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Rumor: Dell Fires 3000 US Employees. Fact: Requests 5000 Visas For Foreign Workers
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Just_myles
Member
I'm conflicted and kind of annoyed. He mentions overlap but at what position? Why would they do so many h1b and green card applications?
My take is they should be highly capable in order to receive an h1B. I don't mirror the sentiment that they should make a specific salary but, they should be highly qualified in their field and not just be some kid out of university. I'm sorry, but we have people out here who are working just as hard and are trying to get it in.
At the same time, I work with some good people who have green cards/H1B and are highly highly experienced and a lot better than the people we had prior to their arrival that maybe were not as skilled and were citizens.
sheesh freakin tech.
My take is they should be highly capable in order to receive an h1B. I don't mirror the sentiment that they should make a specific salary but, they should be highly qualified in their field and not just be some kid out of university. I'm sorry, but we have people out here who are working just as hard and are trying to get it in.
At the same time, I work with some good people who have green cards/H1B and are highly highly experienced and a lot better than the people we had prior to their arrival that maybe were not as skilled and were citizens.
sheesh freakin tech.
who is that actually?
There is a glut of highly skilled workers in the US not having a job? News to me.
clearly mentions that there is an overlap in office positions - administrative, accounting, etc.
You dont get H1-B visa for accounting.
Led_Zeppelin
Member
Globalism ahoy! I am sure people love their interconnected multicultural societies now! Shu shu evil nationalism!
Well, if we are going to try to apply critical thinking to this story we might note that:
- The statistics are from 2014 & 2015. The acquisition occurred in October 2015. So it's likely most of the H1B applications were filed before it took place and there is not the causal relationship the OP is trying to trick you into believing.
- We don't know how many of the H1Bs were granted (although we do know that only 1/3 of H1B applications across all companies are approved).
- We don't know whether there is any truth to the layoffs.
- If there is truth to them, we don't know how many of those layed off are H1B holders.
But why bother straining your brain when you can just beat that populist drum about evil corporations and immigrants taking our jobs?
don't know if Dell is really replacing US employees with H1B workers, but it is clear that the system needs to be reformed.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/06/us/outsourcing-companies-dominate-h1b-visas.html?_r=0
I really doubt facilitating the hiring of cheap IT workers from India was the intention of the programme.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/06/us/outsourcing-companies-dominate-h1b-visas.html?_r=0
I really doubt facilitating the hiring of cheap IT workers from India was the intention of the programme.
Just_myles
Member
spwolf said:
In all fairness, I did ask which positions they were. I only glanced at the OP.
I would agree, you don't give h1-bs for secretaries and accountants.
Some of you have this very wrong.
Top Tech companies lobby for more H1-Bs because shitty IT companies and hotels often soak up more than HALF of the total H1-B for relatively low skill jobs.
Tech companies are paying competitively and VERY high salaries for these people, but the H1-B is 100% just two lotteries and little oversight with a small quota.
You want to actually address something, redesign how the visas are allocated. This wouldn't be an issue with better oversight and a simple points system based on salary and education, for example.
While I'm at it:
This post is disgusting.
Top Tech companies lobby for more H1-Bs because shitty IT companies and hotels often soak up more than HALF of the total H1-B for relatively low skill jobs.
Tech companies are paying competitively and VERY high salaries for these people, but the H1-B is 100% just two lotteries and little oversight with a small quota.
You want to actually address something, redesign how the visas are allocated. This wouldn't be an issue with better oversight and a simple points system based on salary and education, for example.
While I'm at it:
This post is disgusting.
As someone who has been a manager for 5+ years in the software industry, and hired 20+ people in that time, I think people are way oversimplifying the H1-B issue.
Let me walk you through our hiring process:
- We post a job offer. We're hiring software engineers, looking for a master's in either software or an engineering field related to what our software does. We have reasonable, though not top starting salaries. Usually starting is 80-85k, though we also have profit sharing and excellent benefits
- I read through resumes. I'm given resumes from our system. I can look through ones filtered for me by HR, filtered by algorithm (I set the parameters), or the raw feed of resumes
- I chose candidates, phone interview and interview. During this process I am not legally allowed to ask them about their nationality. HR asks if they're legally allowed to work in the US and that's it
I honestly don't care where people are from, and I've never been pressured to hire any person, but through this process 80-90% of the people I've hired are foreign, and the vast majority of them end up on H1-B visas.
