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Rottenwatch: THE DARK KNIGHT
- Thread starter SCULLIBUNDO
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Oh! My Car!
Member
That's what I thought! Going back to see this again tomorrow to convert more non-believers, the one I went with tonight was shitting bricks, literally.Amir0x said:
Like I said before, my literal first reaction upon exiting THE DARK KNIGHT is "they can NEVER make another Batman again. I hope so much they don't try, it ended so perfectly here."
I don't really think it's hyperbole to say it's an impossibility that any other director or scriptwriter will ever come upon such a firm grasp of these characters and exploit what makes them most interesting as spectacularly again.
And that's before we even consider the ghost of Heath Ledger and the monumental shadow he now casts on the future franchise, because it's going to be so fucking ridiculously impossible to try to top DARK KNIGHT without the possibility of its most hallowed villain coming back. Especially as Heath Ledger played him.
I don't really think it's hyperbole to say it's an impossibility that any other director or scriptwriter will ever come upon such a firm grasp of these characters and exploit what makes them most interesting as spectacularly again.
And that's before we even consider the ghost of Heath Ledger and the monumental shadow he now casts on the future franchise, because it's going to be so fucking ridiculously impossible to try to top DARK KNIGHT without the possibility of its most hallowed villain coming back. Especially as Heath Ledger played him.
Amir0x said:
Sure they can. Lets keep in mind that:
- TDK does have flaws. They are almost drowned out by how awesome 95% of everything else is, but they do exist.
- we're all still in the euphoric "shiney new toy" stage. Something tells me that in a year from now, much like the water vaporizer crap/bad action scenes/mediocre third act from BB eventually stopped being ignored, things like the sonar stuff will not be given a free pass like we are mostly giving it now.
If anything, this is encouraging, though. People thought BB couldnt be topped, and TDK blew it out of the water. TDK has areas that can be improved upon, and if WB gives the Nolan Bros/Goyer the time/space to fine tune whatever the next film will be, then there is no reason that TDK cannot be trumped.
No they can never top this, I thought my post was pretty clear on my opinion. And I didn't think Begins couldn't be topped, so I don't know who "people" are. I am me, and I thought Begins was rad but they had PLENTY of room to go up. They have no room to go up, because they have explored these characters and these themes as best anyone can conceivably want in relation to a comicbook superhero named BATMAN.
Every movie has flaws, there's not a single perfect movie on Earth. And I'm quite sure there never will be. So saying 'it has flaws' is probably not the best reason to defend why it can be topped.
This has nothing to do with new toy bullshit or whatever other random way people have to try to dismiss what DARK KNIGHT has achieved, regardless of if you liked the film or not.
With DARK KNIGHT you have the greatest Batman villain ever played to its absolute maximum by a now dead actor, with a script that explores the most fundamental aspects of the character in ways that can absolutely never be equaled. And you have likewise core explorations of the Batman mythos in pitch perfect ways. This sort of combination will never come again in the Batman universe, because the way Nolan handled it will never be topped. Guaranteed.
I would also like to make clear here that while I am heaping this praise on DARK KNIGHT, it is specifically in regards to BATMAN movies. I am sure, for example, they can make a much better Spiderman movie than the ones out, or a much MUCH better Incredible Hulk movie than the ones we have.
Every movie has flaws, there's not a single perfect movie on Earth. And I'm quite sure there never will be. So saying 'it has flaws' is probably not the best reason to defend why it can be topped.
This has nothing to do with new toy bullshit or whatever other random way people have to try to dismiss what DARK KNIGHT has achieved, regardless of if you liked the film or not.
With DARK KNIGHT you have the greatest Batman villain ever played to its absolute maximum by a now dead actor, with a script that explores the most fundamental aspects of the character in ways that can absolutely never be equaled. And you have likewise core explorations of the Batman mythos in pitch perfect ways. This sort of combination will never come again in the Batman universe, because the way Nolan handled it will never be topped. Guaranteed.
I would also like to make clear here that while I am heaping this praise on DARK KNIGHT, it is specifically in regards to BATMAN movies. I am sure, for example, they can make a much better Spiderman movie than the ones out, or a much MUCH better Incredible Hulk movie than the ones we have.
The Librarian
Banned
Amir0x they can top this because I say so.
Dude, chill out. Im one of the biggest TDK supporters (hell, Ive done a 180 on the film from pre to post release), and am hardly trying to downplay anything. Im just saying that you are being incredibly close-minded if you think this can't be topped.
