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RogueGAF: Die, succeed, die again, repeat
- Thread starter More_Badass
- Start date
More_Badass
Member
So...any recent or upcoming roguelikes to watch?
Crypt of the NecroDancer?
rohlfinator
Member
Can't wait for this, it was a lot of fun at PAX.
Eldritch is looking promising too, I'm hearing a lot of praise for it.
More_Badass
Member
This looks pretty cool, hadn't heard of it before
I thought this was another Minecraft style game. Going to keep an eye on it now
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
I love the concept, but I'm ashamed that my experience is limited to Toejam & Earl (lol, no really) and recently Tokyo Jungle which was one of my favorites last year.
More_Badass
Member
Bought Tower of Guns and Fancy Skulls in the NotOnSteam sale. Both will be on sale till the October 9th.
You can read my impressions of Tower of Guns and Fancy Skulls on my blog.
And the Tower of Guns thread is here, if you interested or bought the game and want to share impressions
You can read my impressions of Tower of Guns and Fancy Skulls on my blog.
And the Tower of Guns thread is here, if you interested or bought the game and want to share impressions
More_Badass
Member
IGN has a nice article on Spelunky and how randomized levels, permadeath, and high difficulty combine to create a satisfying experience.
http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/10/14/why-spelunky-is-the-root-of-all-evil
---
Also so out of the four FPS roguelikes/lites I played over the last few weeks - Tower of Guns, Fancy Skulls, Eldritch, and Heavy Bullets, I'm enjoying Fancy Skulls. First the abstract visuals give the game its own unique style and makes every new enemy a mysterious presence. You can't predict what a new enemy will do or how it will behave. This alone fosters a cautious tone.
Second the game is slow paced and more strategic. You have limited health, limited ammo, very limited mana, drops for either are rare. Enemies have hard-to-hit weak points that allow you to conserve ammo. You have to reload after a handful of shots and that takes precious time. These variables all combine to create a strategic game where taking the time to aim and smart use of your abilities will keep you alive longer
http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/10/14/why-spelunky-is-the-root-of-all-evil
---
Also so out of the four FPS roguelikes/lites I played over the last few weeks - Tower of Guns, Fancy Skulls, Eldritch, and Heavy Bullets, I'm enjoying Fancy Skulls. First the abstract visuals give the game its own unique style and makes every new enemy a mysterious presence. You can't predict what a new enemy will do or how it will behave. This alone fosters a cautious tone.
Second the game is slow paced and more strategic. You have limited health, limited ammo, very limited mana, drops for either are rare. Enemies have hard-to-hit weak points that allow you to conserve ammo. You have to reload after a handful of shots and that takes precious time. These variables all combine to create a strategic game where taking the time to aim and smart use of your abilities will keep you alive longer
FriedConsole
Banned
Disappointed and thought this would be a discussion about true Rouge-likes. Instead it is the meaningless use of the word today. I don't want to get into a semantics argument but the word just means it is a "hard" game now. When you call Demon Souls a Rouge-like it really doesn't mean anything anymore.
Alex Connolly
Member
Heartily recommend Bionic Dues, on Steam for a song and by the always interesting Arcen Games.
Essentially a mech-based roguelike, Bionic Dues is fast and brutal. Feels a bit like DoomRL in some ways, and while the art and sound direction can be a bit mish-mashy, it has a solid core and lots of customisation.
Cheap as [silicon] chips.
RPS did a nice little Wot I Think on it the other day, highlighting its flaws, but singing its praises.
Essentially a mech-based roguelike, Bionic Dues is fast and brutal. Feels a bit like DoomRL in some ways, and while the art and sound direction can be a bit mish-mashy, it has a solid core and lots of customisation.
Cheap as [silicon] chips.
RPS did a nice little Wot I Think on it the other day, highlighting its flaws, but singing its praises.
More_Badass
Member
Are we having this discussion again? No, Demon's Souls is not a true roguelike. I'd call it a rogue-lite or say it has roguelike-esque elements.
