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Retronauts Podcast Thread
- Thread starter krae_man
- Start date
firehawk12
Subete no aware
No mention of Derrick Smart and Battlecruiser 3k? That is one of the greatest hype meltdowns in recorded history.
turnbuckle
Member
Should be able to talk about it as normal. This thread isn't so busy that we need to make rules to limit discussion and maybe talking about backer episodes will entice a few more people to back the podcast as well
. Besides, any time there's early access to something gaming related (say, early access for map packs via a season pass) it's generally fair game to discuss. Great first episode and I really liked the short episode Jeremy did. Would have loved for it to be longer but wishing for that could get us too close to pocket episodes.
I stopped listening during the call-in episode period. Are there any good episodes worth going back to during that era I may have missed? I don't ever ever ever want to go back unless it was a call-in episode exclusive to former guests / hosts / ex-1up and EGMers.
The Dyack thread works fine for me. There's even a death wish directed towards him on the first page.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=12448336
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=12448336
PC was kinda ignored (well, I guess Duke, but that's like the eclipse of blunderments.)
Funny to think on Prey being delayed for so long then coming out, and Duke still had another half-decade+ to go.
turnbuckle
Member
Is there a certain cutoff for when certain pledge milestones will be be certain to happen?
They're almost to the next milestone! But if it goes just over the milestone then fluctuates back and forth (or pledges taper back to even less than the 1 live event milestone) what happens?
I'm stuck in Southwest Michigan so it's not likely there will be a live event close enough for me to attend, but it'd be cool to get that second live event anyways. Sooooo close. Hope they make it.
Also - The youtube link on their site doesn't direct you to an active youtube channel
I think this is the correct youtube channel link
They're almost to the next milestone! But if it goes just over the milestone then fluctuates back and forth (or pledges taper back to even less than the 1 live event milestone) what happens?
I'm stuck in Southwest Michigan so it's not likely there will be a live event close enough for me to attend, but it'd be cool to get that second live event anyways. Sooooo close. Hope they make it.
Also - The youtube link on their site doesn't direct you to an active youtube channel
I think this is the correct youtube channel link
It was quite awful listening to them talk about internet abuse from 2008 like back then it was just a bit of fun directed towards men who deserved it. Gamers delivering hateful abuse and death threats to people they don't like is not some new development, and it isn't OK just because the target is someone you think is acting like a jerk.
For an example from this year, Adam Orth's comments about always online were stupid and rude. But he didn't deserve to be forced from his home and from his job by an avalanche of death threats.
http://www.destructoid.com/adam-orth-of-dealwithit-infamy-speaks-about-the-fallout-265136.phtml
For an example from this year, Adam Orth's comments about always online were stupid and rude. But he didn't deserve to be forced from his home and from his job by an avalanche of death threats.
http://www.destructoid.com/adam-orth-of-dealwithit-infamy-speaks-about-the-fallout-265136.phtml
Fenster Mayhew
Member
Yeah, uh, I don't think any of us are in favor of death threats.
the sonic episode is incredible
nckillthegrimace
Member
That and the Jordon, Jessie, Go episode are the only two episodes I've never listened to because I am deeply affected by embarrassment by proxy.
ToastyFrog
Inexplicable Treasure Hate
I considered mentioning it, but we had a full docket. As the man said above, this topic is a rich seam of discussion that can be mined again and again.
One thing that always bugs me when people dismiss Daikatana and Ion Storm is that they always manage to conveniently forget that Deus Ex and Anachronox wouldn't have happened without John Romero. He landed that deal. He gave Tom Hall and Warren Spector the opportunity to create their dream game. I know that doesn't fit the narrative of excess and hubris, but it's an undeniable fact.
Also, Bob, you're thinking of Mike Wilson, not Tom Hall. The latter's a sweety pie and would never run an ad like that. Wilson's awesome, too (see: Digital Devolver) but you have to remember he was only 25 and was in the unenviable position of trying to promote a company that had no games even close to release.
The GOD Game game guys were completely separate from Ion Storm. Scott Miller (3DR), and Wilson and Harry Miller after they left Ion in 1998. The games they published were big hits on the PC. Mafia, Hidden and Dangerous 2, Rune, Railroad Tycoon, Stronghold, Vietcong, Serious Sam and Max Payne. They didn't shut down because someone died in a motorcycle accident (?). One of the founders, Doug Myers, died of an asthma attack in 2001. Wilson and co sold the company shortly after.
