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[Dreamwriter]

www.indiegogo.com/projects/retro-vgs
Goal: $1,950,000
Campaign Video

What is Retro VGS?
A brand new game console designed to play modern retro-style games from cartridges. The idea is to return to a simpler time, when you just plugged a cartridge into the system, turned it on, and started playing. No forced hour-long patch downloads, no operating system to navigate, and you truly own the game. No need to worry about the game ever being removed from a digital store, or worse the digital store being taken down. The cartridges are being designed to survive a long time, 20 years and longer. They are also great for collectors who want snazzy physical copies of new games.

That looks a lot like an Atari Jaguar...
There's a good reason for that: the Retro VGS guys bought the original tooling Atari used to create the Atari Jaguar case and cartridges (along with paperwork giving them the rights to the designs). Not only is that just plain cool, this saved them a ton of money getting their own tooling designed and manufactured. They only had to change small things (like removing the Atari logo from the cartridges) and having a new back panel made.

What's up with that controller?
The controllers are being made by InterWORKS Unlimited. It's basically a Super NES controller with handles and a pair of analogue sticks. Yes, this is the same controller that was made for Wii U and got bad reviews, but those bad reviews were for wireless problems, but on this system they are wired. The system has normal USB ports so you can use whatever controllers you want, or keyboards or whatever. And it also has a couple of the old Atari/Genesis controller ports, and the hardware will automatically work with any controllers that were ever designed for that format.

Is this like the Retron 5?
No, the Retro VGS is primarly for playing brand new 8-bit or 16-bit style games. It's more for playing modern titles like Shovel Knight than old ones like Donkey Kong. Having said that, they have announced a future set of cartridge adapters that would let you plug in and run old game cartridges from different game systems.

So how much is it?
Of course there are multiple pledge tiers, but the base prices are $299 for an Early Bird Special limited to 500 black units, with the regular base price being $349 for the campaign-exclusive colors. For that price you get the console, a controller, and a pack-in game.

What's in this thing that makes it so expensive?
The Retro VGS is build around a combination of an ARM CPU and an FPGA. The chips were chosen to be powerful enough to run modern games - while a game like Shovel Knight might look like an NES game running on a SNES, it's actually a full PC/modern console game that requires a significant amount of power. The Retro VGS team wants developers to be able to use their game engine of choice to make games for it, including big ones like Unity. Note, it's still supposed to be for retro-style games, so don't expect to see Call of Duty graphics on there.

So it has an FPGA...what does that mean?
The Retro VGS is designed around a unique setup - it's got an ARM CPU but also an FPGA. An FPGA is basically a reconfigurable hardware chip - you can configure it to be any type of hardware you want, as long as you have the correct core for it. For example, an NES core would turn the chip into a combination of the NES CPU (RP2A03), its PPU (RP2C02), and whatever other connections would be needed. This is more than simple emulation, it's actually sort-of turning the FPGA into the actual hardware chips (tech-heads, don't tear me down for my oversimplification!)

The idea is to get as many retro-style games to come to the console as possible. If an indie developer has written a new NES or Genesis game, their game can run on the Retro VGS with literally zero changes; the cartridge loads up the correct core into the FPGA and then loads their game onto it. They could even use an altered FPGA core - you want an NES that could display better colors than the original system could, so your game isn't quite so limited, that's an option. The FPGA can also act like a graphics/sound card, so a game can be written to run natively on the ARM CPU with the FPGA handling graphics and sound.

Why IndieGoGo and not Kickstarter?
Since the announcement of this campaign, IndieGoGo has been trying to convince Retro VGS to use them, presumably offering extra incentives. In addition, IndieGoGo charges less for a successful campaign, and doesn't have as many limitations as Kickstarter. Two specific Kickstarter rules were problematic: Kickstarter doesn't allow campaigns to use renderings of what the final product will look like, or to hold hardware campaigns that don't show off functional running prototype hardware. Kickstarter's head of games told Retro VGS that they could do their campaign there anyways, ignoring those limits, but Retro VGS knows some people would complain and make a big deal about it if they did so.

Does this mean if they don't reach their goal they still get the money?
No, Retro VGS is holding what's called a static fixed-funding campaign. This works exactly like Kickstarter - they must reach their goal or they get nothing.

