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[Xrenity]

All info in here comes from R0nn (junior) and Waimea. As the first couldn't open a thread, he asked me to.

Everybody seems to kind of read over it, so to NOT let this stuff go under the radar, I'll sum some things up.

There's some ppl out there really excited about an old (October) quote from Luciano Perena (Nintendo Of Spain Director) that went unnoticed at the time, check it out for yourself:

Luciano Perena at MeriStation

Translation:
" But we don't set aside the rest of of its aspects. Revolution will allow DVD playback, will contain 2 USB ports, 512MB of internal flash memory, a slot for SD cards, and all the technology that makes up the controller: movement in 3D, vibration, a tilt sensor that will generate different counterweights/counterbalances, and an extrernal slot on the controller to incorporare any type of peripheral. The possibilities for control are many and it's already been seen in the video from the recent Tokyo Game Show. "

MeriStation is legit, and so is the interview. So could this be the ultimate force-feedback tech that has been rumoured?

...

Mario Tennis would be really cool if you could feel the balls (no pun intended)

I say WTF!?

We've had this old source saying this just before TGS, however, that article was deleted within the hour. Now, what can we do with this stuff?

That's awesome! First time I read this. That would be the perfect solution for the whole swordfighting problem where you would get no feedback from the game when swords would clash. With this technology, that might just be solved. It will also help in general accuracy and make the immersion even deeper than it already could have been.

...

Counter-argument: what about the price and battery life of this thing. To incorporate counterweights and balances with such an accurate and sensitive controller, isn't easy or simple at all. You'd need a very accurate gyroscope (maybe more than one) together with some rather fast processing power. Especially on that small size it would be kinda tricky. Is this the reason why Nintendo sacrificed much of the processing power of the main unit?

For comparison. A Segway uses two (or was it four?) gyroscopes as well in combination with two or four fast CPU's to counterweight your body for movements. That thing's rather large and still quite expensive mainly because of the steep development costs for that technology. Sure, it needs to counteract your entire bodyweight instead of just an arm of hand, but still. Seems to me the Revolution is technologically much more advanced than most give it credit for. That controller is truly something never seen before.

...

Yes, it's not the gyro itself that would be the problem (GBA carts incorporate them). It's more or less the sensory processing power which is probably needed for something as flexible as this that could make this quite expensive. Don't forget it's in 3D instead of 2D either. BTW, I'm not entirely sure if "decent" is quite enough for the huge accuracy and sensitivity which this controller has according to several hands-on reports. It's comparable to a mouse in that sense.

I'm not neccesarily saying that the controller will be very expensive, or that the console itself might still cost quite a bit, but this could be a perfectly good explanation as to why Nintendo had to cut costs on main processing power. The R&D for this controller seems to have been very steep. It's truly something unique.

...

BTW, anyone realised this already?

With this technology they can incorporate a deadzone in the controller so you wont lose your way when controlling a game. This just keeps on sounding more promising as time goes by.

...

Image driving a car with a steering wheel or flying an airplane with a joystick. You got a center from where you move the steering wheel sideways, while it will go back to it's center position when you let it loose. Same with the joystick. There's a center point from where you move the stick forward, backward and sideways. That center is called the deadzone.

So basically this is exactly the same. The only difference being that the RevCon moves in a 3D space instead of a 2D space like a joystick, mouse, analog stick or steering wheel. If you wouldn't have a deadzone, you'd never know how to position the controller so you stand still in a game for example.

Yeah, it would be directional force-feedback. The further you move away from a point, the greater the force pushing back.

Of course they could do all sorts of things with it, like have it operate the opposite way round - so something is trying to pull the controller away from a point and you have to try and hold it there.

Would be a natural evolution of the rumble-pack, I will be impressed if they've managed to cram this in the controller as well as everything else though and get it to be effective.

And for some more:

There are many things made possible by this type of haptic feedback... the things that immediately come to mind are:

1. Gun recoil in shooting games
2. Sword clanging
3. Balance situations where you're trying to carry something from point A to point B and you have to keep things steady
4. Slight insanity effects where your weapon becomes possessed
5. A better sensation of pulling from the fish that you've just caught
6. Really subtle feedback that would allow for real lock picking (now you can really be the master of unlocking )
7. Simulating the opposing effects of wind in the game (your controller is in the opposite direction you're trying to move it)
8. If you make Mario jump by flicking it up, hitting a block makes it flick down against you (this just better conveys the fact that he hit something)
9. Pimp slapping game with real feedback to each slap.
10. If you get tackled in a football game, the controller is nudged in the direction you got tackled

This is after like 2 minutes of thought... imagine what scenarios can be developed with more time... this, if true, will be what makes the controller truly revolutionary.