Lastly, 3DR wasn't paid by Take Two to develop DNF. They funded it out of the millions they made on Prey, Duke 3D and Max Payne. Only in 2009, after Take 2 cancelled Duke Begins, did they try to come to some kind of arrangement for additional funding. There was however internal strife. Nearly half of the development team left the project in 2006 after a coup of sorts took place.
Also, Bob, you're thinking of Mike Wilson, not Tom Hall. The latter's a sweety pie and would never run an ad like that. Wilson's awesome, too (see: Digital Devolver) but you have to remember he was only 25 and was in the unenviable position of trying to promote a company that had no games even close to release.
The GOD Game game guys were completely separate from Ion Storm. Scott Miller (3DR), and Wilson and Harry Miller after they left Ion in 1998. The games they published were big hits on the PC. Mafia, Hidden and Dangerous 2, Rune, Railroad Tycoon, Stronghold, Vietcong, Serious Sam and Max Payne. They didn't shut down because someone died in a motorcycle accident (?). One of the founders, Doug Myers, died of an asthma attack in 2001. Wilson and co sold the company shortly after.
Lastly, 3DR wasn't paid by Take Two to develop DNF. They funded it out of the millions they made on Prey, Duke 3D and Max Payne. Only in 2009, after Take 2 cancelled Duke Begins, did they try to come to some kind of arrangement for additional funding. There was however internal strife. Nearly half of the development team left the project in 2006 after a coup of sorts took place.
Imbarkus
As Sartre noted in his contemplation on Hell in No Exit, the true horror is other members.
This wasn't a show about flops so much as it was a show about internet legends of flops. And as such it was made up of a lot of lazily-researched myths and opinions.
Speaking of legends, the SK X-Men game was Destiny. Destiny was the correct answer. A title that, without the "X-Men," itself a game that, a few weeks ago on the bombcast, was compared to Too Human.
Wow Dyack caught a lot of crap in this episode for that podcast trying to address concerns of opinionated previews and message boards. Right at the same time, 2007 or 2008, Ubisoft pulled all advertising from EGM and 1up over Mark McDonald's "opinionated preview" of Assassin's Creed. That advertising embargo lasted a long, painful time.
Whomever at Ubisoft made that more damaging and insidious decision got to slink away, while Dyack risked his reputation and appeared to directly discuss the preview and response (in a podcast episode that really was kind of friendly and tame if you can go back and listen to it), now gets to be remembered with Mackey's twice-baked internet echo.
Man go back to the 2007 survival horror Retronauts, compiled in a unique editing order by Scott Sharkey, guest starring Chris Kohler, who added an intelligent discussion of Eternal Darkness, plus a meticulously-researched list of horror games from Shane Bettenhausen, and the presence of an actual woman named Jenn Frank, to hear what this show used to be.
Even besides spewing and then decrying internet hate, this episode just seemed kind of lazy. Like Jeremy flew in so he could mostly listen to Bob read from a sheet of paper in person, upon which Bob had written the extensive set of random rumors he heard about the incomplete list of games at hand. JMHO
Fenster Mayhew
Member
All that, AND I forgot to make fun of the far right. What a failure of an episode!
To make it better, most of them hadn't played the games they were discussing. You are entirely right that it was an episode of internet legends of flops.
I heard this thing about Shenmue. Yeah, well I heard this thing about Daikatana. Has anyone played Eternal Darkness? No, but let me not tell you the names of the computer games Silicon Knights put out.
Edit: I like the show and realized I'm being maybe a little too mean. So just make fun of the right next time and everything will be cool.
Imbarkus
As Sartre noted in his contemplation on Hell in No Exit, the true horror is other members.
It's good that we can find things we all agree upon. Man, what a crummy election.
I tend to enjoy Retronauts even when I don't agree with the opinions aired. Guess I'm just crazy like that.
I'm a huge Shenmue fan, and it's a pet hate of mine when people discuss it without having played it properly, which happens a lot. With that said, most of the discussion was centred around Yu Suzuki and the game's development, which was fairly spot-on.
I understand that, as a fan, I've been exposed to a lot more kitten and sailor jokes than the average listener, and while that stuff is funny and bizarre, it's not what people find interesting about the game. I guess that personally I'd like to see a deeper dive, a dedicated episode perhaps, that looks beyond that stuff. This was never billed as a Shenmue episode, though, and as a "flops" episode it was an enjoyable listen.
