Support NeoGAF

[DeaconKnowledge]

I'm of course talking about Smokescreen.

Transformers Prime has a subplot that pretty rigidly follows the beats of Rodimus Prime's story from TF:TM, except that it actually avoids the critical missteps the movie made.

It still has the father son dynamic - Smokescreen is the plucky young upstart that desperately wants to be important (and by proxy impress his 'father' Optimus) and sometimes cuts corners to get there. There is a very impressive scene of Optimus dressing Smokescreen down and reminding him that the Autobots always have to mind their surroundings). In an episode where Optimus cut a mountain in two, this speech was his strongest scene. Father's lead by example.

There was even a redux of the iconic fight between Optimus and Megatron, this time with swords. However instead of Rodimus inadvertently getting Optimus killed in the movie, in Prime Smokescreen manages to save Optimus' life by being observant and waiting for a proper opportunity to strike.

And when that scene inevitably comes up, Smokescreens decision making and quick thinking ends in quite a different result (Hey, don't want to spoil everything for you.)

Transformers Prime is the best TF show ever IMO, and the fatherhood role it deftly plays is one of the largest reasons why. Best Transformers show ever (yes, that INCLUDES Beast Wars.)

Spoiler

Cheerilee, get your butt in here and debate Transformers with me!

 

[NEO0MJ]

But why not use Rodimus, then?

 

[Daingurse]

I love Prime. It beat out Beast Wars for me, and became my favorite Transformers series. I love Prime Starscream. Only thing missing was Chris Latta's amazing voice

 

[Carbonox]

Transformers Prime was fantastic. Really enjoyable.

 

[Wandering Robot]

I still rue the fact that it got cancelled. Loved it.

I agree about the dynamic between the two, but the problem is that I just cannot stand Rodimus (and his various incarnations, including Smokescreen). He always manages to piss me off.

 

[BlueScrote]

My main issue with Prime was that I didn't really like the Starscream/Shockwave/Soundwave designs. Just didn't do it for me. I also found Smokescreen a bit distracting because all I heard was Nathan Drake.

 

[Slayven]

The ending was the best ending of any Transformer's property ever

 

[AlexFlame116]

Forgive me for sounding like a complete noob with this but isn't Rodimus Prime Hot Rod??? Or was that changed?

 

[NastyBook]

But why not use Rodimus, then?

Because Rodimus is garbage.

And Prime is the best series, hands down. Welker voiced his ass off. Easily the most menacing Megatron that's ever existed. From the way he, while trapped up to his head from a cave in, manages to finesse Jack into doing exactly what he wants, to taking Ratchet's best roidergon punch to the face before one shotting him and have the bot reflect on his dumbest mistake ever. I couldn't find a better show to binge watch while dealing with pneumonia if I tried.

 

[Maligna]

Forgive me for sounding like a complete noob with this but isn't Rodimus Prime Hot Rod??? Or was that changed?

Haven't seen it but it sounds like the Rodimus/Hot Rod story was given to Smokescreen instead and in OPs opinion it was handled better. Which is a shame because Rodimus is my favorite TF character ever.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Forgive me for sounding like a complete noob with this but isn't Rodimus Prime Hot Rod??? Or was that changed?

He was, but Smokescreen is an Expy of Hot Rod.

But why not use Rodimus, then?

Hot Rod is damaged goods. Plus you would have seen the plotlines coming from a mile away had they used Hot Rod.

 

[Shaanyboi]

Prime was fucking great.

 

[MattKeil]

He's definitely one of the best parts of TF Prime. The first season is a slog due to pacing issues and filler eps, but most of the show moves pretty well.

But why not use Rodimus, then?

Because they didn't have the trademark for the name at the time. Smokescreen was originally meant to be Hot Rod.

 

[kunonabi]

Rodimus was perfect the way he was in both the movie and show.

 

[Weiss]

EDIT: Okay I'm a fucking moron.

 

[Cheerilee]

Cheerilee, get your butt in here and debate Transformers with me!

Nothing to debate. Transformers Prime is fantastic. Smokescreen is fantastic.

