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Revisiting The MGSV plot [Spoilers]
- Thread starter Jindrax
- Start date
Honestly I think it's exactly the opposite, MGSV trailers were so exactly representative of the game that people basically figured out the entire plot of the game including basically every twist just from the trailers. People called the "Venom is a body double and Ishmael is Big Boss" thing like, right after the first trailer. Eli being Liquid was obvious within two seconds of seeing his character design.
Pretty much this
Big Boss might be w/e about all that, but Venom cares, especially because he believes he was the one who did that. Also, killing The Boss.
Sora the Cat
Member
I enjoyed the story :'(
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
I agree, they gave away too much and it hit the community hard. However, I'm replying to the people ITT that specifically feel the trailers misrepresented the story (and who clearly weren't following the crazy community theories).
So... do you agree he was right referring to himself as a demon...?
Berserker976
Member
How is it picking and choosing? Raiden was trained since age 6 to kill people by a perfect clone of Big Boss. He was the most qualified person in the world even before the VR training.
All we know about the medic is that he was "one of their best". Although apparently he wasn't good enough to do a competent cavity search.
MGSV is the perfect example of how people expectation are too high in general and doesn't respect author of their favorite series.
Kojima never gave to players what they wanted, as it should, love it or hate it but for me, it's a masterpiece at a different level than 95% of games.
Kojima never gave to players what they wanted, as it should, love it or hate it but for me, it's a masterpiece at a different level than 95% of games.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Does being Big Boss' best man (i.e. The player who has accompanied BB throughout his journey) not a good enough qualification...?
Not at all. Like I said, from my point of view, he was blaming himself for everything BB did, since he didn't know he was the medic.
Roni
Banned
It's picking and choosing because that comparison completely excludes talent from the equation.
You're basically saying Raiden is unique because of the amount of time he spent training under Solidus. As if no one could ever be better with less training time because they're naturally more apt to a particular task.
Venon trained under the man himself for some time and that was enough to train his body to match, his knowledge was the same as Big Boss due to the memory implants no training can beat that.
Raiden was trained by Solidus, Venom was Big Boss.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Since he thinks he's BB, it would be very much in character for him to say "I'm already a demon" given the things BB has done, surely?
WrenchNinja
Member
People saying one thing and doing another is a far cry from saying you're not playing the good little soldier anymore, saying you have to get your hands really dirty and then doing all the nicest things ever insteadWhy is it stretching...?
I recall it pretty well, ta. That's why I paraphrased a quote from it.
Then again, he was the player, wasn't he? So in that sense he literally was "anyone".
Kidnapping people, using Child Soldiers, building a Metal Gear and using a nuke as a deterrent... yeah, real angelic entity there.
Raiden is only the player character in how he is as clueless as we are and "played metal gear solid". Even at the start of the game he has his own shit going on a personal level, and by the end of it fully rejects being just a puppet
Gameplay element, one child rescued from evil cia soldiers, two assholes decide to build that shit on their own and he goes along with it. Yup real demonic.
GreyOcelot
Member
wat. you realize you're qualifying meat's statements, right? if medic thought he was big boss, him referring to himself as a demon makes perfect sense
Damn, thanks for linking this. I'm still reading through it and it is a great analysis.
Yeah.
What I meant is that VS is not right into thinking he's the demon, since he wasn't responsible for those things. But it does make sense that he thinks that way
Sorry for the confusion, guys.
WrenchNinja
Member
He had more history to him by the time you meet Plissken than Venom did the entire game. That's not even factoring in all the real shit we learn about him. The comparison to Raiden is weak and you know it.
Roni
Banned
Kojima has always pandered to the loyal. If you played Peace Walker extensively, chances are you used combat unit members and perhaps even had a favorite.
MGSV supports you taking that guy and making him into Snake if you wish to, that already makes Venom's backstory possibly much richer than Raiden since it will be custom made and someone the player has already spent time with.
Raiden's history is pre-cooked, one-size-fits-all bullshit.
Berserker976
Member
This is just such a weird point of view. Literally all we know about Venom is that he was considered to be one of Big Boss' best nameless, faceless soldiers. You have to say Venom trained under Big Boss for "some time" because we have no idea for how long he actually trained under him.
Venom was not Big Boss. Unless you want to somehow argue they "downloaded" every experience Big Boss ever had, and his entire personality (which clearly they didn't, based on how different Big Boss and Venom act).
