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Rottenwatch: WATCHMEN

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DevelopmentArrested said:
that review is garbage
he claims to love the entire movie to death until the last 10 minutes.

Because if you have an amazing 3 course meal then your final profiter roll isn't filled with delicious cream; but shit instead, it's still an amazing meal, right?

Where one could argue Ebert's review only bestows such praise upon the film because the critics ignorant mindset prevents him from understanding the messages and themes of original graphic novel given he sees the medium as beneath him (and cinema). He's praising a man for climbing Ranier when he should of scaled Everest.
 
polyh3dron said:
Massawyrm's whole review can be boiled down to
"THERE'S NO SQUID WAAHHHHH I HATE THIS MOVIE"

You didn't even read the review did you? Allow me to quote "But, for me, it doesn’t excuse what he did to the ending. What, Wyrm? You mean the squid? No, not the god damned squid." His whole point was that they changed the meaning of the work, made it less impaction and hence made it worst.
 
Spirit of Jazz said:
Because if you have an amazing 3 course meal then your final profiter roll isn't filled with delicious cream; but shit instead, it's still an amazing meal, right?

Where one could argue Ebert's review only bestows such praise upon the film because the critics ignorant mindset prevents him from understanding the messages and themes of original graphic novel given he sees the medium as beneath him (and cinema). He's praising a man for climbing Ranier when he should of scaled Everest.
"profiter roll"?
 
Yes I read Massawyrm's entire review and I still stand by my post. There's no way they could have fit in all of the foreshadowing elements that made the GN's ending make sense. He wants you to think that's not why he's shitting on the movie, but it really is.

Snyder decided that the running time would be better spent by developing the characters as opposed to spending an exorbitant amount of time building up the GN's ending. Had he gone the other way we'd all bitch about many of our favorite moments being cut out. It's a compromise but it was a necessary one.
 
Spirit of Jazz said:
Because if you have an amazing 3 course meal then your final profiter roll isn't filled with delicious cream; but shit instead, it's still an amazing meal, right?

Where one could argue Ebert's review only bestows such praise upon the film because the critic's ignorant mindset prevents him from understanding the messages and themes of original graphic novel given he sees the medium as beneath him (and cinema). He's praising a man for climbing Ranier when he should of scaled Everest.


Ebert is a big nerd like all of us. He was one of the first Mainstream reviewers to recommend Anime to people, so I don't think graphic novels are beneath him.

Or are you one of those assholes who can't stand Ebert because he refuses to recognize videogames as art?

Why don't you go ahead and keep sending him copies of your disseration on Shadow of the Collosus explaining how killing things in this game is different than killing things in any other game then?
 
Sapiens said:
Ebert is a big nerd like all of us. He was one of the first Mainstream reviewers to recommend Anime to people, so I don't think graphic novels are beneath him.

Or are you one of those assholes who can't stand Ebert because he refuses to recognize videogames as art?

Why don't you go ahead and keep sending him copies of your disseration on Shadow of the Collosus explaining how killing things in this game is different than killing things in any other game then?


1224656000954_anonib.png
 
Sapiens said:
Ebert is a big nerd like all of us. He was one of the first Mainstream reviewers to recommend Anime to people, so I don't think graphic novels are beneath him.

Or are you one of those assholes who can't stand Ebert because he refuses to recognize videogames as art?

Why don't you go ahead and keep sending him copies of your disseration on Shadow of the Collosus explaining how killing things in this game is different than killing things in any other game then?

I vehemently disagree with him on his opinion of videogames (not to start an OT discussion), but I still respect him as a critic because he didn't just take a shit on videogames he laid out a reasoned argument and then responded to counter arguments. I still disagree with him but at least he treated the subject with maturity instead of flippantly dismissing them because "I am Ebert, I know all!"

It was a good review of Watchmen, I was particularly interested in the following:

It seems charged from within by its power as a fable; we sense it’s not interested in a plot so much as with the dilemma of functioning in a world losing hope.

