Oh, I agree. But I just can't believe that game devs/pubs will spend any of that time, or money on extra QA just because it will be on the Retro VGS. One would have to hope that any issues will have been found, likely by the the public on other platforms, and addressed before the carts are made.
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Retro VGS, cartridge-based retro game console now on IndieGoGo
- Thread starter Dreamwriter
- Start date
Oh, I agree. But I just can't believe that game devs/pubs will spend any of that time, or money on extra QA just because it will be on the Retro VGS. One would have to hope that any issues will have been found, likely by the the public on other platforms, and addressed before the carts are made.
Dreamwriter
Member
That's one of the reasons I want this to succeed - people have gotten to thinking it's normal that games ship in very crappy buggy states that need patching, and think it's nigh impossible to ship bug-free games. You know what happened before patching became possible? Developers tested their games and fixed bugs *before* release rather than rushing it out before the game is done. Sure, sometimes they shipped with minor bugs but it was extremely rare that a bad bug shipped in a game, to the point that games became well known for that when it happened.
As for it being expensive to test games, that's a normal part of development costs, but even so it's not expensive, especially for simple retro-style games. Testers are the lowest paid members of the game industry so it's cheap if you want to hire a couple people to test the game for a couple weeks. Or you can just give the game to all your friends and family to try out, or hire an external testing company, they aren't that expensive either.
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
The carts use some sort of Flash ROM if I'm not mistaken; technically speaking most retro-style indie games aren't massive in size nor are their updates. They could just use a rewrite on the flash ROM to update the game if need be.
Then again, seeing as how the devs are saying there's "no patching", they'll either need to pull back on that particular promise, release an add-on for patching, let users install a patch through their computers (would still require a specific device), or just offer some free or super-cheap warranty service where you can have updated carts shipped to you.
Marty Chinn
Member
This really begs the question then. Why would anyone pay for a $300+ console, to pay $30 to $60 for the same game that cost $10 to $20 elsewhere, and get those games way later than everyone else? People want to do this for an unsubstantiated claim of faster boot times and the gambling that their game hopefully doesn't ever needs to be patched? I'm not figuring out who wants this.
Man, it hurts that this cost so much. I think it's a neat idea, but something that really needed a budget price to capture people. At $100 for a system, I think this thing could have been a niche success. I haven't seen anything that makes me think this is worth that level of premium in this day and age. Mike did discuss price a bit in the old thread, and made it sound less ridiculous, but still. It's ridiculous. I'll still back it, but I seriously doubt it hits the goal.
Also ridiculous that it's costing me another 40 to get it shipping in the continental US.
Also ridiculous that it's costing me another 40 to get it shipping in the continental US.
I'm not happy about the price, but I'd be happier if we see more games able to make the jump from digital to physical. I'm fine with getting the physical version later, and letting the digital buyers test it out first.
outunderthestars
Banned
Marty Chinn
Member
Do you have any grasp of game development or even software development? A ton of testing is done, but games are much more complex and nuanced these days. The bigger the complexity, the higher probability there will be bugs. You act as if rigorous testing isn't done now. Getting rid of patches simply means you're preventing from games being fixed in the event that there is a need to be patched.
Going back to the price, who is paying for it? Indie devs have limited funding and resources. These games are more indie than full production from a major publisher. Who is verifying testing took place and meets a standard? That has to mean Retro is doing testing too. How much are they checking and testing games before getting approval. Has retro budgeted for this? A couple of people might not catch all the bugs, especially if you're just giving it to friends and family like you suggest. Friends and family aren't experienced testers nor know how to do a proper test procedure. At least professional game testers are doing things according to a test plan.
You really don't sounds like you have a clue what goes on in game development.
You have almost exactly described my confusion with people buying records.
At least you can understand they make the claim they sound better. =) Games won't play different/better on here. They'll be the same game.
Ninja Scooter
Member
So like, hypothetically speaking, if someone had bought Shovel Knight on this they'd be shit outta luck on the new free DLC?