Same crew + two Batman films now under their belt + time and resources to churn out the best script possible = no reason to believe that Nolan et al cant outdo themselves again.
Same crew + two Batman films now under their belt + time and resources to churn out the best script possible = no reason to believe that Nolan et al cant outdo themselves again.
well that's cool you're entitled to think that. But it won't be, and DARK KNIGHT will forever go down as the greatest movie to handle the Batman character. I'm pretty happy with what we got.
I am sure we'll get a third movie and it may even be good, but I'm likewise positive it won't be as good. I hope you bookmark this post for prescience.
I am sure we'll get a third movie and it may even be good, but I'm likewise positive it won't be as good. I hope you bookmark this post for prescience.
The only legitimate reason to fear BB3 would go astray is if WB pulled some Sony/S-M3-esque shit and tampered with Nolan's vision, which I dont think is going to happen. WB and Nolan seem to have a better relationship.
BB3, provided its still the same cast and crew, will top TDK. Feel free to bookmark this post for my clairvoyance.
BB3, provided its still the same cast and crew, will top TDK. Feel free to bookmark this post for my clairvoyance.
AlternativeUlster
Absolutely pathetic part deux
The fourth Batman film that Nolan wiil do will be the best. I know.
The Librarian
Banned
Don't put anything past him or he'll come to your house at night and eat you.woodchuck said:
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
After seeing it three times I noticed that in some scenes when Bale is doing the Batman voice he seems to lisp sometimes. Did anybody else pick up on that?
I don't think BB3 will go "astray", I feel it will simply not top Dark Knight. Because it won't, as the themes and characters have been explored as best as humanly possible and because Batman's most compelling villains are now
. What is left is varying future possibilities which may or may not be totally cool. But they just won't be better than Dark Knight, as it's factually impossible. Also BB3 cannot be the "same cast and crew", to use your commentary, since Heath Ledger is dead and
.
Also if anyone actually believes for a second that there's some form of caring involved outside of the minute or so it takes to type up these responses I have some cocaine to sell ya!
no longer an option
Two Face is dead
Also if anyone actually believes for a second that there's some form of caring involved outside of the minute or so it takes to type up these responses I have some cocaine to sell ya!
The Librarian
Banned
There is still the Riddler! And from what I remember of the cartoons I use to watch, I liked him as much as the Joker.
The Hermit
Member
Oh! My Car! said:
Poor guy
Anyway, I don´t think it cannot be toped , but I understand Amir0x.
The Joker is the definitive enemy of Batman, the actor who played him has done in such a way that TDK Joker´s in the list of the greatest villains with Darth Vader and Hannibal Lecter.
And that actor is unfortunately dead.
If he was alive, the hype of the next movie would be off the charts, but ,instead, we are discussing who will be the next villain and therefore ,whatever it is , it will be inferior to the Joker.
It will be one hell of challenge to top or even equate the quality of this movie. It can be done, but it´s VERY unlikely.
People like to focus on Heath Ledger - and there's no surprise why - but Gary Oldman and Aaron Eckhart need to similarly be commended. They were both fucking incredible. Man what a cast. Such a shame.
Christian Bale as BATMAN is the only character i feel REALLY needs to be improved from an acting perspective. I love Christian Bale so it's odd to me that he's the thing I keep consistently liking the least! (outside of Katie Holmes, *Shudder*)
Christian Bale as BATMAN is the only character i feel REALLY needs to be improved from an acting perspective. I love Christian Bale so it's odd to me that he's the thing I keep consistently liking the least! (outside of Katie Holmes, *Shudder*)
Amir0x said:
Yes. Especially on Gary Oldman, since Eckhart seems to be getting most of the "this guy gave a great performance too!" praise.
I think Oldman overall was much better this time. I think it had to do with more screentime and less stupid lines ("Oh I gotta get me one-a those!" and, well, pretty much everything involving him and the tumbler). Though I think his interaction with young Bruce still stands out as my favorite scene with him in the two movies.
Amir0x said:
The only villain certifiably gone is
Two Face, so its not like they've burned through all the decent ones. And whether or not you agree with it, Joker can be recast and reused. And the more I think about it, the more I think he should be. Batman's greatest villain is too important to sideline because of Ledger's untimely demise. The character existed before Heath, and will live on beyond him.