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
It's deeper than that. Raiden circumstances are meant to reflect Kojima's pastiche of the player (the nagging girlfriend, the hero worship of Snake, the history of violence... in video games etc.).
Are you being deliberately obtuse...?
It ties into and is referenced in the narrative. He spends two games kidnapping people, brainwashing them, and building a private army. Angelic, huh?
"Gameplay element" XD
Two. For all he knew, Paz was a little girl.
...rather than stopping them.
We do? Please, enlighten me, what do we know about Raiden prior to him meeting Plisken...? He did some training?
If I thought it was weak, I wouldn't have brought it up.
Agree, a wonderful game.
But as a the 'truelastfinal' MGS I expected a bit more BB not just a side story with his mimic.
nadnerb 64
Neo Member
Let's all be honest, the end was kinda jacked... No matter how you make sense of it
Roni
Banned
You should revisit the tapes, we're arguing because you're missing some information.
WrenchNinja
Member
Chances, perhaps, possibly. This is some really silly mental gymnastics here.
How about not going with what ifs and sticking with what actually happened in peacewalker, like me (as in big Boss and not zucchini mongoose or frigid wallaby or koala turducken) chasing that asshole zadornov 6 times cause kojima thinks repetitive bullshit is fun
The Real Napsta
Member
Is it confirmed that the big boss you fight in metal gear is Venom?
Yes via the timeline at the end.
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Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
How in the world could you possibly over analyze this imagery?
The game's marketing was incredibly misleading and several scenes were outright removed. And it can most definitely be inferred that the plan per se was for the player to do horrible things and for Venom to go psycho however we never see that, nor do we see BB go evil because he pissed off and went on vacation with his boy Zero. The twist was very poor because like so many other elements of the plot it's very contrived. The explanation in the OP makes little sense because VS couldn't be anymore of a Gary Stu truth be told.
Roni
Banned
Good thing you've brought this up, a chance to talk about the real issue here: I play games to exercise my creative muscles in an interesting way.
If I wanted to be told something, I'd go read a book or watch a movie. The fact that I've had to endure static narratives this long is a matter of media maturity. It's all nice and good, I enjoyed what I've been exposed to thus far, but I welcome any and all attempts at making my game narratives more personal in video games.
So, no, how about we don't attain to the static narrative pieces of the last couple of games and instead respect the fact that Kojima deliberately left those open for interpretation? If you want to stick with narratives that tell you everything, feel free, but I suspect the future holds less and less interesting titles for you and, with that in mind, MGSV's story is also definitely not for you, no wonder you seem to dislike it.
Jawmuncher
Member
The story had the right tone, just not the right pace. It was a case of the highs being high and the lows being way too low.
How in the world could you possibly over analyze this imagery?
The game's marketing was incredibly misleading and several scenes were outright removed. And it can most definitely be inferred that the plan per se was for the player to do horrible things and for Venom to go psycho however we never see that, nor do we see BB go evil because he pissed off and went on vacation with his boy Zero. The twist was very poor because like so many other elements of the plot it's very contrived.
"Several scenes"? I only know of the first gif you posted and another scene from that trailer that were missing. The plan was never to have go venom go psycho as throughout the game he's portrayed as a heroic character. As far as Big boss goes the fall already happened with the end of mgs3, and no he didn't go on vacation with zero. In fact he still didn't like Zero until right at the very end of MGS4.
This is very much true. There's no way to defend the random Cipher cut out filler missions. Unfortunate side effect of going open world.
BossDarkseid
Member
I kinda wish the game had the boss unit be Big Boss/Venom and his allies. Like the standoff vs the Red Army not only be Big Boss and Quiet but also Ocelot, Liquid's Child Army and Huey in a D walker or something. Hell, eveb just Ocelot would have been cool.
On one hand i dont mind the venom twist but it was not needed and just makes big boss seem like a dick. I had an idea that maybe Big Boss was willing to go to war with Russia over something - like say Skull Face was state sponsored - and his monstrous act is waging war on the Red Army in afghanistan, using child soldiers and all that and Ocelot, Quiet etc are so loyal because he goes on a solo mission to rescue them.
I dunno
On one hand i dont mind the venom twist but it was not needed and just makes big boss seem like a dick. I had an idea that maybe Big Boss was willing to go to war with Russia over something - like say Skull Face was state sponsored - and his monstrous act is waging war on the Red Army in afghanistan, using child soldiers and all that and Ocelot, Quiet etc are so loyal because he goes on a solo mission to rescue them.