The thing is, if I look at the raw feed of resumes, it's similarly skewed. The pool we're looking at is hugely biased toward immigrant workers.
Is this because our starting salary is too low? Maybe, but it's not crazy, we generally have pretty good raises (I started lower and was making over 100k in four years), and we've been profitable for the entire multiple decade history of the company, so we offer a fairly secure job (also we work 40 hour weeks).
Again, I'm sure there are plenty of abuses of the system, but every time H1-B is brought up, it seems like a good number of people just seem to think the whole system is a scam.
The truth is that a lot of tech companies desperately need it, but there are a number of crappy companies that soak up a ton of the visas every year. We need to redesign the system and show it towards high skill workers, not eliminate it.
As a follow up, it's truly weird that I'm not allowed to ask about nationality during an interview but then later when the person wants a green card, I have to prove an American worker couldn't do the job. Am I supposed to give preference to Americans or not (obviously this is rhetorical,i know by law I can't)? And furthermore, by the time the green card application comes along, the person has been a good employee for a number of years, so the idea of seeing if we can dump them for a new hire Americans is odd, to say the least.
Let me walk you through our hiring process:
- We post a job offer. We're hiring software engineers, looking for a master's in either software or an engineering field related to what our software does. We have reasonable, though not top starting salaries. Usually starting is 80-85k, though we also have profit sharing and excellent benefits
- I read through resumes. I'm given resumes from our system. I can look through ones filtered for me by HR, filtered by algorithm (I set the parameters), or the raw feed of resumes
- I chose candidates, phone interview and interview. During this process I am not legally allowed to ask them about their nationality. HR asks if they're legally allowed to work in the US and that's it
I honestly don't care where people are from, and I've never been pressured to hire any person, but through this process 80-90% of the people I've hired are foreign, and the vast majority of them end up on H1-B visas.
The thing is, if I look at the raw feed of resumes, it's similarly skewed. The pool we're looking at is hugely biased toward immigrant workers.
Is this because our starting salary is too low? Maybe, but it's not crazy, we generally have pretty good raises (I started lower and was making over 100k in four years), and we've been profitable for the entire multiple decade history of the company, so we offer a fairly secure job (also we work 40 hour weeks).
Again, I'm sure there are plenty of abuses of the system, but every time H1-B is brought up, it seems like a good number of people just seem to think the whole system is a scam.
The truth is that a lot of tech companies desperately need it, but there are a number of crappy companies that soak up a ton of the visas every year. We need to redesign the system and show it towards high skill workers, not eliminate it.
As a follow up, it's truly weird that I'm not allowed to ask about nationality during an interview but then later when the person wants a green card, I have to prove an American worker couldn't do the job. Am I supposed to give preference to Americans or not (obviously this is rhetorical,i know by law I can't)? And furthermore, by the time the green card application comes along, the person has been a good employee for a number of years, so the idea of seeing if we can dump them for a new hire Americans is odd, to say the least.
biggersmaller
Banned
Great insight and experience.
To respectfully counter, in my experience of working projects aimed at increasing operational efficiency at a Fortune 500 company - sadly the jobs being eaten up aren't the $80k+ roles requiring masters (though sometimes those), rather hundreds upon hundreds of lower tier tech help desk queue jobs at $45k-$65k.
As with many lower skilled gigs in many industries, the little guys are the first on the chopping black with many unable to gain the credentials to qualify for $80k work. H1-b seems to be easier to manage when hiring replacements at a tick of 20 new hire training class seats per week.
Thank you. As someone who's on H1B it's really frustrating to see how many Americans are ignorant on the issue. They think H1B and green card is being handed out like candies but in reality it's extremely difficult to get sponsor for a H1B and green card down the line by a company. H1B worker are also severely restricted in term of switching jobs and they have no safety net in case of lay off (basically you are out of status the day you stop working). The system needs to be rework for sure.
I don't disagree with any of this. I just worry that people hear H1-B and assume we're talking about some kind of scam run by tech companies. The truth is more complicated. Some (many?) companies abuse the system, but the general idea behind the system isn't bad, just that it's current implementation is not properly weighted (not that this is a minor issue).