The Main Event
Member
$150 would've been the sweet spot. $199 would've been ok. $299? Yeah, that thing ain't going to take off, unfortunately.
Marty Chinn
Member
Nah, according to some, it'll be stuck so long in testing, that by the time it comes out, they can include the DLC with it.
Dreamwriter
Member
I think I have an idea about what game development entails
I've been a commercial game progammer since the Gameboy Color days, literally millions of people have played the games I've worked on, and I've also released an indie game by myself, been a part of multiple indie teams, some projects that shipped, some that didn't. I've worked for companies that worked on complicated AAA 3D console games, we tested those, they never needed patches (that was still in the days before patching became common).Modern games are either not being tested thoroughly, or are being released too early and ignoring the known bugs. But we're also not talking about games of that complexity anyways - we're talking about retro-style games, games as complex as what you would experience on old 8-bit and 16-bit consoles and arcade machines. And those games were released without need of patches back then, and we didn't have teams of 30 testers or anything crazy like that.
I think I have an idea about what game development entails
Modern games are either not being tested thoroughly, or are being released too early and ignoring the known bugs. But we're also not talking about games of that complexity anyways - we're talking about retro-style games, games as complex as what you would experience on old 8-bit and 16-bit consoles and arcade machines. And those games were released without need of patches back then, and we didn't have teams of 30 testers or anything crazy like that.
Are you planning on releasing any games for this system? Would be nice to hear if you have seen some of their dev documents and plans.
Lock-on technology baby
Mavromatis
Member
Dreamwriter
Member
No - for a while I was playing around with the idea of making an NES game in my spare time, and you wouldn't need any dev documents or plans to port that to the system, so I could have theoretically released that if I finished it. But though I got a decent start on it, my plans changed.
Marty Chinn
Member
I think I have an idea about what game development entails
Modern games are either not being tested thoroughly, or are being released too early and ignoring the known bugs. But we're also not talking about games of that complexity anyways - we're talking about retro-style games, games as complex as what you would experience on old 8-bit and 16-bit consoles and arcade machines. And those games were released without need of patches back then, and we didn't have teams of 30 testers or anything crazy like that.
Retro style games doesn't necessarily mean purely retro game play. You can still do complicated systems and game play mechanics within a retro style game. The bigger the complexity, the higher chance of bugs. You being in game development should know nothing ships bug free and sometimes things go undiscovered. Microsoft had the right idea of limiting the number of patches and the patch size if you want to reduce patching, but removing it all together is a bad idea. I won't deny that often there is a push by the publisher to get the game out, but I think it's false to say that rigorous testing doesn't go into games today, based on my own experience as a game developer and software engineer. However, going in the opposite direction of making it inflexible to fix things afterward when there is a problem is the wrong way to go about it. Games throughout history have shipped with bugs. Retro cartridge games didn't prevent bugs from happening. They just couldn't be fixed. Also, arcade games got patched all the time. Looking through ROM sets you can find multiple revisions of an arcade game. Hell Street Fighter 2 handcuff glitch anyone?
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
No patches also means no updates; there are plenty of indie devs who release free updates to their games after launch.
panda-zebra
Member
Dreamwriter
Member
Yes, and I've worked on complex cartridge-based games in the past - jRPGs. And we didn't need patches. You just need to test you game more, something modern game publishers don't seem to believe in anymore, instead they seem to believe in rushing the game out, letting customers do the testing, and then fixing them later.
I really hate how modern gamers and developers have become dependent on patches, where it's gotten to a point that a situation like Arkham Knight PC can happen, a game with such bad bugs that they pull the game from stores until they can release the patches.
Retro VGS will be better than we had it in the past, because a developer can have manufactured just a small batch of cartridges, like 25 of them, so if a bad bug *does* slip through it doesn't affect 250,000 pre-manufactured cartridges.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
Two of my favorite SNES JRPGs - Final Fantasy 3/6 and Lufia 2 - would have benefited greatly from patches.