The only other comment I'd make is that John Romero seems like such a nice, down-to-Earth guy nowadays.
Jeremy's minisode was an interesting little tidbit, too.
I'm a huge Shenmue fan, and it's a pet hate of mine when people discuss it without having played it properly, which happens a lot. With that said, most of the discussion was centred around Yu Suzuki and the game's development, which was fairly spot-on.
I understand that, as a fan, I've been exposed to a lot more kitten and sailor jokes than the average listener, and while that stuff is funny and bizarre, it's not what people find interesting about the game. I guess that personally I'd like to see a deeper dive, a dedicated episode perhaps, that looks beyond that stuff. This was never billed as a Shenmue episode, though, and as a "flops" episode it was an enjoyable listen.
The only other comment I'd make is that John Romero seems like such a nice, down-to-Earth guy nowadays.
Jeremy's minisode was an interesting little tidbit, too.
JasonUresti
Member
I think Romero was always a nice guy (as noted those questionable ads were all Mike Wilson, who has skated away through history without that being widely circulated) and as someone mentioned above he did give people like Hall and Spector the money to make whatever project they wanted.
Romero was tasked with organizing and managing large sums of money and people, and at the same time leading a team to build a grand FPS with multiple innovative systems for the genre. That's a tall order for anyone in games, let alone a young guy with little managerial experience.
Romero was tasked with organizing and managing large sums of money and people, and at the same time leading a team to build a grand FPS with multiple innovative systems for the genre. That's a tall order for anyone in games, let alone a young guy with little managerial experience.
Imbarkus
As Sartre noted in his contemplation on Hell in No Exit, the true horror is other members.
Me too usually. I almost always enjoy the show, so for there to be only one episode that didn't meet my standards is not a bad thing.
Regardless of whether I agree with the opinions in the episode, those opinions were strongly expressed, and yet slim in terms of research, correct details, and empirical experience playing the actual games.
As stated, an episode summarizing the internet legends of flops.
Eh, I think they were okay and at least pretty entertaining (that Sonic one was godlike).
I mainly like the format because it allows fans to interact with the show in some way. Retronauts has been my favorite podcast for the past 7 years or so (I even made a comprehensive torrent with all the 1up episodes) so it'd be nice to be able to ask a question or two about topics that interest me.
Fenster Mayhew
Member
For the record, all of my notes for this episodes come from existing sources (most of them being news articles of their respective eras), as they're based on the multiple articles I wrote on this topic for USgamer. Any mistakes you heard were either from me misspeaking (our show isn't scripted or anything), or issues with my original sources, which weren't pointed out by any of our readers. And each of those articles took a good day to write and research, so I'd like to discourage people from claiming that we're just skimming Wikipedia or something.
And not being able to get over our use of the word "flop" seem particularly pedantic to me--It's a simple term that encompasses all of these games. They're known best for being failures, despite what other qualities they possess. And even if you don't agree, who cares? It was a good excuse to talk about games with hellish production cycles.
And not being able to get over our use of the word "flop" seem particularly pedantic to me--It's a simple term that encompasses all of these games. They're known best for being failures, despite what other qualities they possess. And even if you don't agree, who cares? It was a good excuse to talk about games with hellish production cycles.
Imbarkus
As Sartre noted in his contemplation on Hell in No Exit, the true horror is other members.
Controversy. How does it work?
Bob I already admitted I was too harsh, I like the show and the work you do. This show is always going to run across topics that random people in the audience have researched more extensively, or lived, and who thus take issue with the facts presented.
That's the thing about history, right? Written by the victors. But I think the tack taken with the episode was kind of mean-spirited, and maybe that established a sort of "gloves off" approach to my response. Peace.
Bob I already admitted I was too harsh, I like the show and the work you do. This show is always going to run across topics that random people in the audience have researched more extensively, or lived, and who thus take issue with the facts presented.
That's the thing about history, right? Written by the victors. But I think the tack taken with the episode was kind of mean-spirited, and maybe that established a sort of "gloves off" approach to my response. Peace.
brianmcdoogle
Member
Imbarkus is irrational in his love of anything relating to Dyack and will defend him and his games to no end, so it might be best just to leave it at that.
I just wanted to say that I have been critical of you in the past (especially what I perceive as cynicism), but I have never had a problem with the research you are doing - on that you are excellent - so keep up the great work.
Imbarkus
As Sartre noted in his contemplation on Hell in No Exit, the true horror is other members.