Can't a genre evolve and expand over time? Can't traditional turn-based roguelikes exist beside action roguelikes or games that have roguelike aspects? If people can't discuss this stuff, maybe that's why this thread continues to die.
This thread isn't just to discuss true roguelikes. It's to discuss all aspects of the genre, from what makes a roguelike to their rogue-"lite" brethren to its evolution over the years.
Kudos for starting the thread! But yeah, it's been a bit frustrating to read. There's a great discussion going on over at Steam about Nuclear Throne. To me turn-based gameplay is a key element and Energist summarizes it there better than I could.
Lately the debate seems to always break down into two camps: one who want the term to "evolve" and another who see the tag "roguelike" and expect turn-based gameplay.
Binding of Isaac gets thrown out there a lot, and this thread has a few Shiren the Wanderer fans, but when you play the two games you'll see they're completely different. I'd argue that Shiren is a roguelike and Binding is a Robotron-like (i.e. a dual-stick shooter).
FWIW, I posted a link to my own roguelike game up-thread (inspired by Shiren) but the response has been mostly crickets.
More_Badass
Member
See, Demon's Souls introduced me to hard games and the basic foundations that make roguelikes appealing, such as playing cautiously and defensively, and the idea of losing your hard-earned progress. My first roguelike (yes it's a roguelike!) was Teleglitch and I've branched out and played a multitude of different games in the genre, from Spelunky and Towerclimb to Dungeons of Dredmor and Sword of the Stars: The Pit to the aftermentioned Fancy Skulls
I guess I never saw the roguelike as confined to a single established form so yeah it does get frustrating to have the same debate over and over again. But I'll do my best to keep this thread at least clinging to life
Have you played Shiren the Wanderer? If not, definitely give it a try, either the revamped and expanded DS version or the fan translated SNES version.
...I thought it might be more constructive to reply in the related thread rather than continuing to derail IG. 
Admittedly the "definition" is pretty loose—but there's a limit to how far it can be stretched. Referring to a shovel as "rake-like" because both have handles of similar length isn't particularly helpful when I'm looking for a new rake.
...Have you ever played Rogue? I think you should do that. If you're more familiar with the genre's origin point, it might help you understand why asshole "purists" like me complain.
(Having said that, Nethack might be a better choice...what with the centralized hub and many regularly-maintained builds for loads of different operating systems.)
On a slightly tangential note: because "roguelike" has pretty much been stretched beyond all recognition outside of certain circles (kind of like how "literally" has been stretched so far that it's now synonymous with "figuratively") we should strive to do better than just slapping on a "roguelike/lite/ish/esque" label on when describing a game. Because that ends up telling potential players almost nothing about what said game could be like.
Example: "Tower of Guns is an FPS that has randomly-generated levels, powerups and enemies—plus permadeath!" Isn't that more informative than "rogue-like-ish-y"?
...This describes pretty much any game that is difficult and punishes mistakes severely, from Wizardry IV to Gradius III. And I don't see the harm in indicating that a game of that sort was your gateway into roguelikes/lites. But calling any game that is difficult and punishing a roguelike is misleading/confusing, and that's why objections result.
Admittedly the "definition" is pretty loose—but there's a limit to how far it can be stretched. Referring to a shovel as "rake-like" because both have handles of similar length isn't particularly helpful when I'm looking for a new rake.
...Have you ever played Rogue? I think you should do that. If you're more familiar with the genre's origin point, it might help you understand why asshole "purists" like me complain.
(Having said that, Nethack might be a better choice...what with the centralized hub and many regularly-maintained builds for loads of different operating systems.)
On a slightly tangential note: because "roguelike" has pretty much been stretched beyond all recognition outside of certain circles (kind of like how "literally" has been stretched so far that it's now synonymous with "figuratively") we should strive to do better than just slapping on a "roguelike/lite/ish/esque" label on when describing a game. Because that ends up telling potential players almost nothing about what said game could be like.
Example: "Tower of Guns is an FPS that has randomly-generated levels, powerups and enemies—plus permadeath!" Isn't that more informative than "rogue-like-ish-y"?
dakeedskee
Banned
On PS2 there were a few good ones.