I dunno
I think you got it wrong. Venom does not go crazy and OG Big Boss does not feel he needs to be taken down.
OG Big Boss is just playing around against Outer Heaven, just to see if he can follow the trail to the Patriots as he receives orders. The only problem in this plan is that he didn't foresee Solid to wtfpwn Outer Heaven.
OG Big Boss and Venom Big Boss are in cahoots to the bitter end.
OG Big Boss is just playing around against Outer Heaven, just to see if he can follow the trail to the Patriots as he receives orders. The only problem in this plan is that he didn't foresee Solid to wtfpwn Outer Heaven.
OG Big Boss and Venom Big Boss are in cahoots to the bitter end.
SomedayTheFire
Member
Looks like the game achieved its goal of getting you to dislike Big Boss.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Kojima marketing "misleading"? I, for one, am shocked. I think I can see one scene in your gallery of gifs that wasn't included in the game. We saw Big Boss descend into "evil" over the course of MGS3, PW, GZ.and in some small parts of TPP.
The key word in your post is "inferred".
I really like the twist of Venoms character. Big boss was a demon the moment he didn't shake the Secretaries hand, he and zero both completely misinterpreted the Bosses will, BB spends 10 years in denial about it, finally abandons that denial when he sees Peace Walker sacrifice itself again. From there on he no longer uses the Bosses will as an excuse, he completely goes against his own ideals by taking the life of his own soldier and using him and a hospital full of innocent people as a scape goat to hide. None of the snakes were truly heroic, especially Big boss, they all have some moral ambiguity to them. Venom was the baby face the world was meant to see while BB did nefarious stuff in the background to take down an AI that went out of control.
V does an excellent job setting up and justifying all the tragedy of the series and makes the waters even murkier for the true villains in the series, the patriots.
V does an excellent job setting up and justifying all the tragedy of the series and makes the waters even murkier for the true villains in the series, the patriots.
Maybe that's the point of the twist? Many people complain about how we don't see Big Boss turning into a demon, but the ending shows that by the end of the game, he was already a demon.
Kojima really fucked keeping the chapter labels even though the team obviously knew the game wouldn't be finished. Should just have Prologue, Main game (what Chapter 1 is currently), Epilogue (what chapter 2 is currently) since the game's main story really ends with skullface dead and everything else is just finishing up character arcs or answering some questions.
Great post.
Great post.
Berserker976
Member
What information? I think I remember the tapes pretty well, and I don't remember them saying anything about who Venom was other than he was a trusted soldier and he would have wanted this.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
We never see BB experience a fall, we see the motivation, but not the actual fall, Kojima had not one but two chances to show it too. There's at least one child soldier scene that was cut, (where they had a tank), ofc the Eli storyline, whatever they created the burned Venom asset for, the burning village scene, the camp omega scenes. The vacation with Zero thing was also a little joke. It's the same problem with the star wars prequels, we're told about stuff that happened instead of being shown.
WrenchNinja
Member
It's deeper than that. Raiden circumstances are meant to reflect Kojima's pastiche of the player (the nagging girlfriend, the hero worship of Snake, the history of violence... in video games etc.).
Are you being deliberately obtuse...?
It ties into and is referenced in the narrative. He spends two games kidnapping people, brainwashing them, and building a private army. Angelic, huh?
"Gameplay element" XD
Two. For all he knew, Paz was a little girl.
...rather than stopping them.
We do? Please, enlighten me, what do we know about Raiden prior to him meeting Plisken...? He did some training?
If I thought it was weak, I wouldn't have brought it up.
Which are all actual things actually reflected in the video game.
No, are you adding more to something when it's such a throw away element? When it's treated like catching pokemon and you don't do any of the actual "brain washing" it's hard to give any weight to it. He creates an army in one game to fight back against a rogue cia unit, and another to fight against...another rogue cia unit. Totes demonic.
Right, I forgot. A whole two kids.
Well he could have just left the nuke in the river and let it irradiate the environment. And he could have used zeke. But y'know I guess he didn't. Cause y'know that's what demons do.
thinks he's hot shit but is immediately freaked out by what's going on, hates that his gf is even slightly involved. That's not even including shit you can learn from the codec like his knowledge of films and arguing about, where he worked and lived, and how he met rose
And i play games to unwind. What about MGSV was personal? How did you affect the story? Did you not recruit quiet or d-dog? I guess thats something I suppose. Is it the little stories of how you entered and escaped a base or completed a mission? Cool. Those are your stories and no one can take those from you. But we're talking about the one that's actually there to dissect.