As one final follow up, every year we deal with some number of people who don't get their visa/renewal, and we have to try and figure out how to keep them, jumping through a number of hoops. The whole thing is so silly sometimes.
Not to sound like Trump, but these companies applying for H1Bs saying there are no American workers are mostly full of BS, and here is a good case. There's plenty of Americans who can do the work, can be trained to do the work, and will do a good job. If Dell wants an all-Indian work force they should move to India and become an Indian company.
And yes, at the very least, a reasonable compromise would be that they have to pay H1B workers the same as American workers and offer American benefits (so they don't work these guys 100 hours when they'd work an American 50).
And yes, at the very least, a reasonable compromise would be that they have to pay H1B workers the same as American workers and offer American benefits (so they don't work these guys 100 hours when they'd work an American 50).
Not at all. Just because Trump says something doesn't mean it's automatically evil or wrong. (Fallacy of origins) He's a horrible human being and a fascist but on this one issue he makes some good points. Of course we know he's full of hot air and his own businesses engage in these sorts of shenanigans.
I'm not American, but I think i can appreciate the fact that the H1B program was intended for highly skilled workers -- and is still partially used that way -- but that original intent is drowned out by firms abusing the lottery system to bring in employees below market rates.
So I think the argument is that the bottom end of the IT market becomes increasingly difficult to break into because those many of jobs go to questionably qualified employees brought in by IT outsourcing firms. It's not that there aren't people to do these lower end jobs, there is just some combination of purposefully unrealistic pay/work experience/job expectations that makes domestic employees unlikely to apply. Employers who rely on H1B workers in general also can work them harder than an equivalent American because the threat of them jumping ship isn't there, and their continued employment is necessary to remain in the country.
As an aside, I read r/sysadmin because there's interesting discussions related to my work, but this topic comes up constantly, and the racism towards Indian people is barely tolerable. Wish the mods there would do more to control the racist undertones on ANY conversation around H1B.
So I think the argument is that the bottom end of the IT market becomes increasingly difficult to break into because those many of jobs go to questionably qualified employees brought in by IT outsourcing firms. It's not that there aren't people to do these lower end jobs, there is just some combination of purposefully unrealistic pay/work experience/job expectations that makes domestic employees unlikely to apply. Employers who rely on H1B workers in general also can work them harder than an equivalent American because the threat of them jumping ship isn't there, and their continued employment is necessary to remain in the country.
As an aside, I read r/sysadmin because there's interesting discussions related to my work, but this topic comes up constantly, and the racism towards Indian people is barely tolerable. Wish the mods there would do more to control the racist undertones on ANY conversation around H1B.
Iorv3th
Member
I have a friend that came over here in highschool on a visa and ended up going to college and got a job at a big tech company as an engineer. When he got hired I think he was making that much or more. But he had to get a work visa through them.
n64coder
Member
In my experience at my company, the H1B visas are mostly for foreigners who attended US universities and wanted to stay in the US after graduation. A recent one was for a person who was in our Hyderabad office and was willing to work in the US for awhile but he plans to go back to India eventually. I have not seen any abuse of the visa. The job market for software engineers is very competitive. We recently filled a position that was open for 9 months. The guy who accepted the position had 4 job offers to choose from.
About 8 years ago, we opened an offshore center in Hyderabad. About 10-15% of the engineering staff were let go. The money was used to fund the offshore center. Headcount wise on the engineering side, I would say that we're 50/50 US/India split. The fact is that for 1 US engineer, you could get 3-4 equivalents in India. So from management perspective, we were able to keep the same engineering budget but increase staffing so that we could do more products.
Prior to the offshore move, management was asked by investors/analysts why we weren't doing anything about R&D costs which were high compared to other software companies in our peer group.
The fact is that today it's a global economy and one must adjust.
About 8 years ago, we opened an offshore center in Hyderabad. About 10-15% of the engineering staff were let go. The money was used to fund the offshore center. Headcount wise on the engineering side, I would say that we're 50/50 US/India split. The fact is that for 1 US engineer, you could get 3-4 equivalents in India. So from management perspective, we were able to keep the same engineering budget but increase staffing so that we could do more products.