How is IndieGoGo different than Kickstarter for pledgers?
There's two big differences: First, pledgers can choose to use PayPal. Second, when you make a pledge, you are charged up front for the amount, rather than at the end of the campaign. You can still raise your amount to move up to different pledge tiers, but to move down to a cheaper tier, or to cancel your pledge altogether, you have to fill out a customer service form, they say they'll process the refund in one business day. If the campaign fails to reach their goal, all pledgers get their money automatically refunded within 5 days.

ANNOUNCED LAUNCH TITLES

TINY KNIGHT - free pack-in with the system
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbFjBmVT_J4

SONGBRINGER
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRPpQYGJsZ4

READ ONLY MEMORIES
http://vimeo.com/121575119

SYNDEY HUNTER AND THE CAVERNS OF DEATH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewtfl24vCik

ADVENTURE IN THE TOWER OF FLIGHT
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNXD8QRCu6Y

SUPER 3D NOAH'S ARK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK7pzzmsCxQ

GUNLORD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdqXxf1O1pA

INFERNAX
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhrojXnR5jI

KNIGHT'S CHANCE
http://youtu.be/e0VxABaIWfI

Where is the campaign?
www.indiegogo.com/projects/retro-vgs

 

[glaringradio]

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1043605 the whole project is super sketchy

 

[RomanticHeroX]

How many times will people throw their money away on crowdfunded indie hardware? The recent push to play to retro nostalgia is new, at least.

 

[jesu]

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1043605 the whole project is super sketchy

I'm not interested in the console but I've enjoyed following that other thread!
Can't wait to see what happens if it does get backed.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

Their crowdfunding page is pretty well done. There's tons of information there to read through and it seems like this project has a ton of thought and care put behind it.

That being said, $300-$350 for a retro style console is simply too much for me. I was completely on board with this when it was going to cost less than $200 but I can't support it at the price they're asking for now.

 

[Hesh]

What, it's a new platform? I'm not really jazzed on that idea. If it was just a retro console to play old Nintendo and Sega cartridges on that was somehow cheaper than the other options on the market while performing better than emulation I would be interested. This just sounds like another Ouya, but it's severely hampering its potential market by focusing slower on retro-inspired indie titles. That it's an actual platform with specific hardware developers would need to design and/or port-to with in mind just makes things worse.More power to the guys to succeed, but I have a lot of doubts about this idea of theirs.

 

[Rich!]

Do not buy this.

Every single thing about it stinks of a scam. Kickstarter don't even want them.

 

[SegaShack]

Although it's too pricey for me, I do hope it does well.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

Do not buy this.

Every single thing about it stinks of a scam. Kickstarter don't even want them.

I think it may be a bit too ambitious but I don't think it's a scam in any way

 

[Leynos]

I really do hope that they succeed as I love cartridges, and older-style games, but $300 is too much money for me right now. Hell, I don't even have a Wii U yet, and I LOVE Nintendo. Sucks to be a poor boy.

Anyways, is there a campaign video on their Indiegogo page? All that I get is audio - maybe because I'm trying to watch it on my Android phone?

 

[RPGCrazied]

$300? Yeah, thats a tad to much for me, for a retro console. Good luck to them though.

 

[Dreamwriter]

Do not buy this.

Every single thing about it stinks of a scam. Kickstarter don't even want them.

Kickstarter actually did want them, and was willing to waive a couple of their rules for it. But the Retro VGS guys knew that certain people would make a big deal about them breaking the rules, and IndieGoGo was willing to make bigger concessions to get Retro VGS on their site.

 

[Rich!]

I think it may be a bit too ambitious but I don't think it's a scam in any way

It's more of a scam of hopes.

It's never going to work.

 

[funkystudent]

Its probably not a scam.


But using IndieGoGo automatically always makes me think something is a scam.

 

[SegaShack]

Do not buy this.

Every single thing about it stinks of a scam. Kickstarter don't even want them.

Really there is no reason to think of this as a scam. It's expensive and the FPGA drives up the cost, but to say its a scam is just reaching IMO.

Also KS has had plenty of people take the money and run.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

It's more of a scam of hopes.

It's never going to work.

I get what you're saying but "a scam of hopes".....does that even make sense? lol

It's certainly a very risky proposition but calling it a scam implies they're doing this project to take people's money and run. I don't believe that for a second. Even if this project crashes and burns, these guys seem very passionate about it.

Like I said already though, I can't support it. The system itself is too pricey in my opinion and the amount they're asking for in this campaign is too high, at least in my view.

