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[mclem]

'reforge'? From what, into what?

From dystopia into Rapture?

 

[scorcho]

The basic tenet of neo-conservatism is that free democracies don't go to war. As technology increases and weapons become more and more destructive its important all nations in the world with access to said technology are free democracies. Better to deal with countries like Iran and North Korea today than wait as their destructive capability increases.

The argument is that established, stable democracies do not go to war against one another, a point that is more qualified than you let on. the way it's been perversed by neoconservatives as an excuse for wanton military aggression is disgusting.

 

[Hitokage]

Don't worry, TheHeretic, soon our troops will come visiting the southern hemisphere and just maybe you'll get that 51st state designation you dream of.

Freedom is on the march!

 

[spiderman123]

No he fucking DID NOT. Even before he stepped into office, Bush was figuring out ways to overthrow Saddam. :lol

Debatable.......I still thinking the invasion of Iraq and Afghan was form geopolitical move for even longer strategy to invade Iran. Establish dummy government Pro American to secure troops more effectively especially since early Bush Admin they had info that Iran was amassing a nuclear program. Then again this too is Debatable.

 

[Cerebral Assassin]

INC is a strawman, and the Indian Constitution? Is the US a secular country, because by the standards you are proposing it isn't. Keeping throwing out the ad hominem's, typical liberal class.

The Indian constitution says it is a socialist state, it isn't. Hell the Pakistani one gives the fundamental right to practise your religion whatever it is, looking at what the people wanted for their countries decades ago is a worse way of checking the state of a country, than what the people are actually up to.

As for the US even though there is seperation of the church & state legally, I don't think it is particular secular, can you imagine a "out" atheist being elected as President? Bear in mind I live the UK & even though the clergy have a say in one of our Houses of Parliament, it is far more secular than either India or the US.

 

[Chinner]

so how about that trickle down economics? pretty great eh?

 

[Bleepey]

I ain't read all o f this thread but i find it hard to compare Fox new to MSNBDC. MSNBC is liberal well no fucking shit. That's apparent but look at how a conversatoin about MSNBC looks:

Conservative: MSNBC is liberal!
Liberal: Yeah and Fox is conservative. The difference is although MSNBC is liberal where exactly are they lying or contorting the truth? Fox news on the other hand....

 

[scorcho]

actually, the conversation would that be that all media outlets except Fox are liberal, with MSNBC being much worse because it is so OMGINYOFACE liberal, even though Joe Scarborough has a sizable morning block to spread his idiocy.

 

[The Librarian]

- Supporting Barrack Obama as the greatest man on the planet despite his heavy plays into religion, do nothing policies, doing similar things Bush did but being praised instead of scolded, enormous deficits, sleazy politics with the Healthcare bill, and plenty more.

*snickers*

 

[blame space]

so how about that trickle down economics? pretty great eh?

 

[spiderman123]

But from my point of view any news org that disagrees with a majority of conservative policies are classified as liberal......though conservatives have some good ideas ...their main political ideas are hard to agree with so lets say some guy on CNN says this is a bad idea for so and so reason .......( giving actual facts behind for disagreeing) instead of saying " O what reasonable facts." A majority of conservatives immediately plant him and his network as liberal. This door swings both ways though

 

[TheHeretic]

But from my point of view any news org that disagrees with a majority of conservative policies are classified as liberal......though conservatives have some good ideas ...their main political ideas are hard to agree with so lets say some guy on CNN says this is a bad idea for so and so reason .......( giving actual facts behind for disagreeing) instead of saying " O reasonable facts." A majority of conservatives immediately plant him and his network as liberal.

CNN rides the line for the most part, though historically much of news (and Hollywood really) is fairly liberal. I don't really have a problem with that, we all have biases.

I do think Glenn Beck probably fucked over Fox News credibility though I don't think anyone is going to him for the "news", or at least no-one with any hope anyway.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Do you not realize how many countries we fucked over due to us being interventionists? Hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women, and children slaughtered to death because the U.S. didn't like left-wing governments who wanted to nationalize their commodities, institute progressive tax systems, and form unions. So instead, we helped prop right-wing authoritarian dictators who became mass killers. This has been going on since the CIA was still called the OSS.

This. The US has propped up, funded (illegally against its own laws) and supported with active military ("advisors") some awful, undemocratic governments simply because the alternative was not conducive to our corporations doing business in those countries.

There's a reason beyond "jealousy" that anti-American sentiment is so high.

 

[Dead Man]

Evil old white people[IMG][/QUOTE]
:lol :D

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Republicans were typically anti war, the Bush administration campaigned on peace until 9/11, so its not a left/right situation really (though Democrats are still right ring). Yes, the CIA has done terrible things, Iran is a classic example of this, because its short sighted and generally runs itself, destroying many documents to avoid accountability. The CIA after 9/11 should have been shut down with a new agency remade, but Bush didn't have the stones to do that, let alone fire Tenet, and neither does Obama.