Prior to the offshore move, management was asked by investors/analysts why we weren't doing anything about R&D costs which were high compared to other software companies in our peer group.
The fact is that today it's a global economy and one must adjust.
tearsintherain
Member
Most of the "solutions" posted here wouldn't work, because the companies work this way:
1. find a consulting/contract companies and tell them what exactly you want - ie 1000 tech support people who can handle helpdesk/phone calls 24x7 - and let them submit bids.
2. play them against each other until you get the lowest bid
3. implement the contract with the consultant company, give them notice how many subcontractors to bring on board and when and negotiate the details
4. once new subcontractors come online, notify your employees you are going to fire them
5. have your employees train the subcontractors
6. spend $1m on your executive christmas party, since you just saved $50m/year
There is very little legal recourse here, because all the positions that were formerly full time, salaried positions are now contracted out. You can just shrug and say "well, WE didn't hire people on H1B visas, it was AAA-IT Consulting and they just are a vendor for us".
Since its a contract, its much easier to manage, grow, and shrink as demand requires and your investors will be much happier since your fixed costs will be lower, you don't need to worry about pesky stuff like healthcare premiums or office space or payroll taxes going up yearly.
Win/win for everyone... except American workers.
1. find a consulting/contract companies and tell them what exactly you want - ie 1000 tech support people who can handle helpdesk/phone calls 24x7 - and let them submit bids.
2. play them against each other until you get the lowest bid
3. implement the contract with the consultant company, give them notice how many subcontractors to bring on board and when and negotiate the details
4. once new subcontractors come online, notify your employees you are going to fire them
5. have your employees train the subcontractors
6. spend $1m on your executive christmas party, since you just saved $50m/year
There is very little legal recourse here, because all the positions that were formerly full time, salaried positions are now contracted out. You can just shrug and say "well, WE didn't hire people on H1B visas, it was AAA-IT Consulting and they just are a vendor for us".
Since its a contract, its much easier to manage, grow, and shrink as demand requires and your investors will be much happier since your fixed costs will be lower, you don't need to worry about pesky stuff like healthcare premiums or office space or payroll taxes going up yearly.
Win/win for everyone... except American workers.
Slight FTFY.
FaintDeftone
Junior Member
Well that explains why our whole team of Dell business reps went bye bye all of a sudden at work.
andrerobot
Member
Wtf is this bullshit.
H-1B visas are given to specialized occupations, not helpdesk jobs. Having a bachelor's degree or equivalent is a requirement for getting an H-1B.
I think you are getting confused with offshoring, which is something companies do when they want to get cheap helpdesk labor.
this so much. The problem is not the bigger tech companies who for the most part hire talent at prevailing wages. It is the goddamn IT staffing companies who misuse the system. I don't see why anyone needs to hire IT workers from India on H1-Bs.
This is amazing.
Also hopefully the Senate looks into more than the tech sector. Out-sourcing needs to stop, full stop. You can't expect ANYONE to make a career from some industries at this point.
That is part of the reason I marked it as rumor. I think there is discussion worth having but the original headline is a bit sketchy without having some skepticism over it.
Lol, the definition of "Specialization" and the salary floor is laughable.
This is the reality.
Lagspike_exe
Member
The layoffs are part of the M&A deal. I highly doubt they were hiring foreign workers in 2014 and 2015 in the preparation of the deal. That is not a known corporate practice.
Bear in mind that India's competitiveness will also grow so a part of the supply will be met with internal demand. Also, countries like China or Russia could also begin importing highly skilled workers so the entire flow won't go to the US.
Bear in mind that India's competitiveness will also grow so a part of the supply will be met with internal demand. Also, countries like China or Russia could also begin importing highly skilled workers so the entire flow won't go to the US.
H1-B's significantly increase the wages of cities that they're introduced into: https://www.nber.org/papers/w20093.pdf
Introducing high minimum wages for them would hurt everyone.
They only cheap in relations with how much you need to pay a local with the same kind of skill.
But they are still getting paid north of 100k annually if they work in one of the big companies
It's in full-force with free movement in EU, though. It's cheaper to use eastern Europe workers for a lot of jobs. One of the reasons UK wanted out, actually.
Granted, there's some limits, but whether you can enforce them isn't a given sometimes...
Dreams-Visions
Member
interesting conversation in here.