Hahaha.
Aside from its price, which screams failure, the part about not being able to update games is worrying. In case a game-breaking bug is discovered, new cartridges will need to be manufactured. What a sensible plan.
Note that I'm not wishing for this project to fail, I just can't see how it could possibly succeed.
Ninja Scooter
Member
I don't see how completely removing the option of patches to fix bugs (and, in some cases, also add free content for your consumers) is going to magically fix the problem off buggy games. That seems like wishful thinking. Especially when you are not the market leader and companies will likely treat putting their games on RVGS as more of an afterthought.
kunonabi
Member
How does the Wii u have "enough" controller options while the PS4 has plenty?
stan423321
Member
Well, PS4 has red controller, blue controller, black controller, white controller, camo controller, gold controller, silver controller, transparent controller... that's plenty isn't it
DS4, fight sticks, racing wheels, PS Move & PS Camera?
D
Deleted member 10571
Unconfirmed Member
300 Bucks. Good luck with that, lol.
Herbspiceguy
Member
For that price I'd expect it to have at least modern storage and network capabilities. At least that's what I want my ideal modern 'retro' console to have.
godofcookery
Member
I have not been following this at all, does that goal seem unattainable given the level of interest going in? On the surface, it does to me.
Marty Chinn
Member
Again, games weren't bug free when they were on cartridges and the early days of discs. They just couldn't be fixed. You're ignoring this aspect of it. There are plenty of examples of bugs back in the day. Guile's handcuffs in Street Fighter 2 is a perfect example of that. Sometimes things go undetected. Without patching, you can't fix that. It's the wrong way to go.
Do you think all these indie developers have released games bug free? How many of the games already announced that are released already have already been patched at least once? Indie devs tend to have less resources and money to pay for testing. These are the type of people that will be developing for this system. Going cartridge isn't going to suddenly make things bug free. What happens to those who already got a cartridge with a bug? A recall happens now? Just because batches can be smaller doesn't mean people don't get affected by this and have to jump through hoops because now patching isn't on the table. How are the guys at Retro going to do quality control? There are a lot of things here that make this problematic. Saying simply, don't release it with bugs is trivializing a non trivial problem. You as a programmer and game developer should be even more understanding of it. My experience as a gamer and a game developer tells me that preventing patching is a bad idea and nothing in the campaign explains how they're going to guarantee games don't need to be patched. Doing so takes money and I don't see any plan or process mentioned to attack that.
Dreamwriter
Member
I never said they were bug free - no game ever released has ever been bug free, no matter how patched it is. I was talking about major, game breaking bugs, the only bugs people care about. Yes, they happen, but like I said, it's rare, and games with major bugs end up well known for them (thus, the handcuff glitch). Games aren't any more solid/bug free today then they were back before patches were common, but the experience is far worse, because you'll go to play a game, and it'll stop you from playing it for 20 minutes, a half hour as it downloads a patch. Or worse, your console itself will need a patch (remember the Wii U, day zero patch could take 8 hours?)
And I already brought up the money issue, game testing is a part of game development, indie or no, just like programming is, just like creating art is. If an indie developer can't give their game to friends and family to test, can't afford to have a tester or two on the team, can't afford to hire a testing service, then they aren't dedicated enough. It's not like friends and family are expensive
And even testing services aren't expensive.Ninja Scooter
Member
That doesn't seem like a good reason to rule out patches completely though. There are a lot of good reasons to allow patches, not only to fix missed bugs, but also to allow users to have more content. It's like saying "People cheat too much in Multiplayer, so lets get rid of online multiplayer completely".. Again, how would RVGS owners feel about getting shafted out of the additional, free, content Yatch Club Games put out for Shovel Knight? Would they feel okay that they are getting less content than digital owners while paying more for their physical versions of the game? There is a certain point where you are just being a slave to the past for nostalgia's sake.
