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Rubberband AI sucks

Y

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
I hate rubberband AI. I don't think I have ever seen it implemented in a game that didn't make me want to pull my hair out. Rubberband AI is the idea that, in a racing game, characters farther back are pulled (or banded) up towards the front of the pack (who are often slowed down by being in the front) as if there was a giant rubberband holding the field together.

I've now played a bunch of games with rubberband AI, and it has sucked in every single game I've tried it with. Take Motorstorm 1 (and even 2 to a lesser extent), which I believe is an otherwise good racing game that becomes great when you go online and remove the AI from the equation. Rubberband AI in that game has given rise to players intentionally refraining from LEADING the race until the last lap because the AI will aggressively cheat to force its way to the front. Midnight Club LA does something similar.

I understand the philosophy behind rubberband AI. It keeps the action focused around the player. It gives you a chance to always be in it. But I feel that it ends up ultimately more frustrating than exciting. Having a car overtake you because it is going faster than its top speed should permit is not fun or exciting, it's broken and cheating.

For me, racing a supremely clean line in a game is something inherently rewarding. I don't need to have someone hot on my tail to know that I just kicked total ass. In fact, I like looking at the map and seeing the next closest radar six hundred miles away from me. I dominated. I don't need Peach in her shitty kart with the top speed of a Daihatsu to speed past me in the last second of a race because the CPU was home cooking. I also don't need to be racing the best line of my life and still lose because I overshot a turn by 2" heading into the final straightaway and it just so happens that all the CPU racers are also racing the races of their lives!

At the same time, I'm the type of person that will restart a race if I don't feel that I got a good push off the starting line. I don't need to feel that I'm still in a race when I know I shouldn't be. If I botch the first turn, I'll restart. And that makes nailing a race all the more fun.

Rubberband AI seems like an incredibly frustrating device that was well intentioned but ultimately betrays its purpose of keeping races fun and exciting. Instead, it makes races frustrating and annoying.

Please, developers, don't use this anymore.
 
Yes. It's retarded.

Kind of like level scaling in RPGs. It just makes it so it never feels like you are progressing.
 
Kulock said:
"Wow, the CPU just got two blue shells. In a row. And a star. And now I'm in 5th place after four laps."
Click to expand...

That's the best part of Mario Kart, no matter where you are you're never out of it. Really makes it a blast.

I fucking hate blue shells when I'm in first though >:|
 
Kulock said:
"Wow, the CPU just got two blue shells. In a row. And a star. And now I'm in 5th place after four laps."
Click to expand...
As much as i hate that, I think i loved Mario Kart 64 because of that fact. I almost never felt comfortable in the lead which sounds like a bad thing, but in multiplayer it made it so intense. I remember yelling at my best freinds for using a blue shell on me while some AI dick passes right before the finish line, and for some reason my pure white hot rage was all part of the awesome experience.

I think ultimately it depends on the gamer and the game whether you like the rubberbanding or not.
 
I can see why it'd be infuriating in some games, but rubberband AI is the secret to why I loved Wipeout Pure so much. They ditched it in Wipeout Pulse in favor of generally tougher and more aggressive opponents, but once you were out in first, that was it. Not nearly as exciting.
 
Cat in the Hat said:
As much as i hate that, I think i loved Mario Kart 64 because of that fact. I almost never felt comfortable in the lead which sounds like a bad thing, but in multiplayer it made it so intense. I remember yelling at my best freinds for using a blue shell on me while some AI dick passes right before the finish line, and for some reason my pure white hot rage was all part of the awesome experience. I think ultimately it depends on the gamer and the game whether you like the rubberbanding or not.
Click to expand...
proceed...
 
It works in Excite Truck, but that's because the other trucks give you more opportunities for stars and you don't necessarily have to come first to make progress. Otherwise I agree.
 