Seems to indicate this is not a film that is going to succeed on the basis of it being a completely coherent progression of events. As would be expected given the complexity of the comic transitioning to screen. Instead focusing on being a kind of allegory or fable as Ebert describes it. It takes a lot of guts to pull something like that off, and even if Snyder has, many people simply don't like those types of structures in their entertainment. They get too hung up on the details of how the movie progresses instead of soaking in the experience and the overall lessons, which gets you the mixed reviews.
I know its been mentioned almost ad nauseum but Blade Runner was very similar in this regard. It was often incoherent, confusing, and fucking bizarre, but holy shit did you feel like you experienced something that wasn't just entertainment.

I'm intrigued to see if Watchmen manages to pull this off.
 
Father_Brain said:
I want to believe, but for some reason I keep thinking of the 3.5 stars he gave Titan A.E. Has Ebert given any other really weird scores to genre films?
He shat on Team America which was full fledged awesome.
 
Sapiens said:
Ebert is a big nerd like all of us. He was one of the first Mainstream reviewers to recommend Anime to people,
I'm surprised back then when he gave Ghost in the Shell a good review.
 
ten5ive9ine said:
This thread is like the gift that keeps on giving. :D

I'm still torn on seeing the movie or reading the GN first, but either way, the REAL movie of the forever comes out in April-ish.
 
v1cious said:
the worst part is the reasoning behind some of these reviews:
WHAT THE FUCK!?

Anthony Lane may be off-base on some of his critiques of the flick, but you have to consider his perspective. Some critics are coming from the perspective of Watchmen fanboys and that's fine. Lane is out in the open when he says Persopolis is more his style.

And while the thing about comedy may be wrong-headed I bet he's dead on about some of the acting.
 
This being a sort of watchmen catch-all right now, I'll post my long-winded crap here too rather than only in the weekly comic thread. No spoilers or anything (just one quote), for anyone going to see the movie without having read the book and such.




I re-read Watchmen today. This was only my second completion of it. In all forms of media, the more I like something the less often I’ll revisit it, hoping to have enough of the details fade over time to appreciate it as fully as possible. Before I go into my thoughts on this second run through, I’ll examine my first, several years ago and well before I dove head first into the medium.

My first experience with Watchmen came after I had read only a few western comics. Despite many protests from comic fans I interacted with that this was not the case and recommendations given to me to support their claims, I hadn’t shaken the conception that western comics equaled 70 year old IP spandex with a thousand issues each of endless serialized daytime soap opera, shifting creative teams with wildly different creative visions retconning each other into the ground. But the protests were persistent, and despite most of the examples given still dealing with spandex and established names I gave a few works a shot.

DKR impressed me, and opened my eyes to some degree, but it was easy to treat as an isolated incident after sampling some (at the time) current and popular in-continuity works and not thinking much of them (later I realized that I just flat-out hate spider-man, probably a major reason for not liking Bendis’s well-regarded USM). When I got to Watchmen I approached it with hesitation and doubt, and this led to it being shelved somewhere around chapter 3. Ironically, I don’t think I was ready to accept its number of plot threads, patience, depth, and maturity. Though I was at home with those concepts in regular books, I may have been too stubborn to see what I had read of Watchmen as anything other than a slow start.

Several years later (but still 2-3 years ago) I unshelved it, feeling pressure from the sheer number of acclaims Watchmen had piled up. Determined to be patient, I read past where I had been previously. Shortly afterwards it all clicked. I pulled a marathon to the final page lasting late into the night, the sort of reaction that makes Dave Gibbons proud. That was special, that was a truly compelling, tightly woven, masterfully written story, at such a level I had not experienced in either hemisphere of comics, and not very often in any medium. So, why then didn’t I explore western comics seriously afterwards? It’s hard to say. Maybe just like with my first experiences with anime, among which included watching Akira and being more than intrigued, it wasn’t until I had seen the medium let it all hang out with a compelling long format series that I could bring it home into the stable of my primary interests. For western comics, that was with Preacher, but that’d set me back another thousand words.

