heart like an external masturbation session with themselves.

Agreed, and here's the thing, women like sex too. Except they often have to be more discrete because of the slut-shaming that's still prevalent. But they want to fuck MEN not boys, that does not mean you need to be a "beer, cars, big tits and football" man or be of a certain age. But it's OK to let a woman know you want to fuck her, obviously at the right time and place.

Here's an annecdote from my life to illustrate this. I had a casual thing going with this one girl who was a few years younger than me and not just cute but damn adorable. Just really sweet, softly spoken. I really would have liked an actual relationship with her but we were at different points in out lives it was unlikely to work out so we would just fuck. She'd come to my apartment around 2pm on a weekend get a good dicking and leave, and yes she was dirty enough. We even *Checks notes* had a threesome one time.

We had this regular arrangement for a long time, until one day she was unusually late. She'd texted me that she was held up but was on the way. 2 hours passed before I got a call from her for me to come down and let her in the building. When I get down, she's got this dude her age in tow and they are both holding massive frappachino coffee type drinks and she's mildly irritated by this guy but trying to stay pleasant about it.

I'd already got a read on this guy "The nice Guy/beta/soy/cuck/friendzoned" type and he's obviously taken her out that morning as "Friends" and got knocked back but knew what her plans were with me that afternoon so had tailed her in the hope of cockblocking me "He just want's you for sex, I really care about you" bullshit. I didn't want to say anything to him as she obviously considered him a friend and I didn't want to put her in a bad mood by escalating anything. So I ignored him, let her through the security door and as I was closing it this dude says to me "Make sure you treat her like a sister!" (Weird I know). She was out of earshot at this point waiting by the elevator so I looked this dude dead in the eye and said "I'm gonna treat her real good". I'll never forget that dudes absolutely destroyed face as I closed the door.

So don't be a nice guy, be direct and take the L if you get rejected. You'll get laid a lot more that way rather that "Making love".

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Lmao, I just saw this a minute ago and couldn’t stop laughing

It’d be funny even if it wasn’t Era but bc it is makes it a hell of a lot more funny

Social media never disappoints.

I'm just trying to figure out if Twitter is funnier or message boards.

 

[holygeesus]

Still not received my permanent ban on there. It seems the key to avoiding being banned, is to actually request one. Go figure.

 

[Handel]

Still not received my permanent ban on there. It seems the key to avoiding being banned, is to actually request one. Go figure.

Go say that Boyega just mad Finn got cucked by a pale white fascist and enjoy your quick permaban.

 

[Scopa]

Lmao, I just saw this a minute ago and couldn’t stop laughing

It’d be funny even if it wasn’t Era but bc it is makes it a hell of a lot more funny

Resetera: where they even misspell ‘New Years’.

 

[benjipwns]

Seeking advice regarding escaping from Sydney (and possibly even Australia as a whole)

This thread is more of a condensation of things I've been talking about on Etcetera over 2019, and it's an attempt at building some concrete advice for my situation. I'm also happy for others who are looking to flee to chime in and give their perspectives as well. I want to leave this dry...

www.resetera.com

Can someone please take this retard off our hands please??

lmao has no qualifications and is autistic, so gets a (most likely) relatively healthy disability pension... but but but bus firessssss wahhhhhhhh

This is the reason why RetardEra and all their doom and gloom is a massive problem: you have now convinced someone with a lower than average IQ that he’s living in a hell hole.

hand on heart, I am so proud to be living in the best country on earth. And to see someone like this want to leave cause they think they’re above this place pisses me the fuck off.

tell you what Solar Puffin, ill buy you a one way ticket to Congo, Zimbabwe etc since Australia is beneath you. Let’s see if you last more than a single minute in a real hell hole.

Solar Puffin is trapped in an apocalyptic cult:

To those who live in areas likely to get cooked by climate change, where might you consider moving too when the climate refugee crisis starts?

Australia just went though it hottest summer period, and data suggests it's only going to get worse. https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/environment/climate-change/australia-s-hottest-summer-beats-previous-record-by-large-margin-20190301-p5119e.html And lucky me, I'm a high functioning Autistic...

www.resetera.com

Anyone else developing Doomsday/Apocalyptic fears and anxiety from reading about climate change?

Seriously, this shit ain't good for my mental health. Feeling like society could fall apart at some unknown point past 2020 earliest puts a pretty big dent in my desire to establish a future for myself. At times it eclipses all other current anxieties, like my job situation. Damn you, Boaty...

www.resetera.com

I can't take hearing about Climate Change anymore

I believe that by 2100, humanity will go extinct. My friend, he disagrees. He believes that merely the vast majority of humanity will die. Edit: I've calmed down a bit now, I do apologize, I was having a bit of a anxiety attack and I needed somewhere, anywhere to talk and it's past midnight...

www.resetera.com

It's beginning to look a bit like we're all gonna fucking die

How the fuck am I meant to stay calm during this, huh? The horrid existential dread from this whole thing pins me down. I can't deal with it, frankly. Why the fuck am I working and earning money like it's gonna mean shit all in a decade or 2. I should be moving to the coldest place it's...