~Cris

- Psycho Mantis controlling your hand or arm in MGS. Imagine that. Creepy shit!

- Rope pulling contest

- Trying to resist Force Push or Force Pull

Just thinking about this makes you all excited again. I really wonder how advanced this technology will be. You'd probably need some kind of motor in the controller in conjunction with the gryoscope for this. Maybe even two (and two gyros as well) for the 3D space. I'd imagine the CPU's are in the two sensors next to your TV.

Sounds frikkin' cool. Also, in Nintendo's first TGS teaser, we saw the old man falling on his back while fishing. Maybe the force he expected was much higer than the actual force, so he fell backwards.

*clang*

Sounds promising enough. It'd better be real.

 

[radrelic]

don't get your hopes up

 

[dog$]

This is why trolls exist.

See, with no trolls, nobody bothers looking in a thread as banal as New year greeting card from Nintendo (pics) : Revolution in 2006 for Europe, which in case you've forgotten was newly posted yesterday, and then you get 60 uninterrupted posts of Nfans talking to themselves and generating stuff like the above.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

Hmmmm let's not get too excited here. A sustained force against your actions is unfortunately an impossible dream without some kind of external exertion, eg. a rope pulling on the controller or a massive electromagnet setup. I'll tell you what kind of things are possible;

- Rumble (this is implemented by rotating a weighted axle, could be effectively used by delivering a single sharp movement and could be used to give the effect of a bat hitting a ball or a gun firing.)

- A single jolt in a given direction, (not likely to happen due to the mechanics of moving a mass around in the controller without rotating it)

- A resistance to being rotated in a plane (likely, if you set up a gyroscope it is difficult to turn the controller through the axes perpendicular to the axis of rotation), this for example could make it difficult to lift up a fishing rod. It would not pull back on the rod.

Any picture you have of fighting back and forth with the controller should be dismissed.

Please read this.

 

[SantaC]

This is why trolls exist.

See, with no trolls, nobody bothers looking in a thread as banal as New year greeting card from Nintendo (pics) : Revolution in 2006 for Europe, which in case you've forgotten was newly posted yesterday, and then you get 60 uninterrupted posts of Nfans talking to themselves and generating stuff like the above.

This is a gaming-board, and one of the most popular ones on the net. Your whining over those posts isn't better than those who posted in them really. Why do you even care?

 

[dog$]

Maybe my point wasn't clear enough.

I click in here thinking maybe I could possibly read some actual new information concerning the damned thing for once in a blue moon. So I look in and no, he states right out that it's stuff that was posted before. Ok, that's fine, but I wonder how recent it really was. So I search and it turns out this stuff is barely more than 24 hours old.

So we really need a new thread based on stuff that's from a thread which is barely three pages off of the front? All it contains is points which have been discussed previously.

e: I shouldn't talk Valley Girl

 

[Keyser Soze]

Gyroscopes are back baby!

 

[meppi]

Not to mention it's pretty worthless trolling at best seeing that the intention of this thread is to let people actually read about the possible tilt resistance feature that would otherwise be overlooked due to the other threads title.


BTW If Nintendo could actually get this to work it would be incredible, as I don't see how this technology could work with a freehand controller.

But then, who am I.

 

[kaizoku]

I'm not gonna preach about the virtues of trolls or avid Nintendo fans, both display normal, natural and common aspects of human behaviour and no one should ever be surprised that this stuff happens. Ever.

Anyway thanks for this thread, I've learnt something new - that a Nintendo employee confirmed (by accident?) the resistance, or at least thats the rumour. I was kind of wondering how the remote could possibly work without some kind of strong feedback, and what the whole "feeling is better" thing meant.

But I also wonder if its feasible, like...what if a 7 yr old wanted to play, would it be safe? So all in all it would be nice but I still think unlikely. Nevertheless the alleged quote from a Nintendo Director piques my interest.

