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[KAL2006]

After seeing Microsoft's Inside Xbox and Sony's PS5 event. As well as aton of indie showcases. I've noticed a ton of indie games that look they got a decent budget. Yes Indies existed during this generation and as well as PS3/360 generation. But I feel now there is a shift of type of games that Indies are making. Before a vast majority of indie games were 2D games.

Now we are getting a ton of indie games that look like some of these AAA games. Seeing some of these games and finding out only a handful of people have developed the game is shocking. I think thanks to easier game development, ray tracing more and more indie games will look higher budget.

We used to complain back in the PS3/360 generation that we are missing cool AA games and getting the same generic AAA games taking no risks. I feel that thanks to Indies they are producing cool looking games the lack of game variety is a thing of the past.

 

[rofif]

AA is something completely else. Singularity was AA, Bionic Commando, Fuel, Binary Domain, alpha protocol, EDF games, Deadly Premonition etc etc. Games that are ambitious but often a bit clunky and under budget.
Strength of Indie games lies not in graphics but style and ideas too weird/ambitious/crazy for publisher to pump money into. Not just make pixel game after pixel game. It's Braid, Limbo, Inside, Super Meatboy, Insanely Twisted Shadow Planet, Hotline Miami, Spelunky, Binding of Isaac, Enter the Gungeon, Gone Home, Firewatch etc etc

 

[lock2k]

Good. AA is my bread and butter. Fuck AAA.

 

[kretos]

Good. AA is my bread and butter. Fuck AAA.

Fuck AA, i want AAAA

 

[Birdo]

Single A is where it's at.

 

[Humdinger]

I hope that's true. I hoped for a return of the AA title last gen, and it never really materialized. I also hoped that the indie resurgence on consoles would produce lots of innovative, unique games that I would enjoy. Instead, I found that I had to search far and wide, through hundreds of titles I had no interest in, to find indies worth playing. So both of those turned out to be kind of disappointments (for me) last gen. I hope next gen will be different, although I'm not sure exactly why it would be.

 

[bender]

Personally, I like those hard D games.

 

[lock2k]

Fuck AA, i want AAAA

A walking simulator that's actually a VR quarantine simulator and you walk inside your head. That's AAAA lol

 

[Bartski]

T&A for life

 

[DragoonWalker]

Indies (typically defined) rarely fill appetite for AA. Fun but often no depth/too short. Focused on 1 singular aspect (deep story/unique gameplay gimmick).

AA games offer AAA experiences with less bloat/lesser but still detailed graphics/dash of intriguing ideas too risky for bigger games.

Examples this gen: Greedfall, Frogware's works, Vampyr, Outer Worlds, Trials of Mana, Gravity Rush.
But lines are blurring. Undertale is a full sized game, even if it's graphics are retro. Is Disco Elysium, a game of incredible depth/length, an indie game? Outer Wilds? Hellblade? Little Devil Inside from an indie studio, but looks sprawling. Same with Biomutant, which is made by a small team.

 

[HE1NZ]

I don't know about that. If you look at indies they present at the shows, they look more rehashed than AAA titles. The same 2-3 ugly artstyles and an attempt at imitating some older games. AA titles of the past always had some kind of identity that made them memorable.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I interpret AA as games like Darksiders, Prototype, Vanquish, Spec Ops the Line. Games that are solid, sometimes $40 to start and have enough meat in it to last like a AAA game. Just lower budgets and polish.

The typical indie game is not that.

A lot of those SeX and PS5 preview videos weren't even gameplay. The indie games might look visually decent, but they are likely BBB or A games when you get to meat and length of the games.

 

[Deleted member 471617]

AA games are great. THQ Nordic has been great in this area as has Focus Home Interactive. Expecting even more great AA titles from both next generation.

 

[namekuseijin]

so far, VR has been mostly AA territory

 

[ACESHIGH]

I am not noticing this at all. In fact I believe we are in the worst times for 3D Single Player AA games if we go by the recent showings. Most modern looking games were co op or multiplayer. It seems that it's either modern production values or single player campaign.