Mario Kart is different. The item system is a type of rubberbanding, but there can be balance in the item system so that it's not so strong. The difference between one mushroom and three mushrooms, for example, is not that bad, and it's certainly not going to cause me to fear first place. I think something like Mario Kart Wii (and DS has some of this but not a lot) takes it to an extreme. The items are so unbalanced that basically you could potentially win a fair sample of races by sucking. But I don't usually go into Mario Kart looking for the perfect lines on each track.
 
Personally, I think it's the worst kind of crutch. It rewards you when you suck, and punishes you for being skilled. To me, that's so completely backwards, I simply do NOT understand the philosophy.
 
stinger009 said:
NBA Jam was the worst..
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I wasn't even thinking about sports games, but you are totally right. The old Blitz games used to cheat like hell on N64.
 
That's why I mostly do time trials when I play racing games. Don't have to bother with other drivers rubberbanding you the whole way. You get your satisfaction from driving well and beating your best time.
 
Y2Kev said:
I wasn't even thinking about sports games, but you are totally right. The old Blitz games used to cheat like hell on N64.
Click to expand...

Glad someone else remembers this. Christ, if you were up more than 2 touchdowns it was almost impossible to pass without getting an interception or run without fumbling the ball.
 
Cat in the Hat said:
Perfect example, yeah it is so maddening but at the same time you look back and think that shit was so fun.
Click to expand...

You had to put in a code in the console versions to turn off the rubberband AI. How backwards is that?
 
Not really the AI in motor storm is what makes it so intense and fun in single player. If it was easy then it wouldnt be motorstorm and not as intense as it is. Sure it can be kinda hard but its fun. In motorstorm atleast.
 
Mejilan said:
Personally, I think it's the worst kind of crutch. It rewards you when you suck, and punishes you for being skilled. To me, that's so completely backwards, I simply do NOT understand the philosophy.
Click to expand...


ever been last cause your friend red shelled you on a jump? Payback
 
stinger009 said:
NBA Jam was the worst..
Click to expand...

*Does magnificent dunk with 0.2 seconds left to go up by 2 points*

*Computer scores full-court 3 pointer ftw*

*Spends 3 days cleaning up the small controller pieces on the floor*
 
DemonSwordsman said:
Not really the AI in motor storm is what makes it so intense and fun in single player. If it was easy then it wouldnt be motorstorm and not as intense as it is. Sure it can be kinda hard but its fun. In motorstorm atleast.
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What does this have to do with being easy though? A game can be hard and not be rubberband central. It seems like some developers just can't code AI-- especially those working on sports/racing games.
 
Y2Kev said:
What does this have to do with being easy though? A game can be hard and not be rubberband central. It seems like some developers just can't code AI-- especially those working on sports/racing games.
Click to expand...

Programming AI is hard. Not much can be said beyond that.

AIs get unfair advantages because they NEED those unfair advantages in 95% of gaming applications. Doesn't make it a foolproof solution, especially if it's implemented horribly, but there you go.
 
Varna said:
Yes. It's retarded.

Kind of like level scaling in RPGs. It just makes it so it never feels like you are progressing.
Click to expand...
God, this is exactly it. Rubberband AI in racing games ruins them as level scaling does in RPGs. FFVIII is the only Final Fantasy game I dislike and it's for that reason. I also found Oblivion to be less enjoyable than Morrowind for the same reason.
And Mario Kart games.. well, they're fun sometimes. Mario Kart 64 is the absolute worst with Rubberband AI though.
 
World Series Baseball 2k2 for Dreamcast had the worst and most blatant rubber band AI I have ever seen. If you were up by alot of runs, the fucking PITCHERS would start hitting three run home runs off your ass. All the time.
 
ciaossu said:
God, this is exactly it. Rubberband AI in racing games ruins them as level scaling does in RPGs. FFVIII is the only Final Fantasy game I dislike and it's for that reason. I also found Oblivion to be less enjoyable than Morrowind for the same reason.
And Mario Kart games.. well, they're fun sometimes. Mario Kart 64 is the absolute worst with Rubberband AI though.
Click to expand...