One thing I particularly loved about Smokescreen was that they didn't add him to the opening credits as soon as they introduced him, so I thought he was a one-off guest character, which meant that when they had him do reckless "I'm going to get myself killed" things, I legitimately thought that there was a good chance that he was going to die (which was also a payoff from an investment the show made in it's very first episode). It made me care about the kid, and when he did something clever and saved the day, I genuinely rooted for him to win. Smokescreen was a fantastic addition to an already-fantastic show.

I was a little disappointed with the ending of Transformers Prime not giving Smokescreen the credit that he deserved. (

Spoiler

Optimus Prime: In a way, you're all Primes. In another, more accurate way, none of you are. Goodbye losers.

) IMO, by turning down the prize for the sake of others when it was easily offered to him, Smokescreen passed a test and proved himself worthy of the prize (someday he will be a great leader, but later, not now). The idea that doing the right thing permanently screwed Smokescreen, and that the Transformer gods will never again afford him that opportunity, seems kind of weak to me.

But I still like Hot Rod.

Forgive me for sounding like a complete noob with this but isn't Rodimus Prime Hot Rod??? Or was that changed?

Yep. In Transformers the Movie (1986)...

Spoiler

Optimus and Megatron threw down for what would likely be their final battle. As Optimus stood ready to cross his line and kill Megatron, Megatron prepared a sneak attack to kill Optimus. The young Hot Rod tried to step up and save Optimus, only to be taken hostage, triggering a back-and-forth where Optimus and Megatron mortally wound each other in way that suggests that neither one truly won or lost (except Hot Rod, who lost). Hot Rod was then chosen by destiny to be the next Prime (Rodimus Prime), and a lot of TftM viewers were upset about that. There's also an issue with TftM Rodimus essentially being a different character from TF Season 3 Rodimus, where the TV writers decided to create a "more interesting" character so they gave Rodimus a number of flaws, basically retconning him to be even more unworthy in a way that exceeds people's problems with TftM.

Transformers Prime is (was) a complete reboot of Transformers, not connected to Generation One (beyond some shared names and character similarities).

In Transformers Prime...

Spoiler

Optimus Prime willfully doomed Cybertron in a last-ditch attempt to keep it out of Megatron's hands. An upset Megatron launched a massive attack on the Autobots and mortally wounded Optimus, while Smokescreen saved his life (temporarily). As Optimus lay dying, depressed and ready to quit, quite willing to die for what he did to Cybertron, the Transformer gods told him that it was okay to let go and move on to the next life, because Smokescreen was destined to be the next Prime (something that had been hinted at a couple of times earlier in his arc). Optimus can let go, because life will go on without him, and Smokescreen Prime (or whatever his name ends up being) will clean up his mess. The Matrix was presented to Smokescreen, and Smokescreen really wanted it, but he refused. For his first leadership decision, he pushed the Matrix back into Optimus' chest and demanded that Optimus snap out of it and pull himself together, because the Autobots need him. They're going to stop Megatron, and they're going to find a way to fix Cybertron, and they're going to do it together.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Nothing to debate. Transformers Prime is fantastic. Smokescreen is fantastic.

One thing I particularly loved about Smokescreen was that they didn't add him to the opening credits as soon as they introduced him, so I thought he was a one-off guest character, which meant that when they had him do reckless "I'm going to get myself killed" things, I legitimately thought that there was a good chance that he was going to die (which was also a payoff from an investment the show made in it's very first episode). It made me care about the kid, and when he did something clever and saved the day, I genuinely rooted for him to win. Smokescreen was a fantastic addition to an already-fantastic show.

I was a little disappointed with the ending of Transformers Prime not giving Smokescreen the credit that he deserved. (

Spoiler

Optimus Prime: In a way, you're all Primes. In another, more accurate way, none of you are. Goodbye losers.

) IMO, by turning down the prize for the sake of others when it was easily offered to him, Smokescreen passed a test and proved himself worthy of the prize (someday he will be a great leader, but later, not now). The idea that doing the right thing permanently screwed Smokescreen, and that the Transformer gods will never again afford him that opportunity, seems kind of weak to me.

But I still like Hot Rod.


Yep. In Transformers the Movie (1986)...