 

[Dreamwriter]

Anyways, is there a campaign video on their Indiegogo page? All that I get is audio - maybe because I'm trying to watch it on my Android phone?

I just put a direct link to the campaign video in the OP, but here it is too.

 

[dreamcastmaster]

They were overcharged for the Jaguar tooling, the controllers they are showing are public tooling and not developed by themselves. I've worked on gaming accessories in China for over ten years. These guys are being ripped off but don't know it and are passing those costs to the end buyer. Stay away from this, it's just another Ouya.

 

[dancrane212]

"Fast Start Time" - Can I see how long it took the prototype to boot to compare my consoles to it?

"Durable Media" - Good to know, while still undecided on what the media in the carts will be, the carts will be tough. Cool that a 90's era plastic mold was designed so well that it can protect a potential HDD inside it from a fall off the shelf. My discs also have trouble lasting 25+ years because of how fragile they are so a potential cart based on 25 year lasting Flash would also be far superior.

"Low Price" - Nice job selecting the early bird price for the Retro VGS and keeping the original $499 Xbox One price. The $349 XB1 should not count because it lacks a 1TB hard drive and/or Kinect - both essential to games.

I like the idea of this platform in the way I love all bizarre/different game related projects but this chart makes some big assumptions on how the project will pan out without a prototype built or other decisions locked-in.

 

[Fasty]

This is kind of a cool idea, but who's going to actually develop for this thing? Doesn't seem cost effective at all to make games and put them on carts for such a niche audience.

 

[Mr-Joker]

It's amazing how the Atari Jaguar console gets to crash and burn twice.

Anyway, the console is too pricey for something that is limited as I already have a console that can play indie games and more.

This is just the Ouya all over again.

 

[Robert at Zeboyd Games]

You'd think that by now, people would know that Saturday is quite possibly the worst possible day to launch a crowdfunding campaign.

 

[Jockel]

Two hundred ninety nine US Dollars.
Would have been remotely interested at 99 or less.

 

[Tregard]

I need to see a few games I know get cartridges before I'd even consider it, stuff like Towerfall.

Neat idea though, hope it gets funded.

 

[Pop-O-Matic]

This is such a terrible idea for a platform that I'm surprised Nintendo didn't try it first, and it's such an obvious carny scam that I'm shocked that the project isn't being lead by Inafune and Igarashi. I'm expecting it to get funded despite that, though, because crowdfunders just seem to love these niche platforms.

 

[FistOfSyn]

Asking for 2m and a 300$ console?

Yeah, no thanks.

 

[ultrazilla]

Do not buy this.

Every single thing about it stinks of a scam. Kickstarter don't even want them.

That's really unfair and borders on libel. As already mentioned, Kickstarter actually said they could have the campaign on their website but Mike and crew wanted to be transparent regarding working/non working prototypes.

And Mike has done two highly successful Kickstarter campaigns for Retro Magazine. Nothing about him or his team is a "scam".

It's ok to raise concerns and ask questions but implying the RetroVGS campaign is a "scam" is not.

 

[Dreamwriter]

They were overcharged for the Jaguar tooling, the controllers they are showing are public tooling and not developed by themselves. I've worked on gaming accessories in China for over ten years. These guys are being ripped off but don't know it and are passing those costs to the end buyer. Stay away from this, it's just another Ouya.

Huh? What are you talking about? The controllers aren't being made by them but supplied by a third party, their tooling has nothing to do with the controllers but the console and cartridge cases. And how could you say they were overcharged for the tooling when they haven't announced what they paid? They *have* said that it was less than $6000, and the tooling already paid for itself when they sold transparent Jaguar cases to people on the Atari forums, so they aren't even "passing the costs to the end buyer".

 

[Fudgepuppy]

"Fast Start Time" - Can I see how long it took the prototype to boot to compare my consoles to it?

"Durable Media" - Good to know, while still undecided on what the media in the carts will be, the carts will be tough. Cool that a 90's era plastic mold was designed so well that it can protect a potential HDD inside it from a fall off the shelf. My discs also have trouble lasting 25+ years because of how fragile they are so a potential cart based on 25 year lasting Flash would also be far superior.

"Low Price" - Nice job selecting the early bird price for the Retro VGS and keeping the original $499 Xbox One price. The $349 XB1 should not count because it lacks a 1TB hard drive and/or Kinect - both essential to games.