As for the cast and I crew, I was mostly meaning the key creative peeps, plus the principle actors. Villains generally arent extended a three picture deal.
AniHawk said:
Heh. I do think Gary Oldman's performance was better than Eckhart's, and almost at Ledger's level.
There's a lot of nuance to it, but because he has so much screen time he's got a lot of chance to develop what the character is going through.
I liked most how fucking incredibly Gary Oldman captured Gordon's level of anxiety as things increasingly escalated out of hand. You could almost see him tear himself apart in his mind as he races for a way to fix what is more and more a runaway train. MAJOR SPOILERS:
The scene at the end where he is telling his boy it's going to be OK was fucking emotional. But to me I got most caught up when he points his gun at Batman and frantically tries to stop him yelling "YOU CAN'T GO! WE HAVE TO SAVE HARVEY! I... have to save Harvey!" The way his voice sort of broke when he said it, you realize the emotional redemption of the character rests entirely on how much guilt he feels and that saving Harvey Dent was the only way he could have ever fixed it. And it's an impossibility now.
GOD the movie was so good.
Solo said:
I think most Batman villains are awful, and even less are even remotely qualified to be in the NOLAN version of the Batman universe. Sure there are a handful left that could plausibly enter into the running for a sequel. It's just that none of them are as compelling as Joker or close, so it's yet another blip in the ability for any sequel to top DARK KNIGHT.
Solo said:
Now here's the perfect way to ensure the third movie never tops the DARK KNIGHT!
The Hermit
Member
Yeah, the second time I watched I noticed Eckhart´s work and he´s perfect. The interrogation scene ( I WOUDN`T?!) had me :O
And Gary Oldman IS Gordon. I loved him since the first movie, so that´s no surprise.
That
scene is fucking incredible. I can´t believe there are so many people thinking that this act brought the movie down...
And Gary Oldman IS Gordon. I loved him since the first movie, so that´s no surprise.
Amir0x said:
That
Batman vs Gordon
Cool Hand Luke
Banned
I disagree with everything.
Yeah like I said, though people don't seem to enjoy nuanced readings of people's opinions, I am not saying a third BATMAN film will be bad. NOLAN and his team ensures they will at least make something good. The discussion is only whether it could TOP the Dark Knight (and why it won't because that's impossible goddamn Dark Knight is so good) 
DMczaf said:
Exactly. As long as there is a worthwhile journey for the characters of Bruce/Batman to take, then keep em coming. I find it silly to just throw the baby out with the bathwater like Ami seems to be doing.
Sam Raimi actually had a great take on this (before the disaster of S-M3, obviously). For S-M2, they carved out Parker's character arc, then chose the villain who they thought best matched with it. Much better than doing things the opposite way, which often happens.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
While he's making Batman history, Nolan and Goyer should just come up with their own villain to fit the universe, rather than trying to shoehorn some established villain in.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
If they do The Dark Knight Returns then there won't be any more Michael Caine
I certainly think they can top this film. For as much as I love Dark Knight, there's still a lot to potentially cover in a 3rd film. What frankly excites me most about a 3rd film is bringing it back to Bruce Wayne's struggle with his creation of Batman and having to win the hearts of minds of Gotham's citizens again.
For as much as I absolutely loved Ledger with Joker tearing through the whole film, the fact people are so concerned about the next villians strikes me as backward thinking since that doesn't need to be what the core story is about.
For as much as I absolutely loved Ledger with Joker tearing through the whole film, the fact people are so concerned about the next villians strikes me as backward thinking since that doesn't need to be what the core story is about.
Scullibundo said:If they do The Dark Knight Returns then there won't be any more Michael Caine
Michael Caine could PLAY Batman in TDKR.
master15 said:
Bingo, we have a winner! This is what I should have said in the first place.
Shorty said:
Goyer and the Nolans have already talked about what themes they will tackle in it, the principle cast is signed for one more potential film, and TDK is making boatloads of cash and getting great reviews. There will be another.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
I just remembered a great Joker part that I don't think anybody has mentioned.
When Gordon asks him where Dent is and then Joker says 'I don't know...I've been here the whole time..' *holds up hand-cuffed wrists* '...who did YOU leave him with?' and then he gives this great little accusing eye. It was fucking awesome.
When Gordon asks him where Dent is and then Joker says 'I don't know...I've been here the whole time..' *holds up hand-cuffed wrists* '...who did YOU leave him with?' and then he gives this great little accusing eye. It was fucking awesome.
godhandiscen
There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.