Mario Kart Wii is also a bitch with this. I didn't have any problems with Double Dash or DS, but on the Wii it's like ~3 minutes of NOTHING, then last lap I'm ravaged by shells.
 
S1lentTwo said:
World Series Baseball 2k2 for Dreamcast had the worst and most blatant rubber band AI I have ever seen. If you were up by alot of runs, the fucking PITCHERS would start hitting three run home runs off your ass. All the time.
Click to expand...
No way :lol
 
Rubberband AI certainly does suck. I could see it being good in cases of extreme god like gaming(the wipeout pure example where a player in first would not be challenged at all) or for players doing horribly(when the player is very far behind the game could wait awhile, ie 10 seconds down in a racer let it slide back to 2 seconds then race normally again). In regular play situations I do not think it should be there, it hides skill and improvement.

Some of my experiences:
Wipeout Pure: The AI did not always boost off the line. A very good start in this game could put the player into first place. The problem was that if the player shed a tiny bit of speed the field would immediately trounce them moving faster than they ever would have in other cases. My pure experience was 3-2-1-go, boost to first place, take an unoptimal corner then get rammed, shot with 3 weapons, and end up multiple seconds behind 7th place. First place would sometimes be a worse time than a hard fought finish another time.

Wipeout HD: Elite AI seems to go 1.5x faster than the player ship. This difficulty is like the absence of rubberbanding or rubberbanding set to it's OMG the player is too far ahead at all times. This could be called perfection mode since the other craft seem beyond normal ship performance.
Weapons: Bottom positions get more quakes and turbos. This does not seem as bad as Mario Kart but it is there.

Gran Turismo: I've heard that the AI only drives at 98% throttle under most cases. I've also heard that if you get too far ahead(ie test track) the AI goes faster than is possible on it's setups to try to make it a race. Both of these did not ruin the game for me but I am not a super racer who could compete with sim level AI.
 
There's nothing more frustrating than when an opponent (AI or otherwise) unfairly catches up with you on the last lap when you've been racing perfect lines <> there's nothing more boring than a race where either you or your no.2 opponent is so out infront by the second lap the race has already been decided and it's just autopilot for the next x number of laps.
 
jman2050 said:
*Does magnificent dunk with 0.2 seconds left to go up by 2 points*

*Computer scores full-court 3 pointer ftw*

*Spends 3 days cleaning up the small controller pieces on the floor*
Click to expand...

Old Madden games were NASTY about that. Forget milking the clock with a 5 point lead, then stifling their O with a Nickel package; they'd relentlessly march downfield on 8 yard passes and score half the time.

Gran Turismo: I've heard that the AI only drives at 98% throttle under most cases. I've also heard that if you get too far ahead(ie test track) the AI goes faster than is possible on it's setups to try to make it a race. Both of these did not ruin the game for me but I am not a super racer who could compete with sim level AI.
Click to expand...

Now this really bites my ass; I souped up a car of that class, yet some stock is keeping up with me while trading paint? Hell naw.
 
Of course, none of these games touches Fzero GX's f'n legendary rubber-banding in Story mode.

The AI can beat you out of the gate if you have max accell., beat you on a straightaway if you have max top speed, make impossible corners, and of course race right past you in the middle of a boost.

Such fucking bullshit. And if it was a story-based mission, it didn't even matter what the "other" racers were doing, they'd all get the fuck out of the way so your rival could cheat up front.

Mario Kart for SNES/N64 had it pretty bad too, because you could see the AI drivers making up impossible gaps (by watching the map) if you sabotaged them. Especially if it was a driver just behind you in point standings. God forbid it was Mario or Luigi, as they could use starmen back to back to back to undo any ground they lost.
 