I like the idea of this platform in the way I love all bizarre/different game related projects but this chart makes some big assumptions on how the project will pan out without a prototype built or other decisions locked-in.

I've never seen anyone use the lack of patching as a selling-point.

 

[JordanN]

What's in this thing that makes it so expensive?
The Retro VGS is build around a combination of an ARM CPU and an FPGA. The chips were chosen to be powerful enough to run modern games - while a game like Shovel Knight might look like an NES game running on a SNES, it's actually a full PC/modern console game that requires a significant amount of power. The Retro VGS team wants developers to be able to use their game engine of choice to make games for it, including big ones like Unity. Note, it's still supposed to be for retro-style games, so don't expect to see Call of Duty graphics on there.

Meh, that takes the fun away from me now. I would have loved to see modern developers "code to the metal" 8-bit style and have those limitations forced on.

Actually, I would have love if they came out with tiered systems that represented each retro gaming era.

 

[Orakio Rob]

Man, the video is pretty rough... it's too long, confusing and amateurish for a project this ambitious.

I like the idea, but it's too expensive for me. I'm rooting for them, but honestly, I don't think they'll make it.

 

[Bar81]

Nice try to create a new thread but it's not going to make this project any less of a monster flop.

The problems have been pointed out (thumbs up to first reply to this thread for not letting the OP who has been an unrelenting cheerleader just wipe the problems under the rug). It's basically a pipedream - no actual hardware, no killer app and a lot of "trust us" just give us $2 million and it'll all work out. This thing should have been $200 like it was up until they doubled the price a few months ago and tried to make it a jack of a lot of trades (again, the whole trust us with nothing to actually support any of their claims) and a master of none.

Pure amateur hour.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

Nice try to create a new thread but it's not going to make this project any less of a monster flop.

The problems have been pointed out (thumbs up to first reply to this thread for not letting the OP who has been an unrelenting cheerleader just wipe the problems under the rug). It's basically a pipedream - no actual hardware, no killer app and a lot of "trust us" just give us $2 million and it'll all work out. This thing should have been $200 like it was up until they doubled the price a few months ago and tried to make it a jack of a lot of trades (again, the whole trust us with nothing to actually support any of their claims) and a master of none.

Pure amateur hour.

There's absolutely no reason to come across as an asshole simply because a poster on this forum is excited about something you're not. Good lord.

Note, I'm not calling you an asshole, but your tone is really gross.

 

[Bar81]

There's absolutely no reason to come across as an asshole simply because a poster on this forum is excited about something you're not. Good lord.

The truth hurts doesn't it.

 

[Kyari]

I was vaguely excited at the prospect of this when it was first announced, but as the price and featureset have spiraled up and up I'm bowing out.

Can't justify $299 for something so niche, especially when PS4/Xbox One are often priced so closely at $349.

Also its worth noting that they're basically on Indie GoGo because they break a bunch of Kickstarter rules and wouldn't be allowed on there.
They have no working prototype and every single image they show is pre-rendered.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

The truth hurts doesn't it.

It certainly doesn't hurt me, as I have no intention of backing this project. Maybe show others who are interested in different things a little respect though. This thread isn't hurting anyone.

 

[Phat Michael]

Unit looks nice but I prefer my retron using a snes controller for all my carts.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Please note that they specifically avoided using Kickstarter because they were worried about Kickstarter's requirement that hardware projects show actual prototypes instead of renders.

 

[Htown]

have any of these crowdfunded console projects turned out well?

 

[Green Yoshi]

Please note that they specifically avoided using Kickstarter because they were worried about Kickstarter's requirement that hardware projects show actual prototypes instead of renders.

Why couldn't they show a prototype? I remember videos of a machine that was used for Jaguar shells.

have any of these crowdfunded console projects turned out well?

Ouya was quite OK. Oculus Rift wasn't so bad either.

 

[ultrazilla]

Why couldn't they show a prototype? I remember videos of a machine that was used for Jaguar shells.

They do not have a working prototype of the console yet. Kickstarter was going to allow them to have the campaign anyways but Mike and crew want to be transparent about it.

And enough with the crap talk about the system and hoping it fails. Getting tired of the trolling in here already.

 

[Adam Prime]

These people are absolutely insane. It doesn't matter though, it'll never reach its goal. My mind would be blown if it gets half way there.