Dreamwriter
Member
What happens in 5 years when that digital content is no longer available? When the server goes down? Especially a patch, imagine buying a game cartridge and (since patching was allowed) it has a horrible game breaking bug on it. But the patch server no longer exists, because the company went out of business, was bought, whatever. A common theme of the Retro VGS is longevity - you have a cartridge, you know you can play it. Right now I have a couple dozen Steam games, while right now Valve is a very solid company, who knows what could happen in 10 years? It's happened before, game hosts going out of business and gamers losing their games.
Also, allowing patches means you HAVE to use some sort of rewritable storage. Flash carts or whatever. But Retro VGS is going to use more permanent mask roms for games that aren't too large, just like the old cartridges, because those last extremely long without degredation.
Devilgunman
Member
How about putting "Game Library" into that list lol
You can/will get a PS4 for $299 (from Japan). I love retro games but I don't understand why this should exist. Why would anybody want to make an exclusive game for this system? And without exclusive game, why would anyone want to buy it?
Ninja Scooter
Member
You would still have a cart. You can play the content on the cart just like you can with any cart based system. Why would this be an issue?
This just seems like it's aimed at, like a niche subset of an already small hardcore audience who aren't already having their "retro" game needs filled via Steam/consoles. Good luck to them I just have a hard time believing there will be enough interest to meet their goals.
For games like Shovel Knight, I would want for them to hold off on production of carts until the game is complete. Or you risk going the route of Street Fighter 2, Turbo Edition, Championship Edition, etc. I am a patient man, and I have plenty of other games to play - give it to me complete.
But this is all academic as I really doubt that the Retro VGS will actually get funded.
But this is all academic as I really doubt that the Retro VGS will actually get funded.
Then you can't download the update and that sucks. For those five years, though, people get to play the game in a "perfect" state. After that, it's just very good (providing the developers did their job right originally).
Developers having the option of sending patches doesn't mean they'll immediately lose all sense of accountability and port garbage. This system will not attract developers who are working on super strict schedules (like the people working on modern AAA games are).
And in fact they largely have, thanks to modern rom hacking
Cynn
Member
You have some fantasticly bright, rose colored nostalga goggles. Games have always shipped buggy. Only recently could they be fixed and that's a great thing. In the past you had situations like where Sega had to re-issue first party Saturn games with new versions a year later due to hideous ports or more typically, you just wait for a sequel and hope they fixed the first game's issues.
I'm a Retro supporter but I hate it having no ability to patch software. Mistakes will happen. With this system, those mistakes are permanent.
breadtruck
Member
I want to support this, but its not gonna take off at that price.
Only two of those games shown got me even remotely interested, those being Songbird and Infernax.
Ok, ok, Super Noah 3d did also, but that's been around forever.
Only two of those games shown got me even remotely interested, those being Songbird and Infernax.
Ok, ok, Super Noah 3d did also, but that's been around forever.
Devilgunman
Member
This is why I play most of my retro games on Flash cart. Original hardware but superior games. Hacked rom ftw.
clem84
Gold Member
The IGG page makes it very tempting but there are too many unknowns. The price is a little much. 200-250 would've been the sweet spot. I'm on the fence honestly. I want this to succeed but I'm very skeptical. If the crowd-funding takes off and it looks like it's going to happen then maybe I'll pledge. There's still 45 days to go.
Marty Chinn
Member
Wait a second, are you telling me Dreamwriter released a game and then released patches after release? He/she has the audacity to denounce patching and praise better testing when he/she himself/herself doesn't live up to that standard? That's an amazing revelation. I was about to reply, but I think this about sums up everything. Hypocrite.
zenosparadox
Member
This is pure hyperbole. Absolutely ridiculous to claim that games as a whole suffered from the same level of game-breaking or performance bugs that we expect to see in AAA games these days. This is a bad opinion, and it's funny to me that you accuse the other poster of having nostalgia goggles that impairs one's judgment.