 

[Sweedishrodeo]

this is alot more feasible than holograms. but its still absurd. i would love to be proved wrong, on feedback (and holograms ;( ).

 

[Deleted member 1235]

I think it would be cool if the controller still had another surprise, but it was pretty surprising already :lol I'm hoping for the rumoured remaining surprise to be game download related.

 

[Xellotah]

You'll need to have reasonably large gyroscopes to have any decent resistance (think in terms of Rob from the NES days ). If you think that gyroscopes the size of your thumbnail ( i.e. anything that can actually fit in the revmote ) will be able to give you good feed back then you must be dreaming.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

I actually thought about this possiblity a few weeks ago.

for example what if the revmote controller could be held lengthways and used as a steering wheel for like MarioKart, and it could provide perfect force feedback.

I mean it is very unlikely, but you forget that Nintendo did buy a company specializing in Gyros to help them make the Revolution(Gyration).

This feature seems like a perfect match for the one secret they have up their sleeve.

 

[GamingGuru]

Maybe my point wasn't clear enough.

I click in here thinking maybe I could possibly read some actual new information concerning the damned thing for once in a blue moon. So I look in and no, he states right out that it's stuff that was posted before. Ok, that's fine, but I wonder how recent it really was. So I search and it turns out this stuff is barely more than 24 hours old.

So we really need a new thread based on stuff that's from a thread which is barely three pages off of the front? All it contains is points which have been discussed previously.

e: I shouldn't talk Valley Girl

There is something you must understand..Nfans are lifers, no matter how crappy of a concept the BIG N comes out with with their gimicky concepts and what not, their fans will still be loyal to the bone. Im not bashing Nintendo at all..i just think alot of what they been doing with DS concept and with the upcoming REV are just terrible terrible idea's.

Its not like i enjoy bashing nintendo...its more of a let down to me because i was really hoping for a change in Nintendo's stance with videogame hardware. Nintendo is no longer a hardware contender..but rather for the niche N fans and youngsters..nothing more, which is sad imho.

Nfans like to rehash news (even spread "make believe" news) in order to make it exciting..nothing wrong with that but this is why you see posts like this

 

[:Motorbass]

this is alot more feasible than holograms. but its still absurd. i would love to be proved wrong, on feedback (and holograms ;( ).

Try the menu from Wario Ware Twisted. Not a strong feedback, but you really feel how it "snaps" into the different slots.

 

[Squeak]

The three problems I see with a gyro enabled controller is:

1: The force feedback gyro can't be very strong with such a narrow case.

2: A gyroscope can only give a twisting force, not linear continuous pushing force.

2: If you want a continues twist, you have to keep turning the gyro, which means the gyro will be mounted inside a small ball with two motors controlling it.
That would take up a lot of room, and a lot of juice from the batteries.

That said, a twisting force could be very useful for 2d movement with the controller, simulating a spring on a stick or bumps on a menu etc., making a second analog completely unnecessary.

 

[citrus lump]

Maybe the gyro is in the anaog stick attachment? It'll give the stick a bit of resistance, like when you try to push a heavy block, or throw a block in football.

If nintendo is packing the analog attachment in, any secret functions could very well lie in that.

 

[R0nn]

Maybe the gyro is in the anaog stick attachment? It'll give the stick a bit of resistance, like when you try to push a heavy block, or throw a block in football.

If nintendo is packing the analog attachment in, any secret functions could very well lie in that.

Nah, I think this technology would be pretty worthless in the analog attachement. It would be much more useful in the Revmote itself. I just wonder how advanced this would be. That would determine in large part how much of an added benefit this would have.

 

[Xrenity]

Try the menu from Wario Ware Twisted. Not a strong feedback, but you really feel how it "snaps" into the different slots.

Cool, I think that would work with RevCon.

Kind of snapping through menu options. Wouldn't let you suddenly choose a wrong option.

 

[elostyle]

If the feedback is as good or better than wario ware twisted then it will be good. The samll resistance made the feel of that game.

 

[Sweedishrodeo]

its called battery life, which i assume would be non existent (for a consumer friendly price) if this type of feedback is implemented. plus the "surprise" is a mic.









and when you hit the home button you are transported to the planet nebular.

 

[Leatherface]

Hope this pans out. That is pretty fucking cool.