When, the 1930s?

 

[TheHeretic]

When, the 1930s?

Which party went into Vietnam, and who ended the war?

 

[spiderman123]

CNN rides the line for the most part, though historically much of news (and Hollywood really) is fairly liberal. I don't really have a problem with that, we all have biases.

I do think Glenn Beck probably fucked over Fox News credibility though I don't think anyone is going to him for the "news", or at least no-one with any hope anyway.

However this is ideologically ignorant on my part......especially since news regardless of what even network should not be polarized or biased. However we def never see something like that in the U.S since though networks like Fox are highly biased they still get immense ratings regardless. Hence all Networks seem to be exploring the same strat.

 

[Barrett2]

Which party went into Vietnam, and who ended the war?

I believe Eisenhower was the Prez who first sent military agents to Vietnam.

 

[Dooraven]

The Indian constitution says it is a socialist state, it isn't. Hell the Pakistani one gives the fundamental right to practise your religion whatever it is, looking at what the people wanted for their countries decades ago is a worse way of checking the state of a country, than what the people are actually up to.

As for the US even though there is seperation of the church & state legally, I don't think it is particular secular, can you imagine a "out" atheist being elected as President? Bear in mind I live the UK & even though the clergy have a say in one of our Houses of Parliament, it is far more secular than either India or the US.

I don't really understand your viewpoint about India to be honest. You point to India and call it a Hindu state which it effectively is but then state that the UK is more secular than India. Both of these points are valid to a good extent as religious oppression in India is unfortunately extremely high and widespread when compared with Britain.

However if you believe that the Government of India (not the people, Rural India is like the southern US) is less secular than the British, how is it that India was able to elect a Muslim into presidency (during Vajapayees BJP regime) and a Sikh as PM yet a Muslim or an Athiest would barley be considered to run for PM?.

EDIT: Okay you could easily say that people voted for the INC instead of Singh. But this doesn't change how the Lok + Raj Sabha voted for APJ

 

[TheHeretic]

However this is ideologically ignorant on my part......especially since news regardless of what even network should not be polarized or biased. However we def never see something like that in the U.S since though networks like Fox are highly biased they still get immense ratings regardless. Hence all Networks seem to be exploring the same strat.

Well as Jon Stewart put it a passionate narrative is simply more interesting to watch than a hard line news operation, perhaps sadly. Bill O'Reilly throwing things at democrats is about as entertaining as any news commentary is going to get.

 

[Hari Seldon]

I'm definitely more conservative than liberal, however I am so sick of all of the corruption and the neocon imperialist bullshit that I don't mind the Dems winning for a while until true conservatives like Ron Paul emerge from the mess. Either way, I'll support any party that takes the US back to its isolationist roots.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

I believe Eisenhower was the Prez who first sent military agents to Vietnam.

Not to mention Nixon didn't end the war right away. He prolonged it before calling it quits.

 

[wave dial]

the right wing was the major reason for the iraq war

 

[TheHeretic]

Not to mention Nixon didn't end the war right away. He prolonged it before calling it quits.

Right, but it takes two (or three if you want to count before the Gulf of Tonkin) to party. Democrats aren't the party of peace, though they certainly look that way now. Hard conservatives like Ron Paul are really the greatest proponents of non intervention.

 

[scorcho]

Not to mention Nixon didn't end the war right away. He prolonged it before calling it quits.

Or, the still unresolved rumors that Nixon and Kissinger sabotaged the 1968 Paris peace accords in order to win the election.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Which party went into Vietnam, and who ended the war?

That equals "anti war"? Nixon was in office for 6 years before ending the war. He escallated the conflict greatly and spread it to Cambodia before eventually pulling out.

The GOP also went to war in Korea and Iraq twice. The GOP supported military intervention in Panama as well.

Not saying the Dems aren't pro-intervention as well, but there's no way you can paint the GOP as anti-war.

Both parties support military intervention. The GOP genrally moreso.

Tell me (seriously)-- how old are you? I'm wondering if this is a failure of education or selective memory.

 

[wave dial]

Republicans were typically anti war, the Bush administration campaigned on peace until 9/11, so its not a left/right situation really (though Democrats are still right ring). Yes, the CIA has done terrible things, Iran is a classic example of this, because its short sighted and generally runs itself, destroying many documents to avoid accountability. The CIA after 9/11 should have been shut down with a new agency remade, but Bush didn't have the stones to do that, let alone fire Tenet, and neither does Obama.

in other words, the bush admin was anti war until a few months into power they changed their mind

 

[Chojin]

I don't get it. Is it really the people in power's thoughts on war that count? Or the people. Republic, something. People... Something...