Spoiler

Optimus and Megatron threw down for what would likely be their final battle. As Optimus stood ready to cross his line and kill Megatron, Megatron prepared a sneak attack to kill Optimus. The young Hot Rod tried to step up and save Optimus, only to be taken hostage, triggering a back-and-forth where Optimus and Megatron mortally wound each other in way that suggests that neither one truly won or lost (except Hot Rod, who lost). Hot Rod was then chosen by destiny to be the next Prime (Rodimus Prime), and a lot of TftM viewers were upset about that. There's also an issue with TftM Rodimus essentially being a different character from TF Season 3 Rodimus, where the TV writers decided to create a "more interesting" character so they gave Rodimus a number of flaws, basically retconning him to be even more unworthy in a way that exceeds people's problems with TftM.

Transformers Prime is (was) a complete reboot of Transformers, not connected to Generation One (beyond some shared names and character similarities).

In Transformers Prime...

Spoiler

Optimus Prime willfully doomed Cybertron in a last-ditch attempt to keep it out of Megatron's hands. An upset Megatron launched a massive attack on the Autobots and mortally wounded Optimus, while Smokescreen saved his life (temporarily). As Optimus lay dying, depressed and ready to quit, quite willing to die for what he did to Cybertron, the Transformer gods told him that it was okay to let go and move on to the next life, because Smokescreen was destined to be the next Prime (something that had been hinted at a couple of times earlier in his arc). Optimus can let go, because life will go on without him, and Smokescreen Prime (or whatever his name ends up being) will clean up his mess. The Matrix was presented to Smokescreen, and Smokescreen really wanted it, but he refused. For his first leadership decision, he pushed the Matrix back into Optimus' chest and demanded that Optimus snap out of it and pull himself together, because the Autobots need him. They're going to stop Megatron, and they're going to find a way to fix Cybertron, and they're going to do it together.

Smokimus Prime!

I've said this before but Smokescreen's sacrifice makes him a better leader than Rodimus ever was. Yeah he did get shafted, but it's a brand new Cybertron. Prime was right anyway - The matrix would make him Prime in name only. The entire point of the war was to abolish the caste system, and squash Megatron's clutch for power, both which have been accomplished. Anyone getting the Matrix then would defeat the entire purpose.

 

[uncelestial]

Rodimus is still a stupid name tho.

 

[Toxi]

Unfortunately, to reach the good stuff with Smokescreen, you have to watch through the dumpster fire that is most of Season 2.

Prime disappointed me so many times, it's hard for me to appreciate when it was good. When the show wasn't firing on all cylinders, it was just dull... A problem many cartoons seem to have today. All the top quality stuff is concentrated in a few episodes out of a season.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Unfortunately, to reach the good stuff with Smokescreen, you have to watch through the dumpster fire that is most of Season 2.

Prime disappointed me so many times, it's hard for me to appreciate when it was good. When the show wasn't firing on all cylinders, it was just dull.

I just do not understand this opinion. I mean, season 1 sure as it has a few throwaway episodes, but season 2, even with the extended relic hunt, was sublime. Only part of season 2 I think was wasted was

Spoiler

Bulkhead's near death

and i'm pretty sure they

Spoiler

intended to kill him off, but scrapped it since Prime got a whole season's worth of episodes lopped off. I mean, Wheeljack finally joined the team for a reason.

 

[Toxi]

I just do not understand this opinion. I mean, season 1 sure as it has a few throwaway episodes, but season 2, even with the extended relic hunt, was sublime. Only part of season 2 I think was wasted was

Spoiler

Bulkhead's near death

and i'm pretty sure they

Spoiler

intended to kill him off, but scrapped it since Prime got a whole season's worth of episodes lopped off.

Orion Pax took an incredible concept and wasted it on three episodes of nothing, because they don't bother even trying to give Optimus Prime a personality.

That's the problem with Prime: It's a show full of big "dramatic" plot developments that often aren't accompanied by the character focus to make those plot developments mean something. The example in your OP is good because the writers actually put the work into Smokescreen. But those episodes feel like a minority to me.

 

[sphagnum]

Honestly TFP was a mess and somewhat of a bore. They kept setting up interesting plot lines and then resolving them back to the status quo very quickly. And the whole third season feels totally tacked on since, you know, it was.

It had some good characters and concepts but it doesn't feel fully formed and has no charm. I would have preferred if Animated had been allowed to continue.