Time passed, I accepted western comics as a viable medium (to say the least, says my giant stack of books to the right), and then we reached today, where I dusted off my long since purchased but unread Absolute Watchmen. I begrudge DC a little for not using coated paper, especially after seeing a few gorgeously vivid frames reproduced in Watching the Watchmen, but I’ll live. Maybe.

This reading, as I’m sure subsequent ones will be as well, was for nuance. I took my time, paying close attention to each panel, each expression and background detail. It’s very easy to fly through a comic when you don’t respect the medium or the authors, or when you’re used to manga and its generally straightforward imagery. If the respect is there, then the art becomes the equivalent of everything between the dialogue in a book, not something to be glossed over (unless you’re reading Tolkien…). To know ahead of time that there’s a whole lot to Watchmen, that Moore and Gibbons and Higgins obsessed wonderfully over every single aspect of this work, that nothing was arbitrary or inconsequential, it’s a very different experience.

I felt strongly connected from the very beginning this time, instead of just when the plot threads came together in the later pages. In the current era of abused photo reference, the consistency and detail of Gibbons’ art might be even more breathtaking. The clarity of vision shared between Moore and Gibbons leaves a rare presence on the page, like a camera pointed at a world rather than a representation suiting the needs of the script. The big blocks of text between chapters that were slightly puzzling the first time around (given the medium I was reading…) engaged me from the start this time, critical worldbuilding that added indisposable weight to the actions in the narrative. The Black Freighter portions, too, that originally had tested my patience somewhat and took time to pay off in the first reading locked into place here along with all the other pieces.

Give me smallest finger on man's hand. I'll produce information. Computer unnecessary.

Even better the second time around.
 
Well I saw it in IMAX last night and I can't wait to see it again. The film is one of the most finely crafted films I can recall in recent memory and I can't wait for the Director's Cut.

Yes there are some unecessary changes toward the end
Getting rid of Manhattan's final conversation with Veidt being the big one
, but overall Snyder has won me over and he's now officially on my radar. This is THE most faithful adaptation of any source material ever. I still can't believe the film exists. Maybe I'll see it again tonight. :)

Oh btw, our projector died literally 10 seconds before the end of the film. We had to wait 5 minutes for them to start it up so everybody could see what they knew was coming.
 
Scullibundo said:
Oh btw, our projector died literally 10 seconds before the end of the film. We had to wait 5 minutes for them to start it up so everybody could see what they knew was coming.

sydney?

yeah sydney.

it was SO shit.
 
Jax said:
sydney?

yeah sydney.

it was SO shit.

:O YOU WAS THERE!

You know what though? I didn't care that much only because I knew it was essentially over. Had it happened halfway through I would have been pissed. But less than 10 seconds left for 2 sentences of dialogue and I'm not crying.
 
Just saw it tonight and I thought it was pretty good. I haven't read the graphic novel but I was planning on it. Figured I should wait until after the movie for whatever reason.
TOO MUCH PENIS GOOD GOD

That's funny hearing about having a 5 minute downtime only to see the last 10 seconds. :lol
I'd go crazy if that happened.
 
Scullibundo said:
Well I saw it in IMAX last night and I can't wait to see it again. The film is one of the most finely crafted films I can recall in recent memory and I can't wait for the Director's Cut.

Yes there are some unecessary changes toward the end
Getting rid of Manhattan's final conversation with Veidt being the big one
, but overall Snyder has won me over and he's now officially on my radar. This is THE most faithful adaptation of any source material ever. I still can't believe the film exists. Maybe I'll see it again tonight. :)

Oh btw, our projector died literally 10 seconds before the end of the film. We had to wait 5 minutes for them to start it up so everybody could see what they knew was coming.

Would you say the changed ending made sense.
 
Wrath2X said:
Would you say the changed ending made sense.

I understand why they changed
the squid
ending. For them to have included that in the already long theatrical runtime they have, Snyder would have had to sacrifice all the time spent building the characters (which even then is not enough) and use some of that time to paint the big picture that leads up to it.