I thought the podcast was a pretty crummy character piece on John Romero, too.
X-Men: Destiny was not any good, but I do remember it's correct title. Too Human had its pluses and its misuses, and gets remembered only in the context of minuses.
I will say after looking into the history quite a bit, listening to all the related podcasts etc, that I find mocking and lambasting Dyack to be pretty lazy stuff at this point, shooting fish in a barrel. I may just be a bit contrarian, to find everyone's favorite character assassination target and look for the redemption. Eternal Darkness is my main interest that brought me to all of this, and the desire for a sequel.
Fenster Mayhew
Member
Don't worry dude, I turned in my Official Podcasting Badge to the chief this morning. I'll never forget the name of a forgettable game in this town again.
Imbarkus
As Sartre noted in his contemplation on Hell in No Exit, the true horror is other members.
You'd better not, lest you once again face the rather mild wrath of some random dude on the interwebs.
Now get to work on that DVD okay?
charlequin
Banned
Are we really standing u[p to defend Dyack's besmirched honor and absolve Romero of the marketing sins committed in his name now? Is this real life? I don't know what episode people were listening to that was mean-spirited or harsh. (And trying to draw equivalence between the Dyack situation and the Adam Orth situation is absurd.)
Yep! And whatever criticism I had for specific episodes in the past, it's mostly because I hold this podcast to higher standards than I have for other shows. I just want it to be the best it can be.
Imbarkus
As Sartre noted in his contemplation on Hell in No Exit, the true horror is other members.
George Broussard tweeted about his cat this morning. Brenda and John Romero are disgusted by GamerGate. Denis Dyack started a new company just a couple weeks ago.
All devs who have brought us great games in the past. All people with feelings. All fair targets in this podcast and on this forum... Which stands to me in contrast to recent stands against the unrestrained character assassination of GamerGate.
Jeff Bell was even a kind enough person to accept a Facebook friend request from me. I find it fascinating all these intelligent, capable people "on the outs" with the gamer culture.
Gamers are mean and now Retronauts is included.
All devs who have brought us great games in the past. All people with feelings. All fair targets in this podcast and on this forum... Which stands to me in contrast to recent stands against the unrestrained character assassination of GamerGate.
Jeff Bell was even a kind enough person to accept a Facebook friend request from me. I find it fascinating all these intelligent, capable people "on the outs" with the gamer culture.
Gamers are mean and now Retronauts is included.
turnbuckle
Member
This is ridiculous.
You are blowing this out of proportion.
Doom is my favorite video game of all time and I am infinitely grateful to John Romero for it, but at the same time I have no qualms about talking about how he royally fucked up after he left id, and I believe it's important to gaming history. You seem to be viewing this as "shaming" them for the sake of making fun at their expense, which is definitely not the point.
I enjoyed the episode, but I did think it was kind of too mean at times. I was uncomfortable during certain segments like the John Romero stuff.
I'm also kind of disappointed that 'actual' game talk was limited. But I realize that the games wouldn't have been flops if people had actually played them. I guess you're going to run into problems where people are just going on word of mouth and whatever perception dominated at the time.
I'm also kind of disappointed that 'actual' game talk was limited. But I realize that the games wouldn't have been flops if people had actually played them. I guess you're going to run into problems where people are just going on word of mouth and whatever perception dominated at the time.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
You can't deny that there was a lot of editorializing at the very least.
Imbarkus
As Sartre noted in his contemplation on Hell in No Exit, the true horror is other members.
Oh man did Denis Dyack ever fuck up coming on here and trying to manage PR directly on NeoGAF for Too Human. Too Human had a lot of mistakes made, for sure. But how we record gaming history has to do with how we repeat and retell gaming history. That's the nature of history, right?
I was there too, listening to the podcast where Dyack confronted Mark McDonald about opinionated previews. It got heated for a few moments but calmed down, ended reasonable, with the two guys friendly and Bettenhausen adding that anyone who had love for SamSho couldn't be all bad.
I also remember that Ubisoft responded to opinionated previews at around the same time for Assassin's Creed in a different way. Not Dyack's direct, honest, appearance taken at great personal risk and talking directly to the press about the issue. Just an advertising black out handed down anonymously. Jeremy was there, for all of that.
Five years later Mark McDonald and 8-4 Play call Dyack "Dunkin' Donuts" (real nice make fun of the fat guy) as they publicly trash the kickstarter for the Eternal Darkness follow-up on their podcast, which they accuse will be a sham and a ripoff and a mess. A year later the 7th Assassin's Creed game comes out, and is a sham and a ripoff and a mess complete with the review embargo controversy, such that opinionated REVIEWS are at risk.