DemonSwordsman said:
Not really the AI in motor storm is what makes it so intense and fun in single player. If it was easy then it wouldnt be motorstorm and not as intense as it is. Sure it can be kinda hard but its fun. In motorstorm atleast.
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You, sir, are the reason we can't have nice things in life.

Unfortunately, you're representative of most of the dumbass casual players out there. Or at least developers assume you are.
 
Sho_Nuff82 said:
Of course, none of these games touches Fzero GX's f'n legendary rubber-banding in Story mode.

The AI can beat you out of the gate if you have max accell., beat you on a straightaway if you have max top speed, make impossible corners, and of course race right past you in the middle of a boost.

Such fucking bullshit. And if it was a story-based mission, it didn't even matter what the "other" racers were doing, they'd all get the fuck out of the way so your rival could cheat up front.

Mario Kart for SNES/N64 had it pretty bad too, because you could see the AI drivers making up impossible gaps (by watching the map) if you sabotaged them. Especially if it was a driver just behind you in point standings. God forbid it was Mario or Luigi, as they could use starmen back to back to back to undo any ground they lost.
Click to expand...

Yep :lol . Mission 7 I think it was? Whichever one was the "grand prix" race. Black shadow's machine suddenly became absolutely perfect in every way, and there is nothing you can do to stop him from cheating his way all the way to first place.

I think I ended up beating that one by restarting until I killed him as he tried to rocket his way past me at the very beginning of the race.
 
Grayman said:
Gran Turismo: I've heard that the AI only drives at 98% throttle under most cases. I've also heard that if you get too far ahead(ie test track) the AI goes faster than is possible on it's setups to try to make it a race. Both of these did not ruin the game for me but I am not a super racer who could compete with sim level AI.
Click to expand...

Really? I finished an endurance race like 10 laps ahead of 2nd place, and it amde me feel good, not dissapointed that it wasnt competitive.


Meanwhile, I cant play Mario kart Wii alone, its just an exercise in frustration.
 
Crash Team Racing has the best kart AI IMHO. It's balanced, fun, and the items are nowhere broken.
 
CHEERS!

I know alot of people seem to drool over Midnight Club LA but i really despised the rubberbanding in that game. it pissed me off to no end. i really WANTED to like that game too...

Rubberbanding must die.
 
Yeah, I haven't really noticed any rubberbanding in Gran Turismo (or Forza.) You may get some events where the majority of the field consists of Honda Odysseys and a single Ford GT, but there isn't rubberbanding. If you have a faster car and drive well, you should be able to pull away from your opponents.

Actual rubberbanding sucks, though. Ruined Motorstorm for me, and it certainly didn't make my MC:LA impressions more positive (though the boat handling and PS3 controller could've soured my experience from the start.)
 
Sho_Nuff82 said:
Of course, none of these games touches Fzero GX's f'n legendary rubber-banding in Story mode.

The AI can beat you out of the gate if you have max accell., beat you on a straightaway if you have max top speed, make impossible corners, and of course race right past you in the middle of a boost.

Such fucking bullshit. And if it was a story-based mission, it didn't even matter what the "other" racers were doing, they'd all get the fuck out of the way so your rival could cheat up front.

Mario Kart for SNES/N64 had it pretty bad too, because you could see the AI drivers making up impossible gaps (by watching the map) if you sabotaged them. Especially if it was a driver just behind you in point standings. God forbid it was Mario or Luigi, as they could use starmen back to back to back to undo any ground they lost.
Click to expand...

It is the king of rubberbanding. Followed up only by Mario Kart 64 where you could cheat using wall hops and gain 2 laps on the competition and watch then burn ass to catch up to you before you finished, absolutely impossible speed, and they would do it. Insane.
 
Next to Rubber band A.I. is the indestructible immovable cars like in Forza 2, where they can bang into you and cause you to spin out, but heaven forbid of you try to spin them out! Not only do you damage your car to shit but you wind up spinning yourself out as the A.I. keeps motoring by.
 
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