I don't really need to respect anything here in the game. I dont really have to care about authorial intent either. I bought and played a game, I didn't like it much but I find great enjoyment in tearing it apart here so at least it has value to me in that way. I don't know, even in 2015 people still liked putting out games with stories and actual characters. I think 2016 is going to be alright too. But hey, the future is unwritten. Maybe you're right.
Good idea, but I don't think it works.
It's Big Boss who becomes the monster, not Venom Snake. There's nothing to explicitly suggest Venom Snake has lost it. Big Boss has done equally crazy shit over the years.
Venom Snake is simply a pawn of Big Boss who has become an ultimate manipulator – and Venom doesn't realise this until it's too late and Solid Snake is at his door.
You don't need to see the 'actual fall'. It's written between the lines. Which is an absolutely valid tool in storytelling - the suggestion, not the fact. In A Clockwork Orange, the narrator never explicitly states that he is raping the two girls he brings back to his parents' house, nor does he describe it. It's a crucial part of his character building, which is implicated but never described. The implication is as powerful as the fact, and just as clear.
This goes for countless works of fiction, and it goes for MGSV, too. Kojima never needed to show Big Boss's fall on-screen. Instead he shows it from the perspective of a pawn - the person who was used and abused by Big Boss (willingly to begin with, unwillingly at the end) at a distance. Which isn't necessarily more effective, but is far more meaningful. It also gives him the space to draw metaphorical/symbolic parallels more easily.
There are plenty of gaping problems with MGSV's story, but this isn't one of them. I don't know why it's so hard for people to get this.
(Also the Star Wars comment is totally irrelevant: Star Wars leaves out backstory. MGSV doesn't leave out any lore/backstory. MGSV leaves out plot which is on-going during the narration.)
It's Big Boss who becomes the monster, not Venom Snake. There's nothing to explicitly suggest Venom Snake has lost it. Big Boss has done equally crazy shit over the years.
Venom Snake is simply a pawn of Big Boss who has become an ultimate manipulator – and Venom doesn't realise this until it's too late and Solid Snake is at his door.
You don't need to see the 'actual fall'. It's written between the lines. Which is an absolutely valid tool in storytelling - the suggestion, not the fact. In A Clockwork Orange, the narrator never explicitly states that he is raping the two girls he brings back to his parents' house, nor does he describe it. It's a crucial part of his character building, which is implicated but never described. The implication is as powerful as the fact, and just as clear.
This goes for countless works of fiction, and it goes for MGSV, too. Kojima never needed to show Big Boss's fall on-screen. Instead he shows it from the perspective of a pawn - the person who was used and abused by Big Boss (willingly to begin with, unwillingly at the end) at a distance. Which isn't necessarily more effective, but is far more meaningful. It also gives him the space to draw metaphorical/symbolic parallels more easily.
There are plenty of gaping problems with MGSV's story, but this isn't one of them. I don't know why it's so hard for people to get this.
(Also the Star Wars comment is totally irrelevant: Star Wars leaves out backstory. MGSV doesn't leave out any lore/backstory. MGSV leaves out plot which is on-going during the narration.)
Roni
Banned
Listen to 'Doublethink' again. It goes over this:
This is supported by the lie: the player expectation that we're playing as Big Boss. It mirrors and parallels Venom's belief that he is Big Boss.
I wonder if you're trolling or not because we've been going over that for the past few posts. And you forget we've also been talking about Peace Walker.
swearing-circle
Member
There is massive evidence that Venom does evil shit between the time jump of 5 and MG1. when he walks infront of the mirror his horn is massive and he's covered in blood. He has become demon Snake.
BossDarkseid
Member
Heh, probably.
Yeah, I just meant..it sorta felt like a needless twist. I mean Skull Face was basically a McGuffin - sorta - but he was still the main villain of the game. Unless people say it's Huey
Well that scene is very much open to interpretation (There are no facts
) so the way I saw it was that he looks in the mirror and sees a demon because of what he just learned in that tape. He looks angry as well so he probably knows that he has to die. He also loses the horn and blood once he punches the mirror so I didn't see it as him becoming demon snake over the years. Of course we have no idea what he did over those 11 years so maybe he did bad shit.Neither was the medic if Big Boss is to be believed.