I was hoping that we would eventually stop with the 2D retro fad that stared with XBLA but no luck so far. Your typical 2D Indie Metroidvania - RPG Maker game has a better chance of succeeding as long as they are decent games because they are simple and cheaper to put together. And you won't notice many shortfalls as they are mimicking 8 or 16 bit 2D games. You can get away with your chiptunes, simple animation and no voice acting.

3D AA games are between a rock and a hard place because reviewers typically compare them against best in class AAA games of the past and of course they end up losing.

Dumbasses expect Daymare 1998 and Dangerous Driving to show up out of nowhere and be as good as RE4 and Burnout 3... That won't happen but if they were allowed to do sequels it would be much better. Like it was in the PS1 and PS2 days, where a sequel of a game always meant bigger and better.

 

[Sagii86]

Glad some paying attention and bring it into a firm discussion. The main reason is due to the progression of UE and Unity in the last 8 years (more to follow in the near future). I suspect that will change the face of the industry by the end of the upcoming cycle.

 

[ACESHIGH]

I don't know if it's worth to open a new thread because it is related to this one but:

As gamers, where are we willing to settle when it comes to production values so that AA games are more prevalent? Are we? Clearly AA games can't tick all the boxes. For me, they can do away with voice acting, motion capture, cutscenes and reduce game duration(which would be a plus in a sea of 80 hours AAA borefests)

 

[KAL2006]

Glad some paying attention and bring it into a firm discussion. The main reason is due to the progression of UE and Unity in the last 8 years (more to follow in the near future). I suspect that will change the face of the industry by the end of the upcoming cycle.

This is why u made this thread

Unreal 5 demo showcase where you don't need to lower poly versions of assets and just move 1 uncompressed model into the engine without worry. Also ray tracing will make indie games look good straight away with a low budget.

All these things just make game development much easier. We are already seeing some quality games where people are shocked that a small team is making the game.

 

[synchronicity]

The best thing about indie gaming is that they generally aren't beholden to quarterly financial reports. They're free to be experimental and create without concessions to a profitability-first mindset.

If games are art before product (and to me they certainly are), the creative aspect of the equation should always come prior to the financial one.

 

[Starlight Lotice]

I remember when AA were simply called "B-Tiered" games that many Japanese Publishers and a few smaller Western Publishers (THQ) made.

When I think of AA, I think of Square/Namco/SEGA/THQ stuff.

 

[INC]

gimme more singularity, second sight, psy ops, freedom fighters, dark sector etc etc

 

[JimboJones]

I am liking the quake and Duke nukem era style FPS resurgence.

 

[MrS]

I am liking the quake and Duke nukem era style FPS resurgence.

Agreed. Ion Fury is fuckin fire. More like this is needed.

 

[NahaNago]

I remember when AA were simply called "B-Tiered" games that many Japanese Publishers and a few smaller Western Publishers (THQ) made.

When I think of AA, I think of Square/Namco/SEGA/THQ stuff.

I was thinking that AA was pretty much Japanese games back in the day except for Final Fantasy. Those weird games that looked really nice but only did like 2 things really well and one would be it's graphics style and the other would be either strategy or crazy style combat.

 

[D.Final]

THQ is here.

 

[Moogle11]

This is something I was hoping would happens as more indie studios had some big hits that made them enough money to increase in size and scope for future projects.

The big AAA studios largely aren't going to spend time on AA projects as the profit margins for those just aren't what investors who want a single player blockbuster to sell 10+ million, or even better, MP/Service games that can be heavily monetized and generate revenue for years on top of the sales price.