 

[elostyle]

I just hope it's not going to use stupid normal batteries >.<

 

[adamsappel]

You are never going to have to wrestle against the Revmote's movement. It will be subtle and only a little different than regular rumble. But, it does add a new element, however small, to gaming, and I'm surprised (well, not really) that the Nintendonts can't even acknowledge that. How is this not an improvement?

 

[sammy]

I'm expecting it to have the feature ---- most current rumble features on controllers now spin on an axis like a gyro, we just don't feel the counterweight the way the controllers are designed for use with both hands.

but if you have a one-handed remote, with 2 rumble-gyros spinning on the center axis, you could easily input that communication.

that would be an awesome thing, seeing as how 'rumble' has had a lot of potential for communication in games - and only a handfull of games have realized the feature.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

Yeah I definitely agree that rumble could and should be used more fully.

Although this doesn't sound like the "Big announcement" that Nintendo has planned.

The only game I have found that uses rumble to such an extent that it wouldnt be the same game without it is Rez.

 

[Cosmozone]

There's been thorough research on haptic feedback for many years now but all I've seen so far is not wireless:

A stylus of some sort attached to an intimidating looking robot arm -> NO WAY
An object to hold in one's hand with attached strings that are pulled by a computer -> NO WAY
A stylus to be used on touchscreens, clearly not applicable for the Revolution.

Also calculating the feedback is quite demanding on computational power and bandwidth for sensorical data. It seems to work really well, though. I've read a hands-on impression somewhere but I didn't find that particular forum post.

Having said that I still hope for a more sophisticated rumble mechanism in the Revolution controller. There's no way it can get near the sensations provided by those lab setups, but still improve on conventional rumble a lot. Too bad all there is now is a mere rumor. I want the last secret to be this, not anything graphics related or a microphone.

 

[koam]

If you guys go to gyration's site, the last model of their gyration was smaller than a cube shaped penny. They've probably made more advances since then.

 

[masud]

I think it will just turn out to be a more advanced rumble feature.

 

[Earthstrike]

A stylus to be used on touchscreens, clearly not applicable for the Revolution.

DS and revolution compatibility.

SAY WHAT!!

P.S haptic feedback would be way too expensive. I highly doubt they'll implement it.

 

[DECK'ARD]

Well in theory (stressing the 'theory' ) if you had 3 mounted gyroscopes, you could produce resistance to movement in all 3 axis - x,y and z. They are just each mounted to spin around a different axis, and would affect movement perpendicular to that axis. The faster they spin, the more resistance you'd get.

Whether they'd produce enough resistance at that size to be worthwhile, and how much they'd drain battery-life, are another thing all together though.

What's more likely is a more sensitive rumble-pack, with a lot more degrees of vibration. So the further you tilted from a point the more vibration you'd feel. That would probably be a decent enough substitute for 'real' force-feedback.

It is an interesting quote from the Nintendo Spain bloke though. And I don't think the rumble feature was implemented for people to try at the TGS unveiling was it? So I wouldn't be surprised if there's more to it than what we're used to currently.

 

[Mama Smurf]

Unless there's something about the Revolution that doens't link to anything else so we couldn't possibly predict it, I don't really see what this unrevealed secret they talk about every so often could be but some sort of resistance.

Having said that, it'll probably turn out to be something stupid like a click on every button or an analogue D pad or something.

 

[Gahiggidy]

I don't believe.

 

[Y2Kev]

They are planning on weighting the gyroscopes with dirt from jupiter. The density should make the controller offer resistance of up to 6,000 tons!

 

[Fallout-NL]

All info in here comes from R0nn (junior) and Waimea. As the first couldn't open a thread, he asked me to.

Everybody seems to kind of read over it, so to NOT let this stuff go under the radar, I'll sum some things up.

I say WTF!?

We've had this old source saying this just before TGS, however, that article was deleted within the hour. Now, what can we do with this stuff?
And for some more:

Sounds frikkin' cool. Also, in Nintendo's first TGS teaser, we saw the old man falling on his back while fishing. Maybe the force he expected was much higer than the actual force, so he fell backwards.

*clang*

Sounds promising enough. It'd better be real.

Not very likely.

Even less likely than those Killzone CG images being real.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

Well in theory (stressing the 'theory' ) if you had 3 mounted gyroscopes, you could produce resistance to movement in all 3 axis - x,y and z. They are just each mounted to spin around a different axis, and would affect movement perpendicular to that axis. The faster they spin, the more resistance you'd get.