I tried to watch the sequel series, RID, but I couldn't make it through more than a few episodes. Sucks that the Aligned continuity killed a lot of my interest in the franchise when I used to be obsessed with it.

 

[Frozenprince]

The ending was the best ending of any Transformer's property ever

Cause it was an actual coherent and cogent ending not "BUY MORE TOYS WHEN THE NEXT SHIT COMES OUT" like the last eight cartoon series (especially Energon).

 

[sphagnum]

And Prime is the best series, hands down.

I maintain that the best TF series ever is Super Link, if you just stop after episode 16 and make up the rest of the story.

But those first 16 episodes. So much potential.

 

[Toxi]

Cause it was an actual coherent and cogent ending not "BUY MORE TOYS WHEN THE NEXT SHIT COMES OUT" like the last eight cartoon series (especially Energon).

Last eight cartoon series?

I don't even think the last cartoon series (Animated) ended that way.

 

[sphagnum]

Last eight cartoon series?

I don't even think the last cartoon series (Animated) ended that way.

Well, it kind of couldn't, since it got unceremoniously cancelled.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Orion Pax took an incredible concept and wasted it on three episodes of nothing, because they don't bother even trying to give Optimus Prime a personality.

That's the problem with Prime: It's a show full of big dramatic plot developments that often aren't accompanied by the character focus to actually make those plot developments mean something.

Honestly TFP was a mess and somewhat of a bore. They kept setting up interesting plot lines and then resolving them back to the status quo very quickly. And the whole third season feels totally tacked on since, you know, it was.

It had some good characters and concepts but it doesn't feel fully formed and has no charm. I would have preferred if Animated had been allowed to continue.

I tried to watch the sequel series, RID, but I couldn't make it through more than a few episodes. Sucks that the Aligned continuity killed a lot of my interest in the franchise when I used to be obsessed with it.

I guess my problem is the constant "character development" and "status quo" arguments. Transfans always want "character development" but complain when characters die. In the OP I mentioned the maturation of Ops and Smoke's relationship but apparently that isn't enough character development?! That was a seaspn 2 arc too. Seems inconsistent - more like the character development Transfans are looking for is for Prime to play oversized basketball with the Autobots like in G1, or cram the show with tons of one off characters like with Animated. I mean, I love G1 too but it's Saturday morning camp - I watched an episode on Tuesday where a wealthy socialite fell in love with Powerglide for mercy's sake..he rode a ferris wheel!

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

This was/is my 2nd favorite TF series behind Beast Wars. It was good times (there was still alot of room for improvement though, especially the mcguffins). Loved the designs. Hated Miko though, haha.

 

[Toxi]

Transfans always want "character development" but complain when characters die.

Well yeah, killing a character off isn't development. A character's death can be a meaningful conclusion to their development, but just randomly offing Tigatron or Breakdown is pretty clearly not a meaningful conclusion for those characters.

But it's not even that Prime lacks character development. It's that most of the characters are just bland. Bulkhead is bland. Arcee is bland. Optimus is bland. Ratchet is bland. Jack is bland. I can watch a random episode of Beast Wars season 1 and even if it's not one of the best, I'll enjoy seeing the characters interact and bounce off of each other. But in Prime, I better hope I pick one of the best episodes.

In the OP I mentioned the maturation of Ops and Smoke's relationship but apparently that isn't enough character development?!

It's actually really great character development... For Smokescreen. Not so much for Optimus.

 

[sphagnum]

Yeah TFP Optimus is basically just Stoicus Prime. T"Primes don't party" and all that. He's boring. They had a golden opportunity to make him interesting with the Orion Pax storyline and it just went right back to normal.

 

[Cheerilee]

Smokimus Prime!

I've said this before but Smokescreen's sacrifice makes him a better leader than Rodimus ever was. Yeah he did get shafted, but it's a brand new Cybertron. Prime was right anyway - The matrix would make him Prime in name only. The entire point of the war was to abolish the caste system, and squash Megatron's clutch for power, both which have been accomplished. Anyone getting the Matrix then would defeat the entire purpose.

As I understand it, in the Aligned Continuity, Primus (the god of Cybertron) built the Thirteen original Primes, who in turn built the first generation of Cybertronians, before falling into myth and legend.