Rogue Hearts Dungeon.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRycPVBByaE
It's very much like Powder (the homebrew game: http://www.zincland.com/powder/ ), really. There was another similar rogue-like jap release for ps2, that allowed realtime swap to ascii. Totally forgot the name!
Baroque was another good one on PS2, although it has first person view.
If you still sport a Tapwave Zodiac II (I do, lol) then this guy has some wonderful ports:
http://www.retrobits.net/palmos/angband.shtml
http://www.retrobits.net/palmos/nethack.shtml
Rogue Hearts Dungeon.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRycPVBByaE
It's very much like Powder (the homebrew game: http://www.zincland.com/powder/ ), really. There was another similar rogue-like jap release for ps2, that allowed realtime swap to ascii. Totally forgot the name!
Baroque was another good one on PS2, although it has first person view.
If you still sport a Tapwave Zodiac II (I do, lol) then this guy has some wonderful ports:
http://www.retrobits.net/palmos/angband.shtml
http://www.retrobits.net/palmos/nethack.shtml
In my opinion, Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup is the greatest roguelike and probably my most played game of all time. Even though I suck hard at it.
I really do think the term 'roguelike' is being both overused and misused recently. To me, I only consider turn-based games with permadeath and random elements to be a roguelike. Spelunky is more like a platforming action game with a few roguelike elements chucked in. Amazing game though!
I really do think the term 'roguelike' is being both overused and misused recently. To me, I only consider turn-based games with permadeath and random elements to be a roguelike. Spelunky is more like a platforming action game with a few roguelike elements chucked in. Amazing game though!
More_Badass
Member
Sure thingThank you OP for the Teleglitch recommendation i would have missed this little gem if it wasnt for this thread
Talk about oozing atmosphere, im off to change my pants now.
Nice to see the thread working as intended. Good luck, you'll need itGlad you mentioned powder. I put a lot of hours into this one on my DS with a flash cart. It still is fun and has some unique aspects that kept me coming back.
I love roguelikes for their replayability and the glory of turn based play that allows me to walk away from the game at any time and come back to it just where I left it.
I have enjoyed ToME, DCSS, nethack, dredmore, and others and find myself preferring graphical roguelikes a bit more than text. One day I will get the nerve up to try DF adventure mode
More_Badass
Member
Finally got NEO Scavenger, it's really good. Very intense and has a huge amount of depth
I wanted to play Omega so badly that I decided to port it to the Acorn Archimedes. And when I had problems with the curses library on that platform, I wrote my own curses library which worked exactly well enough to run Omega.
As a result I got very good at the game - nothing helps like having access to the source code, especially in a game that's as broken as Omega... Plenty of neat secrets to be abused in there.
So doomlike games should be like Doom. And roguelike games should be like Rogue...
So... what does that make this?
Other than, you know, fifty shades of awesome...
More_Badass
Member
NEO Scavenger is now my new obsession. This game is one of the best "story generators" I've played. Every encounter feels as desperate and brutal as something written by Cormac McCarthy. And there's a thread for the game if you want to discuss there.
Nothing's more terrifying for an early player than to end a turn...only for a dogman to enter your hex. Especially when you just barely escaped from bandits, you're bleeding and wounded, and you're down to a glass shard and fists. The dogman as still a distance away but it was day and there was little cover. I tried to retreat stealthily but the beast noticed me and charged. My stealthy retreat turned into a desperate sprint but I was tired and the terrain was treacherous.
Precious moments were wasted when I tripped in the undergrowth and before I knew it, the dogman was on me. I tried to roll out of the way of its savage attacks but its claws still tore at my flesh. Bleeding and coughing blood, I stood and drew my glass shard. We charged at each other.
I ducked beneath the dogman's attack and lunged for a killing blow as it staggered.
The glass shard shattered in my hand
I survived for a day and 3 hours
Nothing's more terrifying for an early player than to end a turn...only for a dogman to enter your hex. Especially when you just barely escaped from bandits, you're bleeding and wounded, and you're down to a glass shard and fists. The dogman as still a distance away but it was day and there was little cover. I tried to retreat stealthily but the beast noticed me and charged. My stealthy retreat turned into a desperate sprint but I was tired and the terrain was treacherous.