 

[D.Final]

This already happening

 

[trapanesenyc]

I think gamepass played a huge role in the resurgence. When you beat the witcher 3, and looking for smth new to play on gamepass and download say The Long Dark, you opening your range to something you would never buy but will play because its available and realize that a game doesn't need a 80 million dollar budget to be good.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Indies destroyed the old paradigm of "indie", B-tier, AAA, and so forth. AAA merely refers to a budget now. Minecraft sold more than games that cost 1,000x more to create.

 

[M1chl]

WHAT? NO

Glad some paying attention and bring it into a firm discussion. The main reason is due to the progression of UE and Unity in the last 8 years (more to follow in the near future). I suspect that will change the face of the industry by the end of the upcoming cycle.

For worse, sure, because point of entry does not require much more than watching few tutorials and some basic ass idea, which you copy from other games.

 

[Vawn]

I don't consider most indies to be AA. Games like Disgaea, Atelier, Tales of, etc are what I consider AA.

 

[Sagii86]

WHAT? NO



For worse, sure, because point of entry does not require much more than watching few tutorials and some basic ass idea, which you copy from other games.

I respect your opinion, even though I'm not sure you get to the bottom of what I said.

 

[M1chl]

I respect your opinion, even though I'm not sure you get to the bottom of what I said.

Possible, but when this things weren't so easy, it was way less that cookie-cutter games. And I know it's terrible thing to say, I am programmer myself : D Not gaming tho.

 

[Moogle11]

Indies destroyed the old paradigm of "indie", B-tier, AAA, and so forth. AAA merely refers to a budget now. Minecraft sold more than games that cost 1,000x more to create.

I don't think any would disagree with that. The point is the "AA" budget tier had mostly died off. The vast majority of things were either low budget indies or mobile games or high budget AAA games this generation (and most of last as well). Seems like with some of the indies shown for next gen so far we're seeing more in that "AA" budget range. I.e. decent looking 3D graphics with production values way below AAA, but still well above the budget/retro trend of many indies in the past.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

I don't think any would disagree with that. The point is the "AA" budget tier had mostly died off. The vast majority of things were either low budget indies or mobile games or high budget AAA games this generation (and most of last as well). Seems like with some of the indies shown for next gen so far we're seeing more in that "AA" budget range. I.e. decent looking 3D graphics with production values way below AAA, but still well above the budget/retro trend of many indies in the past.

Kingdom Come: Deliverance, Witcher 3, and Star Citizen are all indie, I think.

"Indie" and "AAA" are not on two different ends of a scale anymore.

 

[Aion002]

AA never died.

MS, Sony and Nintendo releases a lot AA games.

Compare the budget of Uncharted Lost Legacy with Uncharted 4 or Mario Odyssey with Mario Maker.

Even now with Spiderman Miles and Sackboy Adventure, both games are new but not new new.... They try to hide it, but surely they are way less expensive than LB3 and Spiderman.

Also, this gen had so many AA games from third party studios like The Surge, Greedfall, Nioh, Evil Within... They might make them feel like AAA... But surely their budget were way less than something like FFXV or Breath of The Wild.

 

[godhandiscen]

I noticed this too. As development tools evolve allowing smaller teams to create more complex games, it is these teams that are building the kind of experiences I want to enjoy.
Meanwhile AAA games are turning into micro-transaction infested shit parades.

 

[Moogle11]

Kingdom Come: Deliverance, Witcher 3, and Star Citizen are all indie, I think.

"Indie" and "AAA" are not on two different ends of a scale anymore.

There's always exceptions. When people say indie these days the generally mean the smaller studies that will never have the budget for AAA games. There will always be a few bigger studies that stay independent from any publisher like CDPR or that crowd fund a shit ton like the Star Citizen devs.

I look forward to seeing some of the smaller teams who've had success with lower budget titles and made a lot of profit expand some with that money and do something with more than 8 to 16 bit type retro graphics.

But I get your semantics point. It just is what it is as labels are never perfect. Ignoring studios, I'm happy we may see some more creativity with better graphics as we look to start seeing games in between the low budget/low production value/retro looking stuff and AAA high end production values that's been missing.