At least one younger Transformer was upgraded to the level of Prime, Sentinel Prime, and Sentinel rearranged Cybertron into a caste system and led the planet into stagnation. Alpha Trion (one of the original 13) disagreed with Sentinel's rule, but he kept his mouth shut and went into hiding so as not to provoke a Prime-vs-Prime civil war. But Alpha Trion secretly groomed both Orion Pax and Smokescreen for upgrades to Prime (at minimum, these are just two of his known plans).

Megatron was declared worthless by Sentinel's caste system, but by the fire in his heart he became Cybertron's #1 gladiator, and demanded sweeping reforms (through public speeches and secretly through violence). Orion Pax joined Megatron's cause, but Megatron lost his shit after the ruling council declared Orion Pax to be a new Prime (in an attempt to quiet the revolt), because Megatron wanted that honor for himself. Megatron wasn't really about fixing the system, he personally wanted to climb from "garbage of the system" to "god of the system".

Since Orion Pax was declared Prime by the ruling council (a title they had no right to grant), he was Prime in Name Only, until he passed a worthiness test and was recognized as a genuine Prime by Primus himself. Megatron didn't understand or care about the religious component of being Prime, he wanted the council to make him Prime in Name Only.

With Sentinel Prime's stagnant caste system destroyed (which Optimus Prime was entirely prepared to do) and Megatron's selfish war ended, no Transformer is better than another and all Transformers are free to live as they desired, but I don't think that eliminated the value in having a connection to Primus, as indicated by the "Prime" title (even if that title carries no political power). I think that in declining to accept Optimus Prime's Matrix, Smokescreen passed the "worthiness test" required for Primus to grant him an entirely new Matrix. I think Cybertron can and should have more than one Prime.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Well yeah, killing a character off isn't development. A character's death can be a meaningful conclusion to their development, but just randomly offing Tigatron or Breakdown is pretty clearly not a meaningful conclusion for those characters.

In both those cases, sure. Obviously much more was expected for Breakdown (poor dude admits he has the hots for Airrachnid and she ends up killing him - savage) but that's one character. You listen to Transfans and nobody was developed over the course of the entire show. Character development to Transfans doesn't mean a long, fulfilling character arc - it means more characters and nostalgia, no matter how useless they may be. That's not development.

But it's not even that Prime lacks character development. It's that most of the characters are just bland. Bulkhead is bland. Arcee is bland. Optimus is bland. Ratchet is bland. Jack is bland. I can watch a random episode of Beast Wars season 1 and even if it's not one of the best, I'll enjoy seeing the characters interact and bounce off of each other. But in Prime, I better hope I pick one of the best episodes.

Well I disagree there. Ratchet's xenophobia for example was one of my favorite parts of the show, and colored all of his interactions with every member of the cast, but that's my opinion. If you didn't like the characters I can't say anything.

It's actually really great character development... For Smokescreen. Not so much for Optimus.

How much more can you develop Optimus Prime? His character is set. The show is about the maturation of the characters around him.

I mean, I understand to a degree why people like Optimus in Animated - problem is that character isn't Optimus. It's Hot Rod.

As I understand it, in the Aligned Continuity, Primus (the god of Cybertron) built the Thirteen original Primes, who in turn built the first generation of Cybertronians, before falling into myth and legend.

At least one younger Transformer was upgraded to the level of Prime, Sentinel Prime, and Sentinel rearranged Cybertron into a caste system and led the planet into stagnation. Alpha Trion (one of the original 13) disagreed with Sentinel's rule, but he kept his mouth shut and went into hiding so as not to provoke a Prime-vs-Prime civil war. But Alpha Trion secretly groomed both Orion Pax and Smokescreen for upgrades to Prime (at minimum, these are just two of his known plans).

Megatron was declared worthless by Sentinel's caste system, but by the fire in his heart he became Cybertron's #1 gladiator, and demanded sweeping reforms (through public speeches and secretly through violence). Orion Pax joined Megatron's cause, but Megatron lost his shit after the ruling council declared Orion Pax to be a new Prime (in an attempt to quiet the revolt), because Megatron wanted that honor for himself. Megatron wasn't really about fixing the system, he personally wanted to climb from "garbage of the system" to "god of the system".