Nah sorry Nash you can only produce resistance to tilt this way.

And you only need two gyroscopes in this case.

Although I've never handled anything with 2 gyroscopes in. Would be bizarre to have something resisting all rotation.

 

[MadOdorMachine]

Don't get me wrong, force feedback sounds cool, but I'll be seriously disappointed if that's the other secret about Revolution. I was hoping it was graphics related, but IGN and other sources have said the secret involves the controller. Maybe this is it.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Sounds frikkin' cool. Also, in Nintendo's first TGS teaser, we saw the old man falling on his back while fishing. Maybe the force he expected was much higer than the actual force, so he fell backwards.

I seriously doubt anyone was playing anything during the filming.

 

[Monk]

I have to say that this thread would be in the third or fourth page if it wasnt for the trolls bumping it back up.

 

[Doc Holliday]

I'm a troll now?

 

[Monk]

Not you, i am talking about dog$(+ others) and the defensive nfans. The firt half of this thread is about why trolls should troll these threads. :/

 

[KingJ2002]

imagine pilotwings with tilt resistance... fighting wind currents in the hang glider would be amazing.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

I have to say that this thread would be in the third or fourth page if it wasnt for the trolls bumping it back up.

Do you really?

 

[momolicious]

are you calling nintendo fans trolls?

 

[Monk]

ffs just forget i said anything an let this thread die.

 

[Squeak]

If you guys go to gyration's site, the last model of their gyration was smaller than a cube shaped penny. They've probably made more advances since then.

We need to differentiate between gyroscopes used for motion tracking, which are small energy efficient devices, and gyros used to produce force feedback - relatively large, sucking lots of power to rev up and additional power for control motors.

Well in theory (stressing the 'theory' ) if you had 3 mounted gyroscopes, you could produce resistance to movement in all 3 axis - x,y and z. They are just each mounted to spin around a different axis, and would affect movement perpendicular to that axis.

Only producing passive resistance, like described above is also a possibility, although I thought the comment was about active force (as in jolts being possible even if the controller is held still).
Although the suggested method would be rather expensive power wise, unless the gyros motors had magnetic braking (braking necessary when no resistance is needed) so current is be fed back to the battery when slowing the gyros.
It would be a rather complex design.

 

[Cosmozone]

A stylus to be used on touchscreens, clearly not applicable for the Revolution.

DS and revolution compatibility.

Oh, now that you say it, I see it, too.
You use the Revolution controller as a stylus for the DS. GENIUS!

@Monk: why cut out from the fun? No way man.

 

[Fallout-NL]

But seriously now, a wireless, not fixed item like the rev controlller, producing force feedback. That verges on the perpetual motion, anti gravity drive shit. Its bs, cause if it worked, wouldnt you be able to suspend that thing in thin air?


Thats the kind of shit NASA uses to create perfect ball shapes in f*cking outer space.

 

[sammy]

But seriously now, a wireless, not fixed item like the rev controlller, producing force feedback. That verges on the perpetual motion, anti gravity drive shit. Its bs, cause if it worked, wouldnt you be able to suspend that thing in thin air?


Thats the kind of shit NASA uses to create perfect ball shapes in f*cking outer space.

I doubt they're thinking that powerful ---- more like a form of sensetive 'communication' - a simple nudge.

hold a current-gen controller at one corner by your fingertips, you can feel what direction a spinner is going - and those aren't set up as optomized gyros.

Like say, in the next pilotwings, if you're hangliding and you feel a tiny 'communication' a force going clockwise ---- you'd know there was a thermal to your left and you could bank into it.

 

[Doc Holliday]

But seriously now, a wireless, not fixed item like the rev controlller, producing force feedback. That verges on the perpetual motion, anti gravity drive shit. Its bs, cause if it worked, wouldnt you be able to suspend that thing in thin air?

Somebody poosted this somewhere i forget

http://www.powerballs.com/

.and the faster you spin the inner rotor the more inertia it generates and the more resistance it subsequently inflicts upon the fingers, hands, wrists, arms and shoulders.

Now im not saying rev will have his, im just saying it isn't as impossible as you make it sound to be. We're talking tilt resistence not full feedback.