Necromanti
Member
Since 99% of the fuckery seems to be going on in the tech industry, have any future stipulations just apply to them, please.
But Trump's companies do the same shit. His campaign has been more focused on the Muslims and Mexicans who are all terrorists and criminals respectively. I don't think he really has a problem with these types of visas and if he says he does, he's lying when you look at how his businesses operate.
The thread pisses me off every time I see it and it does so mostly because I understand both sides.
Companies abuse the crap out of the visa worker system. And it makes sense.
-Why the hell would you increase wages to make your company more attractive for prospective applicants if you can just resort to visa workers?
-Why on god's green earth would you want a domestic worker when you can have a foreign worker willing and far, far more inclined to go the extra mile (effort/attendance/motivation/holidays&overtime)?
-Why would you want a domestic worker that will be unhappy with his wage now or eventually when you can have a foreign worker ecstatic about what he's earning?
-Why train or promote anyone when you can get a foreign worker?
And I've been there to see all those and more happen. It doesn't take that many neurons to understand why a companies would abuse the system. It's so convenient.
Companies abuse the crap out of the visa worker system. And it makes sense.
-Why the hell would you increase wages to make your company more attractive for prospective applicants if you can just resort to visa workers?
-Why on god's green earth would you want a domestic worker when you can have a foreign worker willing and far, far more inclined to go the extra mile (effort/attendance/motivation/holidays&overtime)?
-Why would you want a domestic worker that will be unhappy with his wage now or eventually when you can have a foreign worker ecstatic about what he's earning?
-Why train or promote anyone when you can get a foreign worker?
And I've been there to see all those and more happen. It doesn't take that many neurons to understand why a companies would abuse the system. It's so convenient.
I laughed because it's true. It's actually worse but you're not that far off.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
Outsourcing is a key component of the globalized world view. To say outsourcing needs to stop, is to denounce globalization entirely. / Mistreating of foreign workers, or giving them sub standard treatment is unacceptable and is akin to sweatship abuse. It goes without saying. Fortunately I've never seen or experienced this treatment of foreign workers in any company I've been with. They've come in as part time workers, consultants and bring in a valueable experience as a team effort.
It strikes me as a bit hypocritical to see people who make fun of low skilled ignorant workers who get angry at mexicans(or Eastern european workers for Europe) taking their jobs, and basically telling them to go fuck themselves, but when their own higher educational career becomes under scrutiny, suddenly they themselves become openly hostile to the idea that it is water under the bridge that foreign workers are putting the heat on domestic workers.
It has been known for a very long time, that India would boom in the tech sector and that this would influence the competitive work force all over the world due to the quality of education being provided. The argument then, and still is- That western government would need to invest and increase the output in the quality of education as a means to protect their citizens and their ability to get a stable career.
Clearly that has not happened in some fields, and that lack of perspective and preparing for something that was coming- Makes it hard to want sympathize with laws that try to stifle the economic power dynamics.
If a Indian worker with a STEM degree can do the same quality of work for less than the domestic worker, the theory of capitalism says that the domestic worker should go fuck himself or "get gud".
You cannot blame the Indian worker to seek opportunity, or for the company who look at their bottom line to do what it must to maximize revenue. Corporations are not in the business of giving a shit about people. They are institutions designed around making revenue with regards to their profits.
Everything else is on the government and the politicians who have failed to properly vet their workforce for the 21th century globalized problems.
And really, it is crying over spilled milk, because these foreign workers will soon be axed, by automation, via software and robotics, and what takes 5000 people will be able to be done by 500, and so it goes.
Western socities needs to take their education and continued training to whole new levels. That's how it's supposed to work. third world countries and emerging countries get caught up to speed, and that incentivizes first world countries to up their game. It seems redactive to me, to try and "stop outsourcing". That is not going to happen, because outsourcing is not the problem.
An American STEM worker needs to be better than the indian. An American company should be able to look at it, and the unique skillset they require and decide that some things will be better handled by someone with a specific skillset.
The other thing to keep in mind, is that many people seek work visas in other countries to get outside world view. It is commonly believed that foreign experience is a massive asset and shows maturity, independence, experience and a larger level of understanding. If you can navigate a foreign country and be competitive with the locals who have all the advantages, know the culture, know the customs, know the language, then you've showed yourself to be competent, and that reflects in the hiring process.