So, if the facts about history, even for just the one topic of opinionated previews, aren't reported in aresearched way that sometimes questions the accepted narrative, then we just repeat to each other the same agreed-upon versions. Right now, the way things seems to work, named individuals get torn down completely for their mistakes, while nameless individuals running faceless companies seem to face no real-life consequences, and advance their agendas.
ToastyFrog
Inexplicable Treasure Hate
I've been telling you people for years I'm terrible at podcasting, but no one ever listens. At least someone finally gets it.
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
Decent start to the new season, but in general, I want more of the Retronauts crew to play more of the games they talk about. I know this isn't that easy, but it makes a big difference in the quality of discussion. Special guests can sometimes be good (the Baldur's Gate guy last season knew what he was talking about and added a lot) but their quality frankly isn't very consistent, and they don't have the same chemistry the core people do.
Imbarkus
As Sartre noted in his contemplation on Hell in No Exit, the true horror is other members.
I've never loved a podcast more than yours, even the Bombcast. I'm shocked at how I myself feel.
It's like this one decision, to support the sequel to Eternal Darkness' kickstarter, has split me off from all other gamers. And in the year since I've watched all the other gamers split apart from each other over GamerGate.
I really respect you Jeremy. I've liked Bob ever since he came on board. I was a day one backer of the original Retronauts Kickstarter. I can not like one show and get over it man you've provided me hundreds of hours of fascinating and insightful knowledge into gaming history.
I know I'm the one who kicked up here the loudest. But I'm no hater. I'm anti-hate, or try to be. Trying to avoid hate and/or character assassination related to gaming has been a tough row for a few months now. I honestly just didn't expect even the mild dose I got, from Retronauts. I have probably over-reacted. It makes me sad you just feel attacked, instead of wanting to weigh in on opinionated previews, etc.
Imbarkus
As Sartre noted in his contemplation on Hell in No Exit, the true horror is other members.
We can have nice things. But sometimes we have to put a little effort into it.
Still a fan. Life goes on.
This would be my only complaint, really, but it's been around a long time and is fairly significant. Some members are more guilty of this than others.
If it's not an NES, SNES, or mainstream popular game chances are it didn't get played. My personal preference in playing old games is going back to discover the games and systems I missed, and for the past 15 odd years during which older games were perceived to be trash and readily available for cheap I have done just that. This is just me, though, and I'm sure there's a large audience out there who are more than happy to have their nostalgic views reinforced.
When a system that was as popular as the Genesis generally gets the shaft from the group, what chance do other, more obscure systems have?
To be fair, this describes the vast majority of all "retro" game media across the board, and Retronauts tends to be better than most out there.
Fenster Mayhew
Member
I think you're taking a podcast episode featuring lighthearted jokes about easy targets just a bit too seriously. They're essentially celebrities and open to the same scrutiny as any public figure. Do you send letters to NBC every week urging them to cancel Saturday Night Live for its relentless character assassinations of actors, politicians, and musicians?
In the words of famous sociopath John Stossel, "Give me a break."
Imbarkus
As Sartre noted in his contemplation on Hell in No Exit, the true horror is other members.
There's a lot of weird grey area here, with what's been going on in game development lately.
But even without broaching any of that, I know that I'm getting to the point where I don't really like how we put game devs who have a flops like these out to pasture. I've read a crummy book from Stephen King and seen a crappy J.J. Abrams movie but they both continue to work and get to release their work because they are capable of producing great things, and creative endeavors are a hit-and-miss thing.
Super 8, for example, couldn't decide if it was a nostalgic homage to E.T., or a nostalgic homage to Aliens, and so did a poor job at either.
But I'm still pretty jazzed about seeing what he's going to do with Episode 7.
But even without broaching any of that, I know that I'm getting to the point where I don't really like how we put game devs who have a flops like these out to pasture. I've read a crummy book from Stephen King and seen a crappy J.J. Abrams movie but they both continue to work and get to release their work because they are capable of producing great things, and creative endeavors are a hit-and-miss thing.
Super 8, for example, couldn't decide if it was a nostalgic homage to E.T., or a nostalgic homage to Aliens, and so did a poor job at either.
But I'm still pretty jazzed about seeing what he's going to do with Episode 7.