www.resetera.com

I believe that by 2100, humanity will go extinct.
My friend, he disagrees. He believes that merely the vast majority of humanity will die.
There's a thread on gaming side about how Video Games will be no more soon. You might think I'm a dork for caring so much about this one thing in particular, but I live solely to escape. I mean, maybe I can take some solace in that shit like DnD and books should still exist, given how low tech they are.
I don't currently have a job. Do you know how hard it is to give much of a shit when the apocalypse looms over us all? I'm an Autistic privileged middle class white boy with no marketable skills to speak of. How the fuck does the rest of the left just go on as if they could possibly live a full life with the upcoming shitstorm. Money will be worthless, your uni degree even less so.
I just wanna seclude myself in my room, protected, where I can escape into the world of fiction all I want, and nothing can hurt me.
Even in the apocalypse, bandits could totally break into my house and kill me when they take all my shit.
I've nothing but fiction and comfort. I don't want the world to take those away from me.
I'm so arrogant to think I won't simply starve. I have nothing to contribute to the wasteland tribes. Maybe It'll be a quick death if I'm lucky.
How much time do we have? It feels like it will be less than a decade. Do I even have a chance to reach at least middle age?

 

[600Breezy]

Solar Puffin is trapped in an apocalyptic cult:

To those who live in areas likely to get cooked by climate change, where might you consider moving too when the climate refugee crisis starts?

Australia just went though it hottest summer period, and data suggests it's only going to get worse. https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/environment/climate-change/australia-s-hottest-summer-beats-previous-record-by-large-margin-20190301-p5119e.html And lucky me, I'm a high functioning Autistic...

www.resetera.com

Anyone else developing Doomsday/Apocalyptic fears and anxiety from reading about climate change?

Seriously, this shit ain't good for my mental health. Feeling like society could fall apart at some unknown point past 2020 earliest puts a pretty big dent in my desire to establish a future for myself. At times it eclipses all other current anxieties, like my job situation. Damn you, Boaty...

www.resetera.com

I can't take hearing about Climate Change anymore

I believe that by 2100, humanity will go extinct. My friend, he disagrees. He believes that merely the vast majority of humanity will die. Edit: I've calmed down a bit now, I do apologize, I was having a bit of a anxiety attack and I needed somewhere, anywhere to talk and it's past midnight...

www.resetera.com

It's beginning to look a bit like we're all gonna fucking die

How the fuck am I meant to stay calm during this, huh? The horrid existential dread from this whole thing pins me down. I can't deal with it, frankly. Why the fuck am I working and earning money like it's gonna mean shit all in a decade or 2. I should be moving to the coldest place it's...

www.resetera.com

yep - and this is what the constant doom and gloom from etcetera does to people with a mental illness: brings them into a constant cycle of worsening depression.

Can’t wait to see where he ends up moving to - he’ll be back in his parents house in a week flat. Honestly sickens me when someone doesn’t know how good they got it.

 

[nush]

Solar Puffin is trapped in an apocalyptic cult:

It's beginning to look a bit like we're all gonna fucking die

How the fuck am I meant to stay calm during this, huh? The horrid existential dread from this whole thing pins me down. I can't deal with it, frankly. Why the fuck am I working and earning money like it's gonna mean shit all in a decade or 2. I should be moving to the coldest place it's...

www.resetera.com

Wasn't oil supposed to have run out by now? Or the rainforests to no longer to exist? Or hardly anyone old enough to read that post even be alive in 2100?

 

[rykomatsu]

So I ignored him, let her through the security door and as I was closing it this dude says to me "Make sure you treat her like a sister!" (Weird I know).

Step sister / brother porn is apparently a thing now.

 

[Kagey K]

Don't the bushfires happen like every year because of how dry it is in the Australian desert?

No climate change made it happen, even if the worst of the fires were in the 90s.

There’s a reason why it got renamed from Global Warming to Climate Change. So they can blame every naturally occurring disaster on it.

 

[nush]

No climate change made it happen, even if the worst of the fires were in the 90s.

There’s a reason why it got renamed from Global Warming to Climate Change. So they can blame every naturally occurring disaster on it.

They threw El Nino into the mix for a while as well.

 

[Mohonky]

Australia's PM Scott Morrison says there’s ‘no better place to raise kids’ .... as deadly wildfires burn [ Not Satire ]

Thisisfinemates.gif https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/australia-wildfires-scott-morrison-bushfire-new-south-wales-deaths-a9266276

www.resetera.com

Here we go again with the bush fires.

just so international gaf knows, 100% of people living in actual civilisation in Australia are not affected in any way by this constant nonsense you’re hearing.

who is affected? People who decided they wanted to live on what amounts to charcoal briquettes.

Maybe you havent noticed the cities covered in smoke, the low visibility, the huge amount of wild life lost.

You're downplaying what is a monumental catatrosphe right now. This is a big deal. Yes, we get fires every year, but this is an extraordinary event this year on a different level; the fact there are people and towns outside of the cities that are the most heavily effected as a deflection makes you look like an ass.

I also take issue with taking ScoMos comments and the reaction by Ree as pure wank; the fires are an exception as Australia really is one of the best countries in the world to live and Ree are just carrying in with the typical kneejerk reaction because 'it came from someone I dont like!' but you're comment isnt much better