 

[Marty Chinn]

No patches? How the heck is that going to work? I'm pretty many of the ports they are getting got a patch. Software never ships bug free, so how is this rigorous testing going to work? Is the Retro team handling testing? Testing can be costly. How long after games get released on other platforms will they be released on the Retro because they lack the ability to patch and need to be tested more? This was just one of the many red flags while taking a glance at their proposal.

 

[jay]

What a strange comparison chart. Very few of the features or lack of features they're touting as benefits are clear cut benefits.

 

[outunderthestars]

It's more of a scam of hopes.

It's never going to work.

Do you understand what the word "scam" actually means?


That said, really not interested in paying $40 -$60 for physical versions of $10 games.

 

[ElectricThunder]

I tried to post constructively in the old thread, as somebody that actually keeps far better tabs than most on the world of niche hardware/gaming tech doings at the fringes, albeit nothing I posted ever got concretely addressed by the people directly involved on here, but up until the past few days on it at least had something of an aura of optimism.

Then I saw the eventful IGG launch, read through the entire long-scroll pitch, and capped it off with watching the meandering pitch vid.

Jesus Christ, NO, not like this! What the hell?

-That terrible loaded comparison chart. Ouya stuff..really...that's a fight you court?
-The overall haughty attitude. "Retro" is not a genre, what in the world...this makes the jRPG/wRPG taxonomy nonsense look positively subdued and nuanced in good arguements.
-The lack of absolutely key tech spec clarification.
-Ridiculously vague stretch goals considering the above.
-The most tellingly glorious typo:

Most saying they never thought a chance to have their games on cartridges would never happen.

-The anemic "launch" lineup
-Absolutely no sizzle whatsoever on their pitch vid even if it did have heart at times(or at least attempt to tug at nostalgic heartstrings on the sly), or even so much a damned PowerPoint slide equivalent explaining their Trump Card that is the mysterious/some kind of Altera FPGA
-"Negotiations" on those other games huh...right. Ditto for clarity, any at all to an appreciable level, on what the approach will actually be for the other systems reckoned in FPGA save for a quote by some Intellivision chaps? Nothing even generational between 8 and 16 bit!

Some of it looks OK on the surface, but even a cursory look beyond the periphery leaves you with more questionable queries than hopeful answers by far---even aside from launching on a Saturday, did they never contact any proper gaming, or otherwise, outfits that have launched before? Even the outfit that steered Shenmue III's KS would've known enough to caution against some of this stuff...

Their own freaking official Twitter account hasn't even announced the campaign yet!

I could go on, but at this point, I'm pretty sure nothing good would come of it---they've seemingly made their bed on this in a worse way than I'd ever have imagined.

Who knew I'd be somewhat prescient while mistaken on this and it would have equal or worse odds of the situation to The Natami Project? Next gen (F)uzebox this ain't---not by a damn sight.

Holy hell this is just depressing for what could've been.

 

[Tempy]

I think one of the reasons this is so expensive is because they plan to do all of this in the USA instead of China.

Which is a pretty useless gesture if you're not American,

 

[outunderthestars]

I would be happy to pledge $20 or so and get a digital Retro sub.

 

[Leynos]

No patches? How the heck is that going to work? I'm pretty many of the ports they are getting got a patch. Software never ships bug free, so how is this rigorous testing going to work? Is the Retro team handling testing? Testing can be costly. How long after games get released on other platforms will they be released on the Retro because they lack the ability to patch and need to be tested more? This was just one of the many red flags while taking a glance at their proposal.

Yeah, this is a concern of mine. I doubt that the game developers/publishers are going to take the extra expense of running a full QA session on their games just because it will be released on the Retro VGS. They will put their games out, and when any issues come up as they invariably do nowadays, the poor sods with Retro VGS copies will just have to live with the bugs, while people on other platforms will get patched.

I really like the concept of no more patching, but those days are, sadly, gone. Games are too big, too complex, too expensive, and the public gets used as product testers now.

 

[outunderthestars]

Yeah, this is a concern of mine. I doubt that the game developers/publishers are going to take the extra expense of running a full QA session on their games just because it will be released on the Retro VGS. They will put their games out, and when any issues come up as they invariably do nowadays, the poor sods with Retro VGS copies will just have to live with the bugs, while people on other platforms will get patched.

I really like the concept of no more patching, but those days are, sadly, gone. Games are too big, too complex, too expensive, and the public gets used as product testers now.

I can't see many games launching day and date with their Console/pc ports. This seems like the kind of thing you do a few months later as a novelty.