Precious moments were wasted when I tripped in the undergrowth and before I knew it, the dogman was on me. I tried to roll out of the way of its savage attacks but its claws still tore at my flesh. Bleeding and coughing blood, I stood and drew my glass shard. We charged at each other.
I ducked beneath the dogman's attack and lunged for a killing blow as it staggered.
The glass shard shattered in my hand
I survived for a day and 3 hours
not psycho
Member
Maybe I'm missing something, but not only does Rogue Legacy not seem like a rogue-lite to me (let alone a Rogue-like), it also seems to have a completely broken and unfun design.
The core of the game is permanent progress. When you start off, the game is very hard, but not necessarily in a fun way (meaning if you go to some areas the enemies take an insane number of hits, leading to boredom even if you find a safe method of hitting them). Then it becomes easy when you get permanent upgrades (such as killing enemies in very few hits). The permanent upgrade tree is huge, meaning the game is prepared to offer you a long, boring grind.
You can lock down the castle design if you want. That alone probably disqualifies it. What ends up happening is that you'll find things in the castle that you literally have no way of doing because you don't have the right equips/spells/traits. Usually there is no improvisation or cleverness involved (small holes, you have to be small, enemies behind wall, you need a spell that aims in that direction, no way around it). It's just "you don't have the right stuff, but you can restart, lock it down and come back!" That's terrible design. It is never, ever difficult to get back to the area in question, so it amounts to a pure, boring, needless grind.
Most of the randomization of the character is only for show. Your character is bald, or sees only black and white. These add nothing to the gameplay, provide hardly any real variety, and no basis for improvisation or learning. They just distract from the the fact that the game is a grindathon.
I found the design to be not only awful, but vaguely insulting. Like we're not supposed to realize this is a permanent progress grindathon, with a limited configuration of rooms which you can even lock down if you want, because of the shallow "roguelike" elements. The name of the game itself seems like a marketing trick.
Decent gameplay at times though, ruined by a painfully dischordant game design.
The core of the game is permanent progress. When you start off, the game is very hard, but not necessarily in a fun way (meaning if you go to some areas the enemies take an insane number of hits, leading to boredom even if you find a safe method of hitting them). Then it becomes easy when you get permanent upgrades (such as killing enemies in very few hits). The permanent upgrade tree is huge, meaning the game is prepared to offer you a long, boring grind.
You can lock down the castle design if you want. That alone probably disqualifies it. What ends up happening is that you'll find things in the castle that you literally have no way of doing because you don't have the right equips/spells/traits. Usually there is no improvisation or cleverness involved (small holes, you have to be small, enemies behind wall, you need a spell that aims in that direction, no way around it). It's just "you don't have the right stuff, but you can restart, lock it down and come back!" That's terrible design. It is never, ever difficult to get back to the area in question, so it amounts to a pure, boring, needless grind.
Most of the randomization of the character is only for show. Your character is bald, or sees only black and white. These add nothing to the gameplay, provide hardly any real variety, and no basis for improvisation or learning. They just distract from the the fact that the game is a grindathon.
I found the design to be not only awful, but vaguely insulting. Like we're not supposed to realize this is a permanent progress grindathon, with a limited configuration of rooms which you can even lock down if you want, because of the shallow "roguelike" elements. The name of the game itself seems like a marketing trick.
Decent gameplay at times though, ruined by a painfully dischordant game design.
It baffles me how "roguelike" has become such a trendy tag in the past year or so. Usually when a term gets co-opted, it's because it had some fashionable connotation that people want to jump on the bandwagon with. However, "roguelike" was anything but fashionable, having only cult appeal.
Now it's slapped on wildly different games, many of which aren't remotely roguelike. Quite possibly it was Binding of Isaac (a dual stick shooter) that started all the misappropriation of the term. Edmund McMillen is cool, Binding of Isaac is fun, he calls it a roguelike, therefore I'll call my FPS/platformer/space sim/top-down shooter/beat-em-up a roguelike game, because I want to be cool, too.