You have people who come out of school having never been pushed or being able to show independent action or have drive to self-motivate or make things happen.
Lastly, we also have to remember that a degree is less assured to provide a made-life than it used to be. So many more are being educated now that a bachelor degree is worth what a highschool diploma was worth 30 years ago, and vice versa.
That was proped to happen, and the reality is just that; there is less opportunity and assured wealth for middle class western people. It gets heat from everywhere and this is the reality they live in. There will be less prosperity because the competitive cake are being devided into more chunks going out to more people, and that isn't unfair. It sucks having less than your parents had, but this is part of what it means to living in a progressive world.
The fruits of Indias labor, of what they said would happen in the future when I was a kid are happening now. Millions of indians are getting expertise all over the world, and many are going to come home with insight and perspective on how to start their own brands and massive corporations.
For these reasons, even though it really sucks, I cannot support anti-Visa laws. On the question of minimum wage and fair compensation, everyone should have a fair compensation, but that is a separate discussion. But I'll just say that it irrks me, if some people only find the urge to increase the minimum wage to stop foreign workers. That seems like that misses the point of bringing up everyone in society.
I've had the pleasure of training Indian and Pakistani workers at a Fortune 500 company who came out to be trained, and then re-trained 2000 workers at home. That was in administrative SAP protocols, and I was quite surprised by their approach. I've never seen people work so hard. It was made clear to me that these 5 people I had to train, might not have seemed like having a special education or degree by western standards, but by Indian/Pakistani standards they would be really high up as being perceived at having a stellar career. They had gotten to where they where by competing by fifty or maybe even a hundred times as many people as a western worker.
Westerns have to take responsibility and meet the competitive global workforce in a way that highlights and reflects well on the globalized scale. Its just a transition period. Eventually, jobs for westernes will go to India and China, and the more people who are brought into the globalized circle of consumerism will help yield jobs that require a global expertise. This is just a transition period. Tech has until now been a western monopoly because nobody had the expertise besides the western powers. Now the cat is out of the bag, and it is not fair to be mad at Indians or chinese workers. It's the government who needs to invest heavily in education, but that hasn't happened in a lot of the west because it was not perceived as being a big issue voters would care about. And many popular politicians just not championing these ideas that voters don't care a lot about, until it's too late.
This have been known and should be no surprise.
It strikes me as a bit hypocritical to see people who make fun of low skilled ignorant workers who get angry at mexicans(or Eastern european workers for Europe) taking their jobs, and basically telling them to go fuck themselves, but when their own higher educational career becomes under scrutiny, suddenly they themselves become openly hostile to the idea that it is water under the bridge that foreign workers are putting the heat on domestic workers.
It has been known for a very long time, that India would boom in the tech sector and that this would influence the competitive work force all over the world due to the quality of education being provided. The argument then, and still is- That western government would need to invest and increase the output in the quality of education as a means to protect their citizens and their ability to get a stable career.
Clearly that has not happened in some fields, and that lack of perspective and preparing for something that was coming- Makes it hard to want sympathize with laws that try to stifle the economic power dynamics.
If a Indian worker with a STEM degree can do the same quality of work for less than the domestic worker, the theory of capitalism says that the domestic worker should go fuck himself or "get gud".
You cannot blame the Indian worker to seek opportunity, or for the company who look at their bottom line to do what it must to maximize revenue. Corporations are not in the business of giving a shit about people. They are institutions designed around making revenue with regards to their profits.
Everything else is on the government and the politicians who have failed to properly vet their workforce for the 21th century globalized problems.
And really, it is crying over spilled milk, because these foreign workers will soon be axed, by automation, via software and robotics, and what takes 5000 people will be able to be done by 500, and so it goes.
Western socities needs to take their education and continued training to whole new levels. That's how it's supposed to work. third world countries and emerging countries get caught up to speed, and that incentivizes first world countries to up their game. It seems redactive to me, to try and "stop outsourcing". That is not going to happen, because outsourcing is not the problem.
An American STEM worker needs to be better than the indian. An American company should be able to look at it, and the unique skillset they require and decide that some things will be better handled by someone with a specific skillset.