Since Orion Pax was declared Prime by the ruling council (a title they had no right to grant), he was Prime in Name Only, until he passed a worthiness test and was recognized as a genuine Prime by Primus himself. Megatron didn't understand or care about the religious component of being Prime, he wanted the council to make him Prime in Name Only.

With Sentinel Prime's stagnant caste system destroyed (which Optimus Prime was entirely prepared to do) and Megatron's selfish war ended, no Transformer is better than another and all Transformers are free to live as they desired, but I don't think that eliminated the value in having a connection to Primus, as indicated by the "Prime" title (even if that title carries no political power). I think that in declining to accept Optimus Prime's Matrix, Smokescreen passed the "worthiness test" required for Primus to grant him an entirely new Matrix. I think Cybertron can and should have more than one Prime.

I agree that there could have been more than one Prime - during the war, but it sends entirely the wrong message, particularly since the war was ostensibly started BY a Prime (I mean, there's a reason most Cons couldn't care less about the position) and arguably TWO Primes.

I mean, Smokescreen deserved a chance sure, but what type of new world would they really create with returning Cybertronians if the immediate message was "our planet went dark for eons because of the decisions and actions of Sentinel Prime and his caste system - on that note say hello to your new Prime Smokescreen! We have a really good feeling this time."

Optimus' quest was never to sire a new Prime, it was to restore Cybertron, control and/or destroy a despot an dismantle the broken caste system, all of which he accomplished.

 

[Lagamorph]

I remember the first episode of Prime actually shocked me when I first saw it.
Seeing Starscream just casually

Spoiler

impale Cliffjumper

like that....I mean bloody hell.

Wasn't it set in the same universe as the Fall/War games too?

 

[Cheerilee]

I agree that there could have been more than one Prime - during the war, but it sends entirely the wrong message, particularly since the war was ostensibly started BY a Prime (I mean, there's a reason most Cons couldn't care less about the position) and arguably TWO Primes.

Megatron (in the Aligned continuity) fancied himself a Prime, which was why he named himself after Megatronus (one of the 13 Primes).

The Decepticons mostly didn't care about some sort of "ordained by God" title because they didn't believe in any of that shit, especially since Sentinel Prime proved to be a bad example, and Optimus was literally given the title by politicians. It's BS (to them), so they're willing to follow Megatron's BS claim to rule, because Megatron is strong and they like his leadership and they want to be on the winning side.

I mean, Smokescreen deserved a chance sure, but what type of new world would they really create with returning Cybertronians if the immediate message was "our planet went dark for eons because of the decisions and actions of Sentinel Prime and his caste system - on that note say hello to your new Prime Smokescreen! We have a really good feeling this time."

I don't think it would've mattered so long as Smokescreen's not bossing anybody around. He would be in the same position as Optimus Prime. There was a civil war. The planet got wrecked. Most Cybertronians fled. If Megatron wins the war, he'll rule anyone who returns home like a tyrant, and things will be really bad for anyone who leans Autobot. If Optimus wins, he's not going to be a dick about it and things can start to heal.

Optimus didn't need to die to take "Primes" off the table in order to appease the Decepticons, all he had to do is not be a dick to the Decepticons. And if Smokescreen becomes a Prime, it opens up the door to "you really can become anything" in the new Cybertron (one of the complaints of the Decepticons being that Sentinel Prime never allowed Cybertronians to grow and change).

Optimus' quest was never to sire a new Prime, it was to restore Cybertron, control and/or destroy a despot an dismantle the broken caste system, all of which he accomplished.

I don't think Smokescreen's potential to become a Prime was really in Optimus' hands. It's Primus who makes that call. Primus gave Optimus his Matrix. At the end of his journey, Optimus was forced to give it back to Primus. Inheriting a Matrix is apparently a thing, but it's only logical that Primus could (and IMO should) give a new one to Smokescreen, for his valor in not allowing Optimus Prime to die by making a selfish grab for his Matrix.

I just think it was a dick move for Optimus to essentially become the walking dead and then say "Oops, I need to walk over to the afterlife now. And since I'm the last Prime, that means Primes are fucking done. All of you (Smokescreen included) are as good as Primes, but more accurately, none of you (Smokescreen included) are Primes. I'm the only Prime. There will never be another."