But this is More_Badass'es thread and he wants the more inclusive definition, so I'll respect his wishes. It's a shame Shiren wasn't released on the PC -- that would go a long way toward clearing up what a good roguelike game looks like.
And to be a little more constructive than my last rant -- on the subject of Shiren the Wanderer, a fellow Shiren fanatic recently pointed out a cool YouTube channel with some Let's Plays:
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheBlackLooper/videos
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheBlackLooper/videos
More_Badass
Member
Well yes, I wanted a thread where all aspects of the roguelike could be discussed, from the distinction between different roguelikes to stuff like you're talking about. I didn't want to narrow the focus to just a specific kind of roguelike or lite or whatever, because that would just reduce the appeal of the thread more than it already is, being a thread about a pretty niche genre.
So good job, my thread is working as intending. Discussions like that will keep this thread alive
Approaching Infinity (sci-fi themed roguelike) looks promising:
"Explore an infinite procedurally generated universe, alive with memorable alien races, fantastic technologies, and deadly monsters!"
It's playable now and has a Kickstarter running.
Permadeath, turn-based and cool pixel art.
"Explore an infinite procedurally generated universe, alive with memorable alien races, fantastic technologies, and deadly monsters!"
It's playable now and has a Kickstarter running.
Permadeath, turn-based and cool pixel art.
EdwardTivrusky
Member
I've been playing the ChaosForge Roguelikes for years now as they have a different take on the traditional rogues. They've released Doom, Aliens & Diablo to my knowledge and this thread bump has reminded me i need to check them again for updates.
Have a look at the Chaosforge site, it's neat. I'd link it but the main site is down at the moment.
Diablo Roguelike
Alien Roguelike
Doom Roguelike
Have a look at the Chaosforge site, it's neat. I'd link it but the main site is down at the moment.
Diablo Roguelike
Alien Roguelike
Doom Roguelike
vagabondarts
Member
Came to this thread to share the love for brogue but I see it's already been done.
Amazing game that I'm having a blast with.
Their official forums let everyone play on the same map seed and compete every week to see who gets the best score.
I still can't get past floor 7 so I don't know how I will ever begin to measure up. It sure is fun though.
Amazing game that I'm having a blast with.
Their official forums let everyone play on the same map seed and compete every week to see who gets the best score.
I still can't get past floor 7 so I don't know how I will ever begin to measure up. It sure is fun though.
More_Badass
Member
Would Dwarf Fortress be considered a roguelike? Thinking it's time I give it a try
More_Badass
Member
The New Yorker on roguelikes:
VIDEO GAMES THAT EMBRACE IRONY AND DEATH
VIDEO GAMES THAT EMBRACE IRONY AND DEATH
rockmanjoe
Member
I'm currently playing this and I agree. This game barely has any roguelike elements, if any. The fact that there's zero penalty for dying makes it into nothing more than a simple metroidvania game where you just endlessly hack away at enemies. I haven't even bothered locking down the castle. Every death I just shrug it off, pick another spelunker, buy upgrades, kill more enemies, rinse and repeat. Granted, I'm still having fun with it most likely due to my love for platformers, but I wish it weren't so shallow and grindy.
Luckily I recently got Spelunky for my platformer roguelike/lite fix. Now this game is amazing. Combines two of my favorite genres perfectly. Great for platformer fans like me who love skill-based platforming gameplay and the roguelike mechanics are perfectly implemented. Just about anything can happen in a run, sometimes wihout your control. Enemies, shopkeepers and traps hazards can interact with one another sometimes leading to hilarious moments (sometimes including your death) Decision making and strategy are important and the more I die the more I feel I improve. Hey, just like actual roguelikes! Then there's all the secrets and hidden levels to discover. I feel like I will be playing this game for a long time. Then there's the daily challenge, which is such a genius way of creating a competitive game mode. I recommend this game to anyone who hasn't tried it and loves platformers or roguelikes.