Do you guys really want a BB3? Why? All of you will bitch at the quality of it. Seriously, the Batman movies are over now for at least a decade or more. As Amir0x said, nothing will be able to top this, and its in great part because there is no other villain as good as the Joker.
godhandiscen said:
Well from a financial stand point of view, if you think the Batman films are over for at least a decade you're in for a foul surprise.
Frankly I think most will agree, when the inevitable sequel does get moving we all hope Nolan will be back on board and find a story and concept he is passionate about doing. However the biggest hurdle for me in wanting a third film is whether or not there is scope for a new film. I've mentioned this to death but the ending of Dark Knight leaves a huge gap in terms of bridging and putting Bruce at the forefront of things.
What people I think are miss-understanding are trying to think of a Villain who can match Joker's presence, but the film doesn't potentially need a villain of his stature. I mean I could possibly see a big chunk of the film being solely dedicated to Bruce's struggles with the Batman character and trying to make sense of his creation post Joker.
Of course only Nolan and Goyer really know the direction which they may head down...
Amir0x said:
I agree. Gordon was my second favorite performance in the film. I love when he's looking around for a chair awkwardly in the room with Dent early in the film. I don't know why, but it's such an awesome little tick about the character. And the bits you named. Behind him I thought Michael Caine was right there. He's such an important part of these films, along with Gordon. Then Eckhart.
He was great, especially as Harvey. I felt like a few moments he was too caricatured and flamboyant with his face. Namely after the turn. But then it's hard to judge a performance that's half his face, half a cgi performance. I still thought he was great, and slipped right back into a compelling performance outside a second here and there.
I actually wouldn't mind more Bruce Wayne in these films. Bale is great in his scenes with Alfred, playing Bruce himself. Or playing his public Bruce Wayne persona.
Amir0x said:
God, that's such a terrible statement. I agree not many fit in Nolan's universe in a compelling adaptable manner, but Batman has the greatest villains in comic books. Bar none. TAS should be enough to show you that.
DMczaf said:
I agree. I think it will take Nolan awhile to reload though, and consider a 3rd film. His brother's said it already, that he won't go ahead unless he believes can top himself. No clue how long it could take for a story to develop. I believe it was Goyer push that led Nolan to do TDK. Nolan just had an input, and allowed Jonathan to write a script up.
master15 said:
Yeah, there's no way Warner Bros. will allow very much time to go by before forcing a sequel, no matter who makes it. Does anyone seriously believe that WB executives can look at The Dark Knight's numbers and not milk it for all its worth? Even if the sequel only takes in half TDK's haul it'll be a winner.
J2 Cool said:
Agreed totally. Bale rocks as Wayne, both in private (the "real" Bruce, with Alfred and Rachel) and in public (the playboy/smug Bruce, with everyone else), and as Batman, his voice really grates. Hell, Ive said for a few years now that BB is a much better film before Bruce dons the cape and cowl.
EDIT: I dont believe Reese for a second as the Riddler - not famous enough casting for these films.
I agree that a third film with a more intimate focus on the character of Bruce Wayne is the way to go. One of the few flaws of TDK is how little time is spent developing Bruce Wayne (especially considering how much the events of this film affect him and change his life forever), but this could be amended with a third film.
Honestly it would make Batman Begins and BB3 feel like book ends, with TDK being the film that was much larger in scope. Who knows whether or not a third film could top TDK (it wouldn't be easy), but I definitely feel like there is more story to tell.
Honestly it would make Batman Begins and BB3 feel like book ends, with TDK being the film that was much larger in scope. Who knows whether or not a third film could top TDK (it wouldn't be easy), but I definitely feel like there is more story to tell.
J2 Cool said:
I agree for more Bruce Wayne, especially if Batman is now confined to Bat Growl.
J2 Cool said:
I don't agree with this statement at all. I think most of Batman's villains are really simplistic caricatures with vaguely compelling themes and methods of attack. I mean maybe it's because I don't judge my comic books by the rusty standards DC and Marvel have set with their trademark characters, but I define my villains at a considerably higher level than Penguin, Riddler or Catwoman. Or Scarface. Or Bane. Or *shudder* Clock King. Or whoever-the-fuck is left for them to use.
But judging from your comments, you apparently think TAS proved these characters are super deep or something. Different strokes, different opinions etc
I like TAS too!
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