Plus I think Optimus failed to recognize the real value of a Prime. Optimus was literally willing to die to preserve the last spark of battery power in a tool created by a Prime. Smokescreen said "Fuck this tool, Optimus Prime is more valuable than this old hammer." What if, as a Prime, Smokescreen gains the ability to create his own Forges of Solus Prime? Smokescreen would've felt pretty silly letting a Prime die to preserve an old, broken hammer. Primes are a good thing. I'm sure they could help with the reconstruction of Cybertron without being assholes. They basically built the planet in the first place.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Megatron (in the Aligned continuity) fancied himself a Prime, which was why he named himself after Megatronus (one of the 13 Primes).

The Decepticons mostly didn't care about some sort of "ordained by God" title because they didn't believe in any of that shit, especially since Sentinel Prime proved to be a bad example, and Optimus was literally given the title by politicians. It's BS (to them), so they're willing to follow Megatron's BS claim to rule, because Megatron is strong and they like his leadership and they want to be on the winning side.

Yeah. Cybertronians, despite the honorable Prime lineage, are warmongers by nature. It doesn't surprise me that the atheistic Megatron was able to curry so much power so quickly.

I don't think it would've mattered so long as Smokescreen's not bossing anybody around. He would be in the same position as Optimus Prime. There was a civil war. The planet got wrecked. Most Cybertronians fled. If Megatron wins the war, he'll rule anyone who returns home like a tyrant, and things will be really bad for anyone who leans Autobot. If Optimus wins, he's not going to be a dick about it and things can start to heal.

Optimus didn't need to die to take "Primes" off the table in order to appease the Decepticons, all he had to do is not be a dick to the Decepticons. And if Smokescreen becomes a Prime, it opens up the door to "you really can become anything" in the new Cybertron (one of the complaints of the Decepticons being that Sentinel Prime never allowed Cybertronians to grow and change).

Good points. Though I feel that the title in this sense would be ceremonial in nature - Smokescreen wouldn't have any real power. That said, someone had to oversee the rebuilding of Cybertron, and Ultra Magnus has admitted that he is a soldier and not a leader.

I don't think Smokescreen's potential to become a Prime was really in Optimus' hands. It's Primus who makes that call. Primus gave Optimus his Matrix. At the end of his journey, Optimus was forced to give it back to Primus. Inheriting a Matrix is apparently a thing, but it's only logical that Primus could (and IMO should) give a new one to Smokescreen, for his valor in not allowing Optimus Prime to die by making a selfish grab for his Matrix.

I just think it was a dick move for Optimus to essentially become the walking dead and then say "Oops, I need to walk over to the afterlife now. And since I'm the last Prime, that means Primes are fucking done. All of you (Smokescreen included) are as good as Primes, but more accurately, none of you (Smokescreen included) are Primes. I'm the only Prime. There will never be another."

Again good point. Though to be fair, Optimus DID attempt to give Smokescreen the matrix. You are right to say he does not control it, but that's why he had the conversation with Alpha Trion about the Matrix choosing another. He offered it to Smokescreen, Smokescreen rebuked it. Is it Prime's responsibility to bestow another one? If Primus wills it, then somehow he will receive it as Optimus did.

Plus I think Optimus failed to recognize the real value of a Prime. Optimus was literally willing to die to preserve the last spark of battery power in a tool created by a Prime. Smokescreen said "Fuck this tool, Optimus Prime is more valuable than this old hammer." What if, as a Prime, Smokescreen gains the ability to create his own Forges of Solus Prime? Smokescreen would've felt pretty silly letting a Prime die to preserve an old, broken hammer. Primes are a good thing. I'm sure they could help with the reconstruction of Cybertron without being assholes. They basically built the planet in the first place.

See this is why I like you Cheer. You always make good points, agree or disagree.

This is why I was hoping that the sequel series would explore the rebuilding of Cybertron and the political ramifications to who "won" the war. My guess is that this will be addressed either in Robots in Disguise or a sequel series, and we haven't seen Smokescreen yet in the show. So perhaps despite not having the official title of Prime, Smokescreen ascended to a position of prominence anyway.