::me finds average republicans and democrats, right wingers left wingers, and who's for war and who's not for it::

oh

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Or, the still unresolved rumors that Nixon and Kissinger sabotaged the 1968 Paris peace accords in order to win the election.

I pay no heed to that, but the fact is he expanded the war and didn't end it for six years.

I don't see how that equates to being generally "anti-war" as TheHeretic suggests.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

in other words, the bush admin was anti war until a few months into power they changed their mind

There's nothing to suggest they were ever anti-war. As soon as the had public sentiment for armed attack on Iraq, they took it.

 

[gcubed]

one of those golden threads that delivers during the first post

 

[spiderman123]

you got that right.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

The GOP also went to war in Korea and Iraq twice.

Wait, Truman was a Republican?

 

[Cynar]

don't feel like reading the past few pages of garbage, did the OP admit he was a neo-con yet?

 

[Tamanon]

I'm still having a lot of trouble reconciling someone who's anti-big government but pro-interventionism. Are they just anti-big government interfering with THEM?

 

[spiderman123]

don't feel like reading the past few pages of garbage, did the OP admit he was a neo-con yet?

Don't think he knows the difference.

 

[Staccat0]

I'm in no way right wing, but I agree with EDIT: some of the OP.

That said, CNN, MSNBC, FOXN and the rest are all mostly "soft news" for people who hate thinking. They are far too dependent on generating advertising to stick to the facts and instead rely on sensationalism. Cable network news sounds like ESPN anymore with all these fools asking "who won?" and shit like that...

It seems really fucking lame for anyone to argue which one of them is "worse" than another because in reality they are all garbage. The merits of one useless peice of fluff vs. another are fairly meaningless. We have better options.

 

[the_painted_bird]

- Supporting Barrack Obama as the greatest man on the planet despite his heavy plays into religion, do nothing policies, doing similar things Bush did but being praised instead of scolded, enormous deficits, sleazy politics with the Healthcare bill, and plenty more.

C-A-P-I-T-A-L-I-S-M, it's not going anywhere. We're all complacent, including Obama.

- Demonising conservatives as the worst people in the world.

I'll give you this... but you're Australian. American conservatism is different, no?

 

[scorcho]

him and kittonwy should have super awesome foreign US right-wing babies.

 

[Blader]

I'm still having a lot of trouble reconciling someone who's anti-big government but pro-interventionism. Are they just anti-big government interfering with THEM?

I think that's pretty obvious.

 

[wave dial]

I think that's pretty obvious.

...and that would be a double standard

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Wait, Truman was a Republican?

History fail. I thought it started two years later than it did. My point stands that in no way can you classify Republicans as "generally anti-war."

 

[StoOgE]

So wait.. is this like conserva-gafs version of Fox News where they come to hear people reinforce their own opinions instead of having to hear dissenting views?

 

[TheHeretic]

don't feel like reading the past few pages of garbage, did the OP admit he was a neo-con yet?

Yes.

 

[Gilby]

OP; what's more likely, that you're the ONLY one who's right, or everyone else in this thread. I doubt that's going to change your mind, but it's something for you to think about.

 

[TheHeretic]

OP; what's more likely, that you're the ONLY one who's right, or everyone else in this thread. I doubt that's going to change your mind, but it's something for you to think about.

This forum isn't a cross section of politics, but as with most things there aren't clear cut answers, only opinions.

 

[wave dial]

This forum isn't a cross section of politics, but as with most things there aren't clear cut answers, only opinions.

but opinions are supported (or refuted) by facts

 

[TheHeretic]

but opinions are supported (or refuted) by facts

Facts like what?

 

[demon]

Seeing as I'm one of 3 people on here who are actually right wing, heres a laundry list of complaints about the ever popular left that exists with younger generations, especially on this forum:

- Complaining about Fox News, when MSNBC does exactly the same thing, if not worse.

This isn't even subjective. It's fucking quantifiable that Fox News lies more, and lies worse, than the other networks. They're just a giant bullshit factory. All the networks are biased, but there's a difference between bias and flat-out lying. It's a good thing you posted that first; I immediately knew you're someone who can't be taken seriously, and stopped reading there.

 

[spiderman123]

Need more Right Wing points to debate.......GAF RIGHT WINGERS WHERE R U !!!

This isn't even subjective. It's fucking quantifiable that Fox News lies more, and lies worse, than the other networks. They're just a giant bullshit factory. All the networks are biased, but there's a difference between bias and flat-out lying. It's a good thing you posted that first; I immediately knew you're someone who can't be taken seriously, and stopped reading there.

LOL! and ZING!!!