This is precisely why I don't understand the removal of
the Manhattan/Veidt conversation. If anything it actually makes Ozy's motives somewhat sympathetic. I really loved that scene in the GN because Ozy was in effect looking to Manhattan - the only one who I imagine he considered on par with himself as an observer of people, he was looking to Osterman for solace, for validation for his action. I really wanted Manhattan's 'End? Nothing ever ends.' Instead it becomes an afterthought of Laurie's of what she supposed Jon would have said, whilst talking to Dan.

So I can't say that part made sense - but then I guess that's more character than plot. You have to understand the reason we are writing about these minor niggles is that they stick out in this film BECAUSE outside of them the film is perfect. It is Watchmen. They are the only things that pop up when I think 'Could I be happier?'. They are the only things that would make me recommend reading the material over seeing the film. Let's not forget how long the Director's Cut is. Some of these things might have been fixed.

Also: Whilst narrating his experiences just as in the GN,
Osterman says everything EXCEPT his legendary The light is taking me to pieces which I was waiting for.
 
Saw it yesterday evening. Good movie, but not great. I read the comic but still I found the story too convulated and a bit tiring to the end. At my screening, some people just didn't understand what was going on and left the theatre 15 minutes before the end of the movie (loudly shouting their disapproval ...).

I understand why they changed the ending, but it was a pity that key scenes from the novel were changed that much. I also didn't care a lot about the 'contemporary' music. Dylan, Hendrix, Simon & Garfunkel and Philip Glass were good, but it could have done without those 99 Luftballons and that jarring Hallelujah scene (well, I suppose the scene itself was fine).

Decent movie overall, but I think it is too complicated if you haven't read the comic, and the whole ending can be a bit of a disappointment if you did read the comic. All in all, a solid movie though with lots to be enjoyed.
 
Scullibundo said:
Also: Whilst narrating his experiences just as in the GN,
Osterman says everything EXCEPT his legendary The light is taking me to pieces which I was waiting for.

yes! oh god yes. I was waiting for that line since it's my favorite in the entire novel. I was so disappointed that he didn't put it in.
 
i'm totally nuts but I swore I saw a blurred neogaf symbol in the background of one of the scenes in the film.... i'll have to double check once it comes out on Blu-Ray
 
Ikopi said:
Saw it yesterday evening. Good movie, but not great. I read the comic but still I found the story too convulated and a bit tiring to the end. At my screening, some people just didn't understand what was going on and left the theatre 15 minutes before the end of the movie (loudly shouting their disapproval ...).

I understand why they changed the ending, but it was a pity that key scenes from the novel were changed that much. I also didn't care a lot about the 'contemporary' music. Dylan, Hendrix, Simon & Garfunkel and Philip Glass were good, but it could have done without those 99 Luftballons and that jarring Hallelujah scene (well, I suppose the scene itself was fine).

Decent movie overall, but I think it is too complicated if you haven't read the comic, and the whole ending can be a bit of a disappointment if you did read the comic. All in all, a solid movie though with lots to be enjoyed.

I'd say one of the best things about the movie was the music. As you mentioned, the 99 luftballons + hallelejuah scene (which was so poorly done) were weirdly placed. I loved the intro segment introducing the minute men at the start - it was quite amazing and the tone+music was perfect. Made me very excited to watch the movie when it began.

I noticed this opens 6th march for usa so I guess that's why this thread flounders?
 
Gattsu25 said:
Ahh...so it's already out in other countries? I thought you guys were just reporting back from advanced screenings :lol

nah, it's been out in Europe for 2 days now
 
Just saw it. Thoroughly enjoyed it - it was very, very faithful to the comic, but for a couple of key moments at the end.
Everything was great except for the final 10 minutes - the sense of urgency and care-factor just seemed to plummet at that point.

My wife, who was born in the '80s, missed practically all of the historical references, so for her it was a mismatch of modern superhero storytelling against a time period she has no understanding of.

Apart from that:

SO... MUCH... PENIS.
 
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