 

[BlueScrote]

I never thought I'd read cogent arguments about transformers on GAF.

Spoiler

I love it!

.

I think I may rewatch seasons 2/3 of Prime as a result. I've been thinking of rewatching Beast Wars, although I've heard the art style hasn't aged well. I watched season 1 of RiD and while I liked some of the villain designs, everything else was a wash. Having grimlock as a part of the main cast has such potential but I think it just flopped.

I still think IDW has done the most to take the property forward since it gives most of the g1 characters uniquer developments.

Spoiler

Except for what they did the Magnus. That was just a stupid retcon

.

 

[Dynasty]

Foavourite Transformers for me.
1)Transformers Armada - Nostalgia plays a big reason for this, I remember when optimus powerlinked with Jetfire and I lost my mind. When Starscream died I shed a tear. This was the transformer cartoon that got me so invested into the series.
2)Transformers Cybertron - Really liked the charcaters in this one and it had a lot of awesome moments. Starscream was my favourite character of the show. I was rooting for him even though I knew Megatron would win in there final fight where they were essentially going supersayian bringing back dbz memories for me. The racing tournament was also well done.
3) Transformers Prime - Only thing I didnt like about this show is Starscream so that automatically puts it below the other two but otherwise this was excellently done.

 

[sphagnum]

It's funny that it's now ok to like Armada when it was treated as the worst thing ever when it came out. I've always liked it despite its huge flaws.

 

[BlueScrote]

I can never remember whether Armada or Animated was considered the most maligned at the time. I've haven't watched either so I can't really comment.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Best Transformers discussion in a while. Let's keep this going!

Continuing on the Ratchet Xenophobia thing, he had massive character development throughout the series. I mean, he actually decided to align himself with the barbarian Megatron - the same guy he cussed out when Optimus reluctantly aligned with him during the Unicron arc.

Ratchet was pissed when he found out Optimus destroyed the omega lock. It was the first time in the entire series (aside from when Ratchet was roided up on synth-n) that he challenged Optimus' decision making.

Megatron and Ratchet shared one attribute throughout the entire show - they were both Cybertron first. When they met up, it was only a matter of time before they joined forces, no matter how disgusted Ratchet may have been at the thought.

No character development though/

 

[Bizazedo]

I absolutely loved Megatron in this show. I mean, for me, BW is still #1 due to my age and nostalgia, but Prime was enjoyable to me.

That being said, I liked that BW wasn't "the" Optimus Prime or "the" Megatron. That Megatron was different and awesome because of it.

 

[NEO0MJ]

That being said, I liked that BW wasn't "the" Optimus Prime or "the" Megatron. That Megatron was different and awesome because of it.

Yeah, though I like that he admires the original.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Beast Wars is great because the Optimus and Megatron in those shows are their own. In fact until Prime (Frank Welker did an amazing job as Megatron, the depth and range from him in that role was amazing) Beast Wars Megatron was the greatest iteration of the character (despite not actually being the original Megatron).

 

[The Horror the horror]

Yeah, though I like that he admires the original.

The best part was when Ravage returned and his dying cry. "Decepticons...forevvvvver!!"

Anyway, never could get into Prime. I don't like the robot designs, to be honest. Prefer the more brutalist look of the transformers.

 

[BlueScrote]

The best part was when Ravage returned and his dying cry. "Decepticons...forevvvvver!!"

Anyway, never could get into Prime. I don't like the robot designs, to be honest. Prefer the more brutalist look of the transformers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b-sQuznwMo

Holy shit I forgot about this. The soundtrack is amazing.

 

[Principate]

Yeah, though I like that he admires the original.

Beast Wars Megatron was THE best Megatron. He's plan's, scheme's and general drive was a completely different level to everyone else in the show. even when characters tried to betray him he was way waaaay ahead of them. His speech at the end of season two to Optimus Prime is still my favourite. You could see the culmination of his character arc, his goals his hatred an fear all leading up that moment. Dudes was litterally just gambling and betting through various parts of that arc, hedging his bets and upping the stakes until he makes his major breakthrough.

"It has all come down to this, the ultimate risk for the ultimat prize a day of recknoning with those who made us slaves!"