The other thing to keep in mind, is that many people seek work visas in other countries to get outside world view. It is commonly believed that foreign experience is a massive asset and shows maturity, independence, experience and a larger level of understanding. If you can navigate a foreign country and be competitive with the locals who have all the advantages, know the culture, know the customs, know the language, then you've showed yourself to be competent, and that reflects in the hiring process.
You have people who come out of school having never been pushed or being able to show independent action or have drive to self-motivate or make things happen.
Lastly, we also have to remember that a degree is less assured to provide a made-life than it used to be. So many more are being educated now that a bachelor degree is worth what a highschool diploma was worth 30 years ago, and vice versa.
That was proped to happen, and the reality is just that; there is less opportunity and assured wealth for middle class western people. It gets heat from everywhere and this is the reality they live in. There will be less prosperity because the competitive cake are being devided into more chunks going out to more people, and that isn't unfair. It sucks having less than your parents had, but this is part of what it means to living in a progressive world.
The fruits of Indias labor, of what they said would happen in the future when I was a kid are happening now. Millions of indians are getting expertise all over the world, and many are going to come home with insight and perspective on how to start their own brands and massive corporations.
For these reasons, even though it really sucks, I cannot support anti-Visa laws. On the question of minimum wage and fair compensation, everyone should have a fair compensation, but that is a separate discussion. But I'll just say that it irrks me, if some people only find the urge to increase the minimum wage to stop foreign workers. That seems like that misses the point of bringing up everyone in society.
I've had the pleasure of training Indian and Pakistani workers at a Fortune 500 company who came out to be trained, and then re-trained 2000 workers at home. That was in administrative SAP protocols, and I was quite surprised by their approach. I've never seen people work so hard. It was made clear to me that these 5 people I had to train, might not have seemed like having a special education or degree by western standards, but by Indian/Pakistani standards they would be really high up as being perceived at having a stellar career. They had gotten to where they where by competing by fifty or maybe even a hundred times as many people as a western worker.
Westerns have to take responsibility and meet the competitive global workforce in a way that highlights and reflects well on the globalized scale. Its just a transition period. Eventually, jobs for westernes will go to India and China, and the more people who are brought into the globalized circle of consumerism will help yield jobs that require a global expertise. This is just a transition period. Tech has until now been a western monopoly because nobody had the expertise besides the western powers. Now the cat is out of the bag, and it is not fair to be mad at Indians or chinese workers. It's the government who needs to invest heavily in education, but that hasn't happened in a lot of the west because it was not perceived as being a big issue voters would care about. And many popular politicians just not championing these ideas that voters don't care a lot about, until it's too late.
This have been known and should be no surprise.
Hopefully further open borders, given the positive impact they have on wages, employment and tax revenue.
https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/jep.25.3.83
Dropping all currently existing restrictions on capital gives gains of about 3-4% to global GDP. Dropping all restrictions on labour gives gains of about 150% of global GDP.
Things like these are the exact reason why people are against free trade despite the massively positive impacts it has. The benefits are diffuse and hard to see, while the impacts are concentrated and highly visible.
Paracelsus
Member
The point of a race to the bottom is that there is no bottom, you can always start digging.
Simpsons have a picture and an episode for everything: what should happen is Kiss, Kiss, Bang Bangalore, instead we have them bringing third world wages in the first world and telling people who know better to get an even better education or to stop being lazy.
Simpsons have a picture and an episode for everything: what should happen is Kiss, Kiss, Bang Bangalore, instead we have them bringing third world wages in the first world and telling people who know better to get an even better education or to stop being lazy.
You'd save yourself so much trouble if you just hired American citizens. They exist for these roles, pay them fair and you don't have to go through this bullshit.
Mr. Giggles
Member
H1-B visas aren't easy to get. I'm doubtful they're bringing in cheap unskilled labour from overseas for all those positions..
However, it's bullshit when you already have people in that position already and remove them, I mean, it's one thing to need to bring in someone because there isn't anyone else for that position in local markets but this feels more of the former
However, it's bullshit when you already have people in that position already and remove them, I mean, it's one thing to need to bring in someone because there isn't anyone else for that position in local markets but this feels more of the former
PdotMichael
Banned
The typical cost saving measure of hiring foreign engineers to replace business staff and helpdesk folks!
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